Bounty Hunter Rogue, TWF & SA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bounty Hunter Rogue, TWF & SA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pellanor
07-31-06, 05:11 PM Okay, as the title says, the theme for this build is a Bounty Hunter, that uses stealth to apprehend his target. This character will be filling the Trapfinder / Sneak Attacker roll in the party.

note: I've added a quick description of what stuff does, as there seemed to be some confusion

Stats: 17, 17, 13, 11, 10, 10
Books Allowed: All non-campaign specific WotC 3.5 books. Others will be evaluated on a case by case circumstance.
LA Buyoff is used

Current Build:
Shadow Creature (LoM, LA +2. Gives Full Concealment in Shadows and DR 5/magic at 1st level, for survivability) Whisper Gnome (RoS, an uber stealth race).
Rogue 16 / Swashbuckler 3 / Nightsong Enforcer 1 - We may switch out four levels of Rogue for two levels of Fighter and Two levels of Ranger. I'll work on this build a bit, then post it up in order to compare the two.

Str 8, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 13, Cha 9 - We may be switching the Wis and Con around, for the Con 15 and Wis 10.

Flaws:
Shaky (-2 penalty on ranged attacks)
Slow (effectively negating the Shadow's +50% speed).

Feats:
1 Combat Reflexes (required for Vexing Flanker)
1 Vexing Flanker (required for Adaptable Flanker)
1 TWF
2 Weapon Finesse (bonus from Swash 1)
3 Exotic Weapon Kusari Gama (DMG, picture a spiked chain that's a light weapon, so you can TWF with it, with no extra penalties, and has the 10' reach while still allowing you to treaten adjacent creatures.)
6 Adaptable Flanker (Pick a square you threaten. You also count as occupying that square for the purposes of flanking, allowing you to flank medium and smaller sized opponents by yourself, when combined with the Kusari Gama)
9 ITWF
12 Improved Initiative (Required for Nightsong Enforcer)
15 GTWF
18 Double Hit (Between Opportunist, Combat Reflexes, and the Kusari Gama for Reach, this will generate some good extra damage. May switch it out for Craven)

edit: The two builds I'm looking at, as they stand right now.
Lvl 1 | Rogue(1) | d6 | BAB +0 | 0/2/0 | Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker, TWF, Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6, Slow, Shaky
Lvl 2 | Swashbuckler(1) | d10 | BAB +1 | 2/2/0 | Weapon Finesse
Lvl 3 | Rogue(2) | d6 | BAB +2 | 2/3/0 | Exotic Weapon Kusari Gama, Evasion
Lvl 4 | Swashbuckler(2) | d10 | BAB +3 | 3/3/0 | Grace(+1)
Lvl 5 | Rogue(3) | d6 | BAB +4 | 4/3/1 | SA +2d6, Trap Sense +1
Lvl 6 | Swashbuckler(3) | d10 | BAB +5 | 4/4/2 | Adaptable Flanker, Insightful Strike
Lvl 7 | Rogue(4) | d6 | BAB +6 | 4/5/2 | Uncanny dodge
Lvl 8 | Rogue(5) | d6 | BAB +6 | 4/5/2 | SA +3d6
Lvl 9 | Rogue(6) | d6 | BAB +7 | 5/6/3 | Greater TWF, Trap Sense +2
Lvl 10 | Rogue(7) | d6 | BAB +8 | 5/6/3 | SA +4d6
Lvl 11 | Rogue(8) | d6 | BAB +9 | 5/7/3 | Improved uncanny dodge
Lvl 12 | Rogue(9) | d6 | BAB +9 | 6/7/4 | Improved Initiative, SA +5d6, Trap Sense +3
Lvl 13 | Nightsong Enforcer(1) | d8 | BAB +10 | 6/9/4 | SA +6d6
Lvl 14 | Rogue(10) | d6 | BAB +11 | 6/10/4 | Special ability
Lvl 15 | Rogue(11) | d6 | BAB +12 | 6/10/4 | Improved TWF, SA +7d6
Lvl 16 | Rogue(12) | d6 | BAB +13 | 7/11/5 | Trap Sense +4
Lvl 17 | Rogue(13) | d6 | BAB +13 | 7/11/5 | SA +8d6, Special ability
Lvl 18 | Rogue(14) | d6 | BAB +14 | 7/12/5 | Craven
Lvl 19 | Rogue(15) | d6 | BAB +15 | 8/12/6 | SA +9d6, Trap Sense +5
Lvl 20 | Rogue(16) | d6 | BAB +16 | 8/13/6 | Special abilityLvl 1 | Rogue(1) | d6 | BAB +0 | 0/2/0 | Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker, Craven, Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6, Slow, Shaky
Lvl 2 | Ranger(1) | d8 | BAB +1 | 2/4/0 | Tracking, Favored Enemy(+2), Wild Empathy
Lvl 3 | Ranger(2) | d8 | BAB +2 | 3/5/0 | Exotic Weapon Kusari Gama, TWF
Lvl 4 | Swashbuckler(1) | d10 | BAB +3 | 5/5/0 | Weapon Finesse
Lvl 5 | Fighter(1) | d10 | BAB +4 | 6/5/0 | Adaptable Flanker
Lvl 6 | Swashbuckler(2) | d10 | BAB +5 | 8/5/0 | Darkstalker, Grace(+1)
Lvl 7 | Fighter(2) | d10 | BAB +6 | 9/5/0 | Improved TWF
Lvl 8 | Swashbuckler(3) | d10 | BAB +7 | 9/6/1 | Insightful Strike
Lvl 9 | Rogue(2) | d6 | BAB +8 | 9/8/1 | Improved Initiative, Evasion
Lvl 10 | Nightsong Enforcer(1) | d8 | BAB +9 | 9/9/1 | SA +2d6, Teamwork(Hear/See Allies)
Lvl 11 | Rogue(3) | d6 | BAB +10 | 10/9/2 | SA +3d6, Trap Sense +1
Lvl 12 | Rogue(4) | d6 | BAB +11 | 10/10/2 | Uncanny dodge, Greater TWF
Lvl 13 | Rogue(5) | d6 | BAB +11 | 10/10/2 | SA +4d6
Lvl 14 | Rogue(6) | d6 | BAB +12 | 11/11/3 | Trap Sense +2
Lvl 15 | Rogue(7) | d6 | BAB +13 | 11/11/3 | Double Hit, SA +5d6
Lvl 16 | Rogue(8) | d6 | BAB +14 | 11/12/3 | Improved uncanny dodge
Lvl 17 | Rogue(9) | d6 | BAB +14 | 12/12/4 | SA +6d6, Trap Sense +3
Lvl 18 | Rogue(10) | d6 | BAB +15 | 12/13/4 | Special ability, Deadly Precision
Lvl 19 | Rogue(11) | d6 | BAB +16 | 12/13/4 | SA +7d6
Lvl 20 | Rogue(12) | d6 | BAB +17 | 13/14/5 | Trap Sense +4

The party consists of:
A Human Fighter Archer.
A Half-Elf Cleric / Seeker of the Misty Isle.
An Elven Sorceress specializing in Summoning, who's going to become a Nar Demonbinder.
A Human Evoker, going for Stormcaster.
A Mineral Warrior Goliath Barbarian.

Any suggestions?

PS. I'm the DM posting this for one of my players, so you can run any rules interpretations by me.
ZeroEffect
08-01-06, 05:07 AM If this is intended to be an effective combat build, I suggest Rogue 12/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Swashbuckler 3/Nightsong Enforcer 1.

If you'll allow Bayushi Deceiver from the Oriental Adventures book, consider taking 2 levels to get Int bonus to Initiative.

I'd take Improved Initiative sooner than later, since it'll help the character catch opponents flat-footed at lower levels.

Consider the Craven feat (Champions of Ruin) for additional sneak attack damage.

Lastly, I'd be tempted to take 5 levels of Master Thrower (Complete Warrior) and avoid melee combat entirely.

Each of these suggestions has merit on its own. Pick and choose the ones that suit you.
A_Wizard_for_Breakfast
08-01-06, 09:26 AM I've always liked the idea of a sneaky Justicar.

They get a psuedo sneak attack (can only deal non-lethal damage, 4d6 over 10 levels), the ability to deal non-lethal damage with any weapon and some mean grapple abilities. Not sure if they get the skills you need, though. And grappling really isn't a small character's cup of tea. Just some thoughts, though.
Reiner
08-01-06, 10:45 AM There is nothing wrong with an R16 build, especially if the last 4 levels gain you Bab+16. Fighter levels really put a dent into the skill points, but a 2 level ranger dip for twf and track is a good option. I also wouldn't take double hit unless you're also taking the opportunist special ability, since you won't be getting that many AoO while twf without reach. If so, move Improved Initiative down in level, and combat reflexes up, since its use wouldn't kick in till later. Definately try to fit in Craven, an essentially free 5d6 sneak attack damage isn't bad at all.

The real problem with the build is the stat points. You're gonna want 3 good stats, Int for skills, dex and con for hp. One 17 must absolutely go into con if you hope to do twf, and the other really needs to go into dex, which leaves you with a 13 int. This places a rather small emphasis on skills points, and doesn't make much use of the swashbuckler's Int to damage.

If you want a higher Int and still want to do twf, i'd take Zero's suggestion and go for Master Thrower, since that way you can pump int for some nice damage, dex for to hit, and stay the heck out of dodge with that terrible 13 you'd be forced to put into con.
Pellanor
08-01-06, 12:25 PM Thanks for the suggestions.

I've always liked the idea of a sneaky Justicar.

They get a psuedo sneak attack (can only deal non-lethal damage, 4d6 over 10 levels), the ability to deal non-lethal damage with any weapon and some mean grapple abilities. Not sure if they get the skills you need, though. And grappling really isn't a small character's cup of tea. Just some thoughts, though.I were looking at that one too, and while the theme really fits, the SA isn't as good as the Rogue, and as you said, the grappling just isn't that hot with a small sized character.

If this is intended to be an effective combat build, I suggest Rogue 12/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Swashbuckler 3/Nightsong Enforcer 1.Hmmm...
That would get us +6 HP, +5 Base fort, +1 Base Ref, -1 Base Will, +1 Base Attack, -16 Skill Points, TWF, Track, Wild Empathy, a Favoured Enemy, and two bonus feats. And we'd be loosing two rogue special abilities, as well as +1 trap sense and +2d6 sneak attack. I would say it's a fairly even trade off. Gives a few more feats and HP to help with melee combat, but suffers on skills. Would also reduce total SA to +7d6 at 20th level, instead of +9d6.

If you'll allow Bayushi Deceiver from the Oriental Adventures book, consider taking 2 levels to get Int bonus to Initiative.Only problem with this one is that it requires race to be Human, though I suppose I can find a way around it. Also the player is thinking of being lawful aligned, so that doesn't work either. I'll mention it to him though.

I'd take Improved Initiative sooner than later, since it'll help the character catch opponents flat-footed at lower levels.The reason that Improved Init isn't coming until 12th level, is so we can get Adaptable Flanker and the TWF feats ASAP.
The Kusari Gama is like a mini spiked chain, giving the character both reach, and the ability to attack adjacent foes too.
Adaptable flanker, combined with the Kusari Gama, allows you to flank by yourself, as seen in this thread. It has a prerequisit of Combat Reflexes and Vexing Flanker, and a BAB of +4, which is why we have those feats at such an early level.

Consider the Craven feat (Champions of Ruin) for additional sneak attack damage.Not sure if he'll like being afraid, but that would definatly boost his damage output.

Lastly, I'd be tempted to take 5 levels of Master Thrower (Complete Warrior) and avoid melee combat entirely.Player wants a melee sneak attacker. Otherwise that would be a good idea.

There is nothing wrong with an R16 build, especially if the last 4 levels gain you Bab+16. Fighter levels really put a dent into the skill points, but a 2 level ranger dip for twf and track is a good option. I also wouldn't take double hit unless you're also taking the opportunist special ability, since you won't be getting that many AoO while twf without reach. If so, move Improved Initiative down in level, and combat reflexes up, since its use wouldn't kick in till later. Definately try to fit in Craven, an essentially free 5d6 sneak attack damage isn't bad at all.Well, Swash 3 / NSE 1 gives the +4 BAB :). I beleive I explained above why we picked up CR earlier.

The real problem with the build is the stat points. You're gonna want 3 good stats, Int for skills, dex and con for hp. One 17 must absolutely go into con if you hope to do twf, and the other really needs to go into dex, which leaves you with a 13 int. This places a rather small emphasis on skills points, and doesn't make much use of the swashbuckler's Int to damage.The whisper Gnome has a +2 to con, so we could move the 13 (that's currently in wisdom) into Con, to get a 19 dex, 15 con, 17 int. We just had it in Wis instead of Con for the bonuses to Will saves, as well as Spot and Listen. We were counting on Shadow Meld (Full Concealment in anything except full daylight) and the DR of 5/magic to make up for the lower HP total. Do you think that's reasonable, or should we still look at putting the 17 into Con for the 19 total?

If you want a higher Int and still want to do twf, i'd take Zero's suggestion and go for Master Thrower, since that way you can pump int for some nice damage, dex for to hit, and stay the heck out of dodge with that terrible 13 you'd be forced to put into con.As I said above, he wants a melee character. Otherwise, good call.

Once again, thanks for all your help. Especially for pick out Crven. I'd completely forgotten about that feat. And of course, more feedback is always welcome.
Reiner
08-01-06, 01:00 PM Hmmm, sorry. I didn't actually know the Kusari Gama was usuable in such a way. A finessable one handed reach weapon that can threaten?

The 15 would certainly be doable in con with your concealment, I was just fearful of that 12con with d6 hitdice. Other than that your original build certainly looks fine. Just find some ways to help out with you going to be pitiful will save. I guess you can't have everything unless your a CoD.

And i was defending your Rog16/Swash3/NE1 with my R16 comment :)
Pellanor
08-01-06, 01:09 PM Hmmm, sorry. I didn't actually know the Kusari Gama was usuable in such a way. A finessable one handed reach weapon that can threaten?Actually it's a light weapon, not one handed, so that means you can use one in your off hand with only the base -2 penalty for TWF. Sure the damage is low (1d6 base, 20 x2 crit), but does that really matter?
Pellanor
08-01-06, 02:55 PM I've put together two builds. Any more suggestions?

Lvl 1 | Rogue(1) | d6 | BAB +0 | 0/2/0 | Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker, TWF, Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6, Slow, Shaky
Lvl 2 | Swashbuckler(1) | d10 | BAB +1 | 2/2/0 | Weapon Finesse
Lvl 3 | Rogue(2) | d6 | BAB +2 | 2/3/0 | Exotic Weapon Kusari Gama, Evasion
Lvl 4 | Swashbuckler(2) | d10 | BAB +3 | 3/3/0 | Grace(+1)
Lvl 5 | Rogue(3) | d6 | BAB +4 | 4/3/1 | SA +2d6, Trap Sense +1
Lvl 6 | Swashbuckler(3) | d10 | BAB +5 | 4/4/2 | Adaptable Flanker, Insightful Strike
Lvl 7 | Rogue(4) | d6 | BAB +6 | 4/5/2 | Uncanny dodge
Lvl 8 | Rogue(5) | d6 | BAB +6 | 4/5/2 | SA +3d6
Lvl 9 | Rogue(6) | d6 | BAB +7 | 5/6/3 | Greater TWF, Trap Sense +2
Lvl 10 | Rogue(7) | d6 | BAB +8 | 5/6/3 | SA +4d6
Lvl 11 | Rogue(8) | d6 | BAB +9 | 5/7/3 | Improved uncanny dodge
Lvl 12 | Rogue(9) | d6 | BAB +9 | 6/7/4 | Improved Initiative, SA +5d6, Trap Sense +3
Lvl 13 | Nightsong Enforcer(1) | d8 | BAB +10 | 6/9/4 | SA +6d6
Lvl 14 | Rogue(10) | d6 | BAB +11 | 6/10/4 | Special ability
Lvl 15 | Rogue(11) | d6 | BAB +12 | 6/10/4 | Improved TWF, SA +7d6
Lvl 16 | Rogue(12) | d6 | BAB +13 | 7/11/5 | Trap Sense +4
Lvl 17 | Rogue(13) | d6 | BAB +13 | 7/11/5 | SA +8d6, Special ability
Lvl 18 | Rogue(14) | d6 | BAB +14 | 7/12/5 | Craven
Lvl 19 | Rogue(15) | d6 | BAB +15 | 8/12/6 | SA +9d6, Trap Sense +5
Lvl 20 | Rogue(16) | d6 | BAB +16 | 8/13/6 | Special abilityLvl 1 | Rogue(1) | d6 | BAB +0 | 0/2/0 | Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker, Craven, Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6, Slow, Shaky
Lvl 2 | Ranger(1) | d8 | BAB +1 | 2/4/0 | Tracking, Favored Enemy(+2), Wild Empathy
Lvl 3 | Ranger(2) | d8 | BAB +2 | 3/5/0 | Exotic Weapon Kusari Gama, TWF
Lvl 4 | Swashbuckler(1) | d10 | BAB +3 | 5/5/0 | Weapon Finesse
Lvl 5 | Fighter(1) | d10 | BAB +4 | 6/5/0 | Adaptable Flanker
Lvl 6 | Swashbuckler(2) | d10 | BAB +5 | 8/5/0 | Darkstalker, Grace(+1)
Lvl 7 | Fighter(2) | d10 | BAB +6 | 9/5/0 | Improved TWF
Lvl 8 | Swashbuckler(3) | d10 | BAB +7 | 9/6/1 | Insightful Strike
Lvl 9 | Rogue(2) | d6 | BAB +8 | 9/8/1 | Improved Initiative, Evasion
Lvl 10 | Nightsong Enforcer(1) | d8 | BAB +9 | 9/9/1 | SA +2d6, Teamwork(Hear/See Allies)
Lvl 11 | Rogue(3) | d6 | BAB +10 | 10/9/2 | SA +3d6, Trap Sense +1
Lvl 12 | Rogue(4) | d6 | BAB +11 | 10/10/2 | Uncanny dodge, Greater TWF
Lvl 13 | Rogue(5) | d6 | BAB +11 | 10/10/2 | SA +4d6
Lvl 14 | Rogue(6) | d6 | BAB +12 | 11/11/3 | Trap Sense +2
Lvl 15 | Rogue(7) | d6 | BAB +13 | 11/11/3 | Double Hit, SA +5d6
Lvl 16 | Rogue(8) | d6 | BAB +14 | 11/12/3 | Improved uncanny dodge
Lvl 17 | Rogue(9) | d6 | BAB +14 | 12/12/4 | SA +6d6, Trap Sense +3
Lvl 18 | Rogue(10) | d6 | BAB +15 | 12/13/4 | Special ability, Deadly Precision
Lvl 19 | Rogue(11) | d6 | BAB +16 | 12/13/4 | SA +7d6
Lvl 20 | Rogue(12) | d6 | BAB +17 | 13/14/5 | Trap Sense +4
ZeroEffect
08-01-06, 05:30 PM Depending on the nature of the campaign, you might like to take a few levels of Skullclan Hunter in order to get sneak attack damage to undead.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pellanor 07-31-06, 05:11 PM	Okay, as the title says, the theme for this build is a Bounty Hunter, that uses stealth to apprehend his target. This character will be filling the Trapfinder / Sneak Attacker roll in the party. note: I've added a quick description of what stuff does, as there seemed to be some confusion Stats: 17, 17, 13, 11, 10, 10 Books Allowed: All non-campaign specific WotC 3.5 books. Others will be evaluated on a case by case circumstance. LA Buyoff is used Current Build: Shadow Creature (LoM, LA +2. Gives Full Concealment in Shadows and DR 5/magic at 1st level, for survivability) Whisper Gnome (RoS, an uber stealth race). Rogue 16 / Swashbuckler 3 / Nightsong Enforcer 1 - We may switch out four levels of Rogue for two levels of Fighter and Two levels of Ranger. I'll work on this build a bit, then post it up in order to compare the two. Str 8, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 13, Cha 9 - We may be switching the Wis and Con around, for the Con 15 and Wis 10. Flaws: Shaky (-2 penalty on ranged attacks) Slow (effectively negating the Shadow's +50% speed). Feats: 1 Combat Reflexes (required for Vexing Flanker) 1 Vexing Flanker (required for Adaptable Flanker) 1 TWF 2 Weapon Finesse (bonus from Swash 1) 3 Exotic Weapon Kusari Gama (DMG, picture a spiked chain that's a light weapon, so you can TWF with it, with no extra penalties, and has the 10' reach while still allowing you to treaten adjacent creatures.) 6 Adaptable Flanker (Pick a square you threaten. You also count as occupying that square for the purposes of flanking, allowing you to flank medium and smaller sized opponents by yourself, when combined with the Kusari Gama) 9 ITWF 12 Improved Initiative (Required for Nightsong Enforcer) 15 GTWF 18 Double Hit (Between Opportunist, Combat Reflexes, and the Kusari Gama for Reach, this will generate some good extra damage. May switch it out for Craven) edit: The two builds I'm looking at, as they stand right now. Lvl 1 \| Rogue(1) \| d6 \| BAB +0 \| 0/2/0 \| Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker, TWF, Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6, Slow, Shaky Lvl 2 \| Swashbuckler(1) \| d10 \| BAB +1 \| 2/2/0 \| Weapon Finesse Lvl 3 \| Rogue(2) \| d6 \| BAB +2 \| 2/3/0 \| Exotic Weapon Kusari Gama, Evasion Lvl 4 \| Swashbuckler(2) \| d10 \| BAB +3 \| 3/3/0 \| Grace(+1) Lvl 5 \| Rogue(3) \| d6 \| BAB +4 \| 4/3/1 \| SA +2d6, Trap Sense +1 Lvl 6 \| Swashbuckler(3) \| d10 \| BAB +5 \| 4/4/2 \| Adaptable Flanker, Insightful Strike Lvl 7 \| Rogue(4) \| d6 \| BAB +6 \| 4/5/2 \| Uncanny dodge Lvl 8 \| Rogue(5) \| d6 \| BAB +6 \| 4/5/2 \| SA +3d6 Lvl 9 \| Rogue(6) \| d6 \| BAB +7 \| 5/6/3 \| Greater TWF, Trap Sense +2 Lvl 10 \| Rogue(7) \| d6 \| BAB +8 \| 5/6/3 \| SA +4d6 Lvl 11 \| Rogue(8) \| d6 \| BAB +9 \| 5/7/3 \| Improved uncanny dodge Lvl 12 \| Rogue(9) \| d6 \| BAB +9 \| 6/7/4 \| Improved Initiative, SA +5d6, Trap Sense +3 Lvl 13 \| Nightsong Enforcer(1) \| d8 \| BAB +10 \| 6/9/4 \| SA +6d6 Lvl 14 \| Rogue(10) \| d6 \| BAB +11 \| 6/10/4 \| Special ability Lvl 15 \| Rogue(11) \| d6 \| BAB +12 \| 6/10/4 \| Improved TWF, SA +7d6 Lvl 16 \| Rogue(12) \| d6 \| BAB +13 \| 7/11/5 \| Trap Sense +4 Lvl 17 \| Rogue(13) \| d6 \| BAB +13 \| 7/11/5 \| SA +8d6, Special ability Lvl 18 \| Rogue(14) \| d6 \| BAB +14 \| 7/12/5 \| Craven Lvl 19 \| Rogue(15) \| d6 \| BAB +15 \| 8/12/6 \| SA +9d6, Trap Sense +5 Lvl 20 \| Rogue(16) \| d6 \| BAB +16 \| 8/13/6 \| Special abilityLvl 1 \| Rogue(1) \| d6 \| BAB +0 \| 0/2/0 \| Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker, Craven, Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6, Slow, Shaky Lvl 2 \| Ranger(1) \| d8 \| BAB +1 \| 2/4/0 \| Tracking, Favored Enemy(+2), Wild Empathy Lvl 3 \| Ranger(2) \| d8 \| BAB +2 \| 3/5/0 \| Exotic Weapon Kusari Gama, TWF Lvl 4 \| Swashbuckler(1) \| d10 \| BAB +3 \| 5/5/0 \| Weapon Finesse Lvl 5 \| Fighter(1) \| d10 \| BAB +4 \| 6/5/0 \| Adaptable Flanker Lvl 6 \| Swashbuckler(2) \| d10 \| BAB +5 \| 8/5/0 \| Darkstalker, Grace(+1) Lvl 7 \| Fighter(2) \| d10 \| BAB +6 \| 9/5/0 \| Improved TWF Lvl 8 \| Swashbuckler(3) \| d10 \| BAB +7 \| 9/6/1 \| Insightful Strike Lvl 9 \| Rogue(2) \| d6 \| BAB +8 \| 9/8/1 \| Improved Initiative, Evasion Lvl 10 \| Nightsong Enforcer(1) \| d8 \| BAB +9 \| 9/9/1 \| SA +2d6, Teamwork(Hear/See Allies) Lvl 11 \| Rogue(3) \| d6 \| BAB +10 \| 10/9/2 \| SA +3d6, Trap Sense +1 Lvl 12 \| Rogue(4) \| d6 \| BAB +11 \| 10/10/2 \| Uncanny dodge, Greater TWF Lvl 13 \| Rogue(5) \| d6 \| BAB +11 \| 10/10/2 \| SA +4d6 Lvl 14 \| Rogue(6) \| d6 \| BAB +12 \| 11/11/3 \| Trap Sense +2 Lvl 15 \| Rogue(7) \| d6 \| BAB +13 \| 11/11/3 \| Double Hit, SA +5d6 Lvl 16 \| Rogue(8) \| d6 \| BAB +14 \| 11/12/3 \| Improved uncanny dodge Lvl 17 \| Rogue(9) \| d6 \| BAB +14 \| 12/12/4 \| SA +6d6, Trap Sense +3 Lvl 18 \| Rogue(10) \| d6 \| BAB +15 \| 12/13/4 \| Special ability, Deadly Precision Lvl 19 \| Rogue(11) \| d6 \| BAB +16 \| 12/13/4 \| SA +7d6 Lvl 20 \| Rogue(12) \| d6 \| BAB +17 \| 13/14/5 \| Trap Sense +4 The party consists of: A Human Fighter Archer. A Half-Elf Cleric / Seeker of the Misty Isle. An Elven Sorceress specializing in Summoning, who's going to become a Nar Demonbinder. A Human Evoker, going for Stormcaster. A Mineral Warrior Goliath Barbarian. Any suggestions? PS. I'm the DM posting this for one of my players, so you can run any rules interpretations by me.
ZeroEffect 08-01-06, 05:07 AM	If this is intended to be an effective combat build, I suggest Rogue 12/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Swashbuckler 3/Nightsong Enforcer 1. If you'll allow Bayushi Deceiver from the Oriental Adventures book, consider taking 2 levels to get Int bonus to Initiative. I'd take Improved Initiative sooner than later, since it'll help the character catch opponents flat-footed at lower levels. Consider the Craven feat (Champions of Ruin) for additional sneak attack damage. Lastly, I'd be tempted to take 5 levels of Master Thrower (Complete Warrior) and avoid melee combat entirely. Each of these suggestions has merit on its own. Pick and choose the ones that suit you.
A_Wizard_for_Breakfast 08-01-06, 09:26 AM	I've always liked the idea of a sneaky Justicar. They get a psuedo sneak attack (can only deal non-lethal damage, 4d6 over 10 levels), the ability to deal non-lethal damage with any weapon and some mean grapple abilities. Not sure if they get the skills you need, though. And grappling really isn't a small character's cup of tea. Just some thoughts, though.
Reiner 08-01-06, 10:45 AM	There is nothing wrong with an R16 build, especially if the last 4 levels gain you Bab+16. Fighter levels really put a dent into the skill points, but a 2 level ranger dip for twf and track is a good option. I also wouldn't take double hit unless you're also taking the opportunist special ability, since you won't be getting that many AoO while twf without reach. If so, move Improved Initiative down in level, and combat reflexes up, since its use wouldn't kick in till later. Definately try to fit in Craven, an essentially free 5d6 sneak attack damage isn't bad at all. The real problem with the build is the stat points. You're gonna want 3 good stats, Int for skills, dex and con for hp. One 17 must absolutely go into con if you hope to do twf, and the other really needs to go into dex, which leaves you with a 13 int. This places a rather small emphasis on skills points, and doesn't make much use of the swashbuckler's Int to damage. If you want a higher Int and still want to do twf, i'd take Zero's suggestion and go for Master Thrower, since that way you can pump int for some nice damage, dex for to hit, and stay the heck out of dodge with that terrible 13 you'd be forced to put into con.
Pellanor 08-01-06, 12:25 PM	Thanks for the suggestions. I've always liked the idea of a sneaky Justicar. They get a psuedo sneak attack (can only deal non-lethal damage, 4d6 over 10 levels), the ability to deal non-lethal damage with any weapon and some mean grapple abilities. Not sure if they get the skills you need, though. And grappling really isn't a small character's cup of tea. Just some thoughts, though.I were looking at that one too, and while the theme really fits, the SA isn't as good as the Rogue, and as you said, the grappling just isn't that hot with a small sized character. If this is intended to be an effective combat build, I suggest Rogue 12/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Swashbuckler 3/Nightsong Enforcer 1.Hmmm... That would get us +6 HP, +5 Base fort, +1 Base Ref, -1 Base Will, +1 Base Attack, -16 Skill Points, TWF, Track, Wild Empathy, a Favoured Enemy, and two bonus feats. And we'd be loosing two rogue special abilities, as well as +1 trap sense and +2d6 sneak attack. I would say it's a fairly even trade off. Gives a few more feats and HP to help with melee combat, but suffers on skills. Would also reduce total SA to +7d6 at 20th level, instead of +9d6. If you'll allow Bayushi Deceiver from the Oriental Adventures book, consider taking 2 levels to get Int bonus to Initiative.Only problem with this one is that it requires race to be Human, though I suppose I can find a way around it. Also the player is thinking of being lawful aligned, so that doesn't work either. I'll mention it to him though. I'd take Improved Initiative sooner than later, since it'll help the character catch opponents flat-footed at lower levels.The reason that Improved Init isn't coming until 12th level, is so we can get Adaptable Flanker and the TWF feats ASAP. The Kusari Gama is like a mini spiked chain, giving the character both reach, and the ability to attack adjacent foes too. Adaptable flanker, combined with the Kusari Gama, allows you to flank by yourself, as seen in this thread. It has a prerequisit of Combat Reflexes and Vexing Flanker, and a BAB of +4, which is why we have those feats at such an early level. Consider the Craven feat (Champions of Ruin) for additional sneak attack damage.Not sure if he'll like being afraid, but that would definatly boost his damage output. Lastly, I'd be tempted to take 5 levels of Master Thrower (Complete Warrior) and avoid melee combat entirely.Player wants a melee sneak attacker. Otherwise that would be a good idea. There is nothing wrong with an R16 build, especially if the last 4 levels gain you Bab+16. Fighter levels really put a dent into the skill points, but a 2 level ranger dip for twf and track is a good option. I also wouldn't take double hit unless you're also taking the opportunist special ability, since you won't be getting that many AoO while twf without reach. If so, move Improved Initiative down in level, and combat reflexes up, since its use wouldn't kick in till later. Definately try to fit in Craven, an essentially free 5d6 sneak attack damage isn't bad at all.Well, Swash 3 / NSE 1 gives the +4 BAB :). I beleive I explained above why we picked up CR earlier. The real problem with the build is the stat points. You're gonna want 3 good stats, Int for skills, dex and con for hp. One 17 must absolutely go into con if you hope to do twf, and the other really needs to go into dex, which leaves you with a 13 int. This places a rather small emphasis on skills points, and doesn't make much use of the swashbuckler's Int to damage.The whisper Gnome has a +2 to con, so we could move the 13 (that's currently in wisdom) into Con, to get a 19 dex, 15 con, 17 int. We just had it in Wis instead of Con for the bonuses to Will saves, as well as Spot and Listen. We were counting on Shadow Meld (Full Concealment in anything except full daylight) and the DR of 5/magic to make up for the lower HP total. Do you think that's reasonable, or should we still look at putting the 17 into Con for the 19 total? If you want a higher Int and still want to do twf, i'd take Zero's suggestion and go for Master Thrower, since that way you can pump int for some nice damage, dex for to hit, and stay the heck out of dodge with that terrible 13 you'd be forced to put into con.As I said above, he wants a melee character. Otherwise, good call. Once again, thanks for all your help. Especially for pick out Crven. I'd completely forgotten about that feat. And of course, more feedback is always welcome.
Reiner 08-01-06, 01:00 PM	Hmmm, sorry. I didn't actually know the Kusari Gama was usuable in such a way. A finessable one handed reach weapon that can threaten? The 15 would certainly be doable in con with your concealment, I was just fearful of that 12con with d6 hitdice. Other than that your original build certainly looks fine. Just find some ways to help out with you going to be pitiful will save. I guess you can't have everything unless your a CoD. And i was defending your Rog16/Swash3/NE1 with my R16 comment :)
Pellanor 08-01-06, 01:09 PM	Hmmm, sorry. I didn't actually know the Kusari Gama was usuable in such a way. A finessable one handed reach weapon that can threaten?Actually it's a light weapon, not one handed, so that means you can use one in your off hand with only the base -2 penalty for TWF. Sure the damage is low (1d6 base, 20 x2 crit), but does that really matter?
Pellanor 08-01-06, 02:55 PM	I've put together two builds. Any more suggestions? Lvl 1 \| Rogue(1) \| d6 \| BAB +0 \| 0/2/0 \| Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker, TWF, Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6, Slow, Shaky Lvl 2 \| Swashbuckler(1) \| d10 \| BAB +1 \| 2/2/0 \| Weapon Finesse Lvl 3 \| Rogue(2) \| d6 \| BAB +2 \| 2/3/0 \| Exotic Weapon Kusari Gama, Evasion Lvl 4 \| Swashbuckler(2) \| d10 \| BAB +3 \| 3/3/0 \| Grace(+1) Lvl 5 \| Rogue(3) \| d6 \| BAB +4 \| 4/3/1 \| SA +2d6, Trap Sense +1 Lvl 6 \| Swashbuckler(3) \| d10 \| BAB +5 \| 4/4/2 \| Adaptable Flanker, Insightful Strike Lvl 7 \| Rogue(4) \| d6 \| BAB +6 \| 4/5/2 \| Uncanny dodge Lvl 8 \| Rogue(5) \| d6 \| BAB +6 \| 4/5/2 \| SA +3d6 Lvl 9 \| Rogue(6) \| d6 \| BAB +7 \| 5/6/3 \| Greater TWF, Trap Sense +2 Lvl 10 \| Rogue(7) \| d6 \| BAB +8 \| 5/6/3 \| SA +4d6 Lvl 11 \| Rogue(8) \| d6 \| BAB +9 \| 5/7/3 \| Improved uncanny dodge Lvl 12 \| Rogue(9) \| d6 \| BAB +9 \| 6/7/4 \| Improved Initiative, SA +5d6, Trap Sense +3 Lvl 13 \| Nightsong Enforcer(1) \| d8 \| BAB +10 \| 6/9/4 \| SA +6d6 Lvl 14 \| Rogue(10) \| d6 \| BAB +11 \| 6/10/4 \| Special ability Lvl 15 \| Rogue(11) \| d6 \| BAB +12 \| 6/10/4 \| Improved TWF, SA +7d6 Lvl 16 \| Rogue(12) \| d6 \| BAB +13 \| 7/11/5 \| Trap Sense +4 Lvl 17 \| Rogue(13) \| d6 \| BAB +13 \| 7/11/5 \| SA +8d6, Special ability Lvl 18 \| Rogue(14) \| d6 \| BAB +14 \| 7/12/5 \| Craven Lvl 19 \| Rogue(15) \| d6 \| BAB +15 \| 8/12/6 \| SA +9d6, Trap Sense +5 Lvl 20 \| Rogue(16) \| d6 \| BAB +16 \| 8/13/6 \| Special abilityLvl 1 \| Rogue(1) \| d6 \| BAB +0 \| 0/2/0 \| Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker, Craven, Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6, Slow, Shaky Lvl 2 \| Ranger(1) \| d8 \| BAB +1 \| 2/4/0 \| Tracking, Favored Enemy(+2), Wild Empathy Lvl 3 \| Ranger(2) \| d8 \| BAB +2 \| 3/5/0 \| Exotic Weapon Kusari Gama, TWF Lvl 4 \| Swashbuckler(1) \| d10 \| BAB +3 \| 5/5/0 \| Weapon Finesse Lvl 5 \| Fighter(1) \| d10 \| BAB +4 \| 6/5/0 \| Adaptable Flanker Lvl 6 \| Swashbuckler(2) \| d10 \| BAB +5 \| 8/5/0 \| Darkstalker, Grace(+1) Lvl 7 \| Fighter(2) \| d10 \| BAB +6 \| 9/5/0 \| Improved TWF Lvl 8 \| Swashbuckler(3) \| d10 \| BAB +7 \| 9/6/1 \| Insightful Strike Lvl 9 \| Rogue(2) \| d6 \| BAB +8 \| 9/8/1 \| Improved Initiative, Evasion Lvl 10 \| Nightsong Enforcer(1) \| d8 \| BAB +9 \| 9/9/1 \| SA +2d6, Teamwork(Hear/See Allies) Lvl 11 \| Rogue(3) \| d6 \| BAB +10 \| 10/9/2 \| SA +3d6, Trap Sense +1 Lvl 12 \| Rogue(4) \| d6 \| BAB +11 \| 10/10/2 \| Uncanny dodge, Greater TWF Lvl 13 \| Rogue(5) \| d6 \| BAB +11 \| 10/10/2 \| SA +4d6 Lvl 14 \| Rogue(6) \| d6 \| BAB +12 \| 11/11/3 \| Trap Sense +2 Lvl 15 \| Rogue(7) \| d6 \| BAB +13 \| 11/11/3 \| Double Hit, SA +5d6 Lvl 16 \| Rogue(8) \| d6 \| BAB +14 \| 11/12/3 \| Improved uncanny dodge Lvl 17 \| Rogue(9) \| d6 \| BAB +14 \| 12/12/4 \| SA +6d6, Trap Sense +3 Lvl 18 \| Rogue(10) \| d6 \| BAB +15 \| 12/13/4 \| Special ability, Deadly Precision Lvl 19 \| Rogue(11) \| d6 \| BAB +16 \| 12/13/4 \| SA +7d6 Lvl 20 \| Rogue(12) \| d6 \| BAB +17 \| 13/14/5 \| Trap Sense +4
ZeroEffect 08-01-06, 05:30 PM	Depending on the nature of the campaign, you might like to take a few levels of Skullclan Hunter in order to get sneak attack damage to undead.