Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dawgfan 10-07-04, 03:05 AM	Seeing as I loved 2ed bladesingers and the fact that imo they didnt get a proper 3ed conversion, I ask you guys this. What would be some of your CW BS builds if they recieved +1 caster level at every level. Now i know gish are like a favored son around these boards so i know you guys could definately come up with some uber builds and i would appreciate if you would share them with us. I came up with 2, seeing as there seems to always be builds using swashbuckler levels and builds using fighter levels, most likely for rapier and longsword users respectfully. Fighter2/Wizard4/Spellsword4/Bladesinger10 is the first and yeilds a +18BAB and CL16(20), and i went spellsword instead of eldricth knight because with SpS4 i get channel spell and only give up one caster level, which is made up with practiced spellcaster, so i figuered it was a decent tradeoff. Swashbuckler3/Wizard4/Elf Paragon3/Bladesinger10 is the other and yeilds +17BAB and CL16(20). Someone can probably come up with a better swashbukler build but thats the best i can think of right now. So what do you think, I am interested to hear some of your opinions and see some of your builds.
scrollreader 10-07-04, 03:13 AM	Um. I can come up with a better bladesinger with the class the way it is. BAB 16, and CL 17. Practiced caster doesn't give you access to the higher level spells. So it's essentially worthless, to a serious gish.
Sir Gummibaerchen 10-07-04, 03:44 AM	Um. I can come up with a better bladesinger with the class the way it is. BAB 16, and CL 17. Practiced caster doesn't give you access to the higher level spells. So it's essentially worthless, to a serious gish. Yeah, 4 more rounds of duration for 1rd/lvl buff's is SO not worth it. Or 4d6 more damage on chain lightning, delayed blasst fireball, horrid willting ...
scrollreader 10-07-04, 03:59 AM	It's not worthless. That was perhaps, overhasty of me, Hooooam? However. It's vertainly no substitute for actual gains of levels of +1 caster.
Qaetar 10-07-04, 08:51 AM	CL 16: 1 round/level buffs last 16 rounds... CL 20: 1 round/level buffs last 20 rounds... Average combat lasts 3 - 12 rounds... Not close to worth a feat. 4d6 damage for Fireball... Oops, that one's capped at 10d6. 4d6 damage for Chain Lightning... Not bad. Potentially 44d6 if there are 20 secondary targets. Maybe worth a feat, but I've always found myself short on feats for Gish. Against a BBEG? +6 to attack and +6d4 damage might be better. And I'm always worried about BBEGs more than the hoards of mooks. It's probably worth it if you use a lot of level-scaling spells without caps at 10 or 15 CL, especially spells with many targets. (Qaetar)
Lord Arkhaven 10-07-04, 09:07 AM	Sounds like you boys don't play high level games very much, just talk about making characters for them. Almost everything with with a CR 15+ has Spell Resistance. That becomes a huge issue when chucking DB Fireballs and Horrid Wilting spells. If a gish can't beat SR their spells are only good for buffing. Practiced Spellcaster is the same as getting both Spell Penetration feats when it comes to your caster level. It's a great feat if your build lets you squeeze it in.
Snicker-Snack 10-07-04, 09:18 AM	That becomes a huge issue when chucking DB Fireballs and Horrid Wilting spells. If a gish can't beat SR their spells are only good for buffing. Truth is, using SR:Yes spells with Gishes is shooting yourself in the foot IMO. As a gish, most of the spells i use are either buffing spells or Offensive/battlefiel control spells with SR: No.
Dain 10-07-04, 09:47 AM	I find Practiced Spellcaster mandatory for any gish for the same reasons as Lord Arkhaven, and a few more: CL 16: 1 round/level buffs last 16 rounds... CL 20: 1 round/level buffs last 20 rounds... Average combat lasts 3 - 12 rounds... This is just the classic Optimisation Board *crap* (no offense intended). You automatically assume that we're talking about level 20 when everyone plays between level 1 and 15 anyway, where a duration difference of 4 rounds matters *a lot*. What does it matter what you look like at level 20 when you're dead at level 10 because your Greater Invisibility spell ran out before the battle was over? Truth is, using SR:Yes spells with Gishes is shooting yourself in the foot IMO. As a gish, most of the spells i use are either buffing spells or Offensive/battlefiel control spells with SR: No. If you use the popular Spellsword PrC you also need it bypass SR with your channel spell ability. - Dain
Dain 10-07-04, 10:00 AM	The title of your post suggests that you think that the Bladesinger should have been what it is now PLUS full spellcasting progression. While I agree that it could need a little power up I seriously think that gaining full casting progression would be to go too far. I hope you're aware of the fact that you're gonna make a pretty broken character. Anyway, for your requested build: 1)Swashbuckler - Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus Rapier 2)Fighter - Dodge 3)Swashbuckler - Grace +1, Combact Casting 4)Fighter - Combat Expertise 5)Swashbuckler - Insightful strike 6)Wizard - Scribe Scroll Strike, Practiced Spellcaster 7)Bladesinger Bladesong 8)Bladesinger Lesser Spellsong 9)Bladesinger - Mobility 10)Bladesinger - Song of Celerity (2nd) 11)Bladesinger - 12)Bladesinger - Greater Spellsong, Spring Attack 13)Bladesinger - 14)Bladesinger - Song of Celerity (4th) 15)Bladesinger - Arcane Strike 16)Bladesinger - Song of Fury 17)Spellsword 18)Eldritch Knight - Improved Crit (Rapier), Improved Toughness 19)Eldritch Knight 20)Eldritch Knight There you go. BAB 19, CL 14 (18). With intelligence to AC + Dmg and CL 14 this guy is gonna kick some serious booty. Alternately, if you want more caster levels go: Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 10/Eldritch Knight 3 for decent combat ability, BAB 18 and CL 17. That's the two best options I can think of. - Dain
mzprox 10-07-04, 10:09 AM	3 swashbuckler 2 wizard 3 elfparagon 10 bladesinger 2 wizard prc (2cl, 1 bab) ------------- cl:16 bab:17 maybe not the best, but you get +2 int which goes to ac, dmg, spelldc, bonus spells etc :)
Lord Arkhaven 10-07-04, 10:14 AM	Truth is, using SR:Yes spells with Gishes is shooting yourself in the foot IMO. As a gish, most of the spells i use are either buffing spells or Offensive/battlefiel control spells with SR: No. I agree. Another thing Practiced Spellcaster is invaluable for is for your buff spells to live through a targetted Dispel Magic. A straight wizard or cleric is going to strip a gish clean. Those +4 caster levels mean you might keep your buffs. It's a great feat and those who've seen it in actual play know it.
Eyeless Blond 10-07-04, 10:44 AM	Indeed, I'd say it's worth it even if it only went up to +2 per feat. You're getting a boost to: -Spell durations -Spell effects dependent on level, including --damage for damage spells --bonuses for level-dependent buffs -SR checks -dispell checks (on both sides of the equation) plus more. At +2 it would be a bargain as opposed to say Spell Penetration, but at +4 I can't imagine an impure caster that wouldn't want it, a sure sign that it may be too good.
Dain 10-07-04, 11:38 AM	but at +4 I can't imagine an impure caster that wouldn't want it, a sure sign that it may be too good. No. You got it wrong. It's the primary caster that's too good. The feat was designed so that it might actually *almost* be worth it to be a multiclass caster. But even with Practiced Spellcaster you're probably still gonna get beaten up by a straight caster like a druid, cleric or wizard. - Dain
Qaetar 10-07-04, 12:25 PM	This is just the classic Optimisation Board *crap* (no offense intended). You automatically assume that we're talking about level 20 when everyone plays between level 1 and 15 anyway... Well, in most Gish builds I've seen, Practiced Spellcaster shows up around level 15 because there are better, more pressing feats to take. (Qaetar)
Dain 10-07-04, 12:46 PM	Well, in most Gish builds I've seen, Practiced Spellcaster shows up around level 15 because there are better, more pressing feats to take. (Qaetar) It's not because there are better, more pressing feats to take. It's because people always think that they need a lot of spellcasting levels before Practiced Spellcaster becomes worth it, their logic being that it has greater effect the more spells you have. This is highly questionable, however. In a standard Ftr 2/Wiz 4 Spellsword prefix with the 2 fighter levels taken first I would *always* take Practiced Spellcaster at 3rd level along with the first wizard level. 3 hours of mage armor instead of one really makes a big difference. All your spells are at 200 % the effect they would have been. [EDITED because of writing when drunk... or stupid... or something... ;)] Anyway, whether you take it very early or just plain early (because taking it late is a huge mistake), it's a no-brainer for any gish. For reasoning look at the above posts in this thread. - Dain
scrollreader 10-07-04, 01:05 PM	Again, maybe this is my bias from my games, and my type of play style ... But 1/round buffs last long enough by the time I'm in eldritch knight for it to not be a serious issue for me. Also, do remember that it's only a +4 if you've got /4/ non casting levels. I tend for archer or otherwise spellheavy gish, meaning, at best, I get 2 levels out of it. Also, pre-reqs eat most of my feats. It's a nice feat to have for a gish, sure. but so is improved toughness. And if they were handed out for free, who wouldn't take them? But between meeting pre-reqs and good feats like Arcane Strike, I find I rarely have room until it becomes a mostly moot point, at level 15+
shadow mage 10-07-04, 05:34 PM	Actually, I’d like to interject with a point for the debate as to whether or not Practiced Spellcaster is useful. The primary use for the feat, I find, is not for purposes of extending time periods buff spells and the like last, but rather to increase damage. It is a valid argument that battles, regardless of level, will last an average of 3-5 rounds and there will be an average of 4 of these encounters per day. That’s roughly 12-20 rounds worth of combat in a day. To prove my point about damage increase using Practiced Spellcaster, I’ll use a 12th level straight spellcaster as an example. Spell Damage by Dice 12d4, minimum 12, average 30, maximum 48 12d6, minimum 12, average 42, maximum 72 12d8, minimum 12, average 54, maximum 96 Now for spells who’s affects can increase past 10th level (discluding spells such as fireball, lightning bolt, etc. since they do not increase beyond 10 damage dice) that are affected by Practiced Spellcaster. 16d4, minimum 16, average 40, maximum 64 16d6, minimum 16, average 56, maximum 96 16d8, minimum 16, average 72, maximum 128 The average damage dealt is increased by about 25% for damage dealing spells regardless of level. Not bad, but not great either. My Conclusion Curiously, the lower the potential damage, the more useful this is. The earlier you take the feat, the more useful it is, as the benefits of Practiced Spellcaster diminish rapidly. Below is a list of levels 5-12 of the amount of damage LESS a damage-dealing spell will do without Practiced Spellcaster compared to an equal level spellcaster with the feat. 5th --- 45% less 6th --- 40% less 7th --- 37% less 8th --- 34% less 9th --- 31% less 10th --- 29% less 11th --- 27% less 12th --- 25% less Practiced Spellcaster is best employed early with the earliest (and in my opinion most useful) possible damage increasing metamagic feat: Empower Spell. Below is a small chart exploring the effects of a 9th-level caster with and without Empower Spell and Practiced Spellcaster and with both. Sample spells by 9th-level Wizard Normal Practiced Spellcaster Empower Spell Practiced Spellcaster + Empower Spell cone of cold 9d6 (31.5) 13d6 (45.5) N/A N/A fireball 7d6 (24.5) 10d6 (35) (+50%) +12.25 10d6 + 50% (52.5) scorching ray 2 rays, 8d6 (28) 4 rays, 16d6 (56) (+50%) +14 4 rays, 16d6 + 50% (84) vampiric touch 4d6 (14) 6d6 (21) (+50%) +7 6d6 + 50% (31.5) MOVING BACK TO THE MAIN TOPIC The swashbuckler builds are for wizard/bladesingers because swashbuckler and wizard are simply meant to be blended and do so superbly, even at the loss of an extra spellcasting level for that favored Insightful Strike. I suggest looking at the thread in my sig regarding good gish builds, as many of them could easily substitute a few levels of this or that for a few levels of bladesinger. If you're going for the optimal fighting/casting build, straight bladesinger is not an option. I hope the thread can provide the help you're looking for (and a peek in would be more then enough to help anyone realize why a PrC like bladesinger should not recieve full spellcasting as you alluded to in your mention of the 2E Bladesinger).
Qaetar 10-07-04, 05:47 PM	In a standard Ftr 2/Wiz 4 Spellsword prefix with the 2 fighter levels taken first I would *always* take Practiced Spellcaster at 3rd level along with the first wizard level. 5 hours of mage armor instead of one really makes a big difference. And if you do cast that magic missile spell it'll be 3 missiles instead of one. Ahem, proof of ignorance. Your caster level is capped at your Hit Dice with Practiced Spellcaster. So you'd have 3 hours of mage armor and an extra 1d4 damage with Magic Missile. You might be able to convince me that a Paladin 4/Sorc 2 should take Practiced Spellcaster at level 6, but I'd rather have Divine Might. (Qaetar)
shadow mage 10-07-04, 06:04 PM	Ahem, proof of ignorance. Your caster level is capped at your Hit Dice with Practiced Spellcaster. So you'd have 3 hours of mage armor and an extra 1d4 damage with Magic Missile. You might be able to convince me that a Paladin 4/Sorc 2 should take Practiced Spellcaster at level 6, but I'd rather have Divine Might. (Qaetar) Oi, easy with flaming Qaetar, he likely doesn't have access to the feat from its source. I don't, all I know is that it effectively adds +4 to your caster level and very simply all you need to do is add a few character levels (more Ftr levels?) in front of the mentioned build to give it more levels and make it better use of Practiced Spellcaster. How about your Paladin4/Sorcerer2 takes...both?
cryptictravler 10-07-04, 08:27 PM	His point was it doesn't add +4. If it did, everyone would take it, especially straight spellcasters. It only adds 4 if you have 4 non caster levels. Very few gish have that. For a swashbuckler you will most likely have 3, just enough for intuitive strike. For them I would say sure, especially if you find yourself needing to use spells directly. For many if not most gish you have 1 or 2 non caster levels and at that point it become less attractive.
Eyeless Blond 10-07-04, 08:44 PM	Actually the spellsword one would likely be missing 4, because the first level of EK doesn't continue arcane progression. A Paladin/sorc will be missing 3, and the traditional wiz/ftr will be missing 2. My point was that even making up for 2 levels is well worth the feat, let alone 4. Just the boost to dispell and SR checks makes it worthwhile, not to mention the extra duration and damage. The only time it really becomes questionable is if you use that Militia cheese to qualify for EK, landing you with a caster level of one less than your level.
Qaetar 10-07-04, 10:14 PM	Oi, easy with flaming Qaetar... How about your Paladin4/Sorcerer2 takes...both? Saying someone is ignorant of the rules is not a flame. In this case, it is a statement of obvious fact. You could take both, but like I said, Pal 4/Sor 2 would be the most obvious build I see Practiced Spellcaster useful. Any other and it's gonna be at the end of the build. Good quick analysis on the feat though, shadow mage. However, as you showed, PS is not a very good scaling feat, unlike Power Attack, Divine Might, Arcane Strike. After those three, you may need Iron Will and/or Dodge for a PrC. Bladesinger requires Combat Casting and Combat Expertise, two not-that amazing feats for a Gish. Most people will want Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration. Depending on style, maybe Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus. What I see as the best uses for Practiced Spellcaster? Scorching Ray, due to its erratic caster level scaling. But then it's only useful from levels 3 through 10 and I would have taken it at 9. Two levels of use doesn't seem right to me. (Qaetar)
dawgfan 10-07-04, 10:23 PM	I understand full and well the workings of the practiced spellcaster feat and have employed it in my game. I realise that nothing beats an actual caster level, but PS makes that loss a lot less detremental to a charecter. And to repeat what has been stated before, PS is not just about the extra damage but defeating SR, blocking dispels, and extending ranges and times of spells. But with that said I appreciate all the critiqes and builds of the thread.
Cold Napalm 10-08-04, 02:21 AM	Actually any gish build would be better off taking practiced spell caster over spell penetration as it raises their check by at least 2 (since just about any gish build has 2 CL missing at least) and as much as 4. Oh my favorite reason to get practiced spell caster for gish...vampiric touch. The spell caps at 10d6 at CL 20.
Dain 10-08-04, 04:35 AM	Ahem, proof of ignorance. Your caster level is capped at your Hit Dice with Practiced Spellcaster. So you'd have 3 hours of mage armor and an extra 1d4 damage with Magic Missile. I know. It was a mistake. I was certain that I was talking about the bladesinger prefix Swb 3/Ftr 2/Wiz 1 and 6th level, in which case the argument holds water. Embarrasing. Anyway, I would take it to gain the quoted benefits too, Qaetar. As I say in my edited post taking it at Ftr 2/Wiz 1 Practiced Spellcaster means that all you spells are at 200 % the effect. And I don't agree fully with shadow mage. I think that the feat still is a no brainer at the high levels - especially because of the dreaded Dispel Magic. How about your Paladin4/Sorcerer2 takes...both? shadow mage, you seem to think that sorcerors gain some kind of bonus feat or something. This isn't the first time I've seen you post something odd like this. In this thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=318519 both of your build examples grant some kind of imaginary bonus feat at sor 1. Care to explain yourself? :) - Dain
Dain 10-08-04, 05:32 AM	After those three, you may need Iron Will and/or Dodge for a PrC. Bladesinger requires Combat Casting and Combat Expertise, two not-that amazing feats for a Gish. Most people will want Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration. Depending on style, maybe Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus.(My emphasis) Okay, I might have made a mistake before, but this one isn't exactly something to be proud of either. Practiced Spellcaster dublicates both emphazised feats and at the same time gives you so many other benefits: - increased buff durations - more damage with spells and channel spell - highly increased protection from dispell (one of the most important, imo) - Access to more powerful polymorph forms earlier (which hasn't been mentioned yet, but is of very high importance for any gish, imo) There are so many good reasons to take that feat. I really can't see why you wouldn't want it. At all. - Dain
Dain 10-08-04, 05:46 AM	and a peek in would be more then enough to help anyone realize why a PrC like bladesinger should not recieve full spellcasting as you alluded to in your mention of the 2E Bladesinger shadow mage - you are aware how much the CW Bladesinger has been flamed, mocked at, exiled and so on and so forth on this board, right? None of the regulars find it to their liking. The only regular I have ever seen post a build which contained the CW Bladesinger was JK, and he kinda had to try his best shot at the danged thing because he started his gish thread (His build was Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS1/BS 5/EK 8, I believe). He never said that it was powerful. It is still a mediocre PrC that could need a slight power up. - Dain
shadow mage 10-08-04, 07:03 AM	shadow mage - you are aware how much the CW Bladesinger has been flamed, mocked at, exiled and so on and so forth on this board, right? None of the regulars find it to their liking. The only regular I have ever seen post a build which contained the CW Bladesinger was JK, and he kinda had to try his best shot at the danged thing because he started his gish thread (His build was Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS1/BS 5/EK 8, I believe). He never said that it was powerful. It is still a mediocre PrC that could need a slight power up. - Dain Oh I never said it was a powerful class. Spellsword, rage mage, and eldritch knight far surpass it in usefulness in that area of character building. It just isn't as bad as people might make it out to be. Tweaking with and adding a couple abilities (as well as changing prerequisite feats some) is all that's really needed, I was simply pointing out that full spellcasting would not be appropriate for that sort of class. Actually, 2/3's spellcasting might even work, since it is underpowered for its prerequisites, but not full spellcasting.
Dain 10-08-04, 09:29 AM	I was simply pointing out that full spellcasting would not be appropriate for that sort of class. Actually, 2/3's spellcasting might even work, since it is underpowered for its prerequisites, but not full spellcasting. I agree. :) - Dain
Mommy was an Orc 10-08-04, 10:16 AM	Yikes...you do realize it is possible for a wizard who takes those feats to qualify for the class without taking a level of any martial class or a martial class while barely taking any arcane levels. Wizard 6/Divine Oracle 4/Loremaster 2/Bladesinger 8. What Wizards really needs to do is make a lot of the half casters similar to the Hospitaler progression. Lose a level, then gain 3, etc...kills dips, encourages full progression. Seeing as I loved 2ed bladesingers and the fact that imo they didnt get a proper 3ed conversion, I ask you guys this. What would be some of your CW BS builds if they recieved +1 caster level at every level.
shadow mage 10-08-04, 11:51 AM	Yikes...you do realize it is possible for a wizard who takes those feats to qualify for the class without taking a level of any martial class or a martial class while barely taking any arcane levels. Wizard 6/Divine Oracle 4/Loremaster 2/Bladesinger 8. What Wizards really needs to do is make a lot of the half casters similar to the Hospitaler progression. Lose a level, then gain 3, etc...kills dips, encourages full progression. Which is to say you end up with a character that has +14 Base Attack and a wizard Caster Level of 16. Having become pretty familiar with gish of late, that build would suck. The part that hurts the bladesinger most is its feat requirements. It asks for two amazingly useless feats (Combat Casting and Dodge), and the remaining feats are taxing for any character who wants to enter the class. The most unsuccessful aspect of bladesingers, then, is they are too weak for the pisspoor prerequisites, which is why I suggest the staggered spell progression. Levels one, three, four, six, seven, nine and ten would give a spellcasting level, which would emphasize the developement of a primarily spell-focused PrC (since this is not a focused martial PrC). Anyway, just rambling.
Mommy was an Orc 10-08-04, 12:32 PM	According to his proposed rule change, Wizard 6/Divine Oracle 4/Loremaster 2/Bladesinger 8 is caster level of 20...yes, the current version sucks, but full caster progression, particularly with 'evasion' and uncanny dodge from Divine Oracle and the good reflex saves/AC bonus from Bladesinger is worth a lot... Which is to say you end up with a character that has +14 Base Attack and a wizard Caster Level of 16.
shadow mage 10-08-04, 01:01 PM	Hence my suggestion of the staggered spell progression...Which using your sample build would equate to a BAB +14 (still icky for gish builds) and a CL of 17, at least allowing for access to 9th level spells in exchange for the slightly lower Base Attack. Hm...I think that's balanced...