Book of Vile Loopholes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Book of Vile Loopholes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Caelic
10-05-05, 07:17 PM We've all done it. Maybe the author of a particular rules passage was tired, or simply assumed that it would be read reasonably. Whatever the reason, he left enough wiggle room that a very literal reading can produce a ludicrous result...one CLEARLY outside the intent of the rules, but nonetheless technically (or at least arguably) legal by the letter of the law.

I thought it might be fun to have a spot for those loopholes, a place for the vilest of rules lawyering. Let's try to steer clear of the well-known and well-documented loopholes and see what we can come up with that's off the beaten path.

First offering: the Runesmith's Permanent Rune. Technically, the ability says you can make a "chosen spell" into a spell-like ability. It doesn't ever explicitly say that it has to be a spell you know, or even an arcane spell.

Exploitable? Discuss. ;)
Tleilaxu_Ghola
10-05-05, 07:24 PM I definately think that my uses of ride skill would qualify here: where the PC is the mount, mounted by his mount. Then the rider (a familar, animal companion, whatever) uses spirited charge, mounted combat (to negate a hit), or whatever ride tricks you can think of.
Caelic
10-05-05, 07:28 PM It's a good start, Tleilaxu, but take it farther. What if the "mount" is a trip-monster fighter with Elusive Target? Provoke an AoO. If the enemy misses you, trip him for free. If he hits, your rider can use Mounted Combat to CANCEL that hit, ensuring that he misses you. You trip him for free.

Furthermore, Mounted Combat is limited in that the rider can only negate a hit once per turn. Who said a mount can only have one rider, though? How 'bout multiple very small "riders?"
X-Codes
10-05-05, 07:30 PM It also doesn't say that you need to use any components used in the spell except during the scribing, effectively making it Cheater of Mystra Lite.

Then theres all those "your type changes to Outsider" abilities, which depending on how you read it would grant Martial Weapon Proficiency, Darkvision, and Low-Light Vision.

Otherworldy feat worth 3x what another regional feat is.

Then theres the Verminlord... In addition to everything else he can do before adopting the PrC, he can now cast sorcerer spells as a 20th level caster.
Caelic
10-05-05, 07:33 PM I'm rather fond of the Vigilante as an Arcane Strike type of character. Granted, his spellcasting bites until seventh level--and then, all of a sudden, he has 20 third level spells, increasing to 33 by tenth level. (Typo? What typo? It's right there in the rules! ;) )
lostone
12-01-05, 09:11 AM :bump: cuz this is a great concept that needs more exploration.
Khazra Reborn
12-01-05, 11:01 AM Then theres all those "your type changes to Outsider" abilities, which depending on how you read it would grant Martial Weapon Proficiency, Darkvision, and Low-Light Vision.
Outsiders also get proficiency in any armour they are described as wearing. With a swift "my character's wearing heavy armour", heavy armour proficiency has been described straight into you character, yummy gish food!
Rashomon
12-01-05, 11:18 AM I'm surprised nobody's mentioned these...

Festering Anger - Why yes, I gain Strength in exchange for Con damage until I die. What happens if I'm immune to ability damage? Can't die, can I?

Magelord's spell cheese - a while back, somebody mentioned the magelord's ability to convert a memorized spell into another spell which had Spell Mastery applied to it, as well as split higher-level spells up into lower level spells. However, the text did not impose sensible limits like "you may convert a spell into a spell of the same level that is affected by Spell Mastery,"

This leads to the case where you can break a level 9 spell into 9 level 1 spells, then spontaneously cast them into Mastered level 9 spells. There is no ad infinitum splitting cheese, I believe, since they're not converted in the slot, just converted in the casting, but it does mean you can take your total spell levels as a magelord and declare "I have this many level 9 spells per day".

Manipulate Form - I rest my case.
lostone
12-01-05, 12:13 PM Festering Anger - Why yes, I gain Strength in exchange for Con damage until I die. What happens if I'm immune to ability damage? Can't die, can I?I didn't mention this one because of the OP's "Let's try to steer clear of the well-known and well-documented loopholes and see what we can come up with that's off the beaten path." comment. However to comment on Festering Anger, what really makes it bad is that in the 1st or 2nd level of Cancer Mage in the same book you become immune to the negative effects of diseases. How they didn't catch the combination of those two in the same book beats me. Especially since the strength gain is cumulative every day. First thread I found with this someone commented they played a character with that and when game ended had had strength over 30,000.

Magelord's spell cheese - a while back, somebody mentioned the magelord's ability to convert a memorized spell into another spell which had Spell Mastery applied to it, as well as split higher-level spells up into lower level spells. However, the text did not impose sensible limits like "you may convert a spell into a spell of the same level that is affected by Spell Mastery," I wasn't aware of this abuse, must not have been around for its discussion.

Manipulate Form - I rest my case.Is not in BoVD that I am aware of, it is in FR - Serpent Kingdoms.
fnord
12-01-05, 01:17 PM First offering: the Runesmith's Permanent Rune. Technically, the ability says you can make a "chosen spell" into a spell-like ability. It doesn't ever explicitly say that it has to be a spell you know, or even an arcane spell.

Exploitable? Discuss. ;)
Um...Wow. Quickened, Twinned, Repeated, Heightened (to 10^9999 level) Miracle.

And if "chosen spell" could include an Epic Spell...
Zemyla
12-01-05, 01:38 PM If you're using fractional BAB, then you can take a level of Disciple of Mammon. From what I can tell, it gets 1 3/4 BAB at 1st level.

If you have an ability that lets you reroll once a day, you can use it on the warp touch disease, greatly increasing the chances of getting something beneficial. Since there's a sword that inflicts warp touch, you can gain all sorts of nifty abilities.

Also, a cancer mage might be able to ignore the bad effects of warp touch and get only the beneficial ones.
fnord
12-01-05, 01:53 PM If you have an ability that lets you reroll once a day, you can use it on the warp touch disease, greatly increasing the chances of getting something beneficial. Since there's a sword that inflicts warp touch, you can gain all sorts of nifty abilities.

Also, a cancer mage might be able to ignore the bad effects of warp touch and get only the beneficial ones.
That sounds interesting. Where is warp touch from?
The same rerolling trick could be used with Phase Slime, from the ELH. A variety of effects, some good and some bad, affect people around it when it's destroyed.
SigmaJargon
12-01-05, 02:01 PM That sounds interesting. Where is warp touch from?
The same rerolling trick could be used with Phase Slime, from the ELH. A variety of effects, some good and some bad, affect people around it when it's destroyed.Warp Touch is from the BoVD. Long ago, I toyed with the idea of using a cancer mage with the aforementioned sword who would continually hit himself (and then heal himself of the disease, I think I managed to find a spell that did the trick without hurting/killing the cancer mage in the process) until he got roll twice any given number of times. Problem with this is the time required to pull it off grew exponentially large if you wanted to get a whole bunch of ability from it at once. I think one of the cooler ones to acquire a few hundred times over was the medium viper that grows as an extra limb. :D
Prominence
12-01-05, 03:14 PM I'm not sure if this works, but it seems like the right place.

The Archmage's ability
Spell-Like Ability

An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.

Now, this is peculiar when you reach epic. As epic wizard spells are still arcane, epic wizard spells are still arcane spells. Therefore, you can sacrifice an epic spellslot to turn an epic spell into a spell-like ability.

What is the advantage of this? Well, normally to cast an epic spell you need to make a spellcraft check. As it's now a spell-like ability, you no longer need to make that check since you can just activate it mentally (ie, it's not being 'cast'). You're also sacrificing an epic spellslot and, in return, getting 2/day use of this particular epic spell.
The spell is now a spell-like ability, meaning it can be affected by spell-like ability feats, such as quicken, maximize, etc.
Spell-like abilities can't be counterspelled. You can use it in full plate without penalty.

So you bypass the 'spellcraft mitigating factor' and 'metamagic feats cannot be used on epic spells' rules. For a good example, you can snag Vengeful Gaze of God, modified to not have the backlash damage, put it into the spell-like ability, and be able to use it at level 22.
swanyusd
12-01-05, 03:55 PM I'm not sure if this works, but it seems like the right place.

So you bypass the 'spellcraft mitigating factor' and 'metamagic feats cannot be used on epic spells' rules. For a good example, you can snag Vengeful Gaze of God, modified to not have the backlash damage, put it into the spell-like ability, and be able to use it at level 22.

Problem with this is you need to make the spellcraft check once to have learned it, as well as the spellcraft check to cast it. Soooo, you won't be able to have any old epic spell here. Perhaps you could have one, but the spellcraft dc would be pretty low anyway, cuz you can take 10 in casting epic spells, and would also cost a LOT in xp to make a spell-like ability because it explicitly states so in the archmage ability.

Now... the archmage ability arcane reach can be used with any spells with range touch because it doesn't say only arcane spells. So, mystic theurge types with a level or however many of archmage can "harm" from ranges of 30-150 depending on how many levels he has taken (and of course kept taking arcane reach).
Prominence
12-01-05, 04:02 PM Problem with this is you need to make the spellcraft check once to have learned it,
Hmm, the SRD didn't say you had to make the check to actually craft it, just to cast it. I didn't do an outstandingly thorough check

as well as the spellcraft check to cast it.
You are no longer casting the spell, you are activating your spell-like ability

and would also cost a LOT in xp to make a spell-like ability because it explicitly states so in the archmage ability.
Actually, it would cost no XP, as the archmage ability only states the XP cost if a special material or XP cost is already present.
ComplexSimplicity
12-01-05, 05:32 PM Renegade Mastermaker (Magic of Eberron)

At level 7 you get the ability to "Embed Component", which allows you to attach or embed warforged components just like a warforged, in addition, every component you embed or attach grants you +1 Bonus Hitpoint.

Rules for Warforged Components state that anything you can make as a magical item, can be made as a warforged component.

Dull Grey Ioun Stone (XPH) has a base price of 25gp.

This is a slotless, item that floats around your head. But make an Embedded Component version of it "The Everspinning Cog(Gear, Spindle, Whirlygig, Etc.)" and for your Renegade Mastermaker, you have the option of paying 25GP for +1 Hit Point, or crafting it for less, and paying 1XP per Hitpoint. Since it's slotless, and technically weightless, you can make and embed as many "Everspinning Cogs" as you want, gaining +1 HP for each of them.

I haven't finished my "Tin Soldier of Fortune" build, but imagine a level 19/20 build with somewhere over +10,000 HP.
catharz
12-01-05, 05:38 PM Who said a mount can only have one rider, though? How 'bout multiple very small "riders?"

There are rules for this. IIRC they were in a Dragon magazine.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caelic 10-05-05, 07:17 PM	We've all done it. Maybe the author of a particular rules passage was tired, or simply assumed that it would be read reasonably. Whatever the reason, he left enough wiggle room that a very literal reading can produce a ludicrous result...one CLEARLY outside the intent of the rules, but nonetheless technically (or at least arguably) legal by the letter of the law. I thought it might be fun to have a spot for those loopholes, a place for the vilest of rules lawyering. Let's try to steer clear of the well-known and well-documented loopholes and see what we can come up with that's off the beaten path. First offering: the Runesmith's Permanent Rune. Technically, the ability says you can make a "chosen spell" into a spell-like ability. It doesn't ever explicitly say that it has to be a spell you know, or even an arcane spell. Exploitable? Discuss. ;)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-05-05, 07:24 PM	I definately think that my uses of ride skill would qualify here: where the PC is the mount, mounted by his mount. Then the rider (a familar, animal companion, whatever) uses spirited charge, mounted combat (to negate a hit), or whatever ride tricks you can think of.
Caelic 10-05-05, 07:28 PM	It's a good start, Tleilaxu, but take it farther. What if the "mount" is a trip-monster fighter with Elusive Target? Provoke an AoO. If the enemy misses you, trip him for free. If he hits, your rider can use Mounted Combat to CANCEL that hit, ensuring that he misses you. You trip him for free. Furthermore, Mounted Combat is limited in that the rider can only negate a hit once per turn. Who said a mount can only have one rider, though? How 'bout multiple very small "riders?"
X-Codes 10-05-05, 07:30 PM	It also doesn't say that you need to use any components used in the spell except during the scribing, effectively making it Cheater of Mystra Lite. Then theres all those "your type changes to Outsider" abilities, which depending on how you read it would grant Martial Weapon Proficiency, Darkvision, and Low-Light Vision. Otherworldy feat worth 3x what another regional feat is. Then theres the Verminlord... In addition to everything else he can do before adopting the PrC, he can now cast sorcerer spells as a 20th level caster.
Caelic 10-05-05, 07:33 PM	I'm rather fond of the Vigilante as an Arcane Strike type of character. Granted, his spellcasting bites until seventh level--and then, all of a sudden, he has 20 third level spells, increasing to 33 by tenth level. (Typo? What typo? It's right there in the rules! ;) )
lostone 12-01-05, 09:11 AM	:bump: cuz this is a great concept that needs more exploration.
Khazra Reborn 12-01-05, 11:01 AM	Then theres all those "your type changes to Outsider" abilities, which depending on how you read it would grant Martial Weapon Proficiency, Darkvision, and Low-Light Vision. Outsiders also get proficiency in any armour they are described as wearing. With a swift "my character's wearing heavy armour", heavy armour proficiency has been described straight into you character, yummy gish food!
Rashomon 12-01-05, 11:18 AM	I'm surprised nobody's mentioned these... Festering Anger - Why yes, I gain Strength in exchange for Con damage until I die. What happens if I'm immune to ability damage? Can't die, can I? Magelord's spell cheese - a while back, somebody mentioned the magelord's ability to convert a memorized spell into another spell which had Spell Mastery applied to it, as well as split higher-level spells up into lower level spells. However, the text did not impose sensible limits like "you may convert a spell into a spell of the same level that is affected by Spell Mastery," This leads to the case where you can break a level 9 spell into 9 level 1 spells, then spontaneously cast them into Mastered level 9 spells. There is no ad infinitum splitting cheese, I believe, since they're not converted in the slot, just converted in the casting, but it does mean you can take your total spell levels as a magelord and declare "I have this many level 9 spells per day". Manipulate Form - I rest my case.
lostone 12-01-05, 12:13 PM	Festering Anger - Why yes, I gain Strength in exchange for Con damage until I die. What happens if I'm immune to ability damage? Can't die, can I?I didn't mention this one because of the OP's "Let's try to steer clear of the well-known and well-documented loopholes and see what we can come up with that's off the beaten path." comment. However to comment on Festering Anger, what really makes it bad is that in the 1st or 2nd level of Cancer Mage in the same book you become immune to the negative effects of diseases. How they didn't catch the combination of those two in the same book beats me. Especially since the strength gain is cumulative every day. First thread I found with this someone commented they played a character with that and when game ended had had strength over 30,000. Magelord's spell cheese - a while back, somebody mentioned the magelord's ability to convert a memorized spell into another spell which had Spell Mastery applied to it, as well as split higher-level spells up into lower level spells. However, the text did not impose sensible limits like "you may convert a spell into a spell of the same level that is affected by Spell Mastery," I wasn't aware of this abuse, must not have been around for its discussion. Manipulate Form - I rest my case.Is not in BoVD that I am aware of, it is in FR - Serpent Kingdoms.
fnord 12-01-05, 01:17 PM	First offering: the Runesmith's Permanent Rune. Technically, the ability says you can make a "chosen spell" into a spell-like ability. It doesn't ever explicitly say that it has to be a spell you know, or even an arcane spell. Exploitable? Discuss. ;) Um...Wow. Quickened, Twinned, Repeated, Heightened (to 10^9999 level) Miracle. And if "chosen spell" could include an Epic Spell...
Zemyla 12-01-05, 01:38 PM	If you're using fractional BAB, then you can take a level of Disciple of Mammon. From what I can tell, it gets 1 3/4 BAB at 1st level. If you have an ability that lets you reroll once a day, you can use it on the warp touch disease, greatly increasing the chances of getting something beneficial. Since there's a sword that inflicts warp touch, you can gain all sorts of nifty abilities. Also, a cancer mage might be able to ignore the bad effects of warp touch and get only the beneficial ones.
fnord 12-01-05, 01:53 PM	If you have an ability that lets you reroll once a day, you can use it on the warp touch disease, greatly increasing the chances of getting something beneficial. Since there's a sword that inflicts warp touch, you can gain all sorts of nifty abilities. Also, a cancer mage might be able to ignore the bad effects of warp touch and get only the beneficial ones. That sounds interesting. Where is warp touch from? The same rerolling trick could be used with Phase Slime, from the ELH. A variety of effects, some good and some bad, affect people around it when it's destroyed.
SigmaJargon 12-01-05, 02:01 PM	That sounds interesting. Where is warp touch from? The same rerolling trick could be used with Phase Slime, from the ELH. A variety of effects, some good and some bad, affect people around it when it's destroyed.Warp Touch is from the BoVD. Long ago, I toyed with the idea of using a cancer mage with the aforementioned sword who would continually hit himself (and then heal himself of the disease, I think I managed to find a spell that did the trick without hurting/killing the cancer mage in the process) until he got roll twice any given number of times. Problem with this is the time required to pull it off grew exponentially large if you wanted to get a whole bunch of ability from it at once. I think one of the cooler ones to acquire a few hundred times over was the medium viper that grows as an extra limb. :D
Prominence 12-01-05, 03:14 PM	I'm not sure if this works, but it seems like the right place. The Archmage's ability Spell-Like Ability An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot. Now, this is peculiar when you reach epic. As epic wizard spells are still arcane, epic wizard spells are still arcane spells. Therefore, you can sacrifice an epic spellslot to turn an epic spell into a spell-like ability. What is the advantage of this? Well, normally to cast an epic spell you need to make a spellcraft check. As it's now a spell-like ability, you no longer need to make that check since you can just activate it mentally (ie, it's not being 'cast'). You're also sacrificing an epic spellslot and, in return, getting 2/day use of this particular epic spell. The spell is now a spell-like ability, meaning it can be affected by spell-like ability feats, such as quicken, maximize, etc. Spell-like abilities can't be counterspelled. You can use it in full plate without penalty. So you bypass the 'spellcraft mitigating factor' and 'metamagic feats cannot be used on epic spells' rules. For a good example, you can snag Vengeful Gaze of God, modified to not have the backlash damage, put it into the spell-like ability, and be able to use it at level 22.
swanyusd 12-01-05, 03:55 PM	I'm not sure if this works, but it seems like the right place. So you bypass the 'spellcraft mitigating factor' and 'metamagic feats cannot be used on epic spells' rules. For a good example, you can snag Vengeful Gaze of God, modified to not have the backlash damage, put it into the spell-like ability, and be able to use it at level 22. Problem with this is you need to make the spellcraft check once to have learned it, as well as the spellcraft check to cast it. Soooo, you won't be able to have any old epic spell here. Perhaps you could have one, but the spellcraft dc would be pretty low anyway, cuz you can take 10 in casting epic spells, and would also cost a LOT in xp to make a spell-like ability because it explicitly states so in the archmage ability. Now... the archmage ability arcane reach can be used with any spells with range touch because it doesn't say only arcane spells. So, mystic theurge types with a level or however many of archmage can "harm" from ranges of 30-150 depending on how many levels he has taken (and of course kept taking arcane reach).
Prominence 12-01-05, 04:02 PM	Problem with this is you need to make the spellcraft check once to have learned it, Hmm, the SRD didn't say you had to make the check to actually craft it, just to cast it. I didn't do an outstandingly thorough check as well as the spellcraft check to cast it. You are no longer casting the spell, you are activating your spell-like ability and would also cost a LOT in xp to make a spell-like ability because it explicitly states so in the archmage ability. Actually, it would cost no XP, as the archmage ability only states the XP cost if a special material or XP cost is already present.
ComplexSimplicity 12-01-05, 05:32 PM	Renegade Mastermaker (Magic of Eberron) At level 7 you get the ability to "Embed Component", which allows you to attach or embed warforged components just like a warforged, in addition, every component you embed or attach grants you +1 Bonus Hitpoint. Rules for Warforged Components state that anything you can make as a magical item, can be made as a warforged component. Dull Grey Ioun Stone (XPH) has a base price of 25gp. This is a slotless, item that floats around your head. But make an Embedded Component version of it "The Everspinning Cog(Gear, Spindle, Whirlygig, Etc.)" and for your Renegade Mastermaker, you have the option of paying 25GP for +1 Hit Point, or crafting it for less, and paying 1XP per Hitpoint. Since it's slotless, and technically weightless, you can make and embed as many "Everspinning Cogs" as you want, gaining +1 HP for each of them. I haven't finished my "Tin Soldier of Fortune" build, but imagine a level 19/20 build with somewhere over +10,000 HP.
catharz 12-01-05, 05:38 PM	Who said a mount can only have one rider, though? How 'bout multiple very small "riders?" There are rules for this. IIRC they were in a Dragon magazine.