Bloodlines: a closer look [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bloodlines: a closer look [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zathyr
02-05-06, 03:58 PM Once upon a time there was a book called Unearthed Arcana, which contained many many optional rules for which to have fun with and customize your character in new and wonky ways. One such rule was that your character could have a Bloodline from some powerful race, and from it bits of power would trickle into your character over the course of 20 levels. The "price" of this was that you needed to take Bloodline levels - one two or three depending on the strength of the bloodline - or else get an xp penalty and not gain your abilities, and these bloodline levels have long been thougt of as "teh suxor" or to use a harsher term: sub-optimal.

I don't read everything here, I admit. I could be wrong - someone may have already caught on to the CO potential of bloodline levels..

You see, the bloodlines themselves are a cute idea. They're not overly powerful or anything. I was taking a look at them because it sort of fit a character idea I was toying with and I'd forgotten the rules for it. For a character concept they're OK, but most people don't consider them worth the cost of taking a bloodline level which at a glance doesn't give you much of anything. You don't even get hit points. It's a level of nothing, not a LA, so your skill cap goes up, but then you can't buy it off if you're using those optional rules. It spells everything out pretty specifically. Even in gestalt most people would think something else would fit in there much better. BUT THEY WOULD BE WRONG! Well, potentially wrong..

You see, there's this little thing it says about bloodline levels: to include the character's bloodline level when calculating any ability based on class levels. This is an interesting ability, to say the least. For the typical multiclassed "optimized" character, there's a lot of little extra bonuses that can add up - smite for a bit more damage, turn undead a little better, have some slightly higher caster levels for all your classes (but no extra spells) - nothing earth-shattering, but they do make the levels a little more appealing. The real juice is with those classes, particularly certain 5-level PrC's, that use your class level for something nifty. Sometimes adding 3 virtual class levels to those classes makes them far more powerful..

Take, for instance, the War Weaver from Heroes of Battle. I'm not going to say this is the best combo because I haven't read every WoTC product out there, but it is damn tastey. The highest spell you can cast into the Eldritch tapestry (and store in your weave) is based on your class level. Now as a 5 level PrC this keeps things fairly mild, but with a major bloodline those three bloodline levels suddenly let you use your War Weaver abilities with up to 8th level spells! Of course you may only be getting 8th level spells since you wind up losing 4 levels of spellcasting, but a Bard/Sublime Chord/War Weaver could do it and still hit 9th level spells. It would make for a pretty handy character to have around.. In gestalt it gets much better as it opens up even more options. And you're getting the assorted goodies of having the bloodline. It's like you have this benefit that you have to pay for ... with another benefit!

All in all, not a bad deal. And I get the feeling I'm just scratching the surface of this one..
Impeesa
02-05-06, 04:08 PM My favorite is probably the Pyrokineticist. You can build a straight-up blaster, using bloodline levels to get your fire bolt to 13d6 even before you start adding greater psionic shot and such.

--Impeesa--
PhoenixInferno
02-05-06, 04:44 PM I think someone used that idea to jack up a Death Attack DC really high. Don't remember who and I don't have a link.
Fwib
02-05-06, 04:56 PM Could help with formulae like the Ur-Priest's caster level.

CL= (UrP level)+1/2(levels in other caster classes)

So for a greater bloodline, you'd get a bonus of 3+1/2(3*other caster classes) to the caster level, less the opportunity cost of the bloodline levels themselves, at the cost of a couple levels of delay you spell access - nice for starting at high level.

[edited]
Zathyr
02-05-06, 06:48 PM I think someone used that idea to jack up a Death Attack DC really high. Don't remember who and I don't have a link.

You know that does sound familiar.

I still like it with War Weaver. Makes me want to dust off my old gestalt Geomancer War Weaver idea.
something like:
Wiz 3/bloodline 1/Geomancer 10/WW 5/Sacred Exorcist 1 // Archivist 18/ bloodline 2
(not exactly that order - take the bloodline levels as needed, Sacred Exorcist when you can for Divine metacheese, and stagger Geomancer and War Weaver)
Probably Titan bloodline. Should be a crazy-good character for a group.
Zathyr
02-07-06, 05:00 PM I think there's some good potential using this with the supermount build and perhaps the gnome illusionist. I've noticed the first level of gnome paragon gives a bonus to caster level for illusion spells equal to your class level. Could be handy. I'm poking around with that now and I'll post it up in the Shadowcraft Illusionist thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=290914) if I come up with something good.
SoulGamit
02-07-06, 08:02 PM What would a bloodline do for a Geomancer?

Also, has anyone noticed that the titan bloodline lets you wield a gargantuan warhammer without penaulty? Pretty nice bonus for a few builds... otherwise it's a tossup between one of the genie bloodlines or a dragon bloodline for best. Dragon bloodlines give you breath weapon, but the genie bloodline gives you some really nice feats.

Hrm...assuming LA Buyoff...

Murrowlurk Monstrous Humanoid 2 / Cleric 3 / Assassin 1 / Black Flame Zealot 6 / Dark Hunter 5

You'll wind up with a Death Attack DC of 32+Int+Cha

It'd be better, but Assassin, BFZ, Strife Leader, Dark Hunter, and Darkwood Stalker are the only PrCs I know of with death attack. Strife Leader and Darkwood Stalker get their death attack abilities too late...

Now it is possible to make a better supermount with this...

Paladin 5 / Ranger 1 / Beastmaster 1 / Halfling Outrider 10

You'd have an effective paladin level of 21 and an effective druid level of 19... 21 if your DM allows ranger levels to count towards an animal companion even if you can't get one via ranger yet.

Wizard 5 / Effigy Master 5 / Green Star Adept 7

This lets you make Effigies with 35HD... now what to make?
Vaelan
02-07-06, 09:09 PM Hrm...assuming LA Buyoff...

Murrowlurk Monstrous Humanoid 2 / Cleric 3 / Assassin 1 / Black Flame Zealot 6 / Dark Hunter 5
Once again, the Marrulurk's Death Attack ability does not stack with any class ability.

Abilities that stack explicitly state that they do. For example, the Black Flame Zealot explicitly states that levels in it stack with levels in Assassin. The Marrulurk's Death Attack ability does not state that it stacks. Further, it is not based on hitdice and thus has no way to meaningfully stack with abilities that are based on hitdice.

Further, the entire idea of using Bloodlines to increase your Death Attack DC doesn't work as you can spend every level past level 5 on classes that actually increase the DC, thus making the bloodline levels no better than any other choice.
Impeesa
02-07-06, 09:24 PM Further, the entire idea of using Bloodlines to increase your Death Attack DC doesn't work as you can spend every level past level 5 on classes that actually increase the DC, thus making the bloodline levels no better than any other choice.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I suspect you're missing the point. Three bloodline levels adds to your assassin level for determining DC... and to your Zealot levels.. and to your Dark Hunter levels. If they all stacked (I don't think Dark Hunter does), that would be +9 DC for three levels invested.

--Impeesa--
SoulGamit
02-07-06, 09:34 PM Once again, the Marrulurk's Death Attack ability does not stack with any class ability.

Hrm... maybe...

In that case, Cleric 5 / Strife Leader 10 / Black Flame Zealot 1 / Assassin 1

The DC is now 35+Int
Zathyr
02-08-06, 05:33 AM What would a bloodline do for a Geomancer?

Well, nothing much. The original build without bloodlines was basically Wiz 3/Geomancer 10/WW 5/Sacred Exorcist 2 // Archivist 20
The Geomancer gives the spell flexibility to let you cast divine spells in the tapestry and Divine Metamagic the arcane and/or divine spells that qualify. The bloodline in that build is just to buff War Weaver so you can cast up to 8th level spells in the weave. It may be excessive, really - most buffs at 8th level can hit the whole group anyway, but you never know when you need a mass Mind Blank or something. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zathyr 02-05-06, 03:58 PM	Once upon a time there was a book called Unearthed Arcana, which contained many many optional rules for which to have fun with and customize your character in new and wonky ways. One such rule was that your character could have a Bloodline from some powerful race, and from it bits of power would trickle into your character over the course of 20 levels. The "price" of this was that you needed to take Bloodline levels - one two or three depending on the strength of the bloodline - or else get an xp penalty and not gain your abilities, and these bloodline levels have long been thougt of as "teh suxor" or to use a harsher term: sub-optimal. I don't read everything here, I admit. I could be wrong - someone may have already caught on to the CO potential of bloodline levels.. You see, the bloodlines themselves are a cute idea. They're not overly powerful or anything. I was taking a look at them because it sort of fit a character idea I was toying with and I'd forgotten the rules for it. For a character concept they're OK, but most people don't consider them worth the cost of taking a bloodline level which at a glance doesn't give you much of anything. You don't even get hit points. It's a level of nothing, not a LA, so your skill cap goes up, but then you can't buy it off if you're using those optional rules. It spells everything out pretty specifically. Even in gestalt most people would think something else would fit in there much better. BUT THEY WOULD BE WRONG! Well, potentially wrong.. You see, there's this little thing it says about bloodline levels: to include the character's bloodline level when calculating any ability based on class levels. This is an interesting ability, to say the least. For the typical multiclassed "optimized" character, there's a lot of little extra bonuses that can add up - smite for a bit more damage, turn undead a little better, have some slightly higher caster levels for all your classes (but no extra spells) - nothing earth-shattering, but they do make the levels a little more appealing. The real juice is with those classes, particularly certain 5-level PrC's, that use your class level for something nifty. Sometimes adding 3 virtual class levels to those classes makes them far more powerful.. Take, for instance, the War Weaver from Heroes of Battle. I'm not going to say this is the best combo because I haven't read every WoTC product out there, but it is damn tastey. The highest spell you can cast into the Eldritch tapestry (and store in your weave) is based on your class level. Now as a 5 level PrC this keeps things fairly mild, but with a major bloodline those three bloodline levels suddenly let you use your War Weaver abilities with up to 8th level spells! Of course you may only be getting 8th level spells since you wind up losing 4 levels of spellcasting, but a Bard/Sublime Chord/War Weaver could do it and still hit 9th level spells. It would make for a pretty handy character to have around.. In gestalt it gets much better as it opens up even more options. And you're getting the assorted goodies of having the bloodline. It's like you have this benefit that you have to pay for ... with another benefit! All in all, not a bad deal. And I get the feeling I'm just scratching the surface of this one..
Impeesa 02-05-06, 04:08 PM	My favorite is probably the Pyrokineticist. You can build a straight-up blaster, using bloodline levels to get your fire bolt to 13d6 even before you start adding greater psionic shot and such. --Impeesa--
PhoenixInferno 02-05-06, 04:44 PM	I think someone used that idea to jack up a Death Attack DC really high. Don't remember who and I don't have a link.
Fwib 02-05-06, 04:56 PM	Could help with formulae like the Ur-Priest's caster level. CL= (UrP level)+1/2(levels in other caster classes) So for a greater bloodline, you'd get a bonus of 3+1/2(3*other caster classes) to the caster level, less the opportunity cost of the bloodline levels themselves, at the cost of a couple levels of delay you spell access - nice for starting at high level. [edited]
Zathyr 02-05-06, 06:48 PM	I think someone used that idea to jack up a Death Attack DC really high. Don't remember who and I don't have a link. You know that does sound familiar. I still like it with War Weaver. Makes me want to dust off my old gestalt Geomancer War Weaver idea. something like: Wiz 3/bloodline 1/Geomancer 10/WW 5/Sacred Exorcist 1 // Archivist 18/ bloodline 2 (not exactly that order - take the bloodline levels as needed, Sacred Exorcist when you can for Divine metacheese, and stagger Geomancer and War Weaver) Probably Titan bloodline. Should be a crazy-good character for a group.
Zathyr 02-07-06, 05:00 PM	I think there's some good potential using this with the supermount build and perhaps the gnome illusionist. I've noticed the first level of gnome paragon gives a bonus to caster level for illusion spells equal to your class level. Could be handy. I'm poking around with that now and I'll post it up in the Shadowcraft Illusionist thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=290914) if I come up with something good.
SoulGamit 02-07-06, 08:02 PM	What would a bloodline do for a Geomancer? Also, has anyone noticed that the titan bloodline lets you wield a gargantuan warhammer without penaulty? Pretty nice bonus for a few builds... otherwise it's a tossup between one of the genie bloodlines or a dragon bloodline for best. Dragon bloodlines give you breath weapon, but the genie bloodline gives you some really nice feats. Hrm...assuming LA Buyoff... Murrowlurk Monstrous Humanoid 2 / Cleric 3 / Assassin 1 / Black Flame Zealot 6 / Dark Hunter 5 You'll wind up with a Death Attack DC of 32+Int+Cha It'd be better, but Assassin, BFZ, Strife Leader, Dark Hunter, and Darkwood Stalker are the only PrCs I know of with death attack. Strife Leader and Darkwood Stalker get their death attack abilities too late... Now it is possible to make a better supermount with this... Paladin 5 / Ranger 1 / Beastmaster 1 / Halfling Outrider 10 You'd have an effective paladin level of 21 and an effective druid level of 19... 21 if your DM allows ranger levels to count towards an animal companion even if you can't get one via ranger yet. Wizard 5 / Effigy Master 5 / Green Star Adept 7 This lets you make Effigies with 35HD... now what to make?
Vaelan 02-07-06, 09:09 PM	Hrm...assuming LA Buyoff... Murrowlurk Monstrous Humanoid 2 / Cleric 3 / Assassin 1 / Black Flame Zealot 6 / Dark Hunter 5 Once again, the Marrulurk's Death Attack ability does not stack with any class ability. Abilities that stack explicitly state that they do. For example, the Black Flame Zealot explicitly states that levels in it stack with levels in Assassin. The Marrulurk's Death Attack ability does not state that it stacks. Further, it is not based on hitdice and thus has no way to meaningfully stack with abilities that are based on hitdice. Further, the entire idea of using Bloodlines to increase your Death Attack DC doesn't work as you can spend every level past level 5 on classes that actually increase the DC, thus making the bloodline levels no better than any other choice.
Impeesa 02-07-06, 09:24 PM	Further, the entire idea of using Bloodlines to increase your Death Attack DC doesn't work as you can spend every level past level 5 on classes that actually increase the DC, thus making the bloodline levels no better than any other choice. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I suspect you're missing the point. Three bloodline levels adds to your assassin level for determining DC... and to your Zealot levels.. and to your Dark Hunter levels. If they all stacked (I don't think Dark Hunter does), that would be +9 DC for three levels invested. --Impeesa--
SoulGamit 02-07-06, 09:34 PM	Once again, the Marrulurk's Death Attack ability does not stack with any class ability. Hrm... maybe... In that case, Cleric 5 / Strife Leader 10 / Black Flame Zealot 1 / Assassin 1 The DC is now 35+Int
Zathyr 02-08-06, 05:33 AM	What would a bloodline do for a Geomancer? Well, nothing much. The original build without bloodlines was basically Wiz 3/Geomancer 10/WW 5/Sacred Exorcist 2 // Archivist 20 The Geomancer gives the spell flexibility to let you cast divine spells in the tapestry and Divine Metamagic the arcane and/or divine spells that qualify. The bloodline in that build is just to buff War Weaver so you can cast up to 8th level spells in the weave. It may be excessive, really - most buffs at 8th level can hit the whole group anyway, but you never know when you need a mass Mind Blank or something. :)