Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chaos_Kitten 08-11-05, 10:25 AM	At some point in the future I'm going to playing the Age of Worms campaign set in Eberron. My character will be a half-elf bard/fighter going into bladesinger. (I know what you're thinking. Wizard would be a better choice, but you'd have to understand my absolute hate of preparing spells. Besides I like getting a better base attack, better saves and more hit points of the bard. I also won't have to burn so many skill points for requirements.) A little backstory might help. Here's the cliffs notes version. She's from Aundair. She died and her wizard lover tried to bring her back the only way he knew how. He created a simulacrum of her, but since he's only seventh level (Pretty high for Eberron but not high enough for that spell.) he had to cast it from a scroll. Something went wrong and she was created as her first level, pre corrupted self. Neither of them were what would call good aligned when they were together. She freaked out, fled from him, and is hiding out in the starting town. Wow. I can never say anything concisely. Could you please inspect this build? I would love comments, criticisms and advise. 1st: bard (Dodge, Combat Casting) (Second feat courtesy of frail flaw) 2nd: Bard1/Swashbuckler1 (Weapon Finesse) 3rd: Bard2/Swashbuckler1 (Weapon Focus: Rapier) 4th: Bard2/Swashbuckler2 5th: Bard2/Swashbuckler3 (Insightful Strike) 6th: Bard2/Swashbuckler3/Half Elf Paragon1 (Combat Expertise, Practiced Spellcaster) 7th: Bard2/Swashbuckler3/Half elf Paragon2 8th: Bard2/Swashbuckler3/Half Elf Paragon3 9th: Bard2/Swashbuckler3/Half elf Paragon3/Bladesinger1 (Eschew Material) Ability Scores (By 9th level): Str 14, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 16, Wis11, Cha 16 Am I too far off base? Please be brutal, but not too brutal because I sniffled easily. Thanks in advance.
Lord Zeb 08-11-05, 10:59 AM	Actually sounds like a cool backstory... with a bard caster level of 3 before bladesinger, is practiced spellcaster really worth it though? I think Song of the Heart would serve better, so that you can at least get +2 out of your inspire courage (+3 with the Inspirational Boost spell) ... not shabby for a low-bard level build. You'll only be doing it 2x a day, but still helps out for a melee oriented character as you describe.
Chaos_Kitten 08-11-05, 11:23 AM	Thanks. I like backstories that are unusual without being your standard, "I saw my fiancee, parents and entire village killed and eaten by a band of orcs. So now I'm out for vengance." I want the bard levels so I can have fun buff spells like heroism. I've been debating dropping the half elf paragon or trading in swashbuckler for fighter levels. I do like the inciteful strike. I'm torn about losing it.
rilem 08-11-05, 11:30 AM	The chief problem with bladesinger is that it kind of bites (the Complete Arcane one does, anyway — the Races of Faerun version, also 3.5, is better even though it doesn't progress spellcasting but has its own spell list). If you're sold on Bladesinger, the build is OK, but you're not much of a bard — and really never will be. Going full bladesinger, you'll get 3rd level spells at level 18 — 4th level by level 20, if you swing back to bard afterward. And your skills, bardic music, etc. will all suffer. What do you like about Bladesinger? We might be able to come up with an alternative. I agree, practiced caster isn't worth it.
Aramas 08-11-05, 11:31 AM	I would change out Weapon Focus and Combat Casting before dropping Practiced Spellcaster. Skill Focus (Concentration) is a better choice than Combat Casting because it gives you a +3 all the time rather than a +4 for one specific use of the skill. Unless those feats are required as pre-req's for something... I don't have my books on me.
Chaos_Kitten 08-11-05, 11:40 AM	I would change out Weapon Focus and Combat Casting before dropping Practiced Spellcaster. Skill Focus (Concentration) is a better choice than Combat Casting because it gives you a +3 all the time rather than a +4 for one specific use of the skill. Unless those feats are required as pre-req's for something... I don't have my books on me. Those two feats are indeed requirements for the class. So I can't give them up unless I choose another path. I only picked Practiced Spellcaster to make sure he rbuff spells last long enough to get the job done.
rilem 08-11-05, 11:43 AM	Both are required for bladesinger. P. Caster is worth more than Eschew Materials, I think.
Chaos_Kitten 08-11-05, 11:44 AM	The chief problem with bladesinger is that it kind of bites (the Complete Arcane one does, anyway — the Races of Faerun version, also 3.5, is better even though it doesn't progress spellcasting but has its own spell list). If you're sold on Bladesinger, the build is OK, but you're not much of a bard — and really never will be. Going full bladesinger, you'll get 3rd level spells at level 18 — 4th level by level 20, if you swing back to bard afterward. And your skills, bardic music, etc. will all suffer. What do you like about Bladesinger? We might be able to come up with an alternative. I agree, practiced caster isn't worth it. I want to play a fighter augmented by arcane spells. I like the flavor of the Bladesinger. It just sounds kind of exotic to me. I tend to pick prestige classes on what pique my interest rather than what would be the most dangerous. Bardic abilities don't matter to me either. I want it for the spells, decent base attack and hitpoints. Anything else, like inspiring everyone, are just fringe benefits. Plus I don't have to prepare spell!! :D :D :D
Lord Zeb 08-11-05, 11:59 AM	How about something slightly different (less feat focused too). Bard 8 / Fighter 2 / Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) 10 You mentioned coming from Aundair, maybe in the past life, the PC was a KP. Cool bard stuff (don't discount inspire courage ;)), good buff spells, and BAB +18 at lvl 20 (hot diggity) (spells as 17 level bard to boot). :cool:
rilem 08-11-05, 01:12 PM	Knight Phantom has the requisite spooky quotient, too. A straight bard/KP isn't best (mixing in sublime chord is better) but is doable.
Lord Zeb 08-11-05, 01:19 PM	Knight Phantom has the requisite spooky quotient, too. A straight bard/KP isn't best (mixing in sublime chord is better) but is doable. Yep no argument here ;) Loooove that SC, but for a "Fighter with some spells", figured keep it simple. Chaos-Kitten, your thoughts?
Kurama Youko 08-11-05, 01:34 PM	I do not recommend the races of faerun version namely because it is a 3.0 class that has been updated, also it requires spellcasting to enter only give you a different spell-list and caster level, even after finishing the class prior to going epic you are only a 10th lv caster at best with no substantial way of changing that. I think Fighter 2/Bard 4/Bladesinger 9/Eldritch Knight 5 This will give you just enough feats to qualify for Bladesinger. Your end result is pretty much the bare skinny of what the bladesinger embodies but not much more. Your BAB is a grand total of 19, your base saves are all strong suprisingly. Your average hit points before con are mediocre at best but with access to 5th lv bard spells you'll be okay for the most part. outside of the 4 feats needed for bladesinger you'll have 6 extra feats over the course of your progression to play with. Snow Flake War Dance, Extra Bardic Music are pretty much top of the list I think. This is also something that came to mind since you brought up Bardic Bladesingers, which is something i once thought about to a while back. Prehapes Fighter 2/Bard 4/Bladesinger 10/Seeker of the Song 4. this one is less intone with spellcasting but still gives access to the mid lv bardic spells, coupled with practiced spellcaster to make sure those spells have a decent potency it's not to bad and not to great either. I do love the flavor of a fighter type who combinds Martial Prowess, Some spellcasting and Additional Musical abilities. BAB 19, 2 good saves, access to 3rd lv bard spells, 8 bardic music uses per day, mediocer hp, bonus to saves and ac. oh the only reason im not mentioning more levels of another or different prestige class is because you seem to have expressed a desire to be a bladesinger first and foremost, nothing wrong with that just trying to aim to please. :)
Mattastrophic 08-11-05, 02:54 PM	Looking this over, I do like what you've got so far, especially those ability scores. I don't know the Half-Elf Paragon very well, but I'm thinkin you can't go wrong with Bard3/Swashbuckler3/Bladesinger. Another idea is to drop the Swashbuckler and just go Bard7/Bladesinger, which you can do with that extra feat slot from the flaw.
Chaos_Kitten 08-11-05, 11:11 PM	Yep no argument here ;) Loooove that SC, but for a "Fighter with some spells", figured keep it simple. Chaos-Kitten, your thoughts? Sorry. Work dragged me far away. I hadn't thought too much about the knight phantom. I was worried about the the noble calvary aspect with her kind of background. I just keep forgetting Eberron is a very gray world. Chock full of evil guys getting power from lawful good sources. If I went that route then I certainly wouldn't have to worry about intelligence nearly as much. I'd also have room for lots of other fun, flashy feats. This gives me a lot to think on.
Chaos_Kitten 08-11-05, 11:16 PM	Looking this over, I do like what you've got so far, especially those ability scores. I don't know the Half-Elf Paragon very well, but I'm thinkin you can't go wrong with Bard3/Swashbuckler3/Bladesinger. Another idea is to drop the Swashbuckler and just go Bard7/Bladesinger, which you can do with that extra feat slot from the flaw. Half Elf paragon gives you a bonus feat, bonuses to spot and search go up to +2 to match a full elf, and a +2 ability boost to the stat if your choice. There is the ability to also take either elf paragon or human paragon levels. There's a caster level in there. Something else too, but I'm forgetting what it is.
Kessalin Talira 08-11-05, 11:50 PM	As far as the theme of the class goes, the Races of Faerun bladesinger is above and beyond the Complete Warrior version. For the self-buffing fighter, it's really hard to beat. The separate spell list is a hindrance, but it contains all of the essential buff spells from levels 1-4. Song of Celerity on the CW version is worthless in comparison, and there are no bonus feats given to offset the loss from fighter. The bonus feats the Races of Faerun bladesinger gets are actually worth taking in most cases. Considering it's for an Eberron game, I wouldn't be surprised if the DM said you can't take the RoF bladesinger. If he disallows it, the Tome & Blood web enhanced bladesinger is virtually identical, without the extra spellcasting kick the RoF version gets. If you're set on bladesinger, I would at least read over the T&B web enhancement. There's so much more flavor in that one than the waste of page space that is the CW bladesinger.
rilem 08-12-05, 12:00 AM	I agree, the speed at which an RoF Bladesinger could self-buff was really nice. And Races of Faerun is 3.5 — check the small type at the start of the book. Granted, it has been updated, and for an Eberron campaign the Comp. Warrior version is probably more kosher.
Kurama Youko 08-12-05, 12:57 AM	Races of Faerun is not 3.5, if it was they would not have updated it in the web enchancement for players guide to faerun. Speed in which it is self buffing is better? Excuse me unless im missing something is it granting you additional standard actions are you just being mislead by how song of clerity works? Um, considering that wizards are more likely bladesingers with their high int how is combat expertise not helpping them? how is weapon focus not helpping them? how is combat casting not helpping them? The original bladesinger was not restricted to buff spells thats why the races of faerun version and the tome and blood version were so crappy anyone know played a bladesinger prior to 3rd edition knew that one of the things that made a bladesinger great was not only their superb fighting abilities, and special manuver ability, but the fact that they were pretty much able body spellcasters who could flip over you and drop fireball on your head and clear the distance of the explosion. why would i just wanna limit myself to adding +4 dex or con, or str and use run away spells like expedious retreat? No im sorry even with a bard spell-list the fact that a reasonably made bladesinger bard, say like the one i pointed out above would still have a better spell list comprised of spells that the player knows will be most effective with their play style. im also looking at the fact you have to spend another feat to get into the faerun version, still spell, another feat which wont be used all that often considering your small list, and limited spells per day, spells known. The CW version may not give you infinite quicken spell but when you really look at the spells you have infinite quicken spell with its not really all that great, unless your telling me every round of every combat you spending a free action casting another buff, i think'd you'd be burnt out somewhere near the end of the 2nd encounter of the day, lets not forget here you still have to prepare thse spells in advance. In this situation she using the a bard, the bards spell list comprises some of the best buffing spells in the game as well as utility spells. Something that the Faerun Bladesinger just doesnt bring to the table, with her bard spell list she also has higher level spells even after considering the 1/2 spell progression from bladesinger CW version, as well as more spells per day. So she'd only quicken 2 spells a day, thats 2 spells quicken that she wouldnt have been able to quicken in the first place other wise all from her more versitile bard spell list. If your gonna be a power attack long sword/rapier swinging elf then yeah go for the faerun version because honestly thats all it just about has in my opinion a optimized wizard fighter bladesinger will still rule you. however she is a bard bladesinger seeing how the bard spell-list is hills better than the bladesingers spell-list its her choice.
catharz 08-12-05, 02:10 AM	Races of Faerun is not 3.5, if it was they would not have updated it in the web enchancement for players guide to faerun. It is rather difficult to argue with such an plain statement as "Races of Faerun is not 3.5," but I'll do my best... Look at page 3 of Races of faerun. Second header ("What you need to play"), third paragraph. Because I doubt you actually own the book you are maligning, I'll make it plain to you: Races of Faerun also complies with the revised Player's Hand-book, DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide, and Monster Manual. And the only Races of Faerun Web Enhancement I can find is thus: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030328c So I am pleased to say that you have been misinformed. ... As for the all-important character, for the time being I will assume that Bladesinger and spontanious spellcasting are integral to the concept, while Bard is not... So instead of Bard, take Sorcerer. Because if you're only taking two levels anyway, the loss is minute. And the spellcasting gains are actually signifigant.
Kessalin Talira 08-12-05, 06:02 AM	Races of Faerun is not 3.5, if it was they would not have updated it in the web enchancement for players guide to faerun.Races of Faerun isn't completely 3.5, but it is, for the most part. It was one of those crossover books where some things are 3.0 and some are 3.5. If you want to nitpick what parts are 3.0 and what are 3.5, go ahead. When you're done, do the same thing with Champions of Ruin. It's the same way in at least a couple of places. Speed in which it is self buffing is better? Excuse me unless im missing something is it granting you additional standard actions are you just being mislead by how song of clerity works?Considering that a quickened spell is effectively another standard action that you don't have to take, it pretty much is granting you extra standard actions, yes. When a character can full attack and still work up buff spells, that's a pretty good deal. Um, considering that wizards are more likely bladesingers with their high int how is combat expertise not helpping them? how is weapon focus not helpping them? how is combat casting not helpping them? The original bladesinger was not restricted to buff spells thats why the races of faerun version and the tome and blood version were so crappy anyone know played a bladesinger prior to 3rd edition knew that one of the things that made a bladesinger great was not only their superb fighting abilities, and special manuver ability, but the fact that they were pretty much able body spellcasters who could flip over you and drop fireball on your head and clear the distance of the explosion. why would i just wanna limit myself to adding +4 dex or con, or str and use run away spells like expedious retreat? No im sorry even with a bard spell-list the fact that a reasonably made bladesinger bard, say like the one i pointed out above would still have a better spell list comprised of spells that the player knows will be most effective with their play style.The original bladesinger wasn't restricted to buff spells, you're right. Neither is the Races of Faerun bladesinger. Read Song of Celerity carefully in the RoF version, then read it in the T&B Web Enhancement. T&B says song of celerity works on any bladesinger spell, while RoF works with any arcane spell. Why would you limit yourself? Probably because the bladesinger isn't focused on being a wizard with a sword. It's about using magic to make themselves better fighters. There's a subtle difference. Bards might make decent bladesingers. I've never had the urge to try it, so I can't say for sure. im also looking at the fact you have to spend another feat to get into the faerun version, still spell, another feat which wont be used all that often considering your small list, and limited spells per day, spells known. The CW version may not give you infinite quicken spell but when you really look at the spells you have infinite quicken spell with its not really all that great, unless your telling me every round of every combat you spending a free action casting another buff, i think'd you'd be burnt out somewhere near the end of the 2nd encounter of the day, lets not forget here you still have to prepare thse spells in advance.I will agree with you that Still Spell isn't worth much on the previous versions of the bladesinger. The nice thing about song of celerity is that if you're in a position to take a full attack, and you have a spell you want to cast on yourself, you don't have to break off the attack to do it, unlike the CW version. So it comes down to either being in combat and still being able to buff yourself, or not being in combat buffing. Either way, the spells are still cast, regardless if you're swinging your sword or not. On top of all that, once the buff spells are in place, you've got True Strike prepared several times, and that will give you, on average, another successful attack every round you cast it. In this situation she using the a bard, the bards spell list comprises some of the best buffing spells in the game as well as utility spells. Something that the Faerun Bladesinger just doesnt bring to the table, with her bard spell list she also has higher level spells even after considering the 1/2 spell progression from bladesinger CW version, as well as more spells per day. So she'd only quicken 2 spells a day, thats 2 spells quicken that she wouldnt have been able to quicken in the first place other wise all from her more versitile bard spell list.And that last sentence is a good thing, how? Especially in light of the fact that the RoF bladesinger allows a bard bladesinger to quicken a bard spell every round it takes a full attack? In terms of how effective song of celerity is, regardless of caster class used to enter Bladesinger, the CW version will never compare to the RoF. If your gonna be a power attack long sword/rapier swinging elf then yeah go for the faerun version because honestly thats all it just about has in my opinion a optimized wizard fighter bladesinger will still rule you. however she is a bard bladesinger seeing how the bard spell-list is hills better than the bladesingers spell-list its her choice.I have an optimized (at the time it was created) wizard/fighter bladesinger. I deal comparable damage to a straight fighter of my level, and I don't even have power attack. I have true strike multiple times and that gives me, as I said, an average of an extra successful attack every round I cast one, that a fighter doesn't get. You're right, it's the OP's choice, for the most part, what bladesinger gets used. The RoF bladesinger prepares spells, while the CW version doesn't, assuming a spontaneous caster class used for entry. Because spontaneous spellcasting is a significant part of the character, then the CW version will most likely be the best one. It would also be the best one if the character is designed to be, essentially, a wizard with more combat ability in a pinch. For a character that can be on the front lines and still hold their own, I prefer the RoF by a huge margin, as it is, in my opinion, mechanically superior to the point that the limited spell list is very little hindrance.
Kurama Youko 08-12-05, 07:42 AM	It was a good try catharz but ultimately it fails, and i'll show you why. On that very same paragraph to which you are refering it says quiet clearly. "SOME rules revisions have been included in this product, such as the changes in the lycanthrope template, how monsters acquire feats and skills, name changes of feats, spells and skills, and details race and class abilities." WotC has made it loud and clear that when a class, feat, skill, or other ability is reprinted that the later is infact the revised or currently valid version. It has nothing to do with my finding one version superior or weaker than the other, it has everything to do with making a character by the latest rules available so that it complies without question to the rules of the game. Now back to what supposedly fell under the rules revision, if you look at the majority if not all, because im not gonna set and compare race for race, the stats, abilities, feats and so on of alot of the races and classes in the book they dont match up to any later released sources or versions.
rilem 08-12-05, 07:53 AM	It has nothing to do with my finding one version superior or weaker than the other, Well, you spent an awful lot of time arguing that the CW version IS superior, and about two sentences on the updated/non-updated bit (one of which was spent claiming, falsely, that RoF was 3.0) so I'm glad you've changed your mind on that.
Chaos_Kitten 08-12-05, 08:29 AM	Fellas.....felllas....you're all pretty. It's okay. :D I feel that I'm pretty much set on bard as far as the spellcaster build. It gives me more of the versatility I'm looking for as opposed to going straight sorc. Yet warmage or warlock were also recommended to me. Does anyone think either of those are viable? Secondly the only Bladesinger legal in this campaign will be the CW one. I know some of you will be disappointed, but the DM is fully 3.5. The CW bladesinger is the official 3.5 version as far as he concerns. That's fine with me as I'd rather have a wider selection of spells.
rilem 08-12-05, 10:13 AM	Right. Apologies for the distraction. And regardless of revisions, RoF is Realms and you're not playing an FR game. So that's that. Warlock's nice and is certainly in keeping with your flavor, but its versatility is very item dependent. Their invocations aren't versatile at all, but with Deceive Item (at 4th) and a good Charisma you'll be able to use wands easily. Now, you can advance Warlock with something like bladesinger, although it takes spellcasting to get in. so Bard2/Fighter2/Warlock7/Bladesinger9 Would get you Greater invocations, BAB +17, Saves 8/11/15 Warmage isn't very versatile either — although a Warmage/Bladesinger might be closer to the 2e version of BS that everybody was raving about (never played 2e, but I recall all the grousing when the 3.0 bladesinger came out.) If you do go the bard/bladesinger route, I think my problem with your initial idea was the 3 Swash + 3 Paragon levels that cuts into your spellcasting (and hence flexibility). I might prefix with Bard4/Fighter2 (as Karuma did), Bard3/Fighter2/Paragon2 (five feats, with flaw), or at least Bard2/Swash3/Paragon2 and save the last paragon level for later. EDIT: It's not that War Mage isn't flexible, exactly; it's that they're flexible in a different way than a bard. They can cast all sorts of combat spells on the fly, but out of combat ...
Kurama Youko 08-12-05, 03:42 PM	Dude I don't see my stance changing on any ground here. Just because you want something for 1 class ability that you are trying to claim its legal doesnt make it true. The fact is that the Races of Faerun is not 3.5, like the Savage Species some of its material was supposed to work along with the revised rules for D&D. It doesnt clarify that the Bladesinger from Faerun is a 3.5 Prestige Class it only clarifies that the information give about the races in that book and the feats related to them are compatible with those rules. Even which then its high suspectable, DO two versions of the same prestige class exist in your FR campaigns? Are there 2 Dragon Disciple Prestige Classes when you play the game? No its quiet simple to see that 1.) The Races of Faerun was released before the offical 3.5 update was made available thus alot of its material like the Savage Species material is best taken with a pinch of salt, because only if you DM is willing to over look the imperfections in it is it actual legit. 2.) WotC always says that the later material is considered to be canon.
rilem 08-12-05, 04:17 PM	Dude, didn't you hear? We're all pretty. The OP made his feelings clear on this subject. Let's stay on topic. Is Races of Destiny available? The Half-Elf fighter substitution level (focus in a bunch of blades) could be helpful, in the even Insightful Strike is very nice, but it doesn't work on creatures immune to crits. This is only a metagaming guess, but I'm willing to bet Age of Worms will have more than its share.
Chaos_Kitten 08-12-05, 08:04 PM	Dude, didn't you hear? We're all pretty. The OP made his feelings clear on this subject. Let's stay on topic. Is Races of Destiny available? The Half-Elf fighter substitution level (focus in a bunch of blades) could be helpful, in the even Insightful Strike is very nice, but it doesn't work on creatures immune to crits. This is only a metagaming guess, but I'm willing to bet Age of Worms will have more than its share. Her feelings. ;) I think I'll stick with bard levels. It just plays up more to the image of the character in my mind.
Nazzareth 08-13-05, 12:15 AM	Adding in a level or two of level of sublime cord before bladesinger could give you a higher level of spell casting, but this will delay would delay your entry into bladesinger to 11th or 12th level. The star elf from UE has a +2 Cha bonus and a favored class of bard. Bard 8/ fighter 2/ Sublime cord 2/ Bladesinger 8 Would give you two 7th level spells per day. 10 bardic music uses per day, snowflake wardance or metamagic song. With a cha of 16 or more you can drop the bard levels down to 7 and ditch all the fighter levels for 3 of swashbuckler.
rilem 08-13-05, 12:19 AM	Bless those elves. There's always another subrace around with the right favored class. Although the half-elf sub levels from Races of Destiny are very nice; I wouldn't discount that.
Nazzareth 08-13-05, 12:48 AM	If you can con your DM and spare a feat try and get the exotic weapon prof elven thin blade for use with your bladesinger. The Havoc mage from the Mini's handbook mage has a good class ability that is better the CW bladesingers Song of Celerity. There is also a feat in dragon mag 301 (the on swashbucklers) called single blade style it gives you a +2 AC bonus when fighting with a single one handed weapon. Song of Celerity (T&B,ROF,CW) or the Havoc mages battlecasting ability combines well with a spell storing weapon. You can use the ability to place a spell into the weapon without causing an Aoo and strike with it in the same round. The item familiar feat is also good for bladesingers. What items and spells are you looking at for your bladesinger?