Bladesingers... optimizing for melee [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bladesingers... optimizing for melee [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DeadEye
10-08-03, 01:07 AM Hi there. Well, starting another character soon and for some reason, there's no other people planning on playing a melee character. So, since I've been wanting to try a bladesinger for quite a while, it's fallen to me to try and maximise my bladesinger for melee rather than spellcasting.

My stats are as follows:

Str: 12
Dex: 15
Con: 16
Int: 17
Wis: 16
Cha: 13

These are base stats, and unfortunately are fixed, so I can't move them around.

Anyway, from what I've picked up from the archived topics:-

1) Bards are better than wizards for melee-bladesingers
2) To be a bard-bladesinger, half-elves are strongly recommended
3) Elves are pretty much wizard-bladesingers due to XP-loss if they take bard
4) Fighter 4 seems to be important for meleeing

Now, my stats will be as I said above if I go half-elf. There's a few other possibilities, however:

High Elf:

Str: 12
Dex: 17
Con: 14
Int: 17
Wis: 16
Cha: 13

Wood Elf:

Str: 14
Dex: 17
Con: 14
Int: 15
Wis: 16
Cha: 11

Grey Elf:

Str: 10
Dex: 17
Con: 14
Int: 19
Wis: 16
Cha: 13

Wild Elf:

Str: 12
Dex: 17
Con: 16
Int: 15
Wis: 16
Cha: 13

Looking at all these, I'm really not sure which to use. I know that a Ftr4/Wiz2 will work for all of these, whereas a Ftr4/Brd2 will only work for the half-elf. I'm mostly not sure as to what a melee bladesinger ultimately needs the most of statswise.

It seems that a high dex Elf would need Weapon Finesse, but that adds an extra feat to the high requirements of the bladesinger as it is. From what I understand, my int apparently should be as high as possible, since that's extra spells and AC. So far, the Grey Elf looks promising, but I'm a bit concerned about the absolute lack of a Strength modifier, which seems kind of crucial for a melee build of any sort.

So anyway, what would people suggest as a melee-oriented bladesinger build? What sub-race should I choose? What would you recommend as good equipment to aim for? Any advice you have on the subject would be welcomed. Thanks in advance.
catharz
10-08-03, 01:14 AM All [good] Bladesinger builds are meele-oriented. Search around and find a few that you like, then tweak them to fit what you have/want. With your stats I would reccomend a wizard or assassin bladesinger, as your Cha ain't goin' nowhere (and skip the HL too).
goblinhero
10-08-03, 01:20 AM the reason for half elf bard bladesinger is because the set up doesn't draw a xp penalty.
and the half elf that I'd use is half drow for the 60 darkvision.

melee based bladesinger, I've been thinking about using the Kensai variant fighter from Dragon 310. prolly sun elf.
wiz 1/kensai 5/bladesinger 10/XX
it'll net you a extra +2 to attack and damage.
JosephKell
10-08-03, 02:01 AM Originally posted by goblinhero
the reason for half elf bard bladesinger is because the set up doesn't draw a xp penalty.
and the half elf that I'd use is half drow for the 60 darkvision.

melee based bladesinger, I've been thinking about using the Kensai variant fighter from Dragon 310. prolly sun elf.
wiz 1/kensai 5/bladesinger 10/XX
it'll net you a extra +2 to attack and damage. Half-Drow might not be worth the social stigma... but I like that you are starting to draw on the Munchkin side of the Min/Maxing (it is stronger! Maximize the stuff you can't roleplay through... minimize the social skills and roleplay those so far over the top the DM wets his or her pants when you do an Intimidate check!)

Kensei is also blatant Min/Maxing... go for it! As a Bladesinger you don't need medium or heavy armor... nor shields...

But be aware: The Kensei doesn't gain a bonus feat at level 1! Instead they gain a +1 to hit and +1 damage with their Kensei damage... so if I were to use your stats for a Half-Elf Kensei Bladesinger Bard...

Half-Elf

Str: 13
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 17
Wis: 15
Cha: 12 (You aren't going to go much more into Bard... but if you decide to... then swift Wisdom and Charisma; the 13 Strength allows you to take Power Attack and Cleave if you decide to down the line -- It is GOOD to allow the option)

Ftr = Kensei Fighter Variant.
1 Brd 1: Dodge
2 Brd 2:
3 Brd 2/Ftr 1: Combat Casting, +1 damage with Rapier or Longsword (choose one and stick to it)
4 Brd 2/Ftr 2: Ftr Bonus Feat (Weapon Focus (Rapier or Longsword) )
5 Brd 2/Ftr 3:
6 Brd 2/Ftr 4: Combat Casting, Ftr Bonus Feat (Combat Expertise)
7 Brd 2/Ftr 4/Bld 1: Bladesong... and go from here...
DeadEye
10-08-03, 11:36 AM The problem is that I can't manipulate my stats, as that's what I rolled. The DM's gone for a fixed roll for stats, as in, I roll for strength, then dex, then con, etc etc.

So I can't actually move any scores around.

Also, you've listed combat casting twice, which probably means one of them should be still spell :)

One question: is it worth going the normal elf - wiz2/ftr4 progression and picking up mage armour and true strike early, knowing that they'll be duplicated early? I know for a fact that this character is going to be pretty sucky in melee for a while because of my cruddy to hit bonus (currently a +5 at 3rd level, +6 with inspire courage), so I'm pondering whether 2 or 3 true strikes will make up for that... I mean, if I go a wood elf that picks up at least a little with the strength bonus. I must admit, they're definitely not maximised stats by any means...
mshufeldt
11-01-06, 02:19 PM It looks like this thread is quite old now, but I have been playing a melee bladesinger for some time based upon bard. As a matter of good fortune, my DM wanted me to play a Star Elf, since we are using the phaerim backdrop. The Star Elf's favored class is bard.

My character is not fully min/max'd due to flavor, but I am, after many months of play, Bard 4/Fighter2/Bladesinger 8. I have gone the spring attack route and added arcane strike for damage reasons. With improved invisbility and spring attack, he can take most fighters in a duel, although he cannot match the "big" damage guys in mass combat.
Zappa
11-01-06, 03:38 PM I would recommend playing as a high elf:

1 - Swashbuckler 1
2 - Wizard 1
3 - Elf Paragon 1
4 - Swashbuckler 2
5 - Swashbuckler 3
6 - Elf Paragon 2
7 - Elf Paragon 3
8 - Bladesinger 1
9 - Bladesinger 2
10 - Bladesinger 3
11 - Bladesinger 4
12 - Spellsword 1
13 - Dragon Slayer 1

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeadEye 10-08-03, 01:07 AM	Hi there. Well, starting another character soon and for some reason, there's no other people planning on playing a melee character. So, since I've been wanting to try a bladesinger for quite a while, it's fallen to me to try and maximise my bladesinger for melee rather than spellcasting. My stats are as follows: Str: 12 Dex: 15 Con: 16 Int: 17 Wis: 16 Cha: 13 These are base stats, and unfortunately are fixed, so I can't move them around. Anyway, from what I've picked up from the archived topics:- 1) Bards are better than wizards for melee-bladesingers 2) To be a bard-bladesinger, half-elves are strongly recommended 3) Elves are pretty much wizard-bladesingers due to XP-loss if they take bard 4) Fighter 4 seems to be important for meleeing Now, my stats will be as I said above if I go half-elf. There's a few other possibilities, however: High Elf: Str: 12 Dex: 17 Con: 14 Int: 17 Wis: 16 Cha: 13 Wood Elf: Str: 14 Dex: 17 Con: 14 Int: 15 Wis: 16 Cha: 11 Grey Elf: Str: 10 Dex: 17 Con: 14 Int: 19 Wis: 16 Cha: 13 Wild Elf: Str: 12 Dex: 17 Con: 16 Int: 15 Wis: 16 Cha: 13 Looking at all these, I'm really not sure which to use. I know that a Ftr4/Wiz2 will work for all of these, whereas a Ftr4/Brd2 will only work for the half-elf. I'm mostly not sure as to what a melee bladesinger ultimately needs the most of statswise. It seems that a high dex Elf would need Weapon Finesse, but that adds an extra feat to the high requirements of the bladesinger as it is. From what I understand, my int apparently should be as high as possible, since that's extra spells and AC. So far, the Grey Elf looks promising, but I'm a bit concerned about the absolute lack of a Strength modifier, which seems kind of crucial for a melee build of any sort. So anyway, what would people suggest as a melee-oriented bladesinger build? What sub-race should I choose? What would you recommend as good equipment to aim for? Any advice you have on the subject would be welcomed. Thanks in advance.
catharz 10-08-03, 01:14 AM	All [good] Bladesinger builds are meele-oriented. Search around and find a few that you like, then tweak them to fit what you have/want. With your stats I would reccomend a wizard or assassin bladesinger, as your Cha ain't goin' nowhere (and skip the HL too).
goblinhero 10-08-03, 01:20 AM	the reason for half elf bard bladesinger is because the set up doesn't draw a xp penalty. and the half elf that I'd use is half drow for the 60 darkvision. melee based bladesinger, I've been thinking about using the Kensai variant fighter from Dragon 310. prolly sun elf. wiz 1/kensai 5/bladesinger 10/XX it'll net you a extra +2 to attack and damage.
JosephKell 10-08-03, 02:01 AM	Originally posted by goblinhero the reason for half elf bard bladesinger is because the set up doesn't draw a xp penalty. and the half elf that I'd use is half drow for the 60 darkvision. melee based bladesinger, I've been thinking about using the Kensai variant fighter from Dragon 310. prolly sun elf. wiz 1/kensai 5/bladesinger 10/XX it'll net you a extra +2 to attack and damage. Half-Drow might not be worth the social stigma... but I like that you are starting to draw on the Munchkin side of the Min/Maxing (it is stronger! Maximize the stuff you can't roleplay through... minimize the social skills and roleplay those so far over the top the DM wets his or her pants when you do an Intimidate check!) Kensei is also blatant Min/Maxing... go for it! As a Bladesinger you don't need medium or heavy armor... nor shields... But be aware: The Kensei doesn't gain a bonus feat at level 1! Instead they gain a +1 to hit and +1 damage with their Kensei damage... so if I were to use your stats for a Half-Elf Kensei Bladesinger Bard... Half-Elf Str: 13 Dex: 16 Con: 16 Int: 17 Wis: 15 Cha: 12 (You aren't going to go much more into Bard... but if you decide to... then swift Wisdom and Charisma; the 13 Strength allows you to take Power Attack and Cleave if you decide to down the line -- It is GOOD to allow the option) Ftr = Kensei Fighter Variant. 1 Brd 1: Dodge 2 Brd 2: 3 Brd 2/Ftr 1: Combat Casting, +1 damage with Rapier or Longsword (choose one and stick to it) 4 Brd 2/Ftr 2: Ftr Bonus Feat (Weapon Focus (Rapier or Longsword) ) 5 Brd 2/Ftr 3: 6 Brd 2/Ftr 4: Combat Casting, Ftr Bonus Feat (Combat Expertise) 7 Brd 2/Ftr 4/Bld 1: Bladesong... and go from here...
DeadEye 10-08-03, 11:36 AM	The problem is that I can't manipulate my stats, as that's what I rolled. The DM's gone for a fixed roll for stats, as in, I roll for strength, then dex, then con, etc etc. So I can't actually move any scores around. Also, you've listed combat casting twice, which probably means one of them should be still spell :) One question: is it worth going the normal elf - wiz2/ftr4 progression and picking up mage armour and true strike early, knowing that they'll be duplicated early? I know for a fact that this character is going to be pretty sucky in melee for a while because of my cruddy to hit bonus (currently a +5 at 3rd level, +6 with inspire courage), so I'm pondering whether 2 or 3 true strikes will make up for that... I mean, if I go a wood elf that picks up at least a little with the strength bonus. I must admit, they're definitely not maximised stats by any means...
mshufeldt 11-01-06, 02:19 PM	It looks like this thread is quite old now, but I have been playing a melee bladesinger for some time based upon bard. As a matter of good fortune, my DM wanted me to play a Star Elf, since we are using the phaerim backdrop. The Star Elf's favored class is bard. My character is not fully min/max'd due to flavor, but I am, after many months of play, Bard 4/Fighter2/Bladesinger 8. I have gone the spring attack route and added arcane strike for damage reasons. With improved invisbility and spring attack, he can take most fighters in a duel, although he cannot match the "big" damage guys in mass combat.
Zappa 11-01-06, 03:38 PM	I would recommend playing as a high elf: 1 - Swashbuckler 1 2 - Wizard 1 3 - Elf Paragon 1 4 - Swashbuckler 2 5 - Swashbuckler 3 6 - Elf Paragon 2 7 - Elf Paragon 3 8 - Bladesinger 1 9 - Bladesinger 2 10 - Bladesinger 3 11 - Bladesinger 4 12 - Spellsword 1 13 - Dragon Slayer 1