Bloodlines: Worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bloodlines: Worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Master of the Squirrel's
02-14-04, 04:23 PM You'll probably see me making quite a few of these kind of posts. As we are the powergaming group, we need to determine whether these alternatives are worth it or not for empowering our characters.

Bloodlines are one of these topics we need to take into account. There is a plethora of benefits you can gain from bloodlines, but they requiter sacrifice of levels, something no min/maxer does lightly. The other point of this thread is to determine that if they are worth it, what the most beneficial ones are, and what combos can we make out of the. I'll post some more detailed thoughts after I do a more detailed read of them.
Master of the Squirrel's
02-14-04, 05:29 PM Here's my thoughts after initial inspection:

The bloodlines are better and worse depending on class, which though that seems somewhat obvious, is none the less true. Here's a breakdown for most classes, most first judging if a major bloodline is viable, and if not, what is more viable:

Fighter & Barbarian: These two classes are the two that can take a bloodline the easiest without almost any trouble. In the case of major bloodlines, they won't be losing much by waiting an extra level, the fighter especially. Given the right major bloodline, it can even be more effective than taking the 3rd level in the class. The lesser bloodlines of course are easier to deal with, so those don't need to be addressed. The only concerns would be slower to get to multiple attacks, and potentially slower advancement to a Prestige Classes.

Rangers and Paladins: These two have fewer good selections to choose from, but both can manage to take a hit at levels here and there. It's of course obvious, but the Celestial Bloodline really works well for the Paladin. Their worth it if you don't mind a little hampering to your spiffy ability gain.

Monks: Hmm... this is a toughy. The higher level you are, the better of a monk you are, but the nice abilities gained by a bloodline are arguably comparable. This is the one that's tough for me to decide on, and I need to do some more research before I plan to suggest something.

Rogues: These guys get big and lose big from taking major bloodlines. The extra abilities are always well greeted to a rogue, but the limiting of skills and sneak attack are also a big hit. I would reccomend a intermediate or minor bloodline if your going to have one, so you can get your skills up a little bit before you have to worry about taking that bloodline level.

Bards: This very much depends on how you play your bard. If your more of a spellcasting-anti-opponent bard, bloodlines are just peachy, as many add good abilities and bonuses to Cha. However, a party buffer needs to be more careful, because you'll end up slowing down the better song-buffs and support spells. This is really one that could go either way.

Druids: Like the bard, it depends on how you play the druid. If your a wildshaping fighter, then taking a bloodline only hurts a little, just because of the slower wildshape progression. If your a spellcaster, however, don't get close to the bloodlines if at all possible, taking only a minor if required.

Clerics, Sorcerer, Wizard: Three words- Slower spell progression. Major bloodlines are almost out of the picture, and intermediate ones are questionable. The benefits aren't nearly as much as an advantage as they are for other classes, so don't take them. If required, really try to get a Minor so your only losing one level.
Gerdreg
02-14-04, 06:30 PM I don't think any of the bloodlines offer more than a respective +1, +2, or +3 ECL creature. For example, there is no comparison of the minor ogre bloodline(+1) to the half-ogre(also +1).
Master of the Squirrel's
02-14-04, 06:48 PM Good point. That is what these are essentially doing. The bad part, though, is that ECL's can't potentially decrease your XP gain, which can be a major problem. The Minor Bloodlines can be taken by most anybody without to much problem. Take note that my above critique was mostly on classes with relation ot Major Bloodlines.
Mucknuggle
02-14-04, 07:24 PM Could you post which bloodlines you think are the best for each class MoS? I'm still waiting to get my Unearthed Arcana, but come March Break I will be a posting fiend once again.
rollplayer
02-14-04, 07:39 PM There seems to be little to gain from the blood lines, that one couldn't gain from fairly inexpensive magic items and levels in classes.

Your first three bonuses, which are the total that you get when you have to pay for them are almost always +2 to some skill, a feat, and a +1 ability boost. You are essentially paying for this with a level. I'm not impressed by this. Compare this to what you would get by taking your first level of fighter (ignoring the possibility of exp penalty), +1 BAB, +2 for saves, 2 skill points, and a feat. So is a ranger better off taking a level of fighter at level 12 or taking a level of bloodlines at level 12? I think the class level looks more attractive.

There are three good reasons I see to take bloodlines. The first being role-playing. There is a lot of flavor to be gained here. I can say my sorcerer descended from dragons and have hard mechanics to support it. I could see myself using bloodlines for this reason.

The second reason is that you are playing in a low level campaign where you know that you aren't going to have to pay for the extra abilities. Bloodlines are unique in that you can buy now and pay later. You are only ever going to gain a +2 skill bonus and a feat with this method, but if your careful they come at no cost.

The third reason is if your looking to boost something above it's maximum. You could have an ability that is 2 higher than it could normally be, or an ability score that is 1 higher than it would be without bloodlines. This is most useful in theoretical builds where you pumping something as high as possible.
Master of the Squirrel's
02-14-04, 08:03 PM Sure Muck. :) March Break for me is next week. :D I apologize for the limited comment. Anytime you see "Good for fighter type" usually means Power Attack and a Strength bonus at some point, and probably a Climb bonus.

Celestial Bloodline
Minor: Um... I guess an Apostle of Peace. Not a great minor.
Intermediate: Good if you want to go Knight of the Chalice without touching the Cleric class. Other than that, I could see it being minorly useful to a paladin.
Major: This is where the Paladin will really shine. Smite Evil, Resistances, and Feats are all part of the fun.

Demon Bloodline
Minor: Fighter types get a lot from this, due to the free feat, strength boost, and resistance.
Intermediate: This is better for Rogues, due to the skill bonuses, but still good for fighters as well.
Major: REALLY good for fighter types now, due to the quick advancement of strength, feats, and resistances.

Devil Bloodline
Minor: Good for Swashbuckler or Rogue. Good skills, feats, and Cha bonuses all contribute.
Intermediate: Kind of boring. Still good for Swashbuckler and Rogue though.
Major: Now we have VERY good stuff for the unarmored fighter and rogue.

Doppleganger Bloodline
Minor: Very good if you need to be incognito all the time.

Black Dragon Bloodline
Minor: Eh, a little nifty for your fighters, and maybe rogues.
Intermediate: Much better. Strength buffs, feats, resistances, and ends with Water Breathing, which has good practical use.

Blue Dragon Bloodline
Minor: Decent for feint fighters.
Intermediate: Again; decent for feint fighters.

Brass Dragon Bloodline
Minor: Bards or Urban Rangers might like it.
Intermediate: See above.

Bronze Dragon Bloodline
Minor: See Black Dragon Bloodline.
Intermediate: See Black Dragon Bloodline.

Copper Dragon Bloodline
Minor: See Blue Dragon Bloodline.
Intermediate: See Blue Dragon Bloodline.

Gold Dragon Bloodline
Minor: Good for just about any class that takes it.
Intermediate: See above.
Major: See above. This is a very generic bloodline.

Green Dragon Bloodline
Minor: Good for either Thug-Fighters or Rogues.
Intermediate: Even more decent for Thug-Fighters or Rogues.

Red Dragon Bloodline
Minor: See Gold Dragon Bloodline.
Intermediate: See Gold Dragon Bloodline.
Major: See Gold Dragon Bloodline.

Silver Dragon Bloodline
Minor: Good for Urban Rangers.
Intermediate: Good for Bards.
Major: Good if you plan on being in melee during in your career.

White Dragon Bloodline
Minor: Decent for Rogues.
Intermediate: Decent for Rangers.

Air Elemental Bloodline
Minor: Good feats for archers.
Intermediate: Even better for archers.

Earth Elemental Bloodline
Minor: Good for melee fighter types.
Intermediate: Even better for fighter types.

Fire Elemental Boodline
Minor: Good for Swashbucklers
Intermediate: REALLY good for Swashbucklers

Water Elemental Bloodline
Minor: Decent for fighter types.
Intermediate: Good for fighter types.

Fey Bloodline
Minor: Good for Bards, Rogues, and Rangers.
Intermediate: Great for Bards, Rogues, and Rangers.
Major: Superb for Bards, Rogues, and Rangers.

Djinni Bloodline
Minor: Good for clerics, wizards, and sorcerers.
Intermediate: Really good for clerics, wizards, and sorcerers.
Major: If you have to have a major bloodline as a cleric, wizard, or sorcerer, seriously consider this bloodline.

Efreeti Bloodline
Minor: Good for Bards and Rogues.
Intermediate: Better for Bards, good for Rogues.
Major: Bards and Rogues will be very happy with this.

Janni Bloodline
Minor: Bards and Rogues do well with this.

Hill Giant Bloodline
Minor: Good for fighter type.

Cloud, Fire, and Frost Giant Bloodline
Minor: Good for fighter type.
Intermediate: Better for fighter type.

Stone Giant Bloodline
Minor: Good for rock throwers.
Intermediate: Better for rock throwers.

Storm Giant Bloodline
Minor: Good for fighter type.
Intermediate: Good feats and abilities for fighter types.
Major: Good for fighter-Druids, ironically.

Githyanki Bloodline
Minor: Good for Monks, but decent for just about everybody.

Githzerai Bloodline
Minor: Good for archers, but decent for just about everybody.

Hag Bloodline
Minor: Decent for Thug-Fighters.

Lycanthrope Bloodline
Minor: Good for Rangers, but decent for most fighter types.

Minotaur Bloodline
Minor: Good for fighter types.

Ogre Bloodline
Minor: Decent for fighter types.
Intermediate: VERY nice for fighter types, as well as most other people who take it. Spells are always a benefit.

Slaad Bloodline
Minor: Shatter is a decent spell, so worth it for most people, fighter types with a small advantage.
Intermediate: Leans heavily toward fighter types.

Titan Bloodline
Minor: Good for fighters, and Levitate is nice as well.
Intermediate: Monks will paticualarly like this, but other benefit as well.
Major: Anyone who likes melee will like this bloodline.

Troll Bloodline
Minor: QUITE nice if you don't have a cleric, or one with limited healing.
Intermediate: Good for fighter types.

Vampire Bloodline
Minor: Good for Rogues especially.
Intermediate: Thugs and Rogues will like this.
Major: Rogues will like a lot.

Yuan-ti Bloodline
Minor: Decent for Rogues, semi-decent for everybody else.
Intermediate: Wizards might be inclined due to the Intelligence boost.
CrimsonRyoko
02-14-04, 11:25 PM power wise they arent "great" flavor wise i couldnt think of anything better!

I had an "instant thought" when looking thru them thou, giving one for free to sorcerers, the catch is that they would only gain the said abilities along with Sorcerer levels (i.e. lvl 1 sorc gets lvl 1 bloodline abilities, lvl 2 sorc-lvl 2, lvl 3 you go fighter, you get no abilities, lvl 4 sorc again you get 3rd level blood abilities)

God im already houseruling variants from a book i got yesterday. . . . .

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Master of the Squirrel's 02-14-04, 04:23 PM	You'll probably see me making quite a few of these kind of posts. As we are the powergaming group, we need to determine whether these alternatives are worth it or not for empowering our characters. Bloodlines are one of these topics we need to take into account. There is a plethora of benefits you can gain from bloodlines, but they requiter sacrifice of levels, something no min/maxer does lightly. The other point of this thread is to determine that if they are worth it, what the most beneficial ones are, and what combos can we make out of the. I'll post some more detailed thoughts after I do a more detailed read of them.
Master of the Squirrel's 02-14-04, 05:29 PM	Here's my thoughts after initial inspection: The bloodlines are better and worse depending on class, which though that seems somewhat obvious, is none the less true. Here's a breakdown for most classes, most first judging if a major bloodline is viable, and if not, what is more viable: Fighter & Barbarian: These two classes are the two that can take a bloodline the easiest without almost any trouble. In the case of major bloodlines, they won't be losing much by waiting an extra level, the fighter especially. Given the right major bloodline, it can even be more effective than taking the 3rd level in the class. The lesser bloodlines of course are easier to deal with, so those don't need to be addressed. The only concerns would be slower to get to multiple attacks, and potentially slower advancement to a Prestige Classes. Rangers and Paladins: These two have fewer good selections to choose from, but both can manage to take a hit at levels here and there. It's of course obvious, but the Celestial Bloodline really works well for the Paladin. Their worth it if you don't mind a little hampering to your spiffy ability gain. Monks: Hmm... this is a toughy. The higher level you are, the better of a monk you are, but the nice abilities gained by a bloodline are arguably comparable. This is the one that's tough for me to decide on, and I need to do some more research before I plan to suggest something. Rogues: These guys get big and lose big from taking major bloodlines. The extra abilities are always well greeted to a rogue, but the limiting of skills and sneak attack are also a big hit. I would reccomend a intermediate or minor bloodline if your going to have one, so you can get your skills up a little bit before you have to worry about taking that bloodline level. Bards: This very much depends on how you play your bard. If your more of a spellcasting-anti-opponent bard, bloodlines are just peachy, as many add good abilities and bonuses to Cha. However, a party buffer needs to be more careful, because you'll end up slowing down the better song-buffs and support spells. This is really one that could go either way. Druids: Like the bard, it depends on how you play the druid. If your a wildshaping fighter, then taking a bloodline only hurts a little, just because of the slower wildshape progression. If your a spellcaster, however, don't get close to the bloodlines if at all possible, taking only a minor if required. Clerics, Sorcerer, Wizard: Three words- Slower spell progression. Major bloodlines are almost out of the picture, and intermediate ones are questionable. The benefits aren't nearly as much as an advantage as they are for other classes, so don't take them. If required, really try to get a Minor so your only losing one level.
Gerdreg 02-14-04, 06:30 PM	I don't think any of the bloodlines offer more than a respective +1, +2, or +3 ECL creature. For example, there is no comparison of the minor ogre bloodline(+1) to the half-ogre(also +1).
Master of the Squirrel's 02-14-04, 06:48 PM	Good point. That is what these are essentially doing. The bad part, though, is that ECL's can't potentially decrease your XP gain, which can be a major problem. The Minor Bloodlines can be taken by most anybody without to much problem. Take note that my above critique was mostly on classes with relation ot Major Bloodlines.
Mucknuggle 02-14-04, 07:24 PM	Could you post which bloodlines you think are the best for each class MoS? I'm still waiting to get my Unearthed Arcana, but come March Break I will be a posting fiend once again.
rollplayer 02-14-04, 07:39 PM	There seems to be little to gain from the blood lines, that one couldn't gain from fairly inexpensive magic items and levels in classes. Your first three bonuses, which are the total that you get when you have to pay for them are almost always +2 to some skill, a feat, and a +1 ability boost. You are essentially paying for this with a level. I'm not impressed by this. Compare this to what you would get by taking your first level of fighter (ignoring the possibility of exp penalty), +1 BAB, +2 for saves, 2 skill points, and a feat. So is a ranger better off taking a level of fighter at level 12 or taking a level of bloodlines at level 12? I think the class level looks more attractive. There are three good reasons I see to take bloodlines. The first being role-playing. There is a lot of flavor to be gained here. I can say my sorcerer descended from dragons and have hard mechanics to support it. I could see myself using bloodlines for this reason. The second reason is that you are playing in a low level campaign where you know that you aren't going to have to pay for the extra abilities. Bloodlines are unique in that you can buy now and pay later. You are only ever going to gain a +2 skill bonus and a feat with this method, but if your careful they come at no cost. The third reason is if your looking to boost something above it's maximum. You could have an ability that is 2 higher than it could normally be, or an ability score that is 1 higher than it would be without bloodlines. This is most useful in theoretical builds where you pumping something as high as possible.
Master of the Squirrel's 02-14-04, 08:03 PM	Sure Muck. :) March Break for me is next week. :D I apologize for the limited comment. Anytime you see "Good for fighter type" usually means Power Attack and a Strength bonus at some point, and probably a Climb bonus. Celestial Bloodline Minor: Um... I guess an Apostle of Peace. Not a great minor. Intermediate: Good if you want to go Knight of the Chalice without touching the Cleric class. Other than that, I could see it being minorly useful to a paladin. Major: This is where the Paladin will really shine. Smite Evil, Resistances, and Feats are all part of the fun. Demon Bloodline Minor: Fighter types get a lot from this, due to the free feat, strength boost, and resistance. Intermediate: This is better for Rogues, due to the skill bonuses, but still good for fighters as well. Major: REALLY good for fighter types now, due to the quick advancement of strength, feats, and resistances. Devil Bloodline Minor: Good for Swashbuckler or Rogue. Good skills, feats, and Cha bonuses all contribute. Intermediate: Kind of boring. Still good for Swashbuckler and Rogue though. Major: Now we have VERY good stuff for the unarmored fighter and rogue. Doppleganger Bloodline Minor: Very good if you need to be incognito all the time. Black Dragon Bloodline Minor: Eh, a little nifty for your fighters, and maybe rogues. Intermediate: Much better. Strength buffs, feats, resistances, and ends with Water Breathing, which has good practical use. Blue Dragon Bloodline Minor: Decent for feint fighters. Intermediate: Again; decent for feint fighters. Brass Dragon Bloodline Minor: Bards or Urban Rangers might like it. Intermediate: See above. Bronze Dragon Bloodline Minor: See Black Dragon Bloodline. Intermediate: See Black Dragon Bloodline. Copper Dragon Bloodline Minor: See Blue Dragon Bloodline. Intermediate: See Blue Dragon Bloodline. Gold Dragon Bloodline Minor: Good for just about any class that takes it. Intermediate: See above. Major: See above. This is a very generic bloodline. Green Dragon Bloodline Minor: Good for either Thug-Fighters or Rogues. Intermediate: Even more decent for Thug-Fighters or Rogues. Red Dragon Bloodline Minor: See Gold Dragon Bloodline. Intermediate: See Gold Dragon Bloodline. Major: See Gold Dragon Bloodline. Silver Dragon Bloodline Minor: Good for Urban Rangers. Intermediate: Good for Bards. Major: Good if you plan on being in melee during in your career. White Dragon Bloodline Minor: Decent for Rogues. Intermediate: Decent for Rangers. Air Elemental Bloodline Minor: Good feats for archers. Intermediate: Even better for archers. Earth Elemental Bloodline Minor: Good for melee fighter types. Intermediate: Even better for fighter types. Fire Elemental Boodline Minor: Good for Swashbucklers Intermediate: REALLY good for Swashbucklers Water Elemental Bloodline Minor: Decent for fighter types. Intermediate: Good for fighter types. Fey Bloodline Minor: Good for Bards, Rogues, and Rangers. Intermediate: Great for Bards, Rogues, and Rangers. Major: Superb for Bards, Rogues, and Rangers. Djinni Bloodline Minor: Good for clerics, wizards, and sorcerers. Intermediate: Really good for clerics, wizards, and sorcerers. Major: If you have to have a major bloodline as a cleric, wizard, or sorcerer, seriously consider this bloodline. Efreeti Bloodline Minor: Good for Bards and Rogues. Intermediate: Better for Bards, good for Rogues. Major: Bards and Rogues will be very happy with this. Janni Bloodline Minor: Bards and Rogues do well with this. Hill Giant Bloodline Minor: Good for fighter type. Cloud, Fire, and Frost Giant Bloodline Minor: Good for fighter type. Intermediate: Better for fighter type. Stone Giant Bloodline Minor: Good for rock throwers. Intermediate: Better for rock throwers. Storm Giant Bloodline Minor: Good for fighter type. Intermediate: Good feats and abilities for fighter types. Major: Good for fighter-Druids, ironically. Githyanki Bloodline Minor: Good for Monks, but decent for just about everybody. Githzerai Bloodline Minor: Good for archers, but decent for just about everybody. Hag Bloodline Minor: Decent for Thug-Fighters. Lycanthrope Bloodline Minor: Good for Rangers, but decent for most fighter types. Minotaur Bloodline Minor: Good for fighter types. Ogre Bloodline Minor: Decent for fighter types. Intermediate: VERY nice for fighter types, as well as most other people who take it. Spells are always a benefit. Slaad Bloodline Minor: Shatter is a decent spell, so worth it for most people, fighter types with a small advantage. Intermediate: Leans heavily toward fighter types. Titan Bloodline Minor: Good for fighters, and Levitate is nice as well. Intermediate: Monks will paticualarly like this, but other benefit as well. Major: Anyone who likes melee will like this bloodline. Troll Bloodline Minor: QUITE nice if you don't have a cleric, or one with limited healing. Intermediate: Good for fighter types. Vampire Bloodline Minor: Good for Rogues especially. Intermediate: Thugs and Rogues will like this. Major: Rogues will like a lot. Yuan-ti Bloodline Minor: Decent for Rogues, semi-decent for everybody else. Intermediate: Wizards might be inclined due to the Intelligence boost.
CrimsonRyoko 02-14-04, 11:25 PM	power wise they arent "great" flavor wise i couldnt think of anything better! I had an "instant thought" when looking thru them thou, giving one for free to sorcerers, the catch is that they would only gain the said abilities along with Sorcerer levels (i.e. lvl 1 sorc gets lvl 1 bloodline abilities, lvl 2 sorc-lvl 2, lvl 3 you go fighter, you get no abilities, lvl 4 sorc again you get 3rd level blood abilities) God im already houseruling variants from a book i got yesterday. . . . .