Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Double M 11-17-05, 11:15 AM	Hey all, We're about to start a new campaign and I have been wanting to play a Dervish since I first saw the PrC. Unfortunately, life and Eberron intervened and I've been enjoying playing the goodness that is the artificer. Since the search function is extinct, I thought I'd check in to see if anyone has played or has a good memory on a quality Dervish. Our campaigns never seem to go much above 12th or 13th level and my DM doesn't construct a battle where we don't have to make at least 2 different saves, so I'm looking for a good build that includes dervish, but that doesn't totally blow on saves. If memory serves, most folks had three varients on the Dervish: Swashbuckler3/fighter2/DervishX Ranger2/fighter or SB3/Dervish X or one involving Rogue in some combo with fighter/sw/or ranger. I definitely want to go TWF (for style if not necessarily absolute CharOpt), and like the SB int to damage ability at SB3. Has any played any or all of these options? If so, what did you find worked best in terms of min/max? What are your ideas for a build that will not likely go above 15th (and even that's a stretch)? By the way, I'm not a skilled min/maxer, so use small words and don't take for granted that I know something (because I probably don't)--I'm just sick of being the only player in my group who doesn't sacrifice roleplay, style, and fun for 1000 points of damage per round output. Any help is appreciated.
Moon-Lancer 11-17-05, 12:15 PM	I like this build, but its more for higher level stuff 01 Swb 1 Weapon Finesse, Exotic Weapon proficiency Court Blade, weapon Focus Court Blade (flaw shaky), 02 Ftr 1 Dodge 03 Swb 2 Mobility 04 Ftr 2 Combat Expertise 05 Swb 3 06 Drv 1 Mounted Combat 07 Drv 2 08 CCL 1 09 CCL 2 Combat reflexes, Karmatic Strike 10 Drv 3 Spring Attack 11 Drv 4 12 Drv 5 Power Attack 13 Drv 6 14 Drv 7 15 Drv 8 Elusive Target 16 Drv 9 17 Drv 10 18 CCL 8 leap attack 19 CCL 9 hold the line 20 CCL 10 remove powerattack if you can find eq to get powerattack. Do you know of any btw?
Dark Kyosuke 11-17-05, 12:19 PM	This is in no way comprehensive, but a good base (IMO) is Fighter 5/Dervish 10/Tempest 5 ... Though that breaks a long-standing Char Opt rule of odd-numbered Fighter levels, so instead... Fighter 2/Ranger 3/Dervish 10/Tempest 5 Or go Swashbuckler 3 instead of Ranger 3 to get that lovely Int to damage bonus. Then you can use Int instead of Str to really determine damage. (Though I'm not sure how good an idea this is, I don't really use the SWB) All the feats required to enter Dervish are, in fact, Fighter bonus feats. Invest in Elusive Target (you'll have no trouble qualifying), Iron Will and (probably) Lightning Reflexes. ... Maybe someone can do better, but this isn't so bad, is it?
Hack and Smasher 11-17-05, 03:40 PM	I recommend human scout3,swashbuckler3,dervish6 feats wise dodge, mobilty, twf, staggering strike, improved twf, elusive target or greater twf taking the other as you next feat Staggering strike allows you to trade in your skirmish damage to stagger you oppent which restricts them to a standard action around meaning no full attacking which should limit the damage you take and elusive will stop you taking damage from powerattack and and being flankerd will be an advantage to you. Saves wise both scout and swashbuckler grant +1 to fort and reflex in addition to the dervishs strong saves you should be ok As for progression finish your dervish levels if nessary take more scout levels afterwards for feats and evasion.
Double M 11-17-05, 06:17 PM	Thanks for the info, so far...keep it coming, please! :D I'm curious, can someone walk me through the interplay of dodge, mobility, spring attack, and elusive target (the one where you get flanked and your flanker hits the other flanker)--does this mean you are trying to provoke AoO's from every hitter ('cuz my intuition tells me that can't be a good thing [at least not all of the time]), or are you just trying to pick out the weaker opponents, provoke an AoO from them and watch them hit each other? I'm sure that if I had the books in front of me, it would make more sense, but I fear I'm missing something about how this combination of feats is best optimized. Thanks again for any help/suggestions!
X-Codes 11-17-05, 06:30 PM	I recommend human scout3,swashbuckler3,dervish6 feats wise dodge, mobilty, twf, staggering strike, improved twf, elusive target or greater twf taking the other as you next feat Staggering strike allows you to trade in your skirmish damage to stagger you oppent which restricts them to a standard action around meaning no full attacking which should limit the damage you take and elusive will stop you taking damage from powerattack and and being flankerd will be an advantage to you. Saves wise both scout and swashbuckler grant +1 to fort and reflex in addition to the dervishs strong saves you should be ok As for progression finish your dervish levels if nessary take more scout levels afterwards for feats and evasion. No, Staggering Strike allows you to trade in *sneak attack* dice for the effect. Skirmish is very different from Sneak Attack, and cannot be subbed in for qualifying for PrC's/Feats requiring Sneak Attack dice. As for a low-level dervish, Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish X is pretty much the best way to enter in. Scout 7/Dervish X is also notable for the +2d6 skirmish dice and fast movement, but obviously you will end the game with 2 fewer Dervish levels. As for the Elusive Target, I'm pretty certain the principle ability of that feat is the Negate Power Attack ability. Cause Overreach and the other are nifty seconds, but using them can be a little dangerous, yes. If you can, get Improved Uncanny Dodge to help mitigate the danger (you already have +4 AC vs. Attacks of Opportunity from movement thanks to Mobility).
Aramas 11-17-05, 06:35 PM	For TWF I prefer Fighter or Ranger 2nd / Swashbuckler 3rd / Dervish 9th That takes you to 14th level, which is plenty of planning if you don't think the campaign will get past 12 or 13.
HiQKid 11-17-05, 08:10 PM	I'm no expert, but I've been thinking, and Monk + Dervish doesn't seem bad, but I'm not sure how to pull it off. It'll boost all saves (a problem you noted), and six levels'll get you a +20 to speed (and how can a dervish complain about being faster?), flurry with slashing monk weapons, evasion, desease immunity, bonus against enchantments... Not bad, eh? But how to make it work? What about Monk/(Dragonish Monk PRC from Draconomicon, can't remember name)/Dervish, mainly because the Dragonish PRC make unarmed strikes slashing. I'll try to make a coherent build later.
AramilWindwalker 11-17-05, 09:20 PM	saves shouldn't be much of an issue,seeing as the classes you use to qualify have good fort and/or ref, and dervish has good ref and will, i like fighter2/swashbuckler3/dervish 10/tempest 5, saves are F+12, ref+10, will+9 base saves, not too bad for full BAB and all d10s for hp
MechaboyDos 11-17-05, 09:42 PM	Here's my build: Human Scout 5/Fighter 2/Dervish 7/Tempest 5/Thief-Acrobat 1 32 Point Buy Str: 14+2 (Level Adjustments 16, 20) Dex: 16+3 (Level Adjustments 4, 8, 12) Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 12 Cha: 8 1st: Scout 1. Expeditious Dodge, Two-Weapon Fighting 2nd: Fighter 1. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). 3rd: Scout 2. Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. 4th: Fighter 2. Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword). 5th: Scout 3. 6th: Scout 4. Combat Expertise, Mobility 7th: Dervish 1. 8th: Dervish 2. 9th: Dervish 3. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Spring Attack. 10th: Tempest 1. 11th: Scout 5. 12th: Thief Acrobat 1. Quickdraw 13th: Tempest 2. 14th: Tempest 3. 15th: Tempest 4. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting 16th: Tempest 5. 17th: Dervish 4. 18th: Dervish 5. Two-Weapon Defense 19th: Dervish 6. 20th: Dervish 7. Combat Stats BAB +17 Full Attack: +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2 with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Damage: 1d10+3 Primary, 1d10+1 Off Full Damage with Skirmish and Dervish Dance: 1d10+2d6+7 (x4) + 1d10+2d6+5 (x3) Fort 11+Con Ref 12+Dex Will 7+Wis AC: 20+Armor+Protective Items (+1 when Skirmishing, +2 when moving 40 ft or more) Speed 50 ft Abilities Dervish Dance 4/day +2 AC Bonus +3 on Initiative checks The ability to use Cleave while Dervish Dancing Always take 10 on a Jump, Perform (Dance), or Tumble check +4 to-hit and damage while Dervish Dancing An extra +4 to AC when fighting defensively Evasion +2d6 Skirmish +1 AC when Skirmishing Uncanny Dodge Trapfinding Trackless Step No two-weapon fighting penalties when dual-wielding Bastard Swords thanks to Ambidexterity and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting +4 AC when wielding two weapons Two-Weapon Spring Attack (For when Dervish Dances run out) No penalties on Balance or Tumble at full movement and no penalties on Climb at half movement Stand from prone as a free action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity Not flat-footed when balancing or climbing +2 Dodge bonus to AC when moving 40 ft or more Max Tumble and you can Dervish Dance all over the place without provoking Attacks of Opportunity. The Thief-Acrobat level removes the -10 penalty for Tumbling at full movement. Expeditious Dodge is from Races of the Wild, it's what gives you +2 Dodge for moving 40 ft or more. Get yourself some Mithral Breastplate for your armor and you'll be doing good. Go into Dervish Dance and start doing the Ginsu. Since Skirmish damage only applies if you move 10 ft or more from your initial position, you'll have to step five feet, attack, and then step another five feet before you start skirmishing, so your maximum potential damage is 7d10+12d6+43 damage if all 7 attacks hit.
kalstrand 11-18-05, 12:58 AM	Elusive Target ability to make an opponent hit another opponent works like this. Pick one of them to be your Dodge target i.e. the one you get the extra +1 to AC because of the Dodge feat. The first attack he makes each round automatically hits the person opposite of him assuming his attack roll is high enough to beat said persons AC. 1X2 1 is the person you assigned your Dodge feat. 2 is his buddy. On 1's first attack each round you "dodge" his attack and he hits 2 as long as his attack roll is high enough to beat 2's AC.
SoulGamit 11-18-05, 01:23 AM	Scout 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / Dervish 10 Might I suggest the xeph race as well, for the burst of speed ability? Assuming, of course, that you can do without the human bonus feat. If you want apsolute best, Non-Psionic Thri-Kreen Monstrous Humanoid 2 / Swashbuckler 3 / Dervish 10 Multiweapon fighting is just plane better then two-weapon fighting, especally if you can use LA buyoff.
Otto the Bugbear 11-18-05, 07:32 AM	Here's mine. Lesser Tiefling (PGtF) Str: 16, Dex: 17, Con: 14, Int: 14, Wis: 10, Cha 8 Ranger 2 / Fighter 1 / Cobra Strike Monk 2 / Thief-Acrobat 2 / Dervish 5 Ending with Thief-Acrobat 4 / Dervish 7 and 4 open levels Base saves: F: 9, R: 13, W: 7 Feats: Track (r1), Power Attack (1), Fleet of Foot (h), TWF (r2), EWP Bastard Sword (f1), Leap Attack (3), Dodge (m1), Mobility(m2), Combat Expertise (6), ITWF (9), Spring Attack (derv 4), Elusive Target (12) The idea behind mine is being able to switch from Two-Handed power attack/leap attack goodies, to sword and board fighting (via buckler use), to TWF with B.Sword and Unarmed Strikes. The sword and board part is dependent on having a good magical buckler, else the +1 AC isn't really worth it, and using combat expertise/fighting defensively. Dervish dance doesn't suffer because you don't use the buckler during the dance. Plus you end up with better damage thanks to using a two-handed weapon in the dance. You could also end up stacking flurry on top of TWF for really low AC nobs. I also really like the good skill points this build generates. Lesser Tiefling is used because of the good ability boosts it gives for 0 LA. I'd boost strength with level-ups and rely on magic items for con and dex. I also like the defensive and mobility boost that T-A gives, plus the fact that you're never truly unarmed. Oh, I know I know, no swashbuckler levels. I just don't like them as much as I do this version. Adding Int just compounds the MAD problems. I plan on ignoring int, wis, and cha boosts unless they're discards of the party. Work time, maybe more later. Cheers Otto :)
Double M 11-18-05, 10:18 AM	Thanks again for the help... A few more questions...I said I was slow and would need some explanation. Kalstrand: thanks for the help on the Elusive Target--I'm assuming that this will apply to the AoO's I provoke during a dance, par example--I'm flanked, I make an dancing attack against one of the guys who flanks me and when I move out of the square, to dance on, I provoke AoO's from both flankers--does flanker 1 automatically hit flanker 2 or does this no longer apply because I'm no longer flanked? I guess the key question is order of action, do I move first into the next square and then they get their AoO's, or do I start to move, they see that I'm open, attack still with flanking, and then I move? I'm assuming it's the latter, but I just want clarification. Was that confusing enough--Jeesh--sorry. Otto: thanks, too. You said that "adding Int just compounds the MAD problems"--I'm afraid the only MAD's I know are Mutally Assured Destruction or to get agitated, irate, perturbed or otherwise PO'd :D --please explain.
Otto the Bugbear 11-18-05, 06:58 PM	Ah, sorry. MAD: Multiple Attribute Dependency. If you have a melee guy and Str, Dex, and Con are important, that's already a lot of abilities to keep boosted up. Adding Int gives you 4 of the 6 ability scores to boost. That's MAD. I'll help a little on the AoO part too. If you move out of a square where you are flanked, and both flankers make an AoO, they do so before you actually leave the square. AoO's resolve before the action that provoked them. If you have elusive target (and one of them was designated as the target of your dodge feat), then you can make him hit the other flanker instead. Cheers Otto :)
Double M 11-19-05, 12:56 PM	Thanks for all of your assistance! I think I'll be in the rare position of having extra feats to work with. I've decided to go Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2 and straight into Dervish thereafter, we are also allowed two flaws, so I'll have the following feat possibilities: Human: SB1 Base-Combat Exp, Human-Dodge, Flaw1-Mobility, Flaw 2-TWF F1 Bonus-Wpn focus (scimitar) SB2/F1 Standard-Combat Reflexes SB2/F2 Bonus-Deft Opportunist SB3/F2 n/a SB3/F2/Dervish1 +1 Dex, Standard-ITWF ...then what? any suggestions? I was also thinking of going elf for the Dex bonus, but I imagine there is a better alt. race from one of the available books, which are Core 3.5, Complete Series, Races of Series, but no Other settings (Eb, FR, Raven, etc), no magazines, and no non-woc materials. If you have any other suggestions, all are appreciated, or if the above build doesn't make sense for some reason, please let me know. Thanks
Double M 11-20-05, 10:18 AM	A few other questions after more reading of the char op board: In what book(s) does one find the tiefling race(s) that would work well in this build/concept? Are they only mentioned in the PFtF? Where does one find the Champion of Corellon that is rumored to do Dex to damage? If I chose to go the Champion of Corellon route, what do you think would be the best subrace of elf for such a build as SW3/F2/CCL x/Dervish (if that's even possible)?
Masked Thespian 11-20-05, 10:52 AM	A few other questions after more reading of the char op board: In what book(s) does one find the tiefling race(s) that would work well in this build/concept? Are they only mentioned in the PFtF? Where does one find the Champion of Corellon that is rumored to do Dex to damage? If I chose to go the Champion of Corellon route, what do you think would be the best subrace of elf for such a build as SW3/F2/CCL x/Dervish (if that's even possible)? I'm currently in the process of building a Half-Elf Scout 5/Fighter 2/Dervish 10/CoCL 2/Something else 1, so I might be able to help you a little here. Tiefling: located in the FRCS and the MM. The "low power" version is an OPTIONAL rule in the Player's Guide to Faerun which needs to be decided by your DM whether he's using it or not. CoCL: Races of the Wild. At secodn level, he adds Dex to damage. To be quite honest, I've looked at trying to work in Swashbuckler 3, and it's too hard IMHO. Heck, I couldn't work in Scout 5 unless I made it a Half-Elf, and not a full Elf :mad: Int to damage is nice, but there's no synergy for having it; practically no other class abilities run off of it. My Dervish actually uses an Elven Courtblade (so doesn't do TWF), but he's not designed to break a game. He's a Scout at first level, Fighter at 2/3, then Scout through to 7th. He picks up 2 levels of Dervish (9th), then 2 of CoCL (11), finishes off Dervish (19) and has one left over (any ideas?). Feats: Expeditious Dodge (1), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Courtblade (F1), Combat Expertise (3), Weapon Focus (F2), Mounted Combat (6), Mobility (S4), Weapon Finesse (9) I get a CoCL bonus feat at 10th, which has to have Mounted Combat, Combat Expertise, or Dodge as a prerequisite - I'm considering Improved Trip (and then using my one level spare for Exotic Weapon Master to take the ability to use my Courtblade to trip people with) or Karmic Sight (taking Combat Reflexes at a later level (probably 12th), but if I took Scout to 4, Fighter to 2, and Dervish to 3 before taking CoCL, I could pick up Whirlwind Attack with my bonus feat - does anyone think this is worth it? How about my other ideas?
Double M 11-21-05, 12:32 AM	Any other thoughts...anyone? Masked T: What's the heavy draw of the Scout vs. the Swashbuckler, is it primarily the skirmish damage? About 75% of the creatures our DM throws at us are immune to criticals (and thereby, skimish damage, iifc), so what are the other advantages of a scout dervish over a swashbuckler one? Do other people have thoughts about feats? since I have access to flaws, I think I'll be relatively okay on feats, I just can't decide whether to go the EWP Bastard Proficiency and the OTWF route or the more stylish feinting, tumbling scimitary dervish dancer. BTW, what feat/PrC is it that allows feinting as a free action, because that could make this concept quite fun to play (I think)? Again, if I went elf for the CoCL levels, does anyone have a favorite elf subrace/option? Thanks
Zathyr 11-21-05, 01:36 AM	Well the Swashbuckler's int to damage and the CoCL's dex to damage are also lost if the creature is immune to crits. If you want bonus damage that isn't lost on crits, that really limits the options. For something that still works with Dervish, there's: Power Attack (and Favored Power Attack for the Rangers) - needs OTWF to work well Divine Might - needs turn attempts and the Dervish dance itself, of course nothing else is really coming to mind.
Sir Gummibaerchen 11-21-05, 02:09 AM	... For something that still works with Dervish, there's: Power Attack (and Favored Power Attack for the Rangers) - needs OTWF to work well ... But not if you use scimitars, mind you! Dervish1 makes the scimitar "a light weapon (rather than an one-handed weapon) for all purposes". Here's what the SRD has to say about it, emphasis mine: POWER ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Str 13. Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.) A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Moon-Lancer 11-21-05, 02:37 AM	Masked Thespian, why do you have to be a half elf for your build? half elves dont get an extra feat. Is it some half elf or human feat that helps them with prereq?
Lellindil 11-21-05, 03:07 AM	he didnt want an xp penalty for 5 lvls of scout and 2 lvls of fighter. basicaly it comes down to how good your stats are. if you have good enough stats that you can afford to have a decent int then swash3/fight2 is the way to go. if not then go scout/fighter. as far as elf subtypes go, that will depend on how well you roll as well. Grey elf from MM is good for +2 dex and int but -2 str and con. if you dont want to do that look at wood elf in players guide to faerun. I forget the exact adjustments but I think I remember that they are pretty good, I want to say +2 str +2 dex -2 con -2 int -2 cha? but regular PHB elf works fine too IMO. also u need a +7 bab to qualify for CoCL so take lvls of dervish first. personaly i would go swash/fight if i were you, mostly because of a better base attack bonus and starting off w/ weapon finesse at 1st.
Double M 11-21-05, 10:41 AM	How does one feint as a free action? Is it built into a PrC, or is there a feat chain that allows it? It is looking like I may go Grey elf in a build something like this: SB1 Base-Combat Exp, Flaw1-Dodge, Flaw2-Mobility SB1/F1 Bonus-Wpn focus (scimitar) SB2/F1 Standard-TWF SB2/F2 Bonus-Combat Reflexes; +1 Dex SB3/F2 n/a SB3/F2/Dervish1 Standard-ITWF or Deft Opportunist SB3/F2/Dervish1/CoL1-n/a SB3/F2/Dervish1/CoL2 +1 Dex or Int SB3/F2/Dervish2/CoL2- Standard-ITWF or Deft Opp What feat(s) should I consider as I level up in Dervish? Is something missing? Does anyone have other thoughts? Thanks again to all for your assistance.
Moon-Lancer 11-21-05, 11:31 AM	invisible blade (compleat warrior) can fent as a free action. Also, the prc is alittle broken as the true prereqs were never changed (way to high and makes no sense). Someware the original writer errated it so the prereqs are not for the old class that was invisible blade and master thrower? or someting like that.
DruidWannabe 11-21-05, 11:40 AM	No, Staggering Strike allows you to trade in *sneak attack* dice for the effect. Skirmish is very different from Sneak Attack, and cannot be subbed in for qualifying for PrC's/Feats requiring Sneak Attack dice. I thought that the Complete Adventurer says you can use Skirmish and Sudden Strike to qualify for PrC's though I could be wrong. And if it does doesn't it stand to reason that you can use it to qualify for feats?
Double M 11-21-05, 02:50 PM	I just now picked up the Races of the Wild and discovered that there are significant pre-requisites to entering the class: I can handle the mounted combat, because the build I listed above gives 9 feats by 9th level, but what I can't do is figure out how to meet the weapon focus (longsword) or EWP Elven Thinblade or Courtblade requirement while still keeping in the spirit of the double weilding dancing slasher. If I go for thinblade, it is not slashing, so I can't dance with it. If I go with the longsword or the Courtblad, neither is weapon finessable. Does anyone know of another Elven one-handed weapon that is slashing that I could try to convince my DM would also allow me to enter into the Champ of CL PrC with? I really like the idea of Str, Dex, and Int to damage that this build yields, but if I can't finesse my primary hand weapon and still be a Champ of CL, then it's not really going to work as I had hoped--any other ideas? Thanks
Lellindil 11-21-05, 03:15 PM	courtblade is finessable, but a 2 hander.
kilroo 11-21-05, 03:47 PM	I thought that the Complete Adventurer says you can use Skirmish and Sudden Strike to qualify for PrC's though I could be wrong. And if it does doesn't it stand to reason that you can use it to qualify for feats? It says you can do this with sudden strike. It never says the same of skirmish. I just now picked up the Races of the Wild and discovered that there are significant pre-requisites to entering the class: I can handle the mounted combat, because the build I listed above gives 9 feats by 9th level, but what I can't do is figure out how to meet the weapon focus (longsword) or EWP Elven Thinblade or Courtblade requirement while still keeping in the spirit of the double weilding dancing slasher. If I go for thinblade, it is not slashing, so I can't dance with it. If I go with the longsword or the Courtblad, neither is weapon finessable. Does anyone know of another Elven one-handed weapon that is slashing that I could try to convince my DM would also allow me to enter into the Champ of CL PrC with? I really like the idea of Str, Dex, and Int to damage that this build yields, but if I can't finesse my primary hand weapon and still be a Champ of CL, then it's not really going to work as I had hoped--any other ideas? Thanks Go look at the courtblade again and start using weapon finesse with it. Then go find Underdark or whatever it is that has the slashing armor spikes.
Masked Thespian 11-21-05, 05:04 PM	Most of the questions asked of have already been answered, but I'll do so anyway (I'll take any chance to inflate my ego... ;) ) Masked T: What's the heavy draw of the Scout vs. the Swashbuckler, is it primarily the skirmish damage? About 75% of the creatures our DM throws at us are immune to criticals (and thereby, skimish damage, iifc), so what are the other advantages of a scout dervish over a swashbuckler one? Pretty much. With Scout 5, you get +2d6 damage - unless you have Intelligence of 24 or above, the average damage of Skirmish is more than that added to by Swashbuckler. I find the 3 levels of Swashbuckler a little bit of a waste; Weapon Finesse can be taken as a normal feat (and you get a bonus feat at Scout 4 to make up for it; admittedly, it's from a limited list but there are so many things on that list that help out that it's not that limited really) and Skirmish is better than the Intelligence damage - not only do you get damage but as long as you are moving (such as, say, in a Dervish Dance) you get bonus AC (which works really well if you've taken Expeditious Dodge instead of Dodge). The difference between a d8 and a d10 hit die is practically negligable over the long run, and you get bucketloads of skills for being a first level scout (though a high Intelligence Swashbuckler would probably rival it). As pointed out, both Skirmish and the Swashbuckler damage are negated by the same things (mainly those immune to critical hits). Also, a Scout gets a movement bonus (though it doesn't stack with that gained from the Dervish, it's equal to or better than the Dervish's for many levels, and also helps for low level useage of Expeditious Dodge). The main pluses of Swashbuckler are that it's only 3 levels, and all three of those levels give primary BAB. I just like Scout more :D Masked Thespian, why do you have to be a half elf for your build? half elves dont get an extra feat. Is it some half elf or human feat that helps them with prereq? he didnt want an xp penalty for 5 lvls of scout and 2 lvls of fighter. That'll be the one :D I tried really hard to get it to work with an Elf (for the bonus to Dex) but I just couldn't do it. Admittedly, I was also trying to shoehorn 3 levels of Swashbuckler in there too (see, I have tried to use it ;) ) but I think I was a little ambitious. I just now picked up the Races of the Wild and discovered that there are significant pre-requisites to entering the class: Notice, however, that a lot of feats overlap; (Expeditious) Dodge, Combat Expertise, and Weapon Focus Longsword (yes, if you don't use it it's a little bit of a waste, but it is a way of getting into both classes with a single feat...). Go look at the courtblade again and start using weapon finesse with it. Then go find Underdark or whatever it is that has the slashing armor spikes. Ooh... that's nasty... :schemes: I've not had any further thoughts on this matter, unfortunately, so I can't say anything else :mad: Sorry...
Double M 11-21-05, 05:57 PM	More questions: Where is the Expeditious Dodge feat and does it function as dodge in terms of pre-reqs for other feats in the Dodge chain? Even though the courtblade is finessable (thanks for the info.), it is still a two-handed weapon and doesn't work with the twf concept that I'm trying for. It seems reasonable that any elven 1-handed slashing weapon would be adequate to meet the pre-reqs for Champ of CL, but I still haven't been able to find one--does anyone know of any such weapons? It doesn't seem that it should be this hard to find a finessable slashing weapon--after all, the courtblade is finessable, the whip, the scimitar (or is that only if you're a dervish)...for crying out loud, if a spiked chain is finessable then a thin one-handed elven slasher should be too, but I guess the whip does non-lethal, the chain does piercing, and the courtblade is 2H, so maybe there shouldn't be a 1H slasher...just babbling now, many apologies...let me know if any of you know of a suitable weapon. Thanks.
Masked Thespian 11-21-05, 06:20 PM	Where is the Expeditious Dodge feat and does it function as dodge in terms of pre-reqs for other feats in the Dodge chain? Races of the Wild. And, yes, it does count as Dodge for anything and everything (though, it gets slightly skewiffy if you try and combine it with Elusive Target :confused: ) Even though the courtblade is finessable (thanks for the info.), it is still a two-handed weapon and doesn't work with the twf concept that I'm trying for. That's fair enough; I think the TWF route's much better anyway. In this case, I'd consider taking EWP Courtblade, and having one as a backup (well, you're going to take the Feat, you might as well use it :D ) It seems reasonable that any elven 1-handed slashing weapon would be adequate to meet the pre-reqs for Champ of CL,. Perhaps, but CoCL states what it specifically needs :mad: Have you seen the other Elven {something}-blade weapons in the book? I think there's a slashing Elven blade in there (could be wrong) but I think you may be best off sticking with Scimitars.
Double M 11-21-05, 07:48 PM	Races of the Wild. And, yes, it does count as Dodge for anything and everything (though, it gets slightly skewiffy if you try and combine it with Elusive Target How so? Have you seen the other Elven {something}-blade weapons in the book? I think there's a slashing Elven blade in there (could be wrong) Nope the thinblade and the ?blade (can't remember the name) are both piercing, unfortunately. I guess with no other option I can take the EWP Courtblade and use it as a backup 2H, but it doesn't seem to be very Optimized at that point--oh well...unless, of course, anyone has other ideas about one-handed finessable slashing weapons that either are or could be elf-ized. ;) Still trying to decide on SB vs. Scout--do any others have experience or thoughts on which route is better in a twf dervish build that will only go to 14 or 15th level at the absolute max?
Moon-Lancer 11-21-05, 09:01 PM	the dodge thats in races of the wild gives a multipurpus dodge while elusive target only works on the creature that you select as your dodge partner. one can look at this two ways with Expeditious Dodge working on everyone for elusive target, becuse you get the +2 dodge agensts everyone, or it works on no one becuse your not actualy selecting a persion to dodge. on another note, why not use scimitars. they become light for the dirvish, so you can finess them, but you cant power attack with them.
Lellindil 11-21-05, 09:27 PM	the prerequisite for CoCL is focus: long sword or ewp in either courtblade or thinblade. that is why he has the dilemma w/ scimitars. Just take the feat and treat it like some other feat that you will probably never use and use scimitars anyway. or convince your DM to let you be a champion of (some other elven god that has scimitar as a favored weapon). -
Moon-Lancer 11-21-05, 11:35 PM	you are right. I could have sworn that CoCL had scimitar to that list. I was wrong. Man I am wrong alot today. must be one of those days. however Elegant strike still works with scimitars. I guess go with CourtBlade.
kilroo 11-22-05, 11:58 AM	I take it you can't use Underdark? (Assuming I'm right about that being where those spikes are.) Two-weapon fighting with a two-handed weapon and armor spikes seems to be a fairly common trick around here, and just over on this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=539237) thread the use of slashing armor spikes with the courtblade for a dervish was being discussed... However I'm by no means an expert on the trick.
Double M 11-22-05, 12:11 PM	I can't use Underdark, and even if I could, my guess is that my GM would not allow the use of a 2H weapon and an "off-hand" second attack with armor blades (unless, of course, the armor blades, explicitly state that they can be used as an off-hand attack while wielding a 2H weapon-which seems somewhat unlikely). I'm thinking I'm going to have to just bite the bullet and take EWP: Courtblade to use when I'm not dancing and Weapon Focus Scimitar for duel use when I am dancing. Unfortunately this seems a sub-optimal build since I'm already wasting a feat on Mounted Combat that I'll likely never use...not sure its worth 2 unnecessary-ish feats for the Dex to Damage (no matter how tasty it is) that I get out of the CoCL--still trying to decide. I might be better off just going rogue for 3 levels to get the +2d6 SA or scout for the skirmish--still got to crunch the numbers. Further thoughts are always welcome.
kalstrand 11-22-05, 02:15 PM	If it helps any you pick up a bonus feat at level 1 of CoCL which can be used for any feat with Combat Expertise, Dodge or Mounted Combat as a prerequisite.
Double M 11-22-05, 03:33 PM	Sadly, the only useful feat for this build that has one of those three as a pre-req. is karmic strike, so that's the one I'll be using there, but it's still not optimal. If anyone can think of a better feat to fit into CoCL level 1, please let me know.
kalstrand 11-22-05, 04:11 PM	Mobility is a prerequisite of Dervish and qualifies. Elusive Target also qualifies.
SeraphimDominion 11-22-05, 04:23 PM	I'd recommend against using scimitars as a Dervish. The fact that they're always light for you works against you in two ways: You can't Power Attack and you get -4 to resist being disarmed. Both of which suck. Ive found that 2H weapons make dervish crazy, but I can understand the flavor draw of a TWF dervish. In that case, I'd heartily recommend taking Oversized TWF and using two one-handed non-scimitar slashing weapons. You can do enough damage that you don't need to burn feats to get CoCL, as well. Something simple like this, maybe: Human Ranger 2/Fighter 4/Dervish 10/Tempest 4, in that order, except that you can throw the Tempest levels in anytime after 9th level during your dervish progression. The feats would be: EWP (Bastard Sword) (1st), Power Attack (Human), TWF (Ranger Bonus), Dodge (3rd), Weapon Focus (Fighter 1), Mobility (Fighter 2), Expertise (Fighter 4), Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (6th), Spring Attack (Dervish 3), Improved TWF (9th), and then whatever feats you want for 12, 15, and 18. So at 9th level, say, he's attacking at 16/16/11/11 for 1D10+8 and 1D10+6, assuming 2 +2 swords and Str 18, which isnt that hard by 9th level. That's before Power Attack, obviously. If you were going to be playing the character to 18th, then maybe Improved Trip at 12, Focus (Battleaxe) at 15, and High Sword Low Axe at 18, and switch to Bastard/Battleaxe. If not, then probably weapon spec at 12th.
Jian 11-22-05, 05:39 PM	I'm currently playing a dual wielding character who will eventually progress into Dervish and CoCl. I ran into the same problem myself over how to use the Elven Courtblade while still wielding a weapon in my offhand but that can be solved by using an Elven Courtblade one size category smaller than yourself. According to the Player's Handbook, for every size category smaller weapon you use the effort to wield it also decreases, so for a medium sized character using a small Courtblade, he would treat it as a one-handed weapon. Of course since it's an innappropriately sized weapon, you would take a -2 penalty to attack with it, not to mention the decrease in damage from a d10 to a d8. I think the trade off is worth it though.
Otto the Bugbear 11-22-05, 07:33 PM	I'd recommend against using scimitars as a Dervish. The fact that they're always light for you works against you in two ways: You can't Power Attack and you get -4 to resist being disarmed. Both of which suck. Ive found that 2H weapons make dervish crazy... Me too, which is why I recommended the Bastard Sword / Buckler combo. That doesn't work for what this particular OP wants in the character, but you do bring up good points about using a two-handed weapon with dervish. I never considered the disarm aspect, but that does indeed suck. Cheers Otto :)
Timlagor 11-22-05, 09:45 PM	Seems silly to use a Bastard Sword 1-handed for most builds. If you drop your Int and Swash2,3 then OTW longswords works well with CoCL+Dervish. If you drop the Dervish instead then Rapiers are good. I believe there is something in the FAQ (execrable document that it is) sanctioning the use of 2Hweapon + ArmourSpikes for TWF. The problem with non-TWF for Shaw/CoCL is that you get the same Int+Dex to each attack whether 1H or 2H so you are effectively throwing away half the possible benefit (whereas you get the same total Str to damage with 2HF as TWF -rashly assuming equal hits [2HF actually hits rather more]). Improved Combat Expertise is another option for the CoCL Feat.