Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lilt 02-17-06, 03:57 PM	I did a search for this via Google and came-up dry. I looked through the optimisation library and found nothing either. The combo is basic and concerns the Totemsit soulmeld "Blink Shirt" and the 4th level Teflamar Shadowlord ability "Shadow Pounce". The build is simple: Any Race Scout 5/Totemist 2/Teflammar Shadowlord 4/XYZ 9 1 Midnight Dodge 3 Mobility S4 Spring Attack 6 Blind Fight 9 *free* 12 *free* 15 *free* 18 *free* The result is the ability to, at level 11, make 2 full attacks each round with +2d6 skirmish on all attacks. How does it do this? You bind the Blink Shirt to the Totem Chakra, allowing you to use the short-range travel at-will as a move action, and use the Shadow Poince ability of the Teflammar Shadowlord to make a full attack whenever you teleport. 2 move actions = 2 teleportations = 2 full attacks. Obviously you'll be wanting to stagger the Totemist and Scout levels somewhat so you don't need to buy the last few ranks in Hide as cross-class. You can still reach BAB 16 if your last 9 levels are full-bab (or you continue either Scout or Totemist a bit). A more complete build might be: Skarn Scout 1/Totemist 2/Scout +2/Highland Stalker 2/Teflammar Shadowlord 4/Spinemeld Warrior 9 (BAB 17) 1 Midnight Dodge F Blind Fight 3 Mobility 6 Spring Attack 9 *free* 12 *free* 15 *free* 18 *free* Or: Human Scout 1/Totemist 2/Scout +4/Teflammar Shadowlord 4/War Mind 9 (BAB 16) 1 Midnight Dodge H Education 3 Mobility S4 Spring Attack 6 Blind Fighting 9 Wild Talent* 12 Psycarnum Infusion 15 *free* 18 *free* I'd suggest Shaky as the flaw for the first build. It's noteable that the second build can get three full attacks in certain rounds using Hustle. Wild talent is unnessecary if you choose a race with a power point reserve (or take a template that gives one, like Phrenic). If you're willing to leave War Mind until after level 14 then you don't have to go human for the Education feat either.
HotSake 02-17-06, 04:11 PM	Blink Shirt is based on the Dimension Door spell, which precludes you from taking any actions after teleporting. Shadow Pounce overrides that to give you a full attack, but you still can't take another move action afterward. Look at the multipounce builds (Prime Minister of Smack, etc.) to see ways of teleporting without giving up actions. Inconstant Location (Sandstorm), Dimension Leap (MoE), and Baleful Transposition (SC) are all free of the restrictions of DD.
GDarius 02-17-06, 04:35 PM	The big advantage of the Totemist/Shadowlord vs the other uses of shadow pounce is that Blink Shirt is an at will ability. Meaning you can go on porting as long as you like (you are now Nightcrawler, congrats). Probably the best tactic for this build would actually be 1. take an attack against an adjacent enemy 2. port to the other side of said enemy (or to another target) 3. take your full attack You can almost flank the sucker on your own. If you were to include TWF, then the skirmish would start looking good (7 attacks at round at +2d6 are a dman sight better than 4 at the same). This is the build I'd use if I wanted to be a porting fighter/rogue and my DM was known for throwing 10+ encounters at the party each day.
Lilt 02-17-06, 05:09 PM	@Hotsake: Doh. Always a missing link. @GDarius: Yeah, that was my idea for the split second before I realised that two move actions could equal two teleports. Oh well. So which build do people thing is best? A War-Mind? a Spinemeld Warrior? Maybe one that takes more Highland Stalker and gets Skirmish to +4d6? Some other combo? Incedentally, if you bind Girallon arms to your Soul Chakra then you get 2 extra attacks on a full attack. That's potentially a better deal than binding Blink Shirt as that only lets you get one more attack. Using Sphynx Claws bound to the Hands Chakra (using the Open Least Chakra feat), binding the Blink Shirt to Totem, and putting some psionics in there for hustle, you can get two full attacks with natural weapons. It might work nice with a bit of monk as IIRC unarmed strikes count as natural weapons so you could flurry with your feet both times adding some skirmish.
HotSake 02-19-06, 01:24 PM	I'm not sure teleporting counts as "moving" for the Skirmish ability. I'd allow it, but a strict DM might not.
lostone 02-19-06, 01:35 PM	I'm not sure teleporting counts as "moving" for the Skirmish ability. I'd allow it, but a strict DM might not.You are one place, then you are another. That demonstrates movement. All scout specifies is they must move at least 10 feet. It does not say how.
HotSake 02-19-06, 01:45 PM	And a strict DM might insist that magical displacement is not movement. They may argue that the ability relies on the scout physically traversing distance as part of its flavor. I wouldn't, but if you plan to use the trick, just make sure your DM wouldn't either.
Tempest Stormwind 02-19-06, 01:52 PM	A fair chunk of work was done on this using Warlock instead of Totemist, for Flee the Scene (which has the added benefit of leaving a Major Image of you behind, which, I think, may be able to provide flanking bonuses). However, the Blink Shirt can be an exceptional choice otherwise, mostly for its ability to be had with a feat, and the fact that a two-level dip is all that's needed to speed it up, while the Warlock one is a bit tricker to do (but I believe it can be done for multipouncing).
brdxtrm 02-19-06, 02:55 PM	Look at the multipounce builds (Prime Minister of Smack, etc.) to see ways of teleporting without giving up actions. Where is the Prime Minister, doesn't seem to be in the Optimization Library.
Khazra Reborn 02-19-06, 03:10 PM	However, the Blink Shirt can be an exceptional choice otherwise, mostly for its ability to be had with a feat Agreed. This makes the TF shadowlord so readily available its painful. It makes for a nice option for those who cant buy boots of psionic lions charge (though it will result in a minimum of 2BaB lost). I personally think this that in the case of blinkshirt maybe you'd be better off going for the feat,then something like azurin rogue3/ soulborn4/ TFS4/ highlandstalker9 and some 2 hander feats (shock trooper, powerlunge etc.).
scrollreader 02-19-06, 03:28 PM	The question of Teff Shadowlord with Blink Shirt vs The Warlock version is interesting. Both allow an at will shadow pounce. I think the blink shirt version actually allows you to hit BAB +16 (Without Marrulurk) and still snag shadow pounce. Might be worth it for a non SA build. The great advantage of the warlock though, is that flee the scene leaves behind an image of you for one round, which reacts 'as if you were concentrating on it'. Which means you can quite easily flank with yourself. Pretty much guaranteeing SA damage, against foes vulnerable to flanking. I'd need to re-read Crinti Marauder ... but blink shirting might work better with it (I seem to recall it being a more martial class than the Teff Shadowlord) and let you do some nifty things, like a FB with shadow pounce at will. Or something equally nuts. However, since there are lots of ways to disrupt incarnum (hence, making you lose your class abilities, if anything happens to the shirt) I still tend to lean ever so slightly in favor of the warlock's at will ability. As for skirmish? I know /I/ as a DM wouldn't allow it with teleporting. And nor would any DM I play with. It's not moving. That is of course, up to your DM.
Encard 02-19-06, 03:35 PM	There actually was a thread on this recently, right here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8431415#post8431415) . It didn't result in too much, sadly, since I think all the participants (including myself) were suddenly distracted by other things. Might be something useful, though. On option might be to just tack a couple totemist levels onto an existing build - not much change, but gives some (like the psionic multipouncer) a bit more longevity when their limoited uses/day dimension door-type-effects are all used up. Another would be to use a command word item of Benign Transposition or Dimension Leap, both of which have the teleportation descriptor but don't make you give up actions. I'd been considering trying to work out something that included Exalted Wild Shape for Blink Dog form, though I've been perpetually busy with other things; I'm not sure how feasible that would actually be, but it might be worth a shot - you'd just have to make sure that you can get more attacks than just your bite, perhaps through some other soulmeld(s). If anyone feels like taking a look, feel free - otherwise, I'll try to when I get the chance, perhaps it'll actually be somewhat feasible. Going with a Dragonwrought Kobold or an Elan might also be worth considering for the fun of Rapidstrike/Improved Rapidstrike, which would make even one full attack per round very damaging indeed. Also worth considering is where your damage comes from - scout is one option, if the DM allows it, SA is another if you can either set up flanking or your DM allows an attack right after a teleport to catch an enemy as flatfooted. Another, perhaps simpler, option would be to just increase your size an get huge claw damage.
Slyver 02-19-06, 03:59 PM	As for skirmish? I know /I/ as a DM wouldn't allow it with teleporting. And nor would any DM I play with. It's not moving. That is of course, up to your DM. Apparently ya'll also won't read the dictionary. move v. To change in position from one point to another You prove to me one is not moving when teleporting and I'll eat your hat. Slyver
Tempest Stormwind 02-19-06, 04:04 PM	Agreed. This makes the TF shadowlord so readily available its painful. It makes for a nice option for those who cant buy boots of psionic lions charge (though it will result in a minimum of 2BaB lost). I personally think this that in the case of blinkshirt maybe you'd be better off going for the feat,then something like azurin rogue3/ soulborn4/ TFS4/ highlandstalker9 and some 2 hander feats (shock trooper, powerlunge etc.). Except those don't work, since the requirements are the ability to cast Dimension Door or use Dimension Door as a spell-like ability. The only reason why Flee The Scene works is due to the warlock rules which say that invocations that mimic a specific spell count as that spell. Blink Shirt and all similar soulmelds are not spell-like abilities, nor do they let you cast the spells they mimic (if any). Blink Shirt merely lets you teleport. So, it won't open up the TSL at all, but it will make at-will teleportation all the easier to get. The iconic shadow-walker rogue/TSL only has a few Dimension Doors per day, for instance.
scrollreader 02-19-06, 04:27 PM	Apparently ya'll also won't read the dictionary. You prove to me one is not moving when teleporting and I'll eat your hat. Slyver I don't have to prove it by the dictionary. Check the entire combat section on movement, Attacks of Opportunity, and the like in your PHB. Moving is quite clearly defined, in D&D. Teleportation is not on the list under either: 'moving in combat', or 'modes of movement'. In addition, having just re-read the spell dimension door, it does not involve movement at all. The spell 'transfers' you from point A to point B. This means you could leave the Drawven Defender in his defensive stance, while re-locating him. He doesn't move. Sadly, neither does your scout. This is RAW. Find me proof that the spell /moves/ you, as a game effect, and I'll willingly admit you're right. We are men of RAW. Common Sense does not become us. :P
Antendren 02-19-06, 06:51 PM	I'd been considering trying to work out something that included Exalted Wild Shape for Blink Dog form, though I've been perpetually busy with other things; I'm not sure how feasible that would actually be, but it might be worth a shot - you'd just have to make sure that you can get more attacks than just your bite, perhaps through some other soulmeld(s). If anyone feels like taking a look, feel free - otherwise, I'll try to when I get the chance, perhaps it'll actually be somewhat feasible. Sure, I'll give it a go. Since both Shadow Pounce PrCs require non-good alignment, and Exalted Wild Shape requires good, by RAW it's impossible. So I'm going to assume your DM will relax the requirement on the PrCs. So we need Druid 8 and Crinti Shadow Marauder (easier to enter then Tef) 5. The problem, of course, is the str 10 of the Blink Dog. I think you're right, in that the best way around this is with some soulmelds. So let's try human Druid 8/Totemist 7/CSM 5. Feats go: 1: Stealthy, Mounted Combat 3: Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword) 6: Free 9: Exalted Wild Shape 12: Improved Natural Attack (Claws) 15: Open Lesser Chakra (Arms) 18: Free Go with a mouthpick greatsword, Sphinx Claws bound to your totem chakra and Girallon Arms bound to your arm chakra. Get yourself enlarged (thank you, errata), and each full attack you'll have two claws at 3d6 +5 each, three iterative attacks with the greatsword at 3d6 (plus whatever magic you put on the greatsword), and the ability to rend. Double that because of the two shadow-pounces a round you'll be making. I think that's about the best I can do with the blink dog. Not that impressive, I'm afraid. The 8 druid levels and a strength of 10 are just too much of a cost for a free action dimension leap. There are easier ways to get one. Edit: Replace Druid with Wildshaping Ranger to free up a feat and hit 16 BAB.
Crom_Smash 02-19-06, 08:04 PM	Sorry if this is a stupid questin but what book is the totemist from? I looked in the prestige/base class compendium and can't find it.
Tempest Stormwind 02-20-06, 12:43 AM	Sorry if this is a stupid questin but what book is the totemist from? I looked in the prestige/base class compendium and can't find it. Totemist is one of three base classes that appears in Magic of Incarnum, along with the soulmeld (Blink Shirt) that is the topic of discussion here. Totemists revere magical beasts, and can draw upon soul energy and shape it into aspects of those beasts, which they use almost like magic items. The Blink Shirt embodies the Blink Dog, and allows the wearer to teleport a short ways. A totemist can also "bind" it in a way that no other class can, which allows it to teleport faster (this type of binding usually grants an attack or quality unique to the creature in question). There's also essentia to worry about, which are sort of like renewable, freely-distributed power points, but that's a layer of complication that generally isn't too important at this level of thought. Incarnum's a fun system, but from an optimization standpoint it works best as a splash to add to other characters through the use of feats (since essentia capacity, or how powerful each meld can actually become, is a function of character level instead of class level, and if you only want one meld you can get it with just one feat or a one-level dip. The difficulty comes if you want the bind effect, which requires two levels of Totemist for this particular bind).
Lilt 02-20-06, 11:17 AM	Except those don't work, since the requirements are the ability to cast Dimension Door or use Dimension Door as a spell-like ability. The only reason why Flee The Scene works is due to the warlock rules which say that invocations that mimic a specific spell count as that spell. Blink Shirt and all similar soulmelds are not spell-like abilities, nor do they let you cast the spells they mimic (if any). Blink Shirt merely lets you teleport. Hmm. Nice catch, although it could be argued that the ability interacts with the requirements as a spell through the magic-incarnum transparency rules. It's a long shot, however. This could also play to the advantage of some characters, however, as it's noteable that they don't provoke AOOs or require concentration checks to use.
Caelic 02-20-06, 11:34 AM	Except those don't work, since the requirements are the ability to cast Dimension Door or use Dimension Door as a spell-like ability. The only reason why Flee The Scene works is due to the warlock rules which say that invocations that mimic a specific spell count as that spell. Blink Shirt and all similar soulmelds are not spell-like abilities, nor do they let you cast the spells they mimic (if any). Blink Shirt merely lets you teleport. So, it won't open up the TSL at all, but it will make at-will teleportation all the easier to get. The iconic shadow-walker rogue/TSL only has a few Dimension Doors per day, for instance. D'oh! (Smacks forehead) THAT'S why it didn't work! I've been racking my brains trying to remember why this got shot down right after MoI came out. Senility is a sad, sad thing. Memory is the second thing to go. I forget what the first is...
Slyver 02-20-06, 01:49 PM	I don't have to prove it by the dictionary. Check the entire combat section on movement, Attacks of Opportunity, and the like in your PHB. Moving is quite clearly defined, in D&D. Teleportation is not on the list under either: 'moving in combat', or 'modes of movement'. Exclusion from a list of variables does not necessarily mean that it is not in a set that has not been definitively stated as closed. There is nothing in the rules that says, this is all there is to movement, no spell, effect or any other possibility exists within the set of all things movement as defined by DnD RAW. The rules for teleportation are very vague in a lot of situations. For instance, by definition you can't do anything after a teleport. There are a couple of effects that make that untrue, but is it overwriting the rules or contradicting them? I would, using common sense, say that it is overwriting them. However, what this does mean is that all the things that they didn't say about teleport effects, because NOTHING could be done afterwards are left to us to decide what can or can't be done as the RAW has nothing to say about the contradiction (or overwrite). For instance, the dwarven defender. To the best of my knowledge using a teleport effect to move a dwarven defender is a user defined ability and is not expiciltly allowed by the RAW. Then again, if one were to use one of the transposition spells would it automatically fail on a dwarven defender? What if we use wish? I don't know the RAW on this. I don't think the RAW has anything on this. If this is the case then we, as responsible players, must make up rules that make sense. We are men of RAW. Common Sense does not become us. :P And this is where I disagree, although I appreciate the paraphrase from my favorite movie. :) When something is not clearly defined by the RAW we need to use common sense to make the system work. And that IS in the RAW. For instance, you state that teleport 'transfers' you, but does not move you. According to the dictionary of the language the RAW is written in, transfer is synonymous with move. First definition says "to move from one place to another". Now is the RAW saying you are not moving by using a synonym of move? Common sense man, common sense. Slyver
HotSake 02-20-06, 03:41 PM	Sheesh, I never intended to start an argument. :) I was just warning that some DMs might interpret Skirmish as being dependant on physical movement, so teleporation wouldn't work for flavor reasons. That said, Attacks of Opportunity can help distinguish between "moving" and "teleporting" in the D&D sense. Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot-step and the withdraw action. If you allow teleportation to count as moving, then would you also allow an AoO against someone who teleports out of a threatened square? Assume they cast defensively or otherwise avoided provoking an AoO for using their ability. If you would not, then this at least demonstrates a difference between teleporting and moving for some part of the D&D rules. Whether you believe this difference can be extended to activating Skirmish is, of course, up to you or your DM. edit: Movement :: d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm) This page lists the three movement scales and defines the modes of movement within. There is no mention of teleportation anywhere on the page.
Slyver 02-20-06, 04:08 PM	If you allow teleportation to count as moving, then would you also allow an AoO against someone who teleports out of a threatened square? Assume they cast defensively or otherwise avoided provoking an AoO for using their ability. If you would not, then this at least demonstrates a difference between teleporting and moving for some part of the D&D rules. Whether you believe this difference can be extended to activating Skirmish is, of course, up to you or your DM. This is precisely my point. Becuase the rules are completely not defined when it comes to teleporting in combat, it's relation to movement and the TS's shadow pounce ability, one must (read should) use common sense to create a usuable rule set. Again, I assert that the reason it is undefined is not because it was intentionally not included, but because it doesn't need to be as you can't do anything after a teleport per the RAW. That by itself negates almost every argument that has been presented, except this one. Does it provoke an AoO? I can not answer that by the RAW as per the stipulations presented above; there is no answer because the rules are vague and poorly thought out with regards to this. I will instead use common sense to create a rule. It does not provoke an AoO because it is instantaneous. It happens before there can be a reaction. So, yes, it is movement, because, of course it is. Yes, it is possible that it is movement by DnD definition and no, you do not incur an AoO because it is instantaneous and precident has been set for instantaneous actions and AoO's per the RAW. I guess in my long-winded way what i am saying is, the ruling on this MUST be dictated by the DM (and common sense) as the RAW is full of contradiction and ambiguity when it comes to what can or can not be done with teleport in combat. Slyver
Lilt 02-20-06, 04:09 PM	@Hotsake: I really don't find the AOOs argument to be sound. You can tumble, be invisible, have cover, have concealment, have any of other reasons for not provoking an attack of oppertunity. Who's to say that dimensional travel isn't one of such reasons not to provoke AOOs? There are two reasons I can think of why DD wouldn't provoke attacks of oppertunity. According to the SRD on Conjuration(Teleportation) effects, "Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane". Firstly: Although passage through physical space has taken-place, it took-place on the astral plane so someone on the physical plane wouldn't get an AOO. Secondly: The travel was instantaneous or near-instantaneous, thus AOOs would be denied even to enemies on the astral plane because the only precident for instantaneous or near-instantaneous movement comes from Timestop which says that you don't provoke AOOs when you move.
lostone 02-21-06, 07:57 AM	This page lists the three movement scales and defines the modes of movement within. There is no mention of teleportation anywhere on the page.Moving through an enemies area draws an AoO. So does casting a spell. Withdrawing from an enemies area does not draw an AoO. Neither does casting defensively. In both cases you start at point A and end up at point B. Yes, for flavor purposes, some DMs may not allow skirmish after teleporting. However as far as the RAW goes, I fail to see how it is not movement. The way I see it skirmish is moving in an unexpected way to throw your opponent off balance and then hitting them where it hurts, whether it is zigging when the opponent expects you to zag or teleporting behind them, you're still going to be attacking from an unexpected direction.
HotSake 02-21-06, 02:41 PM	Yes, for flavor purposes, some DMs may not allow skirmish after teleporting. However as far as the RAW goes, I fail to see how it is not movement. The way I see it skirmish is moving in an unexpected way to throw your opponent off balance and then hitting them where it hurts, whether it is zigging when the opponent expects you to zag or teleporting behind them, you're still going to be attacking from an unexpected direction. Skirmish isn't dependant on your opponent seeing you, so it has to be something based on the character's movement alone. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to discount the fact that every mention of movement in the PHB (that I can see) is about physical movement, not teleportation.
Slyver 02-21-06, 04:04 PM	Also, I wouldn't be so quick to discount the fact that every mention of movement in the PHB (that I can see) is about physical movement, not teleportation. Sigh. This means absolutely nothing as I have stated repeatedly and have not been refuted. One more time. A) Because something is not mentioned as being on a list doesn't mean it is excluded from the list. The movement portion of the PHB is actually very limited in scope and certainly does not say "This is how we define movement, everything else is outside of this definition" nor does it imply that in any way. B) Combat maneuvers related to teleport are completely undefined. There is nothing in the blink dog description, there is nothing in the sun school description, there is nothing in the shadow pounce description, there is nothing in the DD or teleport descriptions, there is nothing in the PHB combat section, and yet questions abound. There is a new post about one question or another relating to combat and teleportation (almost exclusively due to the Teflemmar Shadowlord) about once every other day. Then there is endless debate about it with no one on either side capable of producing anything except speculation of RAI or semantic arguments of the RAW. C) (or B subsection ii) As I have already stated countless times, it is, in my opinion undefined because "you can't do anything after a teleport". It never needed a whole ruleset because there was no way anything could be done. It can't be a combat manuever (except to change location), only it is. A contradiction, a broken rule set. Slyver
HotSake 02-22-06, 08:46 PM	A) Because something is not mentioned as being on a list doesn't mean it is excluded from the list. The movement portion of the PHB is actually very limited in scope and certainly does not say "This is how we define movement, everything else is outside of this definition" nor does it imply that in any way. B) Combat maneuvers related to teleport are completely undefined. There is nothing in the blink dog description, there is nothing in the sun school description, there is nothing in the shadow pounce description, there is nothing in the DD or teleport descriptions, there is nothing in the PHB combat section, and yet questions abound. There is a new post about one question or another relating to combat and teleportation (almost exclusively due to the Teflemmar Shadowlord) about once every other day. Then there is endless debate about it with no one on either side capable of producing anything except speculation of RAI or semantic arguments of the RAW. I never said I was posting ironclad RAW arguments. I'm just putting up food for thought for those who are interested in speculating on intent or trying to decide how to rule in their own games. C) (or B subsection ii) As I have already stated countless times, it is, in my opinion undefined because "you can't do anything after a teleport". It never needed a whole ruleset because there was no way anything could be done. It can't be a combat manuever (except to change location), only it is. A contradiction, a broken rule set. You don't need to do anything after a teleport to benefit from Skirmish. The AC bonus can be had when you end your turn by moving (or teleporting, as the case may be), so the DD restriction on actions is no excuse for not better defining the interaction between Teleport and Skirmish in the skirmish description. In addition, there are several methods of teleportation that do not restrict your actions, especially Inconstant Location. I can only speculate that they (the designers) felt it was obvious.