Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eltharion 01-05-07, 08:59 AM	Hello... I've been away from D&D for a while, so I'm not all caught up on the latest PrCs. I got invited to join a campaign, and I settled on Bladesinger (an old favorite since the original kit in 2nd ed). My DM suggested the following build: Swash1 - Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse (b) Swash2 - Grace (or Arcane Stunt from Complete Mage) Swash3 - Dodge, Insightful Strike Wiz1 - (take Elven Replacement Level from Races of Wild) EPara1 - Epara2 - Combat Casting, Weapon Focus (b) Epara3 - +2 INT Bldsng1 Wiz2 - Arcane Strike which I am not unhappy with; it gets me into Bladesinger and gives me Arcane Strike, both goals. We'll be starting around level 4/5 (supposedly if we start at 4 we'll very right on the edge of getting 5) and proceeding through 10/11/12. Kind of unlikely that we'll get further than that, though. In case it matters, I rolled a set of stats last night, and these are what I got: 16, 15, 15, 14, 14, 12. With the build above in mind (and after 4th level bump and racial Elf adjustments) I have tenatively placed them as follows: Str 16 Dex 17 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 12 So, yeah. Like I said, I've been away a while, and I'm open to suggestions. My main thinking was Bladesinger built on Swashbuckler, driving towards Arcane Strike- but I can be convinced otherwise. Anyone have any thoughts? If they're "don't play a Bladesinger, it's non-Optimal" feel free to suggest alternatives as well... Thanks in advance! Edit: It's also worth nothing that the DM pre-okayed (without being asked!) that the Elven Thinblade can work with all class features of Swashbuckler and Bladesinger, so I have that as a weapon option. Removing Bladesinger might also remove that option, though.
DaveTheMagicWeasel 01-05-07, 09:09 AM	Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) It makes your caster level equal to your BAB, which is great for overcoming the Bladesinger's weaknesses. Swashbuckler 3 / Monk 2 / Wizard 2 / Bladesinger 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Bladesinger +7 (or Eldritch Knight / Enlightened Fist to finish with instead) Use Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor) to get Int instead of Wis to AC, the Cobra Strike Monk variant in Unearthed Arcana also helps you get the feat prerequisites together, and it gets Evasion and boosts to your saves. The depressing thing about Bladesinger is that you achieve the style better by taking less levels of it.
Eltharion 01-05-07, 09:43 AM	Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) It makes your caster level equal to your BAB, which is great for overcoming the Bladesinger's weaknesses. That certainly does sound interesting- I'll have to look into it. I take it you actually have to get to AbChamp5 to get it?
DaveTheMagicWeasel 01-05-07, 09:54 AM	That certainly does sound interesting- I'll have to look into it. I take it you actually have to get to AbChamp5 to get it? Yep, but the other 4 levels are all very worth having (full bab, full caster progression, d10 HD and some tasty class abilities). The only slight downside to the class is that it needs Combat casting to get in, but if you're going for Bladesinger you'll be taking it anyway.
Eltharion 01-05-07, 10:14 AM	Yep, but the other 4 levels are all very worth having (full bab, full caster progression, d10 HD and some tasty class abilities). The only slight downside to the class is that it needs Combat casting to get in, but if you're going for Bladesinger you'll be taking it anyway. Yeah, no kidding... I will definitely have to check this out. From what you wrote above, are there other prereqs for the class? I'd prefer to avoid bringing the Monk levels into it, both for expedience (like I said, we're only going to be playing through like 5 levels) and... well, Monks aren't though of too highly with the guys I game with (both flavor and balance issues). Last question, I promise. Unless your answer brings another to mind. :)
DaveTheMagicWeasel 01-05-07, 10:19 AM	Yeah, no kidding... I will definitely have to check this out. From what you wrote above, are there other prereqs for the class? I'd prefer to avoid bringing the Monk levels into it, both for expedience (like I said, we're only going to be playing through like 5 levels) and... well, Monks aren't though of too highly with the guys I game with (both flavor and balance issues). Last question, I promise. Unless your answer brings another to mind. :) As I recall BAB +5, Combat Casting, 1st levels spells (inc. a certain number of Abjuration spells). If you're qualifying for Bladesinger then you qualify for Abjurant Champion. There's no need for the Monk, I just like getting Int to AC an extra time, and if I was playing it to higher levels might finish it off with 4 levels of Enlightened Fist. Drop it for more Wizard, Elf Paragon or whatever else takes your fancy. What I might actually do is Swashbuckler 3 / Wiz 2 / Fighter 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Bladesinger 9. It depends how attached you are to Bladesinger tbh, but optimization wise you'll want AbjCha asap. EDIT - on another tangent, the Duskblade base class in PHB2 is pretty similar to a Bladesinger. More focused on damage, but it brings it all together from level 1.
Eltharion 01-05-07, 10:23 AM	As I recall BAB +5, Combat Casting, 1st levels spells (inc. a certain number of Abjuration spells). If you're qualifying for Bladesinger then you qualify for Abjurant Champion. Sweet. You've definitely given me some stuff to chew on... thanks!
FeceMan 01-05-07, 11:36 AM	Is the Faerun bladesinger an option?
Shado 01-05-07, 12:19 PM	Warblade/Wizard into Jade Phoenix Mage. ToB classes are where melee is at! Additionally, as far as gish-es (gish-i?... gish?) go, Jade Phoenix Mage is one of the best. I don't have CM, so I can't comment on Abj. Champ. directly, but it sounds like it'd be worth a dip in the build as well. Arcane Strike is a must. Practiced Spellcaster too. At work atm... will try to build something out tonight.
Eltharion 01-05-07, 12:59 PM	Is the Faerun bladesinger an option? While we aren't set in Faerun, I could probably talk my DM into it. But you'll have to present some terribly compelling reason for it... I am not fond of any PrC with its own spell progression and list. The last Bladesinger I played started out with that version, and when CW came out, my DM (not the same one as for this character) allowed me to port it over. But if you've got an idea for making it work, I'd love to hear it.
Eltharion 01-05-07, 01:01 PM	Arcane Strike is a must. Practiced Spellcaster too. At work atm... will try to build something out tonight. I definitely agree about Arcane Strike, although Practiced Spellcaster I'm unfamiliar with... is it possible to enlighten me without violating ToS?
FriendlyFrog 01-05-07, 01:08 PM	I definitely agree about Arcane Strike, although Practiced Spellcaster I'm unfamiliar with... is it possible to enlighten me without violating ToS? To put it short, it gives you +4 caster levels for one of your casting classes, up to your HD. For an axample, a Fighter 2/Sorcerer 2 with the feat would have spells known/per day as a 2nd level Sorcerer, but his caster level would be 4, a Fighter 6/Sorcerer 2 with the feat would have spells known/per day as a 2nd level Sorcerer, but his caster level would be 6.
Eltharion 01-05-07, 01:25 PM	To put it short, it gives you +4 caster levels for one of your casting classes, up to your HD. For an axample, a Fighter 2/Sorcerer 2 with the feat would have spells known/per day as a 2nd level Sorcerer, but his caster level would be 4, a Fighter 6/Sorcerer 2 with the feat would have spells known/per day as a 2nd level Sorcerer, but his caster level would be 6. So it only affects spell durations and save DCs? I'm not sure I can spare a feat for that... I will rarely be trying to hit something with an offensive spell, and a feat just to make my buff spells slightly longer doesn't seem like the best tradeoff in the world... or am I missing something?
FriendlyFrog 01-05-07, 01:32 PM	So it only affects spell durations and save DCs? I'm not sure I can spare a feat for that... I will rarely be trying to hit something with an offensive spell, and a feat just to make my buff spells slightly longer doesn't seem like the best tradeoff in the world... or am I missing something? DCs arent depended on caster level, but spell effects usually are. For example, a fireball with a caster level of 5 does 5d6 damage, but with a caster level of 9 it does 9d6. I'd say there's a pretty big difference there, that's why the feat is usually a very good pick.
fricot_1 01-05-07, 03:05 PM	The problem with trying to use the Fearun Bladesinger is that it is 3.0, and since Complete Warrior is 3.5, it is the updated version. (Alot like how the Fanged Ring was updated from a 3.0 dragon magazine into 'Official' 3.5 material, but came out as a worse item.) However, personally I do prefer the 3.0 Races of Fearun version, it has the spells already in it instead of augmenting a class already present, which is most likely weaker at higgher levels.. but is alot easier for beginers who want interesting characters. The only real difference I can find is the way that the class 'inputs' spells into your sword. To the best of my knowledge it does not put a level 2 cap on the spells you can insert, like the 3.5 version. This means your Bladesinger from 3.0 will be able to throw level 4 or 5 spells into his sword, and the 3.5 version will only be able to chuck level 2 spells into his. That can be a whole lot of power in itself. Unfortunately it's not open infront of me though - I know I shouldn't run off memory on these threads though. In short - Go for the Fearun Version. The way I see it is that all the things in FR are in FR, but could just as likely be in other campaign settings as well. Just not in the same geographical location or run by the same organization. There could be thiefs exactly as the Shadow Thieves of Amn in your DM's campainge, but they might be the Shadow Thieves of Istanbul. But I digress...
Eltharion 01-05-07, 04:19 PM	The only real difference I can find is the way that the class 'inputs' spells into your sword. Err... neither one "inputs" spells into his sword. Are you maybe confusing Bladesinger with another PrC?
FeceMan 01-05-07, 08:41 PM	While we aren't set in Faerun, I could probably talk my DM into it. But you'll have to present some terribly compelling reason for it... I am not fond of any PrC with its own spell progression and list. The last Bladesinger I played started out with that version, and when CW came out, my DM (not the same one as for this character) allowed me to port it over. But if you've got an idea for making it work, I'd love to hear it. The reason I prefer the Faerun bladesinger is because it adds your full INT bonus to AC as a dodge bonus, gives bonus feats, and allows unlimited quicken spells/day of fourth level of lower (if I am recalling correctly). Furthermore, you can use another PrC to advance caster level with it. For conversion, just use the bladesinger's 3.5 skill list.
jstorrie 01-05-07, 09:09 PM	If you use Beguiler, instead of Wizard, you will get more spell slots for Arcane Striking and have no ASF worries and get more skill points. And if you use half-elf, you can take Able Learner, springboarding off the extensive Beguiler skill list to play the party's skill-monkey with your high Int. This means you can't use elf paragon, but I think it's a feasible trade-off; if you do half-elf paragon you gain essentially the same bonuses, at a loss of one caster level. But do start with Beguiler1/Swash3, I think this is critical. In the long run, Beguiler 6 may be very much worth it for swift action feinting...
Kuroi Kenshi 01-05-07, 10:55 PM	The depressing thing about Bladesinger is that you achieve the style better by taking less levels of it.Too true. On that line of thought, here are a few builds that are bladesingers without taking the class. They're modified 1-13 level builds from the usual 1-20 builds. They still all attain higher-level bladesinger abilities (ignoring ASF, quickening spells, flurry with a longsword) sooner than a bladesinger PrC-build would, and get more abilities on top of that. Less feat-intensive for PrC requirements, too. And you'll be a much better singer! Half-Elf Bard1-2/Fighter2/Monk1/Bard3-4/Abjurant Champion3/Sublime Chord1/Abjurant Champion4-5 BAB 10, CL 10, Lv6 avg 7.3 HD, Lv13 avg 8.3 HD CHA to hit and AC. Light armor with no ASF. Flurry with a longsword. 3 bonus feats. Gets 6th level spells. Feats - combat casting, weapon focus (fighter bonus), snowflake war dance, whirling steel strike, arcane strike, practiced spellcaster. 1 free fighter bonus feat, and monk bonus feat of your choice. Bard1-2/Fighter2/Bard3/Monk2/Abjurant Champion1/Soldier of Light2/Abjurant Champion2-4 BAB 11, CL 7, Lv6 avg 8 HD, Lv13 avg 8.8 HD CHA to AC, hit, damage, and saves. Light armor with no ASF. Flurry with a longsword. 4 bonus feats. Evasion. Gets...3rd level spells :p But hey, this guy is made to be a tank and less a caster. Feats - combat casting, weapon focus (fighter bonus), snowflake war dance, whirling steel strike, divine might. The other fighter bonus feat, 12th level feat, and the 2 monk feats are up to you.
Votan 01-06-07, 12:24 AM	I want to second the look at Duskblade point. It's a good class form the PHB2and it allows you to play this style of combat from the beginning. It is tougher than the Bladesinger at lower levels and the tough parts of multi-classing are avoided. Full BAB helps alot and it nicely avoids the reduced casting levels of Bladesinger that would require effort and feats to overcome.
Shado 01-06-07, 02:18 AM	OK, I've been glancing over the material again. You got some choices to make. First, how do you see yourself playing this character? Will you be dumping your spell slots into Arcane Strike left and right, or is AS more of a little extra "omph" to take down the big baddies? Do you want utility spells, offensive spells or buffing spells? A mix? Second, what's more important to you: spellcasting (Arcane Striking) power, melee capacity (BAB, HP, AC) or ability's (skills, feats and such). What these questions will answer is: What spell-casting class will be your base? Wizard, Beguiler or Duskblade. All 3 classes are INT based casters. The Wizard choice will grant you the fewest number of spells per day, but leaves you with nearly unlimited choices... so long as you prepare the spell in advance. This is the path if you want a good mix of spells and levels in the Elf Paragon class. Assuming you play until CL 12, then you'll just barely gain access to 5th level spells at CL 11. The Beguiler will give you the greatest number of spells per day of the choices, with no need to prepare spells day to day. You cast like a Sorcerer, and know all spells on the Beguiler list. This is the path to choose if you plan to dump spell slots into Arcane Strike left and right, plan on only casting utility spells (for the most part...Haste is a class spell), wish to truly capitalize on your high INT for skills, fight and cast in light armor and have utility to the party outside of combat. Gets 5th level spells at CL 11. The Duskblade is the most limited caster of the bunch, in terms of spell knowledge and spell level. Cast as a Sorcerer from limited number of spells choosen from a limited list. The list is very gish friendly, however, with plenty of offensive and buff oriented spells to choose from. As you don't plan to play past 12th CL, you won't get to make good use of Arcane Strike. (Likely not qualifying until 12th CL.) However, Duskblades have the unique ability to channel spells into their weapon to deliver the spell as part of a melee attack. (Additionally, the Jade Phoenix Mage has the ability "Arcane Wrath", which sort of makes up for the loss. Though... you'd have AW, which stacks with Arcane Strike, with the other two options as well...) With a d8 hit die, full BAB and the ability to cast in armor, this is the choice for melee power house augmented with magic. Only earns 3rd level spells at CL 11. For the Wizard build, go: Warblade 1 / Wiz 2 / Elf Paragon 3 / JPM 6 (This order helps you're skill points out... choose Warblade as your 5th level class to trade skills for 2nd level maneuvers.) Base numbers @ 12th CL: BAB +10, Caster level = 8, HP = d12 + 2d4 +3d8 + 6d6, Fort +8, Reflex +5, Will +6 Beguiler: Beguiler 4 / Warblade 1 / Beguiler +1 / JPM 6 @ 12th CL: BAB +9, Caster level = 9, HP = d12 + 11d6, Fort +8, Reflex +3, Will +6 Duskblade : Duskblade 4 / Warblade 1 / Duskblade +1 / JPM 6 (Opposite the Wizard build. Warblade should be your 1st level class for more skill points.) @ 12th CL: BAB +12, Caster level = 9, HP = d12 + 5d8 +6d6, Fort +11, Reflex +3, Will +6 As for feats, thematically, as an elf geared toward a "Bladesinger" style of play, take Improved Weapon Familiarity to make the Lightblade, Thinblade and the Courtblade martial weapons for you. Weapon Focus: Rapier will give you focus with 4 weapons (as all the elven weapons count as Rapiers in regards to feats and abilities). Additionally, you can swap the focus around as you see fit with the Warblade's weapon aptitude ability. You can get Arcane Strike at 9th level with the Wizard and Beguiler builds. Practiced Spellcaster is a decent choice to take after the Warblade level or after starting JPM, but given the limited play of the game (and depending on what spells and path you choose, this could be dropped... more important in the Wizard build unless you drop Elf Paragon in favor of straight Wizard levels.) Stances and Maneuvers are up to you. You'll only ever gain 2 stances with these builds. (Well... 3 really, Mystic Phoenix Stance at 2nd level JPM is a bonus of sorts... one you'll likely use a lot.) One 1st from the Warblade level, and then a second at CL 11 with your 5th JPM level. At that point I suggest Thicket of Blades. (Though this will require you devoting some maneuvers to Devoted Spirit.) Additionally, you only learn 6 maneuvers, 3 as a Warblade and then 3 as a JPM. Choose carefully to meet your style of play. There are a lot of good options, but you won't have the opportunity to swap out any maneuvers as you level. There are also several maneuvers with prereqs. So be careful. (You can always augment maneuvers known with feat choices and magic items, however.) JPM's Arcane Wrath is available as soon as you take the PrC. This should hold you over quite well 'til you get Arcane Strike (if you take it) and stacks with AS for some serious bonus damage. There may be better options than what I've presented, but I wanted to give you options that allow you to choose your style of play. I also wanted to basically accomplish your goal of being a "Bladesinger" from the first die roll of the game. Not to build something that doesn't really come into its own until levels you won't see. Lastly, maintaining caster level and BAB were priorities. There's obviously room for play based upon what you want. I'd be more than happy to tighten up to a specific build with more feedback.