Bloodhound/Justiciar - crippling strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bloodhound/Justiciar - crippling strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Surreal
05-08-06, 01:33 AM I'm looking for some suggestions or improvements to this build that I've been mucking around with.

#1: Catfolk 1/Ranger 6*/Bloodhound 6/Justiciar 3/Monk 4
*variant ranger from CW, trade spellcasting for +10' speed at level 6

#2: Catfolk 1/Monk 1/Ranger 4/Bloodhound 6/Justiciar 8

The synergy between Bloodhound (CV) and Justiciar (CW) is easily apparent, but what caught my eye was the Crippling Strike feature. The Bloodhound version is much stronger, zapping two strength away per hit. The Justiciar version only saps 1, and only on a sudden strike, but hey at least they stack. Then searching around for other ways to sap strength, I found Weakening Touch (CW) which drains another 6. I included catfolk in the builds for catfolk pounce and the improved speed.

Build #1 has a base speed of 60', up to 80' when chasing your target. BAB 18, saves 15/15/11 (+Con to Will), evasion, magic Ki strike, etc. With a pounce, flurry, twf (from ranger), haste, that's a base attack of 14/14/14/14/9/4/-1. With weakening touch and assuming the first 4 hits are successful, you'll knock out 18 Str, then attempt grapples with your remaining attacks. No items, no spells, etc.
- Feats that I want: catfolk pounce, weapon finesse, weakening touch

Build #2 is pretty similar, but ditches some speed (though I get spells back) and stunning attemps for the improved hog tie feature. So with the same attack sequence, I knock out my target's strength with my best attacks, then spend my next attacks doing grapples (and the enemy now has a -9 to their grapple check) to hog tie them in one motion (ok two, which should be feasible). In this build I'd need to pick up Extra Stunning and possibly Quick Draw for my manacles.

Another thought was to somehow get psionics in there for Strength of my Enemy, which drains 1 Str per hit and adds to your own. If I'm grappling, I suppose Expansion and Grip of Iron would also be desirable. But I know nothing of psionics so am not sure how to effectively put that in (if possible).

Playing the builds is fairly straight forward, starting your adventuring career as a stealthy pouncing ranger. Is there any full BAB class that offers Gather Information as a class skill? Otherwise pick up the City Slicker feat (RoD) and you can enter Bloodhound early with Ranger 4. Mix'n'match between Bloodhound and Justiciar as you see fit, though you'll probably want Bloodhound 5 as early as possible for the 2 Str/hit Crippling Strike. Then at some point pick up that Monk level for Weakening Touch.

I suppose it's doable without Monk, but then I'd need Imp. Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, and Extra Stunning, and that's just too much without squeezing in Fighter levels or something... maybe Psychic Warrior? :confused:

stats & skills: Dex should be your main one, and order the rest as you see fit. I would actually consider Int next (or even primary) as you have a pretty nice skills list and would make anlo excellent face and detective type character. A messy sequence of feats I'd considered (taken in order) is: Education (Eb), Ecclisiarch (Eb), then Leadership, and maybe Investigate (Eb). This will net you early entry to Bloodhound, get bonuses to leadership, knowledge coming out of your ears, have a bit of a Sherlock & Watson feel, as well as give a "on a mission from the church" plot hook. Yeah it's terribly unoptimal, and City Slicker (RoD) works much better overall. Leadership is always handy though.

books: meh whatever, though I have no knowledge of incarnum whatsoever, and only a passing knowledge of psionics from the SRD

edit: Actually, the more I write the more I feel like I want to optimize the "detective" feel too without going into Rogue. Any suggestions there would be nice too.
Candide
05-08-06, 02:32 AM I think the Monk's unarmored speed bonus is an enhancement bonus, and what about the Rangers? It's probably an enhancement bonus too. Heck most abilities that increase movement are enhancement bonuses I think. Anyway. the two enhances won't stack. Still 50' is good. Most people have less.

Is there any full BAB class that offers Gather Information as a class skill?

I think urban ranger does, from Unearthed Arcana. Makes sense for going with the "detective feel" that you want. It uses a different skill to track people in the city. Maybe Gather Info? don't know
tsuyoshikentsu
05-08-06, 03:01 AM Well, for that detective feel, I usually recommend Half-Elf Ranger 4/Bloodhound X/Watch Detective 10/Justicar Y, where X + Y = 6 and both are <= 1. HE Ranger is pretty much strictly superior to Urban Ranger, mostly because you can take City Slicker as a flaw and have it impact your character all of none. (Urban Ranger loses Survival, the sub merely adds Gather Info and something else.) Also, more DMs will allow it since it isn't strictly a variant and is from Races, not UA.

Go for the Investigate (not to be confused with Investigator, although with Urban Tracking and Investigate that's not a bad idea either) and Research feats from Eberron, and maybe Education, too -- that Knowledge (local) synergy bonus to Gather Info is nice, never mind what the skill itself can do in an investigative situation. Of course, if you go that route, Complementary Insight may not be bad either -- and since you'll be getting boatloads of skill points, why not pour some into the Diplomacy synergizers and choose the Diplomacy-Gather Info synergy for Watch Detective, netting you an additional +3 for both?

In conclusion, Half-Elfs rock.
Sir Ringe
05-08-06, 05:52 AM The Bloodhound version is much stronger, zapping two strength away per hit. The Justiciar version only saps 1Note that the Justiciar one works whenever you use nonlethal strike, but the Bloodhound one can only be performed on your "mark", which you get 2 or 3/week and takes 10 minutes to perform. Having played both a Bloodhound and a Justiciar, I can tell you that the Justiciar's condition is infinitely easier to fulfill. However, that could depend on our respective DMs.

Half-Elf Ranger 4/Bloodhound X/Watch Detective 10/Justicar Y, where X + Y = 6 and both are >= 1 If you're going for maximum crippling strike though, You'd need Bloodhound 5 and Justiciar 2.
BreakfastNinja
05-08-06, 08:15 AM I've been pondering a Exalted Revenant Blade build based on Strength damage, and thought about these same questions.

1.) The enfeebling enchantment (from BoED) -- with good crit range weapon (say, Eagle claw, from Sandstorm, or Kukri or whatever)
2.) "Righteous Blow" I think it's called, and Quell the Profane. Also BoED. Cower or Str damage... crit dependant
3.) Scorpion's Grasp (I think it is)... from Sandstorm, also -- lets you initiate a grapple attempt after striking with a light or 1-h weapon. The Scorpion clawlike weapons from Sandstorm offer + to grapple checks, but they're a little off for many flavors.
4.) Rod of Withering (DMG) -- crazy str and con based damage -- light mace -- I thought about making a TWFer with these, and say, lightning mace style (or whatever that weapon style was from the CW).
You could easily do two rods of withering + grappling (say, with the scorpion grasp thing). Or, one rod of withering and grapple (you can only attack with one light weapon while grappling anyway...)
5.) Hate to harp, but I like the Kensai. 2 levels of which... lets you boost YOUR strength, and, er, if you're unarmed, enchant your arms with a +1 enhancement like, er, enfeebling. : ) That's a favored PrC of mine...
6.) and Warmind is also.
Warmind 1 doesn't mesh too bad with the detective feel, IMO,
offers you the +2 str buff, and PsyWar abilities like Expansion (effective but not as flavorful), Grip of Iron and Strength of my enemy. And Lion's Pounce for non-Catfolk : ) So, if you were to take 2 PsyWar and 1 Warmind, or even more Warmind (I do, to 5...) *shrug*
Flavorful?
7.) The Nemesis feat from BoED (say on Favored Enemy: Human or Favored Enemy: Evil) detects 'em -- worth it? If you could get FE:Evil more easily :(

Justiciar can use manacles as a light mace, can't he? It'd be DM-rulable, but you might ask if you could enchant your manacles with the Rod of Withering magic... Str damage and then grappled -- enchanted manacles that give str penalties (not damage) would make sense to me. Ray of Enfeeblement custom item? Also, Fell Weaken (LM) -- applied to, say,
a nonlethal damaging spell, and (for you) enchanted onto an item. Wand? Maybe? from a spell on the Ranger list? There you go.

Also Strength damaging poisons.

So, yeah, not a detective, but my RB and your Justiciar share some Str-dealing stuff. -my $0.02
tsuyoshikentsu
05-08-06, 11:32 AM If you're going for maximum crippling strike though, You'd need Bloodhound 5 and Justiciar 2.I was talking more about his detective build point then crippling strike, although this is true.

Half-elfs still rock.
Surreal
05-08-06, 03:20 PM I think the Monk's unarmored speed bonus is an enhancement bonus, and what about the Rangers? It's probably an enhancement bonus too. Heck most abilities that increase movement are enhancement bonuses I think. Anyway. the two enhances won't stack. Still 50' is good. Most people have less.

The ranger variant with increased speed gives an unnamed bonus, so it stacks.
Surreal
05-08-06, 03:22 PM Note that the Justiciar one works whenever you use nonlethal strike, but the Bloodhound one can only be performed on your "mark", which you get 2 or 3/week and takes 10 minutes to perform. Having played both a Bloodhound and a Justiciar, I can tell you that the Justiciar's condition is infinitely easier to fulfill. However, that could depend on our respective DMs.
Going for a singular target, he would definitely be more effective. Not so good in a random encounter though.
Surreal
05-08-06, 03:29 PM I was talking more about his detective build point then crippling strike, although this is true.

Half-elfs still rock.

I do like the look of that half-elf ranger sub. (and while I'm there, that bard 1 sub level looks good too :D ... though at that point I think I'll have more of a lawyer rather than detective feel :rolleyes: )

Lots of suggestions so far for the whole detective point; what about the strength damage portion? That was sort of the only reason I had catfolk/monk in there, so that I could actually win a grapple consistently for the improved hog-tie feature. So I suppose the question here is trying to optimize that strength damage/hog tie worthwhile in this detective build? How else can I disable my mark and drag them back for great justice? Take off every Zig! *cough* sorry :D
Sir Ringe
05-08-06, 03:48 PM If you want to win at grapples consistently, and your DM allows LA races, which it looks like he does, I'd go with a Goliath. Maybe Half-giant if you're going for the psionic thing you mentioned earlier. You wouldn't be able to take half-elf ranger sub levels, but you'd get +6 to your grapple check, +2 from STR and +4 from powerful build. You'd also get a +2 to sense motive which helps with the detective stuff.
Horny_Ork
05-08-06, 05:47 PM I had a half-orc barbarian6/fighter4/bloodhound2. It was a fun character but I only took the bloodhound because of the bounty hunter flavor (I actually had the exotic proficiency Net and it was fun). All in all, the character was quite good (3.0 bloodhound had a good will save I believe). How to make it effective? Str 20+ and you don't need to worry about stupid classes anymore.
Xeraph
05-08-06, 06:29 PM Did someone say Crippling Strike?
Then I reply with Lingering Damage (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/epicFeats.html#lingering-damage)!
littlenog
05-08-06, 06:51 PM Do not take a LA class going human and take the feat Jotunbrud.

Jotunbrud [General]

Damaran or Illuskan human

Regions: Damara, the North

Benefit: Treated as Large when a modifier based on size on an opposed roll.
Also, considered Large when determining whether a monster's special attacks based on size affect character.

RoF, p. 166

-<Powerful Build is better>- But you can't get it without a level adjustment.
The ability to use larger weapons I don't think is that big a deal.. IMO

Also the build requires you to be a grappler.. Which is very simple I'd take 2 lvls of Psy. Warrior.

Iron Grip and Expansion
(And the use of Power Stones) <-- Thats major at higher levels
2 More bonus feats which don't realy have to be wrestling feats
I'd also take warrior class over a ranger class levels so you are not restricted by light armor
You will also want Gloves of Titans grip +8 To grapple checks

The only reason I took ranger with my character is I wanted to use the Bear and Fang tactic feat. (purely for flavor)

If you hit with both axe and dagger in same round it gives a free grapple check and if you win grapple you get a free dagger attack.

Also get armor spikes so you can deal damage in a grapple. +1 flaming is what I use d8+d6(fire)+.5 STR every grapple check works well.

This also give your a power point reserve and focus which lets you apply for some nice psion only feats :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Surreal 05-08-06, 01:33 AM	I'm looking for some suggestions or improvements to this build that I've been mucking around with. #1: Catfolk 1/Ranger 6/Bloodhound 6/Justiciar 3/Monk 4 variant ranger from CW, trade spellcasting for +10' speed at level 6 #2: Catfolk 1/Monk 1/Ranger 4/Bloodhound 6/Justiciar 8 The synergy between Bloodhound (CV) and Justiciar (CW) is easily apparent, but what caught my eye was the Crippling Strike feature. The Bloodhound version is much stronger, zapping two strength away per hit. The Justiciar version only saps 1, and only on a sudden strike, but hey at least they stack. Then searching around for other ways to sap strength, I found Weakening Touch (CW) which drains another 6. I included catfolk in the builds for catfolk pounce and the improved speed. Build #1 has a base speed of 60', up to 80' when chasing your target. BAB 18, saves 15/15/11 (+Con to Will), evasion, magic Ki strike, etc. With a pounce, flurry, twf (from ranger), haste, that's a base attack of 14/14/14/14/9/4/-1. With weakening touch and assuming the first 4 hits are successful, you'll knock out 18 Str, then attempt grapples with your remaining attacks. No items, no spells, etc. - Feats that I want: catfolk pounce, weapon finesse, weakening touch Build #2 is pretty similar, but ditches some speed (though I get spells back) and stunning attemps for the improved hog tie feature. So with the same attack sequence, I knock out my target's strength with my best attacks, then spend my next attacks doing grapples (and the enemy now has a -9 to their grapple check) to hog tie them in one motion (ok two, which should be feasible). In this build I'd need to pick up Extra Stunning and possibly Quick Draw for my manacles. Another thought was to somehow get psionics in there for Strength of my Enemy, which drains 1 Str per hit and adds to your own. If I'm grappling, I suppose Expansion and Grip of Iron would also be desirable. But I know nothing of psionics so am not sure how to effectively put that in (if possible). Playing the builds is fairly straight forward, starting your adventuring career as a stealthy pouncing ranger. Is there any full BAB class that offers Gather Information as a class skill? Otherwise pick up the City Slicker feat (RoD) and you can enter Bloodhound early with Ranger 4. Mix'n'match between Bloodhound and Justiciar as you see fit, though you'll probably want Bloodhound 5 as early as possible for the 2 Str/hit Crippling Strike. Then at some point pick up that Monk level for Weakening Touch. I suppose it's doable without Monk, but then I'd need Imp. Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, and Extra Stunning, and that's just too much without squeezing in Fighter levels or something... maybe Psychic Warrior? :confused: stats & skills: Dex should be your main one, and order the rest as you see fit. I would actually consider Int next (or even primary) as you have a pretty nice skills list and would make anlo excellent face and detective type character. A messy sequence of feats I'd considered (taken in order) is: Education (Eb), Ecclisiarch (Eb), then Leadership, and maybe Investigate (Eb). This will net you early entry to Bloodhound, get bonuses to leadership, knowledge coming out of your ears, have a bit of a Sherlock & Watson feel, as well as give a "on a mission from the church" plot hook. Yeah it's terribly unoptimal, and City Slicker (RoD) works much better overall. Leadership is always handy though. books: meh whatever, though I have no knowledge of incarnum whatsoever, and only a passing knowledge of psionics from the SRD edit: Actually, the more I write the more I feel like I want to optimize the "detective" feel too without going into Rogue. Any suggestions there would be nice too.
Candide 05-08-06, 02:32 AM	I think the Monk's unarmored speed bonus is an enhancement bonus, and what about the Rangers? It's probably an enhancement bonus too. Heck most abilities that increase movement are enhancement bonuses I think. Anyway. the two enhances won't stack. Still 50' is good. Most people have less. Is there any full BAB class that offers Gather Information as a class skill? I think urban ranger does, from Unearthed Arcana. Makes sense for going with the "detective feel" that you want. It uses a different skill to track people in the city. Maybe Gather Info? don't know
tsuyoshikentsu 05-08-06, 03:01 AM	Well, for that detective feel, I usually recommend Half-Elf Ranger 4/Bloodhound X/Watch Detective 10/Justicar Y, where X + Y = 6 and both are <= 1. HE Ranger is pretty much strictly superior to Urban Ranger, mostly because you can take City Slicker as a flaw and have it impact your character all of none. (Urban Ranger loses Survival, the sub merely adds Gather Info and something else.) Also, more DMs will allow it since it isn't strictly a variant and is from Races, not UA. Go for the Investigate (not to be confused with Investigator, although with Urban Tracking and Investigate that's not a bad idea either) and Research feats from Eberron, and maybe Education, too -- that Knowledge (local) synergy bonus to Gather Info is nice, never mind what the skill itself can do in an investigative situation. Of course, if you go that route, Complementary Insight may not be bad either -- and since you'll be getting boatloads of skill points, why not pour some into the Diplomacy synergizers and choose the Diplomacy-Gather Info synergy for Watch Detective, netting you an additional +3 for both? In conclusion, Half-Elfs rock.
Sir Ringe 05-08-06, 05:52 AM	The Bloodhound version is much stronger, zapping two strength away per hit. The Justiciar version only saps 1Note that the Justiciar one works whenever you use nonlethal strike, but the Bloodhound one can only be performed on your "mark", which you get 2 or 3/week and takes 10 minutes to perform. Having played both a Bloodhound and a Justiciar, I can tell you that the Justiciar's condition is infinitely easier to fulfill. However, that could depend on our respective DMs. Half-Elf Ranger 4/Bloodhound X/Watch Detective 10/Justicar Y, where X + Y = 6 and both are >= 1 If you're going for maximum crippling strike though, You'd need Bloodhound 5 and Justiciar 2.
BreakfastNinja 05-08-06, 08:15 AM	I've been pondering a Exalted Revenant Blade build based on Strength damage, and thought about these same questions. 1.) The enfeebling enchantment (from BoED) -- with good crit range weapon (say, Eagle claw, from Sandstorm, or Kukri or whatever) 2.) "Righteous Blow" I think it's called, and Quell the Profane. Also BoED. Cower or Str damage... crit dependant 3.) Scorpion's Grasp (I think it is)... from Sandstorm, also -- lets you initiate a grapple attempt after striking with a light or 1-h weapon. The Scorpion clawlike weapons from Sandstorm offer + to grapple checks, but they're a little off for many flavors. 4.) Rod of Withering (DMG) -- crazy str and con based damage -- light mace -- I thought about making a TWFer with these, and say, lightning mace style (or whatever that weapon style was from the CW). You could easily do two rods of withering + grappling (say, with the scorpion grasp thing). Or, one rod of withering and grapple (you can only attack with one light weapon while grappling anyway...) 5.) Hate to harp, but I like the Kensai. 2 levels of which... lets you boost YOUR strength, and, er, if you're unarmed, enchant your arms with a +1 enhancement like, er, enfeebling. : ) That's a favored PrC of mine... 6.) and Warmind is also. Warmind 1 doesn't mesh too bad with the detective feel, IMO, offers you the +2 str buff, and PsyWar abilities like Expansion (effective but not as flavorful), Grip of Iron and Strength of my enemy. And Lion's Pounce for non-Catfolk : ) So, if you were to take 2 PsyWar and 1 Warmind, or even more Warmind (I do, to 5...) shrug Flavorful? 7.) The Nemesis feat from BoED (say on Favored Enemy: Human or Favored Enemy: Evil) detects 'em -- worth it? If you could get FE:Evil more easily :( Justiciar can use manacles as a light mace, can't he? It'd be DM-rulable, but you might ask if you could enchant your manacles with the Rod of Withering magic... Str damage and then grappled -- enchanted manacles that give str penalties (not damage) would make sense to me. Ray of Enfeeblement custom item? Also, Fell Weaken (LM) -- applied to, say, a nonlethal damaging spell, and (for you) enchanted onto an item. Wand? Maybe? from a spell on the Ranger list? There you go. Also Strength damaging poisons. So, yeah, not a detective, but my RB and your Justiciar share some Str-dealing stuff. -my $0.02
tsuyoshikentsu 05-08-06, 11:32 AM	If you're going for maximum crippling strike though, You'd need Bloodhound 5 and Justiciar 2.I was talking more about his detective build point then crippling strike, although this is true. Half-elfs still rock.
Surreal 05-08-06, 03:20 PM	I think the Monk's unarmored speed bonus is an enhancement bonus, and what about the Rangers? It's probably an enhancement bonus too. Heck most abilities that increase movement are enhancement bonuses I think. Anyway. the two enhances won't stack. Still 50' is good. Most people have less. The ranger variant with increased speed gives an unnamed bonus, so it stacks.
Surreal 05-08-06, 03:22 PM	Note that the Justiciar one works whenever you use nonlethal strike, but the Bloodhound one can only be performed on your "mark", which you get 2 or 3/week and takes 10 minutes to perform. Having played both a Bloodhound and a Justiciar, I can tell you that the Justiciar's condition is infinitely easier to fulfill. However, that could depend on our respective DMs. Going for a singular target, he would definitely be more effective. Not so good in a random encounter though.
Surreal 05-08-06, 03:29 PM	I was talking more about his detective build point then crippling strike, although this is true. Half-elfs still rock. I do like the look of that half-elf ranger sub. (and while I'm there, that bard 1 sub level looks good too :D ... though at that point I think I'll have more of a lawyer rather than detective feel :rolleyes: ) Lots of suggestions so far for the whole detective point; what about the strength damage portion? That was sort of the only reason I had catfolk/monk in there, so that I could actually win a grapple consistently for the improved hog-tie feature. So I suppose the question here is trying to optimize that strength damage/hog tie worthwhile in this detective build? How else can I disable my mark and drag them back for great justice? Take off every Zig! cough sorry :D
Sir Ringe 05-08-06, 03:48 PM	If you want to win at grapples consistently, and your DM allows LA races, which it looks like he does, I'd go with a Goliath. Maybe Half-giant if you're going for the psionic thing you mentioned earlier. You wouldn't be able to take half-elf ranger sub levels, but you'd get +6 to your grapple check, +2 from STR and +4 from powerful build. You'd also get a +2 to sense motive which helps with the detective stuff.
Horny_Ork 05-08-06, 05:47 PM	I had a half-orc barbarian6/fighter4/bloodhound2. It was a fun character but I only took the bloodhound because of the bounty hunter flavor (I actually had the exotic proficiency Net and it was fun). All in all, the character was quite good (3.0 bloodhound had a good will save I believe). How to make it effective? Str 20+ and you don't need to worry about stupid classes anymore.
Xeraph 05-08-06, 06:29 PM	Did someone say Crippling Strike? Then I reply with Lingering Damage (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/epicFeats.html#lingering-damage)!
littlenog 05-08-06, 06:51 PM	Do not take a LA class going human and take the feat Jotunbrud. Jotunbrud [General] Damaran or Illuskan human Regions: Damara, the North Benefit: Treated as Large when a modifier based on size on an opposed roll. Also, considered Large when determining whether a monster's special attacks based on size affect character. RoF, p. 166 -<Powerful Build is better>- But you can't get it without a level adjustment. The ability to use larger weapons I don't think is that big a deal.. IMO Also the build requires you to be a grappler.. Which is very simple I'd take 2 lvls of Psy. Warrior. Iron Grip and Expansion (And the use of Power Stones) <-- Thats major at higher levels 2 More bonus feats which don't realy have to be wrestling feats I'd also take warrior class over a ranger class levels so you are not restricted by light armor You will also want Gloves of Titans grip +8 To grapple checks The only reason I took ranger with my character is I wanted to use the Bear and Fang tactic feat. (purely for flavor) If you hit with both axe and dagger in same round it gives a free grapple check and if you win grapple you get a free dagger attack. Also get armor spikes so you can deal damage in a grapple. +1 flaming is what I use d8+d6(fire)+.5 STR every grapple check works well. This also give your a power point reserve and focus which lets you apply for some nice psion only feats :)