Board Policy Regarding Extra Spell [Archive] - Wizards Community

Board Policy Regarding Extra Spell [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Warmage_Smurf
12-28-05, 07:41 PM Greetings all,

So I was looking through LoP's excellent series of dirty tricks, specifically the "Attack of the Clones" one, and I noticed there was a bit of an argument regarding the use of Extra Spell to gain you spells from outside your class list. Therefore, I'm wondering if anyone can provide me with a definitive ruling regarding whether or not the feat can actually be used in such a way?

Failing a definitive ruling, some sort of persuasive argument either way would be good too...

I mean, as far as I can see, it (the feat) doesn't actually ban spells from outside your class list, but it does seem a bit wrong to allow classes to get spells from other class lists...

Opinions, everyone?
Xeraph
12-28-05, 07:50 PM Since its possible with other methods to gain acces to spells from outside your spells list, by domains and initiate feats, and the wording in the feat description in no way says that the extra spell must be chosen from your spell list, not even by the wizard example, then I would say any spell. Both RAW and RAI it think they meant this.

Then we come across the whole Archivist problem... Lowest level spells and so on. But within reason, or a DM, the feat is no way as powerful as other feats found laying around. So I see no problem with it.
TheGinko
12-28-05, 10:12 PM I'd argue that an Arcanist doesn't have a spell list of his own (RAI) and pretty much filches what he can find... Yes this leads to a problem over Divine Magic Items, and the Arcanists use there of, so perhaps it should be expressed more eloquently, but the idea Arcanists have every Divine Spell on thier list is just a big loophole waiting for the truck to drive through.
HalasterAteMyHamster
12-28-05, 10:41 PM I'd argue that an Arcanist doesn't have a spell list of his own (RAI) and pretty much filches what he can find... Yes this leads to a problem over Divine Magic Items, and the Arcanists use there of, so perhaps it should be expressed more eloquently, but the idea Arcanists have every Divine Spell on thier list is just a big loophole waiting for the truck to drive through.
I'm pretty sure that by RAW, the Archivist's spell list is that of the Cleric. The ability to add other spells to his Prayer Book is seperate.
Todd
12-28-05, 10:53 PM Since its possible with other methods to gain acces to spells from outside your spells list, by domains and initiate feats, and the wording in the feat description in no way says that the extra spell must be chosen from your spell list, not even by the wizard example, then I would say any spell. Both RAW and RAI it think they meant this.

Agree 100%
LightAcolyte
12-29-05, 01:16 AM Agree 100%
Ditto!
tsuyoshikentsu
12-29-05, 01:31 AM Ditto. The Archivist does indeed use the Clr list, but Extra Spell does not include "spell list" except wiith the prefix "add to."
runestar
12-29-05, 05:39 AM I am not really sure if there is an official stance at all. Even as we speak, the opinions of the various individuals on the board are pretty much divided. It will really have to boil down to what your dm rules.
deathwishjoe
12-29-05, 05:39 AM Id agree as well. I mean look at how many spells you can add to your list with arcane disciple. and those are diffinatly not normally on your spell list. I feel when compared to other feats it is nether overpowered or unbalancing. according to the RAW its also legal. no questioning it. it makes no reference to only choosing spells on your own class list. I try to ignore RAI completely although I feel it might support this use of the feat. but for all we know RAI could be a feat to allow fighters to wear pretty pink dresses during combat to distract there opponents but due to a relapse into an acid trip from the 70s we got this feat instead. you never know.
SigmaJargon
12-29-05, 05:49 AM I am not really sure if there is an official stance at all. Even as we speak, the opinions of the various individuals on the board are pretty much divided. It will really have to boil down to what your dm rules.Really? I've seen much more support for the "choose a spell, any spell" interpretation than against. Having read the feat over and contemplated its meaning, I agree with the previous posters in that it can be used to acquire spells off of one's traditional spell list. Beyond the RAW, it seems balanced to give up a feat in exchange for one and only one spell. The only problems arise when you mix it with spells lists that have amazing spells at absurdly low levels.
colm_l
12-29-05, 07:00 AM There are feats (like the initiate feats) & other options (domains) that add spells to your list & give a second ability.

I don't see why people are so hung up on the fact that "extra spell" doesn't specifically spell out it allows other lists.

Otherwise it's solely of use to "spells known" type casters.
runestar
12-29-05, 10:59 AM Lets take a look at some feats which add spells to class lists.
Arcane disciple - requires good wis to maximise potential, each spell useable only 1/day.
Various initiate feats - subject to roleplaying/deity restrictions, little/no control over what spells are added, most are crap anyways.
Blessed of 7 sisters/other similiar feats - same as initiate feats.
You win some, you lose some.

The current stance is this: By the RAW, extra spell can't be used to acquire cross class spells, making it useless save for spontaneous spellcasters. But it makes a decent houserule since general consensus is that there is nothing inherently overpowered/broken about allowing this. Stuff like heal as a 5th lv spell or otto's irresistable dance as a 6th lv spell are balanced against a feat tradeoff, IMO.
ronyon
12-29-05, 11:47 AM OK, I know the Sage is often considered an idiot, and Customer Service a bunch of bumbling fools, but seeing as they are the only "official" sources of new info on already published rules that can actually be questioned(gasp for air :embarrass ), has anyone actually asked either of them?

If so what did they have to say?

What I would really like to know is what the writer of feat intended.
I sometimes wonder if these guys even play 3.5.
My experience talking to guys who have written for other games(Gurps,Hero) suggests that writing for games is a "No job to big, no fee to small" sort of world,and that the quality and experience of writers(and editors!) tends to reflect that.
Not to say that all of them are hacks, just that there is plenty of room for hacks, since they work cheap and get the job done.
FlimFlam
12-29-05, 12:55 PM Anyone have the actual wording of Extra Spell?
MechaboyDos
12-29-05, 01:52 PM Well, I know how much you guys hate Customer Service, but here's the response I got:

Can the Extra Spell feat from Complete Arcane be used to learn spells from other than a character's normal spell list? For instance, can a Wizard/Sorcerer use Extra Spell to learn Heal, Greater Restoration, and other such Cleric only spells? Could a Warmage take Extra Spell to learn Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace/Eagle's Splendor etc?

No, he cannot do this. He can only choose a spell on his spell list. This feat is useful if the DM allows spells from other sourcebooks in a limited format (for instance they are so uncommon that they have to be researched or discovered while adventuring.)

Good Gaming!
BarbeChenue
12-29-05, 02:20 PM Well, we have this ruling above that makes the feat under average in terms of usefulness for spontaneous spellcasters, and almost completely useless for the other spellcasters. Or we can take the same approach as they did in the Expanded Psionic Handbook with the "Expanded Knowledge" feat, and allow cross-class spells to be learned.

I think that unless it is specifically errataed, we'll have no definite answer. Until then, I'd go discuss that with my DM if I wanted a concrete ruling.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Warmage_Smurf 12-28-05, 07:41 PM	Greetings all, So I was looking through LoP's excellent series of dirty tricks, specifically the "Attack of the Clones" one, and I noticed there was a bit of an argument regarding the use of Extra Spell to gain you spells from outside your class list. Therefore, I'm wondering if anyone can provide me with a definitive ruling regarding whether or not the feat can actually be used in such a way? Failing a definitive ruling, some sort of persuasive argument either way would be good too... I mean, as far as I can see, it (the feat) doesn't actually ban spells from outside your class list, but it does seem a bit wrong to allow classes to get spells from other class lists... Opinions, everyone?
Xeraph 12-28-05, 07:50 PM	Since its possible with other methods to gain acces to spells from outside your spells list, by domains and initiate feats, and the wording in the feat description in no way says that the extra spell must be chosen from your spell list, not even by the wizard example, then I would say any spell. Both RAW and RAI it think they meant this. Then we come across the whole Archivist problem... Lowest level spells and so on. But within reason, or a DM, the feat is no way as powerful as other feats found laying around. So I see no problem with it.
TheGinko 12-28-05, 10:12 PM	I'd argue that an Arcanist doesn't have a spell list of his own (RAI) and pretty much filches what he can find... Yes this leads to a problem over Divine Magic Items, and the Arcanists use there of, so perhaps it should be expressed more eloquently, but the idea Arcanists have every Divine Spell on thier list is just a big loophole waiting for the truck to drive through.
HalasterAteMyHamster 12-28-05, 10:41 PM	I'd argue that an Arcanist doesn't have a spell list of his own (RAI) and pretty much filches what he can find... Yes this leads to a problem over Divine Magic Items, and the Arcanists use there of, so perhaps it should be expressed more eloquently, but the idea Arcanists have every Divine Spell on thier list is just a big loophole waiting for the truck to drive through. I'm pretty sure that by RAW, the Archivist's spell list is that of the Cleric. The ability to add other spells to his Prayer Book is seperate.
Todd 12-28-05, 10:53 PM	Since its possible with other methods to gain acces to spells from outside your spells list, by domains and initiate feats, and the wording in the feat description in no way says that the extra spell must be chosen from your spell list, not even by the wizard example, then I would say any spell. Both RAW and RAI it think they meant this. Agree 100%
LightAcolyte 12-29-05, 01:16 AM	Agree 100% Ditto!
tsuyoshikentsu 12-29-05, 01:31 AM	Ditto. The Archivist does indeed use the Clr list, but Extra Spell does not include "spell list" except wiith the prefix "add to."
runestar 12-29-05, 05:39 AM	I am not really sure if there is an official stance at all. Even as we speak, the opinions of the various individuals on the board are pretty much divided. It will really have to boil down to what your dm rules.
deathwishjoe 12-29-05, 05:39 AM	Id agree as well. I mean look at how many spells you can add to your list with arcane disciple. and those are diffinatly not normally on your spell list. I feel when compared to other feats it is nether overpowered or unbalancing. according to the RAW its also legal. no questioning it. it makes no reference to only choosing spells on your own class list. I try to ignore RAI completely although I feel it might support this use of the feat. but for all we know RAI could be a feat to allow fighters to wear pretty pink dresses during combat to distract there opponents but due to a relapse into an acid trip from the 70s we got this feat instead. you never know.
SigmaJargon 12-29-05, 05:49 AM	I am not really sure if there is an official stance at all. Even as we speak, the opinions of the various individuals on the board are pretty much divided. It will really have to boil down to what your dm rules.Really? I've seen much more support for the "choose a spell, any spell" interpretation than against. Having read the feat over and contemplated its meaning, I agree with the previous posters in that it can be used to acquire spells off of one's traditional spell list. Beyond the RAW, it seems balanced to give up a feat in exchange for one and only one spell. The only problems arise when you mix it with spells lists that have amazing spells at absurdly low levels.
colm_l 12-29-05, 07:00 AM	There are feats (like the initiate feats) & other options (domains) that add spells to your list & give a second ability. I don't see why people are so hung up on the fact that "extra spell" doesn't specifically spell out it allows other lists. Otherwise it's solely of use to "spells known" type casters.
runestar 12-29-05, 10:59 AM	Lets take a look at some feats which add spells to class lists. Arcane disciple - requires good wis to maximise potential, each spell useable only 1/day. Various initiate feats - subject to roleplaying/deity restrictions, little/no control over what spells are added, most are crap anyways. Blessed of 7 sisters/other similiar feats - same as initiate feats. You win some, you lose some. The current stance is this: By the RAW, extra spell can't be used to acquire cross class spells, making it useless save for spontaneous spellcasters. But it makes a decent houserule since general consensus is that there is nothing inherently overpowered/broken about allowing this. Stuff like heal as a 5th lv spell or otto's irresistable dance as a 6th lv spell are balanced against a feat tradeoff, IMO.
ronyon 12-29-05, 11:47 AM	OK, I know the Sage is often considered an idiot, and Customer Service a bunch of bumbling fools, but seeing as they are the only "official" sources of new info on already published rules that can actually be questioned(gasp for air :embarrass ), has anyone actually asked either of them? If so what did they have to say? What I would really like to know is what the writer of feat intended. I sometimes wonder if these guys even play 3.5. My experience talking to guys who have written for other games(Gurps,Hero) suggests that writing for games is a "No job to big, no fee to small" sort of world,and that the quality and experience of writers(and editors!) tends to reflect that. Not to say that all of them are hacks, just that there is plenty of room for hacks, since they work cheap and get the job done.
FlimFlam 12-29-05, 12:55 PM	Anyone have the actual wording of Extra Spell?
MechaboyDos 12-29-05, 01:52 PM	Well, I know how much you guys hate Customer Service, but here's the response I got: Can the Extra Spell feat from Complete Arcane be used to learn spells from other than a character's normal spell list? For instance, can a Wizard/Sorcerer use Extra Spell to learn Heal, Greater Restoration, and other such Cleric only spells? Could a Warmage take Extra Spell to learn Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace/Eagle's Splendor etc? No, he cannot do this. He can only choose a spell on his spell list. This feat is useful if the DM allows spells from other sourcebooks in a limited format (for instance they are so uncommon that they have to be researched or discovered while adventuring.) Good Gaming!
BarbeChenue 12-29-05, 02:20 PM	Well, we have this ruling above that makes the feat under average in terms of usefulness for spontaneous spellcasters, and almost completely useless for the other spellcasters. Or we can take the same approach as they did in the Expanded Psionic Handbook with the "Expanded Knowledge" feat, and allow cross-class spells to be learned. I think that unless it is specifically errataed, we'll have no definite answer. Until then, I'd go discuss that with my DM if I wanted a concrete ruling.