Post/Author/DateTime	Post
prototype00 04-20-06, 12:47 PM	Hmm, trying to make a blastificier here that won't give DMs an aneurysm. Here is the feat set up: Lysander Vown d'Cannith Human Artificer 17/ Cannith Wand Adept 3 "If weapons are instuments, then I'd much rather be a Conductor." Artificer1: Pointblank Shot/ Precise Shot/ Scribe Scroll Artificer2: Brew potion Artificer3: Favored in House (Cannith) / Craft Wondrous item Artificer4: Craft Homunculous/ Extraordinary Artisan Artificer5: Craft Magic Arms and Armor Artificer6: Craft Wand/ Empower Spell Artificer8: Twin Spell (Complete arcane) Artificer9: Craft Rod/ Wand Mastery Artificer9/CWA3: Least Dragonmark (Making)/ Heighten Spell Artificer12/CWA3: Craft Staff/ Legendary Artisan/ Quicken Spell Artificer14/CWA3: Forge Ring Artificer15/CWA3: Wand Surge Artificer16/CWA3: Extra Rings Weapons of choice: Wand of empowered scorching ray CL 7 10,500 gp cost 2*(3*6d6) with metamagic infusion (twinned) for 36d6 possible damage on one charge Wand of Force Orb (Complete Arcane) CL 7 21,000 gp cost 2*10d6 with twin spell for 20d6 possible damage, for those SR, incorporeal or energy resistant enemies Wand of Acid Orb (Complete Arcane) CL 10 30,000 gp cost As above 2*15d6 for 30d6 possible damage, for the enemies with SR or something that just refuses to die. Well thats all I got so far. I'm unhappy with the placement of the feats, so if anyone could suggest anything to reposition them, that would be good. Other than that, does anyone have any other suggestions? prototype00 P.s. If anyone wants to argue the metamagic stacking, I'm sure theres a better place than here for it. I personally like to follow the faq and the rules and therefore anything other than empower and maximize stacks.
Sir Gummibaerchen 04-20-06, 03:22 PM	I'm planning a blastificer myself at the moment, so I thought I'd drop in. I don't think CWA is worth going for. Sure it has some nice flavor, but ultimately it is worse than straight Artificer. My setup looks something like this: 1: Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan 3: Extend Spell 4: Persistent Spell 6: Quicken Spell 8: Wand Mastery 9: Twin Spell 12: Exceptional Artisan, Craft Construct 15: Extra Rings 16: Etch Schema 18: Improved Initiative 20: Chain Spell My blasting will already be good enough without dual draining wands, and those effigys, shredstorms and slaughterstone eviscerators go well with those persistent buffs.
Caelic 04-20-06, 03:36 PM	Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Blastificing is something a good Artificer build can do almost as an afterthought. I'd pick up Twin Spell much sooner; Twin, Quicken, and Persistent are, IMO, the holy troika of the Artificer. And, yes, you want Persistent, IMO, even for a "blastificer." Persistent Unfettered Heroism coupled with Wand Surge will make your life a WHOLE lot easier.
Pinky's brain 04-20-06, 03:54 PM	I don't think CWA is worth going for. Sure it has some nice flavor, but ultimately it is worse than straight Artificer.You get dual wand use without needing to expend feats, can draw wands as a free action, +1 to hit and a +3 to caster level and DC. Given that artificer levels after level 11 aren't all that it's a great PrC. Prototype, since you want to go easy on your DM I can understand persistent spell and craft construct not being in there ... but still, twin&quicken should really form the bases of your blastificing (apply quicken with metamagic item and twin with metamagic spell trigger). So get them by level 7. You don't really need persistent to pull off unfettered heroism cheeze BTW. Metamagic spell completion + quicken + minor schema of unfettered heroism works as well. Get etch schema, it's the bomb.
Caelic 04-20-06, 04:02 PM	True, Pinky, but that's more limited. I like having that extra action point every round, just in case I need it, you know? And Persistent certainly has uses and utility beyond Unfettered Heroism.
Xion16 04-20-06, 04:09 PM	*cough* persistant wraithstrike *cough* What was that? An artificer power-attacking with a greatsword?
Pinky's brain 04-20-06, 04:15 PM	Don't forget about divine power, master's touch and the metamagic spell trigger quickened heroics (powerattack). Real men don't have worry about things like BAB progression, proficiency and taking fighter feats.
Sir Gummibaerchen 04-20-06, 04:31 PM	Nah, I'd rather use persistent wraithstrike + bite of the werebear. It's all in one packet, as it is a druid spell. Anybody else realize that for a wizard, you have to combine your spells with some cleverness to get the most effect out of them. As a druid, you don't have to bother, your spells are already preoptimized... Glad thing the Arty can do anything anybody else can, except two levels earlier. And I don't say CWA is weak or something. It is good at what it does, which is blasting. Given the fact that you are already the equivalent of a magical cruise missile, sniper rifle or atomic strike (one twinned maximized energy admixtured repeated widened apocalypse from the sky please), it is really not worth losing 12000 craft reserve and a bonus feat.
Elderich 04-20-06, 04:59 PM	I can not agree on the CWA. I dont want to argue, but by the time you finish CWA, you would have had craft staff. And staffs are where it is at. And I am not talking about UMD abuse. CWA costs you feats and artificer progression. Granted the last 4 levels are optional, the DELAY in getting to 16 as an artificer is simply not worth going anywhere else. The balancing factor in an artificer is gold. Getting to fire more wand charges for even MORE gold expense only handicapps the artificer. Of course, if your group does not allow crafting your own custom staffs then ignore everything I said.
Pinky's brain 04-20-06, 05:06 PM	Craft reserve just isn't much of an issue, just lag a level for a while and you earn it all back. Staffs are only really great if your DM allows custom staffs, and you can always take craft staff as a feat (and later ditch it with psychic reformation).
Caelic 04-20-06, 05:23 PM	I agree with Elderich, in that I'd definitely try to hit at least level 12 in Artificer before I even considered taking a prestige class. After level 12, there's a bit more flexibility for me.
aelryinth 04-20-06, 08:07 PM	as a side note, you apply the Twin with metamagic Item and use metamagic spell trigger to use Quicken if need be. The CWA is pure blastificer cheese with dual wands. You are going to make your DM sit down and cry. I also believe it does NOT increase your artificer casting levels...but I could be mistaken. The metamagic feats you want as a Blastificer are Quicken (for the extra shot if need be), Empower (for making better wands..or staves!), and, if allowed, Twin Spell (your bread and butter for doubling the dmg/charge of your wands). Note that if you are allowed to take Persistent, you must also blow a slot on Extend Spell. If your DM allows Persistent Unfettered Heroism, your wand costs just went away, since you won't be burning wand charges at all (or 1/rd less). It's rather like allowing Persistent Wraithstrike...every attack is a brilliant weapon strike, and you get it all day? No sane DM is going to allow it. You are picking up your Artisan feats late...I'd get them earlier to take advantage of them. Unless you are starting at high level play, you should basically plan a character to level 10-12, and try to get all the key abilities you want by then. Anything after that is gravy and an extra. I regretfully suggest skipping CWA. While the wand level buff is nice, the dual wielding wands could break the game, and it doesn't increase your artificer casting level. Stay away from Persistent to keep some balance in the game, also, and make sure your DM knows what the combo of Twin and Quicken can do (4x normal wand damage for that round...60d6 of orb dmg at level 10 might make him swallow, and 72d6 of Empowered Scorching Ray make him sick). ==Aelryinth
prototype00 04-21-06, 02:00 AM	Hey, first time I double posted!
prototype00 04-21-06, 02:16 AM	Alright, tried to clean up the feats a bit for this build. I'd pick up Twin Spell much sooner; Twin, Quicken, and Persistent are, IMO, the holy troika of the Artificer. And, yes, you want Persistent, IMO, even for a "blastificer." Persistent Unfettered Heroism coupled with Wand Surge will make your life a WHOLE lot easier. I have managed to get the three blasting metamagics in earlier, by lvl 12 I have them all, and by lvl 8 I can do my basic empowered twinned scorching ray. I'm not all that keen on persistant spell, I guess I'm just thinking that most DMs might not be happy with it. (I did use it for my warforged bufficier though) And the whole unfettered heroism is just a bit too much to fit in. Prototype, since you want to go easy on your DM I can understand persistent spell and craft construct not being in there ... but still, twin&quicken should really form the bases of your blastificing (apply quicken with metamagic item and twin with metamagic spell trigger). So get them by level 7. You don't really need persistent to pull off unfettered heroism cheeze BTW. Metamagic spell completion + quicken + minor schema of unfettered heroism works as well. Get etch schema, it's the bomb. Hmm i might get etch schema in the place of legendary artisan (do you guys think this is a good idea?) And I took your advice and tried to get empower and twin earlier. The quicken feat is more of a last resort, everything that moves dies, option. I agree with Elderich, in that I'd definitely try to hit at least level 12 in Artificer before I even considered taking a prestige class. After level 12, there's a bit more flexibility for me. Really? I like to try to get a character to come into its own by lvl 12. But maybe you're right... i'll think about it. If your DM allows Persistent Unfettered Heroism, your wand costs just went away, since you won't be burning wand charges at all (or 1/rd less). It's rather like allowing Persistent Wraithstrike...every attack is a brilliant weapon strike, and you get it all day? No sane DM is going to allow it. Yeah, I was thinking so too. In fact if its too much of an issue, twinned spell can go, I'll use quicken in its place, using one extra charge, I guess. But complete arcane seems to be part of Eberron core as of Players guide so I guess it shouldn't be too much of a problem. You are picking up your Artisan feats late...I'd get them earlier to take advantage of them. Unless you are starting at high level play, you should basically plan a character to level 10-12, and try to get all the key abilities you want by then. Anything after that is gravy and an extra. About the artisan feats, the general consensus I've gotten so far is that the better ones are the exceptional and legendary artisan feats and of the two the exceptional artisan feat is slightly better, due to there being only one source of gold whereas artificiers have three sources of XP. Thus I moved exceptional up and legendary gets to stay where it is. Does anyone think this is a bad idea? As previously said, i might even drop legendary artisan entirely. I hope that doesn't hose my build. What do people with experience playing artificiers think? prototype00 P.s. I'm slightly worried about the globe of invulnerability series of spells. Is there any way to defeat them with wands? Otherwise they'll stop all my spell effects cold.
prototype00 04-21-06, 12:58 PM	Hmm, a couple of issues here, as mentioned before, these spells need to get through the globe of invulnerablility series of spells. I hear heighten spell is a good feat to use in these situations, so I might take out quickened spell (or twin spell if its a core + Eberron game) to be able to apply heighten to my wands via metamagic spell trigger. I'm also hoping to move wand surge up in the feat order, but I'm unable to figure what to move out of the way for it. Would it be a great benefit to move it to an earlier feat slot? Finally, I was reading the optimized artificer thread and was wondering if rapid infusion is really required for this character. It is nice to be sure, but does a human artificer really need any of his infusions cast right away? Can anyone come up with a situation that that would occur? prototype00
Mr. Dog 04-21-06, 02:56 PM	Casting weapon aug-personal to apply Bane for the creature type you're about to go beat up. That's what I would normally use it for.
prototype00 04-21-06, 11:11 PM	That makes sense. But I'm not quite sure a blastificier will get as much usage out of it, making your weapons bane, that is. On account of them using wands for the most part. Two more questions, 1.) With heighten spell and metamagic infusion, whats to stop someone making a wand of hold person say, have a save DC of 4000? Is there a ruling or particular method to not abuse this? I really just want the feat so I can get through gloves of invulnerability. (Actually now that I think about it, the other members of the party should be pulling their weight in a situation like that, so I might take heighten spell out) 2.) Does point blank shot apply to rays or the orb series of spells, i.e do I get +1 to hit and damage when attacking with my wands from within 30 ft? And if so how does this work out for scorching ray, does each ray get 1 extra damage? And if it does, is this damage multiplied by empower? (probably not, but I thought I'd ask) and what kind of damage is it? Thanks kindly for your answers. prototype00
Caelic 04-21-06, 11:34 PM	That makes sense. But I'm not quite sure a blastificier will get as much usage out of it, making your weapons bane, that is. On account of them using wands for the most part. Two more questions, 1.) With heighten spell and metamagic infusion, whats to stop someone making a wand of hold person say, have a save DC of 4000? Is there a ruling or particular method to not abuse this? I really just want the feat so I can get through gloves of invulnerability. (Actually now that I think about it, the other members of the party should be pulling their weight in a situation like that, so I might take heighten spell out) Simple: Heighten Spell caps at 9th level. Now, once you get EPIC Heighten Spell, all bets are off.
aelryinth 04-21-06, 11:42 PM	Heighten spell probably won't work, because you don't actually have phantom spell slots to 'lift' the spell to, and even if you did, a Wand can only store spells of 4th level...there's no metamagic 'cost' an infusion could pay. The best thing to do if you see a Globe of INvulnerability is a Wand of Fighterdoken +4, then pick a different target...or carry a backup staff of cone of cold or disinigration or something. You do know you can infuse staves too, right? Not sure how you can add +50% to +1 dmg, but yes, the feat adds +1 TH/DMg for all forms of ranged attacks...not per die. ==Aelryinth
prototype00 04-22-06, 12:21 AM	Heighten spell probably won't work, because you don't actually have phantom spell slots to 'lift' the spell to, and even if you did, a Wand can only store spells of 4th level...there's no metamagic 'cost' an infusion could pay. So there truly is no way to apply heighten to a wand via the metamagic item infusion as say persistant spell? Otherwise I was thinking of getting a wand of hold person or Tasha's hideous laughter. Almost as good as a staff at that point. Plus, if that is the case then Endymion's guide to the artificer is in error as I notice him using it as an example of good artificer feats to take. prototype00
Pinky's brain 04-22-06, 12:28 AM	Aelryinth, we have been over with ... you have never explained how heighten is special. What determines whether a spell can be put in a wand is the effective level of the spell including metamagic. Why can you apply quicken to a wand of scorching ray, but not heighten it to 9th level? In both cases the resulting spell can not fit in a wand. Heighten is not special, you can argue it can't be used with metamagic item ... but there is nothing to stop you from using it with metamagic spell trigger.
aelryinth 04-22-06, 12:44 AM	Because Metamagic infusion pays the cost of the feat. heighten has no cost...it actually has to occupy and become a spell of that slot. There is no stated 'cost'. How's the Infusion supposed to pay an unstated cost? Since we've been over the arguments, why are you asking again? Also, since the spell must actually become a spell of the higher slot, you can't Heighten above the limits of a wand...4th level spells...even if you invent a cost. A staff...maybe you could do 9th level spells, or maybe only the highest level spells in the staff. But you are now getting into sticky situations that entail a lot of creative interpretation of the existing rules, a 'slippery slope', as it were. Take a nod to the fact that Heighten doesn't have a stated cost you can pay with an infusion, and the problem takes care of itself. Otherwise, you have to start thinking about the limits and the possible abuse that can come of them. ==Aelryinth
prototype00 04-22-06, 12:55 AM	Lysander Vown d'Cannith Human Artificer 17/ Cannith Wand Adept 3 "If weapons are instuments, then I'd much rather be a Conductor." Artificer1: Pointblank Shot/ Precise Shot/ Scribe Scroll Artificer2: Brew potion Artificer3: Favored in House (Cannith) / Craft Wondrous item Artificer4: Craft Homunculous/ Extraordinary Artisan Artificer5: Craft Magic Arms and Armor Artificer6: Craft Wand/ Empower Spell Artificer8: Quicken Spell / (Or twin spell) Artificer9: Craft Rod/ Wand Mastery Artificer9/CWA3: Least Dragonmark (Making)/ Heighten Spell Artificer12/CWA3: Craft Staff/ Legendary Artisan/ Wand Surge Artificer14/CWA3: Forge Ring Artificer15/CWA3: Etch Schema Artificer16/CWA3: Extra Rings There, an entirely core and Eberron setting artificer. prototype00
Pinky's brain 04-22-06, 01:09 AM	Also, since the spell must actually become a spell of the higher slot, you can't Heighten above the limits of a wand...4th level spells...even if you invent a cost.A quickened scorching ray is also above the limit of a wand, it might not act like a 6th level spell in all ways ... but it acts like a 6th level spell in the only way which is important to whether it fits in a wand. Why can you quicken a wand of scorching ray with metamagic spell trigger?
prototype00 04-22-06, 01:51 AM	I don't mean to sound like a rampant rule bender here, but is that a no go for metamagic item infusion on a wand to heighten it to make the DCs higher? I was kind of hoping it would work. Part of the artificers make wands powerful routine. Anyone? prototype00
Sir Gummibaerchen 04-22-06, 01:56 AM	I would talk to your DM about it. As the rules are pretty silent about MST/MI and Heighten, I would suggest the same approach as Caelic: You can Heighten a spell up to 9th level.
Elderich 04-26-06, 01:57 PM	I would talk to your DM about it. As the rules are pretty silent about MST/MI and Heighten, I would suggest the same approach as Caelic: You can Heighten a spell up to 9th level.You and your DM should actualy sit down and read the feats together, to be very sure what they say or dont say. For example, heighten says in the text of the feat that you can only heighten a spell to 9th level. It is not Caelic's opinion that makes one consider this, it is the actual text of the feat.
prototype00 04-26-06, 11:03 PM	For example, heighten says in the text of the feat that you can only heighten a spell to 9th level. It is not Caelic's opinion that makes one consider this, it is the actual text of the feat. Well thats okay then. I can either use it to boost the caster level on the orb and scorching (infused to sonic) ray wands, or I could use it to make save or die wands much better. Either way, heighten spell is totally useful for artificers. On a related point, what are the best spells from core, complete, races and Eberron that are save or die and can be put in wands? Hold person and Tashia's hideous laughter have been mentioned. prototype00
Pinky's brain 04-26-06, 11:11 PM	At low level (extended/widened) colorspray or sandblast at DC23 could be handy, cheap too.
prototype00 05-02-06, 04:24 AM	Hmm, as I read through the SRD spell list, I notice that hold monster is a 4th level bard spell, perfect to put into a wand and then heighten to 9th level. Is there any other way besides CWA and wand mastery to up the save DC of a wand? A DC 24 will save isn't that hard to make sometimes, though it might trip up a troll or two. Thanks all, Prototype00 P.s. I feel like a doofus for not getting this, but could somebody elaborate on the usefulness of Etch Schema? Is it useful for the purpose of metamagic spell completion? Like a persistant righteous might and the like? Or is there something subtler that I'm not getting?
Subedei 05-02-06, 04:37 AM	You can use it for infusions, that's the important part. 2,250gp is all it takes to craft a 3rd level schema if I remember correctly (with artisan feats). That's all it costs to get another use/day of Metamagic Spell Trigger. So, for 22,500gp you could persist 10 additional spells that day, unrivelled!
prototype00 05-02-06, 04:50 AM	You can use it for infusions, that's the important part. 2,250gp is all it takes to craft a 3rd level schema if I remember correctly (with artisan feats). That's all it costs to get another use/day of Metamagic Spell Trigger. So, for 22,500gp you could persist 10 additional spells that day, unrivelled! But schemas aren't spell trigger items, they are spell completion if I read correctly. Thus they aren't affected by either metamagic spell trigger or metamagic item infusion because those two effects only specifically target spell trigger items. So they can only be boosted by metamagic spell completion, which is hard as I read it the DC is a killer. prototype00
Subedei 05-02-06, 05:12 AM	No, you create a Schema of Metamagic Item. The point of using Schema is their ability to hold infusions, allowing you to infuse Metamagic Item houndreds of times/day to persist every persistable buff known to man for free (past your initial investment).
prototype00 05-02-06, 08:28 AM	Ah, now I understand. That does make sense. However I did try not to use persistant spell in my builds, so it might not be as useful. I'll go through the infusion list again and see if there are good candidates for etch schema. As previously mentioned, does anyone have ideas of how to boost wand save DCs besides heighten spell, CWA and wand mastery? I have a wand of hold monster to pimp. ^_^ prototype00