Blind Spellcaster-Possible? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blind Spellcaster-Possible? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mr. Cheese
12-24-06, 06:59 PM I was just making a charactyer conept and she's blind. And a cleric. I couldn't think of any ways for that to work, so I came here.

Any crunchy methods for overcoming blindness?
Meek
12-24-06, 07:08 PM I was just making a charactyer conept and she's blind. And a cleric. I couldn't think of any ways for that to work, so I came here.

Any crunchy methods for overcoming blindness?

I made a Blind dragon shaman using these feats, and a blindfold that grants blindsight out to 10 ft (my DM and I agreed the 60 ft Blindsight one is too crazy).

Blindfight - Prerequisite for the rest
Hear The Unseen - Lets you pinpoint an opponent's square 30 ft away with a Listen check
Quick Reconnotier - Lets you make a listen check each round as a free action

From Complete Adventurer.

Also, clerics have a line of spells that grant Blindsight. That could be a big help, depending on the durations. If not, you can try extending them.
kabof
12-24-06, 07:15 PM "Blindsight, 5-foot radious" feat, from Sword and Fist do the trick.
runestar
12-24-06, 10:13 PM Dragon 297 - check out the grey sage prc. It revolves around the concept of a blind spellcaster.:)
Darhelion
12-26-06, 04:21 AM This is more a conceptual question specific to your character than a mechanical one, though it relates to D&D mechanics in general: Why is your character blind? Not just "what caused it", but why hasn't Remove Blindness been cast on her by her mentor (since she's a cleric), or why wouldn't that be an option for her to do to herself when she hits high enough level?

Not at all trying to rain on your concept. I like the idea of physical impairments on PCs - they can be fun to play. I'm just curious what your girl's story is.

As I'm assuming you don't want a one-spell solution to your blindness (since if you did, you'd leap at getting Remove Blindess, which kinda ruins the concept), I'll not suggest Polymorph or Alter Self (both of which grant average bodies - and most creatures' average bodies can see). I would, in fact, consider discussing with your DM whether your blindness carries over into other forms if you are (voluntarilly or not) shifted into them. If you get Baleful Polymorphed into a toad, are you a blind toad, or not?

As a side note, you may want to double-check the rules for blindness; I know deafness gives a spell failure chance on any spell with a verbal component, but I'm not sure if blindness does the same to somatic spells.

I'm sure you've already thought of some of these; it's just one of my areas of facination in D&D type settings - how disabilities work, especially in the "privelaged" population that invariably eventually includes the PCs. For that matter, how would bad eyesight work? Would Remove Blindness solve it, too? Or is that somehow worse than true blindness (assuming the blindness is not story-written to be uncurable by magic) because there's no cure?

It's late, and I should not be up, but now I'm probably going to see if I can create a homebrew (relatively simple) "Blind" template to apply to any sighted creature - the effort would be to make said creature permanently aflicted with the blinded condition, and give a couple flavorful mechanics to make it an overall +0 LA/+0 CR template. And have rules in place for what happens if the creature gains sight. Or if that's even possible, once the template's taken.

Sorry if this rambles off-topic, but good post, Mr. Cheese; it has me thinking. Thanks!
runestar
12-26-06, 07:55 AM Why is your character blind? Not just "what caused it", but why hasn't Remove Blindness been cast on her by her mentor (since she's a cleric), or why wouldn't that be an option for her to do to herself when she hits high enough level?
If she was born blind, I don't think restorative spells such as heal or remove blindness will work. Wish or miracle might work though...:P
Darhelion
12-26-06, 08:18 AM I don't see why they wouldn't, but if that's the way your game runs it, cool.
boombrakh
12-26-06, 08:24 AM #1
Dear , can I please have my eyes back?
[I]*miracle*
Presto!

#2
Here's your gold, mr wizard sir.
*wish*
Presto!

Playing a blind character is dumb and illogical in a world filled with magic wherever you turn. The only thing I can think or is if your character was cursed by a god or somesuch, but even then, it's possible to remove the curse via questing or whatever and then you are stuck with a bunch of feats that are awesome if you close your eyes.

EDIT: right, what runestar said.. just didn't read his post..

"+1"
Llochlyn
12-26-06, 08:36 AM Every time a person creates a thread on these boards about making a blind character, (insert dire kitten-related warning here).

I'm not the one who said it, but I couldn't agree more.

That said, I can understand why one would be appealed to such a concept... Thus, you'll be facing one friggin big problem for casting your spells. "Line of Sight". Duh.

There, you'll be unable to cast any spell that requires you to actually see the target. And if you overcome the blindness to be able to do that, there's then no point in roleplaying a blind man who can actually see. Meh...
runestar
12-26-06, 09:03 AM And if you overcome the blindness to be able to do that, there's then no point in roleplaying a blind man who can actually see. Meh...
Well, there is the immunity to gaze attacks and illusions...:D
Apocabramanic
12-26-06, 09:42 AM That said, I can understand why one would be appealed to such a concept... Thus, you'll be facing one friggin big problem for casting your spells. "Line of Sight". Duh.

Since he wants to play a cleric, he can possibly stay with pure buff and cure spells, most having a range of touch or personal. No problem with line of sight. And the already mentioned Blindfold of True Darkness costs a mere 8000 GP. It is a nice alternative to normal sight, if your fellow groupmembers don't stay speechless when the red wyrm appears in 61 ft. distance of you.
I am playing a character using the Blindfold, as well, and it's a give and take. Sometimes I miss a round, sometimes I get a surprise round, depending on the opponents. Most of the time, it's neither, though.
Darhelion
12-26-06, 12:06 PM Technically, you don't have to be able to see something for it to be in "line of sight". The "line of sight" phrase used in D&D means rather explicitly "unobstructed line", if you pay attention to how the Combat section of the PHB defines the term. It spends a couple paragraphs and a few diagrams on it.

You don't have to be able to see that invisible rogue to zot him with a scorching ray, but rays do require line-of-sight. (Sure, it helps to be able to see, since even if you know which square he's in, that 50% miss chance hurts, but it's not REQUIRED.)

That said, a blind cleric would probably be best focussing on buffs and healing when said healing is going to allies who come to him rather than he go to them. Blind-fight and/or that feat that gives blindsight to 5 ft. would make melee survivable for him, too, without overwhelmingly destroying the concept on playing a blind character.

As for the comments on magic making blindness "stupid" to discuss, I have two points to make: 1) Mr. Wizard demands a hefty sum of gp for his Wish, as does Mr. Cleric's church for the Miracle. Further, are you sure Mr. Wizard or Mr. Cleric are 17th level? Such high-level characters often have better things to do than wander around curing blindness. Even dealing with Remove Blindness, not every cleric is even high enough level to cast that, so poor little Nell may have to stay blind until one becomes available who is willing to cast it for her (assuming it works). This of course breaks down for PCs, since curing blindness can become trivial by 5th level if inborn blindness is Removable. If not, it might last a bit longer as the PC struggles to scrimp enough gp to pay for that Miracle/Wish. But either way, it's at least an interesting role-playing goal for the early game, and possibly for mid-to-late-game. Consider the DM presenting the 8th level blind guy who's been questing for a Wish or Miracle or other cure for his blighted sight with a Ring of Three Wishes that's down to one charge...and presents him with a scenario where he must choose whether to use it on himself, or to do [insert good deed of sufficeint magnitude here].

2) Playing disabilities can be fun and interesting, especially when the player chooses it for his character. They provide motivations (I want to overcome this!) and interesting hinderances (Well, I can't just read this tavern sign, now can I?), and occasionally neat unforseen benefits (Krillin! You don't have a nose! He can't hurt you!). Hence why it comes up. Magical cures for them being relatively plentiful and 100% effective makes justifying having them harder. In fact, if you have your character be three dimensional enough that the blindness being solved (with some suitable effort) doesn't make him suddenly boring, it's not even a problem. Mechanically, sure, you may have taken some things you no longer need now that you can see, but D&D actually tends to have such things be more useful than being sighted in some circumstances, anyway. And there's always retraining rules or Psychic Reformation.
Surreal
12-26-06, 02:06 PM blindsense
blindsight
tremorsense
scent
telepathy + mindsight
etc.

All of the above serve as alternate ways to "see".
jedrious
12-26-06, 03:46 PM For that matter, how would bad eyesight work? Would Remove Blindness solve it, too? Or is that somehow worse than true blindness (assuming the blindness is not story-written to be uncurable by magic) because there's no cure?

considering that bad eyesight is a deterioration of the muscles tissues and nerves in the eyes and optic nerve, as oppossed to true blindness, even if remove blindness didn't work, regenerate would
Carey Z W
12-26-06, 04:04 PM #1
Dear , can I please have my eyes back?
[I]*miracle*
Presto!

#2
Here's your gold, mr wizard sir.
*wish*
Presto!

Playing a blind character is dumb and illogical in a world filled with magic wherever you turn. The only thing I can think or is if your character was cursed by a god or somesuch, but even then, it's possible to remove the curse via questing or whatever and then you are stuck with a bunch of feats that are awesome if you close your eyes.

EDIT: right, what runestar said.. just didn't read his post..

"+1"

The OP didn't ask for criticism, he asked for help overcoming blindness.

Finding a 17th level person to cast wish or miricle is highly unlikely, and if you'd read Remove Blindness, it doesn't return eyes, just repairs them. Maybe the person was born without eyes, and has never been able to see, or they were cut out.

But, regardless, most of the best ways to see without seeing were listed by Surreal
blindsense
blindsight
tremorsense
scent
telepathy + mindsight
etc.
Zaxter
12-26-06, 07:26 PM Hm...A Cleric who can't see...Kinda reminds me of Rezo from one of my favorite early 90's anime, The Slayers. You should go watch it, it might give you ideas (You can find episdoes of it on YouTube...). Or if you're not interested in watching 3+ hours worth of old anime and want some ideas right now, you could just read below...

Rezo was blind because the body a god-like demon was sealed in his eyes (which even he did not know was the cause of his blindness until it was too late). No restorative magic would work to remove his blindness because no mortal magic could exorcise a god. If you want to use a similar idea for your character, you could make it so that anybody trying to cast remove blindness/wish/etc. would have to make some obcenely high caster level check (DC 40 or so). Of course, doing so releases an evil god...
Tenebrous_Sage
12-27-06, 02:10 AM Technically, you don't have to be able to see something for it to be in "line of sight". The "line of sight" phrase used in D&D means rather explicitly "unobstructed line", if you pay attention to how the Combat section of the PHB defines the term. It spends a couple paragraphs and a few diagrams on it.

You don't have to be able to see that invisible rogue to zot him with a scorching ray, but rays do require line-of-sight. (Sure, it helps to be able to see, since even if you know which square he's in, that 50% miss chance hurts, but it's not REQUIRED.)You're oversimplifying. Line of sight is different than line of effect. If something has total concealment (via invisibility/fog cloud/etc...) you can't cast a spell that requires line of sight at them, since total concealment block line of sight. Likewise total cover blocks line of effect. Total cover is granted by an actual physical obstruction. It is possible to have one without the other (for instance, you have line of effect to an invisible creature, but not line of sight, and you have line of sight to a creature on the opposite side of a Wall of Force, but not line of effect).

That said you don't actually have to see a creature to have line of sight. Blindsight, blindsense, tremorsense, etc... can all provide you with line of sight.
the_LICH
12-27-06, 02:39 AM A great feat for blind characters in general is the Keen Eared Scout from PHB2. If you manage to get a good listen skill, it can somewhat negate the some of the penalties of being blind.

I play a blind warblade/monk (my DM gave me blindfight, Keen Eared Scout, and +5 listen) to compensate for my incurable blindness).

He is great and fun to play, though the total cover against all opponents kinda hurts :P
periscope
12-27-06, 03:00 AM You ever looked in Magic of Incarnum? The soulsight feat allows you to take a move action to tell where all LIVING creatures are via a form of blindsense. If you burn a feat to be able to bind something to you brow chakra, you can sense living and nonliving creatures. Look at the feat for specifics but combined with some of the feats described above, that could let you nail them time and again. What level are you starting as anyway? If you have enough gold, you could have a psion manifest incarnate and touchsight on you for a 60 ft blindsight. Or synethete (forgive me if I misspelled) that lets you feel light and gives you the basic "visual" acuity of a normal person in normal light.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mr. Cheese 12-24-06, 06:59 PM	I was just making a charactyer conept and she's blind. And a cleric. I couldn't think of any ways for that to work, so I came here. Any crunchy methods for overcoming blindness?
Meek 12-24-06, 07:08 PM	I was just making a charactyer conept and she's blind. And a cleric. I couldn't think of any ways for that to work, so I came here. Any crunchy methods for overcoming blindness? I made a Blind dragon shaman using these feats, and a blindfold that grants blindsight out to 10 ft (my DM and I agreed the 60 ft Blindsight one is too crazy). Blindfight - Prerequisite for the rest Hear The Unseen - Lets you pinpoint an opponent's square 30 ft away with a Listen check Quick Reconnotier - Lets you make a listen check each round as a free action From Complete Adventurer. Also, clerics have a line of spells that grant Blindsight. That could be a big help, depending on the durations. If not, you can try extending them.
kabof 12-24-06, 07:15 PM	"Blindsight, 5-foot radious" feat, from Sword and Fist do the trick.
runestar 12-24-06, 10:13 PM	Dragon 297 - check out the grey sage prc. It revolves around the concept of a blind spellcaster.:)
Darhelion 12-26-06, 04:21 AM	This is more a conceptual question specific to your character than a mechanical one, though it relates to D&D mechanics in general: Why is your character blind? Not just "what caused it", but why hasn't Remove Blindness been cast on her by her mentor (since she's a cleric), or why wouldn't that be an option for her to do to herself when she hits high enough level? Not at all trying to rain on your concept. I like the idea of physical impairments on PCs - they can be fun to play. I'm just curious what your girl's story is. As I'm assuming you don't want a one-spell solution to your blindness (since if you did, you'd leap at getting Remove Blindess, which kinda ruins the concept), I'll not suggest Polymorph or Alter Self (both of which grant average bodies - and most creatures' average bodies can see). I would, in fact, consider discussing with your DM whether your blindness carries over into other forms if you are (voluntarilly or not) shifted into them. If you get Baleful Polymorphed into a toad, are you a blind toad, or not? As a side note, you may want to double-check the rules for blindness; I know deafness gives a spell failure chance on any spell with a verbal component, but I'm not sure if blindness does the same to somatic spells. I'm sure you've already thought of some of these; it's just one of my areas of facination in D&D type settings - how disabilities work, especially in the "privelaged" population that invariably eventually includes the PCs. For that matter, how would bad eyesight work? Would Remove Blindness solve it, too? Or is that somehow worse than true blindness (assuming the blindness is not story-written to be uncurable by magic) because there's no cure? It's late, and I should not be up, but now I'm probably going to see if I can create a homebrew (relatively simple) "Blind" template to apply to any sighted creature - the effort would be to make said creature permanently aflicted with the blinded condition, and give a couple flavorful mechanics to make it an overall +0 LA/+0 CR template. And have rules in place for what happens if the creature gains sight. Or if that's even possible, once the template's taken. Sorry if this rambles off-topic, but good post, Mr. Cheese; it has me thinking. Thanks!
runestar 12-26-06, 07:55 AM	Why is your character blind? Not just "what caused it", but why hasn't Remove Blindness been cast on her by her mentor (since she's a cleric), or why wouldn't that be an option for her to do to herself when she hits high enough level? If she was born blind, I don't think restorative spells such as heal or remove blindness will work. Wish or miracle might work though...:P
Darhelion 12-26-06, 08:18 AM	I don't see why they wouldn't, but if that's the way your game runs it, cool.
boombrakh 12-26-06, 08:24 AM	#1 Dear , can I please have my eyes back? [I]miracle Presto! #2 Here's your gold, mr wizard sir. wish Presto! Playing a blind character is dumb and illogical in a world filled with magic wherever you turn. The only thing I can think or is if your character was cursed by a god or somesuch, but even then, it's possible to remove the curse via questing or whatever and then you are stuck with a bunch of feats that are awesome if you close your eyes. EDIT: right, what runestar said.. just didn't read his post.. "+1"
Llochlyn 12-26-06, 08:36 AM	Every time a person creates a thread on these boards about making a blind character, (insert dire kitten-related warning here). I'm not the one who said it, but I couldn't agree more. That said, I can understand why one would be appealed to such a concept... Thus, you'll be facing one friggin big problem for casting your spells. "Line of Sight". Duh. There, you'll be unable to cast any spell that requires you to actually see the target. And if you overcome the blindness to be able to do that, there's then no point in roleplaying a blind man who can actually see. Meh...
runestar 12-26-06, 09:03 AM	And if you overcome the blindness to be able to do that, there's then no point in roleplaying a blind man who can actually see. Meh... Well, there is the immunity to gaze attacks and illusions...:D
Apocabramanic 12-26-06, 09:42 AM	That said, I can understand why one would be appealed to such a concept... Thus, you'll be facing one friggin big problem for casting your spells. "Line of Sight". Duh. Since he wants to play a cleric, he can possibly stay with pure buff and cure spells, most having a range of touch or personal. No problem with line of sight. And the already mentioned Blindfold of True Darkness costs a mere 8000 GP. It is a nice alternative to normal sight, if your fellow groupmembers don't stay speechless when the red wyrm appears in 61 ft. distance of you. I am playing a character using the Blindfold, as well, and it's a give and take. Sometimes I miss a round, sometimes I get a surprise round, depending on the opponents. Most of the time, it's neither, though.
Darhelion 12-26-06, 12:06 PM	Technically, you don't have to be able to see something for it to be in "line of sight". The "line of sight" phrase used in D&D means rather explicitly "unobstructed line", if you pay attention to how the Combat section of the PHB defines the term. It spends a couple paragraphs and a few diagrams on it. You don't have to be able to see that invisible rogue to zot him with a scorching ray, but rays do require line-of-sight. (Sure, it helps to be able to see, since even if you know which square he's in, that 50% miss chance hurts, but it's not REQUIRED.) That said, a blind cleric would probably be best focussing on buffs and healing when said healing is going to allies who come to him rather than he go to them. Blind-fight and/or that feat that gives blindsight to 5 ft. would make melee survivable for him, too, without overwhelmingly destroying the concept on playing a blind character. As for the comments on magic making blindness "stupid" to discuss, I have two points to make: 1) Mr. Wizard demands a hefty sum of gp for his Wish, as does Mr. Cleric's church for the Miracle. Further, are you sure Mr. Wizard or Mr. Cleric are 17th level? Such high-level characters often have better things to do than wander around curing blindness. Even dealing with Remove Blindness, not every cleric is even high enough level to cast that, so poor little Nell may have to stay blind until one becomes available who is willing to cast it for her (assuming it works). This of course breaks down for PCs, since curing blindness can become trivial by 5th level if inborn blindness is Removable. If not, it might last a bit longer as the PC struggles to scrimp enough gp to pay for that Miracle/Wish. But either way, it's at least an interesting role-playing goal for the early game, and possibly for mid-to-late-game. Consider the DM presenting the 8th level blind guy who's been questing for a Wish or Miracle or other cure for his blighted sight with a Ring of Three Wishes that's down to one charge...and presents him with a scenario where he must choose whether to use it on himself, or to do [insert good deed of sufficeint magnitude here]. 2) Playing disabilities can be fun and interesting, especially when the player chooses it for his character. They provide motivations (I want to overcome this!) and interesting hinderances (Well, I can't just read this tavern sign, now can I?), and occasionally neat unforseen benefits (Krillin! You don't have a nose! He can't hurt you!). Hence why it comes up. Magical cures for them being relatively plentiful and 100% effective makes justifying having them harder. In fact, if you have your character be three dimensional enough that the blindness being solved (with some suitable effort) doesn't make him suddenly boring, it's not even a problem. Mechanically, sure, you may have taken some things you no longer need now that you can see, but D&D actually tends to have such things be more useful than being sighted in some circumstances, anyway. And there's always retraining rules or Psychic Reformation.
Surreal 12-26-06, 02:06 PM	blindsense blindsight tremorsense scent telepathy + mindsight etc. All of the above serve as alternate ways to "see".
jedrious 12-26-06, 03:46 PM	For that matter, how would bad eyesight work? Would Remove Blindness solve it, too? Or is that somehow worse than true blindness (assuming the blindness is not story-written to be uncurable by magic) because there's no cure? considering that bad eyesight is a deterioration of the muscles tissues and nerves in the eyes and optic nerve, as oppossed to true blindness, even if remove blindness didn't work, regenerate would
Carey Z W 12-26-06, 04:04 PM	#1 Dear , can I please have my eyes back? [I]miracle Presto! #2 Here's your gold, mr wizard sir. wish Presto! Playing a blind character is dumb and illogical in a world filled with magic wherever you turn. The only thing I can think or is if your character was cursed by a god or somesuch, but even then, it's possible to remove the curse via questing or whatever and then you are stuck with a bunch of feats that are awesome if you close your eyes. EDIT: right, what runestar said.. just didn't read his post.. "+1" The OP didn't ask for criticism, he asked for help overcoming blindness. Finding a 17th level person to cast wish or miricle is highly unlikely, and if you'd read Remove Blindness, it doesn't return eyes, just repairs them. Maybe the person was born without eyes, and has never been able to see, or they were cut out. But, regardless, most of the best ways to see without seeing were listed by Surreal blindsense blindsight tremorsense scent telepathy + mindsight etc.
Zaxter 12-26-06, 07:26 PM	Hm...A Cleric who can't see...Kinda reminds me of Rezo from one of my favorite early 90's anime, The Slayers. You should go watch it, it might give you ideas (You can find episdoes of it on YouTube...). Or if you're not interested in watching 3+ hours worth of old anime and want some ideas right now, you could just read below... Rezo was blind because the body a god-like demon was sealed in his eyes (which even he did not know was the cause of his blindness until it was too late). No restorative magic would work to remove his blindness because no mortal magic could exorcise a god. If you want to use a similar idea for your character, you could make it so that anybody trying to cast remove blindness/wish/etc. would have to make some obcenely high caster level check (DC 40 or so). Of course, doing so releases an evil god...
Tenebrous_Sage 12-27-06, 02:10 AM	Technically, you don't have to be able to see something for it to be in "line of sight". The "line of sight" phrase used in D&D means rather explicitly "unobstructed line", if you pay attention to how the Combat section of the PHB defines the term. It spends a couple paragraphs and a few diagrams on it. You don't have to be able to see that invisible rogue to zot him with a scorching ray, but rays do require line-of-sight. (Sure, it helps to be able to see, since even if you know which square he's in, that 50% miss chance hurts, but it's not REQUIRED.)You're oversimplifying. Line of sight is different than line of effect. If something has total concealment (via invisibility/fog cloud/etc...) you can't cast a spell that requires line of sight at them, since total concealment block line of sight. Likewise total cover blocks line of effect. Total cover is granted by an actual physical obstruction. It is possible to have one without the other (for instance, you have line of effect to an invisible creature, but not line of sight, and you have line of sight to a creature on the opposite side of a Wall of Force, but not line of effect). That said you don't actually have to see a creature to have line of sight. Blindsight, blindsense, tremorsense, etc... can all provide you with line of sight.
the_LICH 12-27-06, 02:39 AM	A great feat for blind characters in general is the Keen Eared Scout from PHB2. If you manage to get a good listen skill, it can somewhat negate the some of the penalties of being blind. I play a blind warblade/monk (my DM gave me blindfight, Keen Eared Scout, and +5 listen) to compensate for my incurable blindness). He is great and fun to play, though the total cover against all opponents kinda hurts :P
periscope 12-27-06, 03:00 AM	You ever looked in Magic of Incarnum? The soulsight feat allows you to take a move action to tell where all LIVING creatures are via a form of blindsense. If you burn a feat to be able to bind something to you brow chakra, you can sense living and nonliving creatures. Look at the feat for specifics but combined with some of the feats described above, that could let you nail them time and again. What level are you starting as anyway? If you have enough gold, you could have a psion manifest incarnate and touchsight on you for a 60 ft blindsight. Or synethete (forgive me if I misspelled) that lets you feel light and gives you the basic "visual" acuity of a normal person in normal light.