Bladesinger suggestions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTimePost
SoulLord

07-29-04, 06:18 PM		Ive been tinkering with the bladesinger build and could use some suggestions

elf 30 point buy
sun elf +2 int -2 con

str 10 (2) 10
dex 14 (6) 14
con 12 (4) 10
int 18 (16) 20 +5 22 +6 8th 24 +7 16th
wis 8 (0) 8
cha 10 (2) 10

1 swashbuckler 1 bab 1 ac 12 weapon finesse weapon focus rapier
2 wizard 1 bab 0 ac 12 1st lvl spells scribe scroll sl1(1)
3 swashbuckler 2 bab 2 ac 12 combat casting grace +1
4 wizard 2 bab 3 ac 12 int +1 sl2(1)
5 swashbuckler 3 bab 4 ac 12 insightful strike
6 fighter 1 bab 5 ac 13 dodge combat expertise
7 bladesinger 1 bab 6 ac 14 bladesong style sl3(2)
8 bladesinger 2 bab 7 ac 15 int +1 lesser spellsong
9 bladesinger 3 bab 8 ac 16 sl4 (2) feat
10 bladesinger 4 bab 9 ac 17 song of celerity
11 bladesinger 5 bab 10 ac 18 sl5(3)
12 bladesinger 6 bab 11 ac 19 greater spellsong arcane strike
13 bladesinger 7 bab 12 ac 19 sl6(3)
14 bladesinger 8 bab 13 ac 19 song of celerity 4th
15 bladesinger 9 bab 14 ac 19 sl7(4) practiced spellcaster
16 bladesinger 10 bab 15 ac 20 song of fury
17 eldritch knight1bab 16 ac 20 improved critical rapier
18 eldritch knight2bab 17 ac 20 sl8(4) extend spell
19 eldritch knight3bab 18 ac 20 sl9(5)
20 eldritch knight4bab 19 ac 20 sl10(5)

so basically at lvl 20

full attack with song of fury
bab 19 / 14 / 9 /4
arcane strike 5th lvl spell
song of celerity Haste

bab + dex 2 + arcane strike 5 +weapon focus 1 -2 song of fury=+6
25/25/25/20/15/10 dmg 1-6 + 7 int +5d4 threat 15-20 x2
limited to light armor but add int bonus to ac

so any suggestions?

SoulLord
argorond

07-29-04, 07:02 PM		Because this looks like fighter more than caster, i would suggest to drop starting int to 14 (+2 from sun elf) and put those points to str or con.
g23armani

07-29-04, 07:40 PM		I agree, although int is definitely your best stat you are going to get more bang for your buck with a point buy by dropping your base int to 16. I would do: (you may even want to consider putting a base of 16 into con and 14 into int...12 con for a fighter is not going to get you very far)

STR 14
DEX 14
CON 14 -> 12
INT 16 -> 18
WIS 8
CHR 10

Also, here's an alternate progression I was tinkering with a while back...

LEVEL PROGRESSION:
Level 1: Swashbuckler (1) BAB: +1 *Weapon Finesse: rapier, dodge
Level 2: Wizard (1) Scribe Scroll (caster level 1)
Level 3: Swashbuckler (2) BAB: +2 Iron Will
Level 4: Wizard (2) BAB: +3 (caster level 2)
Level 5: Swashbuckler (3) BAB: +4
Level 6: Dragonslayer (1) BAB: +5 (caster level 3) (Combat Casting)
Level 7: Spellsword (1) BAB: +6 (caster level 4)
Level 8: Elf paragon (1)
Level 9: Elf paragon (2) BAB: +7 *Weapon FOcus: rapier (caster level 5) (Combat Expertise)
Level 10: Bladesinger (1) BAB: +8 (caster level 6)
Level 11: Elf paragon (3) BAB: +9 (caster level 7), Int +2
Level 12: Bladesinger (2) BAB: +10 Mobility
Level 13: Bladesinger (3) BAB: +11 (caster level 8)
Level 14: Bladesinger (4) BAB: +12
Level 15: Bladesinger (5) BAB: +13 (caster level 9) Spring attack
Level 16: Bladesinger (6) BAB: +14
Level 17: Bladesinger (7) BAB: +15 (caster level 10)
Level 18: Bladesinger (8) BAB: +16 Power attack
Level 19: Bladesinger (9) BAB: +17 (caster level 11)
Level 20: Bladesinger 10

Elf paragon levels synergize nicely with this build...2 wizard casting levels, +2 to int and +2 BAB in 3 levels plus some nice skills.
jus10

07-29-04, 08:14 PM		Bah! High Int is a good idea to keep your AC up. Sure STR would do more damage...and CON would make you last longer...but only if you get hit alot. If you ask me the most important thing a Light armored character can have is high DEX/INT/WIS for high AC.

and IIRC Swashbuckler allows you to add INT to damage dosnt it? SO STR becomes a nonnecessary stat.
Ranthanas

07-29-04, 08:50 PM		Watch the experience penalty...

(Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1)
g23armani

07-29-04, 11:21 PM		Originally posted by jus10
Bah! High Int is a good idea to keep your AC up. Sure STR would do more damage...and CON would make you last longer...but only if you get hit alot. If you ask me the most important thing a Light armored character can have is high DEX/INT/WIS for high AC.

and IIRC Swashbuckler allows you to add INT to damage dosnt it? SO STR becomes a nonnecessary stat.

I think you are missing the point. Because of how the point buy system works, having an 18 in a stat is highly problematic unless you are a primary caster. If he keeps the stats as they are he gets the following:

STR 10 +0 hit/dam
DEX 14 +2 ac
CON 10 +0 hp/level +0 fort save
INT 20 +5 dam (to those that can be hit with crits), +5 ac

STR 14 +2hit/dam
DEX 14 +2 ac
CON 12 +1 hp/level +1 fort save
INT 18 +4 dam/+4 ac

So you are losing a whopping one point of ac and gaining +2 to hit, +1 to damage (and your damage bonus is more consistent...not completely negated when fighting undead/constructs), +1 fort save and +1 hp / level....personally I think it's worth it.

G23armani
PhoenixInferno

07-30-04, 12:02 AM		I agree - you can only cast as a 10th level wizard (14th with Practiced Spellcaster) anyway, so while there's some benefit to pursuing a high INT, it seems that better physical stats would serve you better. And Ranthanas is right, watch the XP penalty - another level of fighter would help a lot.
SoulLord

07-30-04, 12:56 PM		Argorond ok dropped some int and switched to regular elf how do you see it now?

Jus10 i agree that str is not something i should focus on im trying to focus only on dex and int

Ranthanas thanks for the reminder added another fighter level to eliminate it

g23armani just a quick note

STR 10 +0 hit/dam
DEX 14 +2 ac (weapon finesse +2 to hit)
CON 10 +0 hp/level +0 fort save
INT 20 +5 dam (to those that can be hit with crits), +5 ac

STR 14 +2hit/dam
DEX 14 +2 ac
CON 12 +1 hp/level +1 fort save
INT 18 +4 dam/+4 ac

but i see your point
How about this

average elf +2 dex -2 con

score /cost/ adjusted/ end
str 12 (4) 12 13 +1 hit/dmg
dex 16 (10) 18 22 +6 hit /initiative /ac (weapon finesse)
con 12 (4) 10 10
int 16 (10) 16 16 +3 ac +3dmg
wis 8 (0) 8 8
cha 10 (2) 10 10

1 swashbuckler 1 bab 1 ac 14 weapon finesse weapon focus rapier
2 wizard 1 bab 0 ac 14 1st lvl spells scribe scroll sl1(1)
3 swashbuckler 2 bab 2 ac 14 combat casting grace +1
4 wizard 2 bab 3 ac 14 dex +1 sl2(1)
5 fighter 1 bab 4 ac 15 dodge combat expertise
6 fighter 2 bab 5 ac 15 point blank shot
7 swashbuckler 3 bab 6 ac 15 insightful strike
8 bladesinger 1 bab 7 ac 17 bladesong style sl3(2) dex +1
9 bladesinger 2 bab 8 ac 18 lesser spellsong
10 bladesinger 3 bab 9 ac 19 sl4 (2) feat
11 bladesinger 4 bab 10 ac 19 song of celerity
12 bladesinger 5 bab 11 ac 19 sl5(3) dex +1
13 bladesinger 6 bab 12 ac 18 greater spellsong arcane strike
14 bladesinger 7 bab 13 ac 18 sl6(3)
15 bladesinger 8 bab 14 ac 18 song of celerity 4th
16 bladesinger 9 bab 15 ac 19 sl7(4) practiced spellcaster dex +1
17 bladesinger 10 bab 16 ac 19 song of fury
18 eldritch knight1bab 17 ac 19 improved critical rapier
19 eldritch knight2bab 18 ac 19 sl8(4) extend spell
20 eldritch knight3bab 19 ac 19 sl9(5)

SoulLord
argorond

07-30-04, 01:39 PM		b laa blaa nothing :)
Bladesinger Boy

07-30-04, 02:42 PM		We all know the INT is great, but with point buy I think that extra few points to get an 18 are better spent in DEX or CON. If I remember the point ratios right, I'd go with:

str 10 (2) 10
dex 16 (10) 16
con 14 (4) 12
int 16 (10) 18 +4, 20 +5 8th 22 +6 16th
wis 8 (0) 8
cha 10 (2) 10

I love the ability for a Bladesinger to use a finesseable weapon, but the specifically a Rapier stills leaves a bad taste in my mouth but that's fine. If you're only going to be able to take 3 or 4 levels of Eldritch Knight, I'd go for Spellsword instead. So, this is how I'd build that Bladesinger. And the important point was made that the 1 Fighter level isn't worth it because of the multiclassing penalty. You may to think about specializing, maybe trans, if you think you'll have other mages in the party; if not, just vanilla wiz I'd recommend. Another campaign tweak note: if you can take the feat Defensive Fighter (-2 instead of -4 when fighting defensively) to replace Combat Expertise for the Bladesinger reqs, that'd be good but it's truly an issue of personal flavour and DM permission.

3Swashbuckler/ 4Wizard/ 3 Spellsword/ 10Bladesinger
Bab +18, 8/12/15, 11 caster levels
Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Rapier, Improved Critical: Rapier, Combat Expertise, Combat Casting, Scribe Scroll, Dodge, Arcane Strike, Praticed Spellcaster x2

When/If you hit Epic, take your 5th Wizard level at 21 so you can nab Quicken Spell as a bonus feat. If you want a more combatitive familiar, switch Practiced Spellcaster with Improved Familiar or, for a helpful guide, take Celestial Familiar. If you really want to be able to take down big bruisers, switch both Practiced Spellcaster feats to Mobility and Elusive target so you can move around in combat more and negate people's power attack.

Can somone describe what Elf Paragon is? Even if posting specific stuff isn't allowed, can some cite the book, issue or publisher?
g23armani

07-30-04, 03:01 PM		Bladesinger Boy, I like your stat allotment, forgot about the free weapon finesse making strength not all that useful. As far as the elf paragon it is in Unearthed Arcana. Basically it gives you +2 BAB, free weapon focus, +2 int and +2 wizard caster levels in 3 levels, all of which are quite useful in a bladesinger build.
argorond

07-30-04, 03:02 PM		Bladesinger Boy elf paragon is from Unearted Arcana and for your build, you cannot take 2x practised spellcaster to same spellcasting, you can take it multiple times if you take other casting way.
jdm5000

07-30-04, 04:03 PM		As far as the stats go

keep in mind this guy gets his INT bonus to damage in addition to his STR. So, it pays to keep that INT up.
Alratan

07-30-04, 04:27 PM		The high Int may be worth it to grant more fuel for Arcane Strike-ing, but I don't know, it would have to be looked at.
Feldspar

07-30-04, 05:35 PM		Originally posted by SoulLord Ranthanas thanks for the reminder added another fighter level to eliminate it
You should remove the second level of Wizard then. Right now all its doing is delaying your entry into Bladesinger.

How about this
score /cost/ adjusted/ end
str 12 (4) 12 13 +1 hit/dmg
dex 16 (10) 18 22 +6 hit /initiative /ac (weapon finesse)
The text of Weapon Finesse states "you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls". That makes Str less useful for you.

My plan is to run a half-elf to avoid the XP penalty. I'll specialize, probably as a Transmuter or a Necromancer, ditching Enchantment and Evoc as I won't be a good enough caster to overpower peoples saves. Necro has nice no save drains (eneveration) or I'll concentrate on self buffs with Transmutation.

Everyone knows the feats involved and what stats are good so I'm not going to bother repeating that.
1) Swashbuckler 1
2) Wizard (Specialist) 1
3) Swashbuckler 2
4) Swashbuckler 3
5) Wizard (Specialist) 2
6) Fighter 1
7) Bladesinger 1
8) Spellsword 1

From there, take all 10 levels of Bladesinger and 4 of Spellsword. I'm still debating over the exact order. Every level of Bladesinger (for a while) is going to add to AC while the 4th level of Spellsinger is way cool. Of course, Bladesinger 10 isn't too shabby either.

What are the advantages to this build? At level 20 you have the BAB of 19 (plus song of Fury). You have an arcane caster level of 9 which is enough to get you 5th level spells. The four levels of Spellsword are better than Eldritch Knight. You lose out on one caster level (wouldn't give you 6th level spells so not that painful) but you get d8 hps instead of d6. You get to take 15% off Arcane Spell Failure which should be enough to let you use a mithral breastplate. But the real killer feature is the Channel spell ability (3 times per day) at level 4. It totally extends the whole "casting spells for free while meleeing" thing that the bladedancer is all about.

Use Song of Celerity to get your buff on, meanwhile you've got nasty spells like Enervation stored in your weapon waiting to be channeled.
Feldspar

07-30-04, 05:43 PM		Originally posted by Bladesinger Boy
3Swashbuckler/ 4Wizard/ 3 Spellsword/ 10Bladesinger This is an illegal build; Spellsword requires the Heavy Armor Proficiency.
SoulLord

07-30-04, 06:30 PM		Fieldspar: ok dropped a wizard level and adjusted the ability scores a bit the bladesinger doesnt have ASF in light armor so perhaps a mithril breast plate? for another 5 to the ac

Alratan:
benefits of high int more spells, more skill points, more damage, more ac. besides its a stat that wont belost once the bladesinger polymoprhs into something else unlike dex str or con.

jmd500:
tried to keep int up as much as possible but lowered it a bit to increase con and dex what do you think of fox conning is it worth it for a +2 ac and dmg as a buff spells for the bladesinger?

Bladesinger Boy:
adjusted the staring stats to match yours but split the increases betwen dex and int .

so heres the latest build with your suggestions

average elf +2 dex -2 con
score /cost/ adjusted/ end
str 10 (2) 10/10
dex 16 (10) 18/20 +5 hit /initiative /ac (weapon finesse)
con 14 (6) 12/12 +1 hp / lvl
int 16 (10) 16/18 +4 ac +4dmg
wis 8 (0) 8/8
cha 10 (2) 10/10

1 swashbuckler 1 bab 1 ac 14 weapon finesse weapon focus rapier
2 wizard 1 bab 0 ac 14 1st lvl spells scribe scroll sl1(1)
3 swashbuckler 2 bab 2 ac 14 combat casting grace +1
4 fighter 1 bab 3 ac 15 dodge combat expertise int+1
5 fighter 2 bab 5 ac 15 fighter bonus feat
6 swashbuckler 3 bab 6 ac 15 insightful strike
7 bladesinger 1 bab 7 ac 16 bladesong style sl2(1) int+2
8 bladesinger 2 bab 8 ac 17 lesser spellsong
9 bladesinger 3 bab 9 ac 18 sl3 (2) feat
10 bladesinger 4 bab 10 ac 19 song of celerity
11 bladesinger 5 bab 11 ac 19 sl4(2) dex +1
12 bladesinger 6 bab 12 ac 19 greater spellsong arcane strike
13 bladesinger 7 bab 13 ac 19 sl5(3)
14 bladesinger 8 bab 14 ac 19 song of celerity 4th
15 bladesinger 9 bab 15 ac 19 sl6(3) practiced spellcaster dex +1
16 bladesinger 10 bab 16 ac 19 song of fury
17 eldritch knight1bab 17 ac 19 improved critical rapier
18 eldritch knight2bab 18 ac 19 sl7(4) extend spell
19 eldritch knight3bab 19 ac 19 sl8(4)
20 eldritch knight4bab 19 ac 20 sl9(5) dex+1

SoulLord
jdm5000

07-30-04, 10:27 PM		I'm more used to 3.0 buff spells that actually last long enough to be worthwhile, but most definately use Fox's Cunning to boost INT. The cool thing about this build is a boost to 1 stat boosts melee damage, AC, and save DC.

And if you really want to get nasty, you can also use Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace and it's damage bonus and AC bonus will stack with what you got from Fox's Cunning.

This is a good "I don't need no stinkin magic items" character. He gets his power from his skills and classes and doesn't depend on magic items.
SoulLord

08-02-04, 04:04 PM		Ok heres the latest build so far

average elf +2 dex -2 con
score /cost/ adjusted/ end
str 10 (2) 10/10
dex 16 (10) 18/20 +5 hit /initiative /ac (weapon finesse)
con 14 (6) 12/12 +1 hp / lvl
int 16 (10) 16/18 +4 ac +4dmg
wis 8 (0) 8/8
cha 10 (2) 10/10

1 swashbuckler 1 bab 1 ac 14 weapon finesse weapon focus rapier
2 wizard 1 bab 0 ac 14 1st lvl spells scribe scroll sl1(1)
3 swashbuckler 2 bab 2 ac 14 combat casting grace +1
4 fighter 1 bab 3 ac 15 dodge combat expertise int+1
5 fighter 2 bab 5 ac 15 fighter bonus feat
6 swashbuckler 3 bab 6 ac 15 insightful strike
7 bladesinger 1 bab 7 ac 16 bladesong style sl2(1) int+2
8 bladesinger 2 bab 8 ac 17 lesser spellsong
9 bladesinger 3 bab 9 ac 18 sl3 (2) feat
10 bladesinger 4 bab 10 ac 19 song of celerity
11 bladesinger 5 bab 11 ac 19 sl4(2)
12 bladesinger 6 bab 12 ac 19 greater spellsong arcane strike dex +1
13 bladesinger 7 bab 13 ac 19 sl5(3)
14 bladesinger 8 bab 14 ac 19 song of celerity 4th
15 bladesinger 9 bab 15 ac 19 sl6(3) practiced spellcaster
16 bladesinger 10 bab 16 ac 20 song of fury dex +1
17 spellsword 1 bab 17 ac 20 -10% asf sl7(4)
18 spellsword 1 bab 18 ac 20 improved critical rapier, feat
19 spellsword 1 bab 19 ac 20 -15% asf sl8(4)
20 spellsword 1 bab 10 ac 20 channel spell 3/day int +1

bab 19 4th lvl spells
spells
0(4) 1(5) 2(4) 3(4) 4(3)

free 4th level spell song of celerity 1/day
channel any spell into sword last up to 8 hours
song of fury +1 attack all at -2 to hit
bab 19/14/9/4
song of fury 17/17/12/7/2

long term buffs
mage armor
greater magic weapon +3

Now what im searching for is a good combination of spells to use in a full round action
Song Haste + Sword vampiric touch
song scorching ray + sword scorching ray
song polymorph self + sword enervation

so any suggestions?

also ive been thinking of adding the TWF feats and using the blade boots as to be able to get the extra attack and still keep my hand free for the bladesinger requirements.

SoulLord
Feldspar

08-02-04, 09:02 PM		Originally posted by SoulLord
12 bladesinger 6 bab 12 ac 19 greater spellsong arcane strike dex +1
13 bladesinger 7 bab 13 ac 19 sl5(3)
The ability to cast 3rd level spells is a prereq for Aracane Strike.

Originally posted by SoulLord
4 fighter 1 bab 3 ac 15 dodge combat expertise int+1
5 fighter 2 bab 5 ac 15 fighter bonus featFrom level 5 on, your BAB is 1 too high.
Feldspar

08-02-04, 09:45 PM		Originally posted by SoulLord
so any suggestions? Are you dead set on being an elf? I worked on my Bladesinger-Spellsword build this weekend and it really sets up nicely for half-elves. First, you get to have 5th level spells. Second, you can get to the Spellsword channel ability quicker, which I think is key. At 11th level you can be wearing a Mithril Breastplate with 0% ASF and channeling 3 spells a day.


L Class BAB CL goodies
1 Swa 1 1 0 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Rapier
2 Wiz 1 1 1 1st lvl spells, Scribe Scroll
3 Swa 2 2 1 Dodge, Grace +1
4 Swa 3 3 1 Insightful Strike
5 Ftr 1 4 1 Combat Expertise
6 Wiz 2 5 2 Combat Casting
7 Bds 1 6 3 2nd lvl spells, Bladesong style,
8 Sps 1 7 4 -10% ASF
9 Sps 2 8 4 Practiced Spellcaster, Improved Critical: Rapier
10 Sps 3 9 5 3rd lvl spells, -15% ASF
11 Sps 4 10 5 Channel spell 3/day
12 Bds 2 11 5 Lesser Spellsong, Arcane Strike
13 Bds 3 12 6
14 Bds 4 13 6 Song of Celerity (2nd)
15 Bds 5 14 7 4th lvl spells, Feat
16 Bds 6 15 7 Greater Spellsong
17 Bds 7 16 8
18 Bds 8 17 8 Song of Celerity (4th), Feat
19 Bds 9 18 9 5th lvl spells
20 Bds 10 19 9 Song of Fury


BAB 19, 5th lvl spells, F/R/W - 12/10*/15 (* includes Grace). The two d4's are balanced by the 4 d10's which means the average hit die of the class through all 20 levels is a d8. Not too shabby.

I especially like the way the bonus feat from Spellsword 2 combines with your usual feat at level 9 to boost combat and magic. Even the two "dead levels" at least have an increase in caster level.
SoulLord

08-06-04, 02:06 PM		Unfortunately even tough i recognize that half elf is better for the build it must be an elf following your lead it came down to this

1 swashbuckler 1 bab 1 ac 14 weapon finesse weapon focus rapier
2 wizard 1 bab 0 ac 14 1st lvl spells scribe scroll sl1(1)
3 swashbuckler 2 bab 2 ac 14 combat casting grace +1
4 fighter 1 bab 3 ac 15 dodge combat expertise int+1
5 fighter 2 bab 4 ac 15 fighter bonus feat
6 swashbuckler 3 bab 5 ac 15 insightful strike
7 bladesinger 1 bab 6 ac 16 bladesong style sl2(1) int+2
8 bladesinger 2 bab 7 ac 17 lesser spellsong
9 bladesinger 3 bab 8 ac 18 sl3 (2) improved critical rapier
10 spellsword 1 bab 9 ac 18 -10% asf sl4(2)
11 spellsword 2 bab 10 ac 18
12 spellsword 3 bab 19 ac 18 -15% asf sl5(3) dex+1 arcane strike
13 spellsword 4 bab 10 ac 18 channel spell 3/day
14 bladesinger 4 bab 10 ac 19 song of celerity
15 bladesinger 5 bab 11 ac 19 sl6(3) practiced spellcaster
16 bladesinger 6 bab 12 ac 20 greater spellsong dex +1
17 bladesinger 7 bab 13 ac 20 sl7(4)
18 bladesinger 8 bab 14 ac 20 song of celerity 4th
19 bladesinger 9 bab 15 ac 20 sl8(4)
20 bladesinger 10 bab 16 ac 20 song of fury dex +1

no 5th lvl spells but a good amount of feats to go with it

SoulLord