Bluff - How high can it go? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bluff - How high can it go? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Limit
08-08-04, 03:50 AM I wonder how high I could get my innate bluff skill and still be useful.

Yuan-ti 4* / Monk 3 / Tattooed Monk 1 / Hexblade 4 / Ancient Master 2 / Invisible Blade 5 / Fang of Sseth 1

*Using LA buy off rules from UA.

BAB: 16. Evasion and Mettle are nice.

18 Base Charisma

+02 Racial
+05 Levels
+06 Cloak of Charisma [Enhancement] 36000
+05 Tome of Leadership and Influence [Inherent] 137500

36 Charisma (+13 bonus)

Bluff:

+02 Persuasive [Unnamed]
+20 Conceal Thoughts (Arcane Master) [Circumstance]
+10 White Mask (Tatooed Monk) [Unnamed]
+03 Familiar [Unnamed]
+03 Circlet of Persuasion [Competence] 4500
+03 Skill Focus (Bluff) [Unnamed]

+41 Bluff

+23 Ranks

Total: 77

Any other bluff adding abilities or suggestions for making a strong bluff build useful?
KikUSquaNtheNuts
08-08-04, 10:31 AM Well, I still don't know if its worth it, but I would switch 4 levels of Hexblade for 4 levels of Rogue. Rogues have enough skills to dump extras in the cross-class ones you need.

You'd get +2d6 sneak attack, and also have evasion, uncanny dodge, bonus vs. traps, and trapfinding... and still have the better Hexblade abilities (Arcane Resistance, Meddle, and the familiar you want for the Bluff bonus).

I'm a big fan of Hexblade/Rogue/Invisible Blades myself... they're REALLY fun to roleplay. Meddle and Evasion on the same character is pretty kick-butt by itself.

So you'd end with Yuan-ti 4/Hexblade 4/ Rogue4/Ancient Master 2/Invisible Blade 5/Fang of Sseth 1

I'm not sure what the Fang of Sseth is because I'm still waiting to get Serpent Kingdoms... would you mind enlightening me?
CompleteSatori
08-08-04, 11:37 AM Originally posted by KikUSquaNtheNuts ... and still have the better Hexblade abilities (Arcane Resistance, Meddle, and the familiar you want for the Bluff bonus).

My MOM has that ability! Does this mean she is a Hexblade too?

<thinks> Hm, that would explain some things, wouldn't it.
KikUSquaNtheNuts
08-09-04, 12:13 PM LOL

Doh! That was supposed to be Mettle. Sorry 'bout that.
Snow Savant
08-09-04, 12:18 PM In-combat Bluff can be both risky and sub-optimal at times. Still has its value though for sneak attackers.

OTOH, a +22 Bluff out-of-combat ... for a creative and devious player is pure freakin' gold. Bluff everybody and anybody and make the world your pawn.

My MOM has that ability! Does this mean she is a Hexblade too? Ah, but she does it for your own good! :angel:

Hexblade, my ass. All Mom's are Paladins!
pawsplay
08-10-04, 02:42 AM Tattooed Monk's white mask ability offers a huge Bluff bonus early on.
Limit
08-10-04, 12:53 PM Moved this post to the first post to better match the emerging theme of the thread.
Blade2718
08-10-04, 10:20 PM Circlet of persuasion gives you +3 to all Cha-related checks. Get a +6 enhancement and a +5 inherent to your Cha, also. If you could get a pre-PGtF version of wieldskill I think you can get that to your Bluff as well.
Limit
08-11-04, 07:18 AM I was thinking about this more this morning and it might turn out to be fun. Hexblades get their Charisma to saves versus spell like abilities and it also affects the DC of the Hexblades curse.

Although it would only be 1/day, the Hexblade's curse would give one opponent a -2 skill check on Sense Motive.

The Ancient Master gets an Attraction ability (1/day) that would give them a +4 unnamed bonus on Charisma checks versus a particular creature.

I have a question though - some of these classes get Bluff as a class skill and others it would be cross class. When I'm in a class that gets it as a class skill, can I put more then one point in it to get up to the max for that level? I'm just trying to figure out if I can get 23 ranks in 20 levels or not.
carnivore
08-11-04, 07:28 AM choker of eloquence give +10(competence) bluff,diplomacy,innuendo,perform(vocal)
for only 6000gp(arms and equipment guide)
SaintX
08-11-04, 10:01 AM the ancient master and tattooed monk bonuses to bluff are both competence bonuses, therefore, they dont stack.
SandisTheGOld
08-11-04, 10:54 AM I recall a friend of mine using something called a potion of glibness I think, which gave him a plus 20 to his bluff. Not having the books in front of me, i'm not positive how he had this done.... It may have been a dm ruling.

-Sandis
Zemyla
08-11-04, 12:44 PM And none of you mentioned the Improved Feint feat? Shame!
Limit
08-11-04, 05:47 PM Originally posted by SaintX
the ancient master and tattooed monk bonuses to bluff are both competence bonuses, therefore, they dont stack.

Page 160 of Serpent Kingdoms specifically states that Conceal Thoughts adds a +20 bonus on bluff checks.

Page 84 of the Complete Warrior says this about White Mask: "He gains a +10 bonus on all Bluff checks" and does not mention circumstance at all.
Limit
08-11-04, 05:59 PM These classes have bluff as a class ability: Yuan-ti, Hexblade, Invisible Blade, Fang of Sseth

What I don't know is, does my eventual maximum ranks in Bluff get lowered because of the six total levels in CC skill classes?

If I can still get 23 ranks of bluff in 20 levels, great! Otherwise, I'd only end up with 20 ranks.
SaintX
08-12-04, 11:32 PM Originally posted by Limit
Page 160 of Serpent Kingdoms specifically states that Conceal Thoughts adds a +20 bonus on bluff checks.

Page 84 of the Complete Warrior says this about White Mask: "He gains a +10 bonus on all Bluff checks" and does not mention circumstance at all.

i was wrong about the tattooed monk, shame on me. the bonus is indeed unnamed.

however, you are incorrect (little does it matter) the ancient master indeed gives a circumstance bonus.

and yes you can have 23 ranks at level 20, you merely have to spend the extra points to make up for the levels where its not a class skill.
wow, thats a whole lot of bluff.
Skulan
08-12-04, 11:54 PM Nice call on Glibness, Sandis. It's only applicable to lying, not to feinting or other such nonsense, but a +30 unnamed bonus has its uses. A potion or some sort of item could help out when a really crucial bluff is needed (or if you need to bluff in a zone of truth).

-Skulan
BakaNoKami
08-13-04, 03:49 AM Well, while we're on Glibness.. If you didn't want to drop a bunch of money on Potions or Scrolls or Wands of it, you could spend the huge amount of 42001 gold for a constant Glibness effect on an item of your choice for +30 unnamed to Bluff while trying to lie and anyone trying to divine you to detect the lie has to pass a caster level check of 22 to get it to succeed. For 84002 you could get +60 to Bluff from two of those buggers (Heck, if you bought one you could probably Bluff someone into thinking you have the money to make you another one). It's expensive, but if you have the money to blow, why not?
Sisyfos
08-13-04, 04:24 AM Drop in a level or two of marshall to get your CHA mod to cha based skills twice.
FireAge
08-13-04, 04:50 AM Mindbender 1,5,7 gives a +6 competence to bluff.
carnivore
08-13-04, 07:04 AM just a note , as far as 3.5 once a skill is a class skill for one of your classes ,it is forevermore a class skill for you.

quote from srd:"Skills: If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)

If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill."

so dont worry ,once you get it its yours.
RogerWilco
08-13-04, 07:24 AM Originally posted by carnivore
just a note , as far as 3.5 once a skill is a class skill for one of your classes ,it is forevermore a class skill for you.

quote from srd:"Skills: If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)

If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill."

so dont worry ,once you get it its yours.

Only for determining Max ranks, not for determining how much points you need to spend to raise it one rank.
Limit
08-14-04, 01:46 PM Originally posted by Sisyfos
Drop in a level or two of marshall to get your CHA mod to cha based skills twice.

The only problem is, the Marshall's auras add a circumstance bonuses and while I know that two circumstance bonuses can stack if the circumstances are different, do I really want to worry about adjudicating here and with my DM?
Yokkyuu
08-14-04, 02:07 PM Originally posted by BakaNoKami
Well, while we're on Glibness.. If you didn't want to drop a bunch of money on Potions or Scrolls or Wands of it, you could spend the huge amount of 42001 gold for a constant Glibness effect on an item of your choice for +30 unnamed to Bluff while trying to lie and anyone trying to divine you to detect the lie has to pass a caster level check of 22 to get it to succeed. For 84002 you could get +60 to Bluff from two of those buggers (Heck, if you bought one you could probably Bluff someone into thinking you have the money to make you another one). It's expensive, but if you have the money to blow, why not?

From the 3.5 SRD... (Magic Overview)

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves

I rather think that the glibness bonus to Bluff wouldn't stack with itself, so don't bother getting more than one item of glibness.
Devant
08-14-04, 03:29 PM Originally posted by Yokkyuu
From the 3.5 SRD... (Magic Overview)

I rather think that the glibness bonus to Bluff wouldn't stack with itself, so don't bother getting more than one item of glibness.

Unamed bonuses from the same source never stack. So a Magical Doohickey of Glibness would only apply it's bonus once, no matter how many you wore. It would not stack with glibness either. As the spell glibness is the source no matter who casts it on you (item or otherwise).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Limit 08-08-04, 03:50 AM	I wonder how high I could get my innate bluff skill and still be useful. Yuan-ti 4* / Monk 3 / Tattooed Monk 1 / Hexblade 4 / Ancient Master 2 / Invisible Blade 5 / Fang of Sseth 1 *Using LA buy off rules from UA. BAB: 16. Evasion and Mettle are nice. 18 Base Charisma +02 Racial +05 Levels +06 Cloak of Charisma [Enhancement] 36000 +05 Tome of Leadership and Influence [Inherent] 137500 36 Charisma (+13 bonus) Bluff: +02 Persuasive [Unnamed] +20 Conceal Thoughts (Arcane Master) [Circumstance] +10 White Mask (Tatooed Monk) [Unnamed] +03 Familiar [Unnamed] +03 Circlet of Persuasion [Competence] 4500 +03 Skill Focus (Bluff) [Unnamed] +41 Bluff +23 Ranks Total: 77 Any other bluff adding abilities or suggestions for making a strong bluff build useful?
KikUSquaNtheNuts 08-08-04, 10:31 AM	Well, I still don't know if its worth it, but I would switch 4 levels of Hexblade for 4 levels of Rogue. Rogues have enough skills to dump extras in the cross-class ones you need. You'd get +2d6 sneak attack, and also have evasion, uncanny dodge, bonus vs. traps, and trapfinding... and still have the better Hexblade abilities (Arcane Resistance, Meddle, and the familiar you want for the Bluff bonus). I'm a big fan of Hexblade/Rogue/Invisible Blades myself... they're REALLY fun to roleplay. Meddle and Evasion on the same character is pretty kick-butt by itself. So you'd end with Yuan-ti 4/Hexblade 4/ Rogue4/Ancient Master 2/Invisible Blade 5/Fang of Sseth 1 I'm not sure what the Fang of Sseth is because I'm still waiting to get Serpent Kingdoms... would you mind enlightening me?
CompleteSatori 08-08-04, 11:37 AM	Originally posted by KikUSquaNtheNuts ... and still have the better Hexblade abilities (Arcane Resistance, Meddle, and the familiar you want for the Bluff bonus). My MOM has that ability! Does this mean she is a Hexblade too? <thinks> Hm, that would explain some things, wouldn't it.
KikUSquaNtheNuts 08-09-04, 12:13 PM	LOL Doh! That was supposed to be Mettle. Sorry 'bout that.
Snow Savant 08-09-04, 12:18 PM	In-combat Bluff can be both risky and sub-optimal at times. Still has its value though for sneak attackers. OTOH, a +22 Bluff out-of-combat ... for a creative and devious player is pure freakin' gold. Bluff everybody and anybody and make the world your pawn. My MOM has that ability! Does this mean she is a Hexblade too? Ah, but she does it for your own good! :angel: Hexblade, my ass. All Mom's are Paladins!
pawsplay 08-10-04, 02:42 AM	Tattooed Monk's white mask ability offers a huge Bluff bonus early on.
Limit 08-10-04, 12:53 PM	Moved this post to the first post to better match the emerging theme of the thread.
Blade2718 08-10-04, 10:20 PM	Circlet of persuasion gives you +3 to all Cha-related checks. Get a +6 enhancement and a +5 inherent to your Cha, also. If you could get a pre-PGtF version of wieldskill I think you can get that to your Bluff as well.
Limit 08-11-04, 07:18 AM	I was thinking about this more this morning and it might turn out to be fun. Hexblades get their Charisma to saves versus spell like abilities and it also affects the DC of the Hexblades curse. Although it would only be 1/day, the Hexblade's curse would give one opponent a -2 skill check on Sense Motive. The Ancient Master gets an Attraction ability (1/day) that would give them a +4 unnamed bonus on Charisma checks versus a particular creature. I have a question though - some of these classes get Bluff as a class skill and others it would be cross class. When I'm in a class that gets it as a class skill, can I put more then one point in it to get up to the max for that level? I'm just trying to figure out if I can get 23 ranks in 20 levels or not.
carnivore 08-11-04, 07:28 AM	choker of eloquence give +10(competence) bluff,diplomacy,innuendo,perform(vocal) for only 6000gp(arms and equipment guide)
SaintX 08-11-04, 10:01 AM	the ancient master and tattooed monk bonuses to bluff are both competence bonuses, therefore, they dont stack.
SandisTheGOld 08-11-04, 10:54 AM	I recall a friend of mine using something called a potion of glibness I think, which gave him a plus 20 to his bluff. Not having the books in front of me, i'm not positive how he had this done.... It may have been a dm ruling. -Sandis
Zemyla 08-11-04, 12:44 PM	And none of you mentioned the Improved Feint feat? Shame!
Limit 08-11-04, 05:47 PM	Originally posted by SaintX the ancient master and tattooed monk bonuses to bluff are both competence bonuses, therefore, they dont stack. Page 160 of Serpent Kingdoms specifically states that Conceal Thoughts adds a +20 bonus on bluff checks. Page 84 of the Complete Warrior says this about White Mask: "He gains a +10 bonus on all Bluff checks" and does not mention circumstance at all.
Limit 08-11-04, 05:59 PM	These classes have bluff as a class ability: Yuan-ti, Hexblade, Invisible Blade, Fang of Sseth What I don't know is, does my eventual maximum ranks in Bluff get lowered because of the six total levels in CC skill classes? If I can still get 23 ranks of bluff in 20 levels, great! Otherwise, I'd only end up with 20 ranks.
SaintX 08-12-04, 11:32 PM	Originally posted by Limit Page 160 of Serpent Kingdoms specifically states that Conceal Thoughts adds a +20 bonus on bluff checks. Page 84 of the Complete Warrior says this about White Mask: "He gains a +10 bonus on all Bluff checks" and does not mention circumstance at all. i was wrong about the tattooed monk, shame on me. the bonus is indeed unnamed. however, you are incorrect (little does it matter) the ancient master indeed gives a circumstance bonus. and yes you can have 23 ranks at level 20, you merely have to spend the extra points to make up for the levels where its not a class skill. wow, thats a whole lot of bluff.
Skulan 08-12-04, 11:54 PM	Nice call on Glibness, Sandis. It's only applicable to lying, not to feinting or other such nonsense, but a +30 unnamed bonus has its uses. A potion or some sort of item could help out when a really crucial bluff is needed (or if you need to bluff in a zone of truth). -Skulan
BakaNoKami 08-13-04, 03:49 AM	Well, while we're on Glibness.. If you didn't want to drop a bunch of money on Potions or Scrolls or Wands of it, you could spend the huge amount of 42001 gold for a constant Glibness effect on an item of your choice for +30 unnamed to Bluff while trying to lie and anyone trying to divine you to detect the lie has to pass a caster level check of 22 to get it to succeed. For 84002 you could get +60 to Bluff from two of those buggers (Heck, if you bought one you could probably Bluff someone into thinking you have the money to make you another one). It's expensive, but if you have the money to blow, why not?
Sisyfos 08-13-04, 04:24 AM	Drop in a level or two of marshall to get your CHA mod to cha based skills twice.
FireAge 08-13-04, 04:50 AM	Mindbender 1,5,7 gives a +6 competence to bluff.
carnivore 08-13-04, 07:04 AM	just a note , as far as 3.5 once a skill is a class skill for one of your classes ,it is forevermore a class skill for you. quote from srd:"Skills: If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.) If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill." so dont worry ,once you get it its yours.
RogerWilco 08-13-04, 07:24 AM	Originally posted by carnivore just a note , as far as 3.5 once a skill is a class skill for one of your classes ,it is forevermore a class skill for you. quote from srd:"Skills: If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.) If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill." so dont worry ,once you get it its yours. Only for determining Max ranks, not for determining how much points you need to spend to raise it one rank.
Limit 08-14-04, 01:46 PM	Originally posted by Sisyfos Drop in a level or two of marshall to get your CHA mod to cha based skills twice. The only problem is, the Marshall's auras add a circumstance bonuses and while I know that two circumstance bonuses can stack if the circumstances are different, do I really want to worry about adjudicating here and with my DM?
Yokkyuu 08-14-04, 02:07 PM	Originally posted by BakaNoKami Well, while we're on Glibness.. If you didn't want to drop a bunch of money on Potions or Scrolls or Wands of it, you could spend the huge amount of 42001 gold for a constant Glibness effect on an item of your choice for +30 unnamed to Bluff while trying to lie and anyone trying to divine you to detect the lie has to pass a caster level check of 22 to get it to succeed. For 84002 you could get +60 to Bluff from two of those buggers (Heck, if you bought one you could probably Bluff someone into thinking you have the money to make you another one). It's expensive, but if you have the money to blow, why not? From the 3.5 SRD... (Magic Overview) Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves I rather think that the glibness bonus to Bluff wouldn't stack with itself, so don't bother getting more than one item of glibness.
Devant 08-14-04, 03:29 PM	Originally posted by Yokkyuu From the 3.5 SRD... (Magic Overview) I rather think that the glibness bonus to Bluff wouldn't stack with itself, so don't bother getting more than one item of glibness. Unamed bonuses from the same source never stack. So a Magical Doohickey of Glibness would only apply it's bonus once, no matter how many you wore. It would not stack with glibness either. As the spell glibness is the source no matter who casts it on you (item or otherwise).