Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caelic 01-30-04, 05:47 PM	Okay, folks--this is a slightly unusual request. I'm going to be starting a new campaign fairly soon, and I habitually redline a new setting before I let the players loose in it--find out what the outer limits of what can be accomplished are. I'm hoping that the good folks on this board would be willing to take a look at the rules and let me know what approach they'd take to min/maxing a character for it. Here are the basics, in a nutshell: the World of the Shattered Moon is, in essence, post holocaust D&D. It was once a very high-magic campaign world, moreso even than the Realms. Most civilizations were highly dependent on magic--and that's why, when the magic suddenly failed, all at once, on the night the moon split in two, mass chaos ensued. Many died as creatures highly dependent on magic (like dragons) went mad and ravaged the countryside; others died from diseases that few remembered how to treat by mundane means. Civilizations crumbled, or went to war as their magical means of increasing food supplies and of preservation and transportation failed en masse. Two hundred and fifty years later, the sentient races are climbing out of the abyss and beginning to rebuild. The magical field of the world has normalized, but at a much, much lower level. Few command magic, and the art of actually crafting magical items is long lost. Spells are carefully hoarded secrets; actual magic items are fiercely coveted. In a few isolated locations, though, the old magic has come back in full force. These "hot spots" are fought over fiercely, because only there are the miracles of old truly possible. The basic rules for the campaign: 1. Standard PHB races, 36-point build. I'll consider races from other sources, but the players had better wow me with their explanation. No race with supernatural abilities will be considered, for thematic reasons. 2. All 3.5 core books permitted. 3.0 material is permitted with permission. The Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness are not permitted. 3. (The biggie) There are no primary casters. Period. No Clerics, no Wizards, no Sorcerors, no Druids. Spellcasters in this world are uniformly "secondary casters"--bards, rangers, hexblades, and Paladins. (Paladins of every alignment exist, however, with slight modifications--the overall character type is referred to as a "Zealot.") So: in a world with no primary casters, where magic items are a rarity, what roads to power would the dedicated min/maxer take?
Eldrad 01-30-04, 05:54 PM	Well, a con boosting race, barb 2 then fighter4 w/ all bonus feats to get the prereqs for FB all other feats extra or exteneded rage, anfd then the full FB progression off the top of my head. Another possibilty is Kensai to get around that no magic thing...
Caelic 01-30-04, 05:58 PM	Kensai will be available, but the experience costs are going to be significantly increased (as there's less magic to bind into their weapon, a lot more of their own inner essence is required, y'see.) FB is...welllll, I SUPPOSE a player could take it, but keep in mind that the odds of reliably controlling the Berserker after his frenzy has run its useful course are reduced. I'm sure I'll still see 'em, though; we'll see.
Santherus 01-30-04, 06:02 PM	Just about anything that simulates casting/crafting as a class faeture(e.g. bear warrior/warshaper gaining polymorph-type benefits), Kensai, Tattooed Monk (Crab tattoo being more powerful when magic is rarer), Runescarred Beserker. I believe that OA has something similar to the BoED Ancestral relic - might be something to watch for.
Snow Savant 01-30-04, 06:05 PM	Caelic, Please clarify your "... All 3.5 core books permitted." statement. Especially regarding your interest in the Kensai & FB PrC's. I assume that means the trad core of PHB/DMG/MM ... although some folks lately consider books such as CW to be "core". And in mentioning 3.0, I assume you mean splatbooks. Just looking to have as many sources as possible to choose from. :) Best regards, Snow :cloud9:
LordShade 01-30-04, 06:05 PM	Psionicist. ;) I personally love low-magic campaigns. You really have to think a lot more and be creative with tactics. My group used to have a lot of fun with low-magic campaigns in 2nd edition - I imagine they would be even more fun in 3e because of the ability to customize. As a player, I'd look at classes that offer progression as a secondary caster - templar, holy lib, etc. After that I'd look to see if I could stack something like NarD on there. Since most characters will be tough, minmaxed fighters, I'd try to take a different tack - easier to excel in a different field. Alternately, I'd just be an Iaijutsu Master. I always play a swordmaster type (in second edition it was a kensai) in those low magic campaigns and it's always fun.
Morka 01-30-04, 06:09 PM	In a magic-less world, I guess most commoners or orcs coming to fight will rather have a metallic armor. So grappling will be the weakness of the general NPC. I think a good min/maxer will build a grappling/tripping monk. Do you allow poisons? It's not truely magical. I think it will be the best way to have someone need a Fortitude save. Do you allow other mundane inventions, like a "chemical" alchemist fire, or other grenade-like mechanical weapons? That could be good to need good reflex saves. If there is no hazard needing a good reflex save, the rogues will lose one of their best ability: evasion. Is there any way to mimic something needing a will save? I don't see for now...
Caelic 01-30-04, 06:11 PM	CW's in...given the relative dominance of warriors, it almost has to be. Future 3.5 releases will be judged on a case-by-case basis. There's probably going to be quite a bit in the new mage book, for instance, that won't fly. Nar Demonbinder, to paraphrase Monty Python, is right out. :) As for the splatbooks...as I said, they'll have to convince me. I'm not issuing a blanket "No," but I'm also not issuing a blanket "Yes."
Caelic 01-30-04, 06:13 PM	Poison's not only allowed, it's downright formidable. Without magic to kill big nasties, people have refined other crafts. A modified version of the Gnome Artificer will also be available--slightly less goofy, but able to produce non-magical equivalents of certain magical effects.
Hanniball 01-30-04, 06:23 PM	just a hint of advice: with magical items so rare this make creatures with damage reduction extrememly powerful. unless you can "give" the PCs ways to deal with it, i'm afraid they're going to be hurting until that "Zealot" can make everyone's weapon lawful/magical...
Penguin Master 01-30-04, 06:52 PM	Even when you have a normal regualtion of magic there is still the problem of healing. Particulary with low level characters where they depend on that extra cure light wounds to keep them alive for that extra two rounds. In this campaign with the absence of the primary casting classes, healing will be delayed until second level when "zealot's" gain the meager lay on hands, and until level 5 when rangers gain cure light wounds. this is more favorable to ranged combatants. I would say a Rog1/Rgr5 emphasizing in archery would do well.
SoulLord 01-30-04, 06:57 PM	How about the dragon disciple prestige class? after the magic returns it would be interesting to see someone discover its draconic heritage bard 1 /barbarian 1 / bard 3/dragon disciple 10 / barbarian 5 SoulLord
Borin 01-30-04, 07:20 PM	Rogues! I think sneak attack will be pretty powerful in a very-low-magic setting. It's only dependant on levels. Rogues also get good skills for sneaking around. Low-magic also makes the mobility skills (climb, jump, swim) more important, as you aren't likely to have levitate/fly/teleport/Gate. This makes walls, doors, gaps and rivers harder to get through/across. This sort of campaign certainly doesn't favour the heavy-armored fighter. Ah, bards would pretty much be the best magic users, and some of the few with full caster levels (for SR). Charms&Dominates are still dangerous, but not as dangerous as a wizard focused on Enchantment.
Matt Neuman 01-30-04, 07:46 PM	In this setting, the Bard will be the pre-eminent spellcaster, so I'd watch out for: bard counterspellers. Since they will consistantly have access to higher level spells than most other casters, the bard built with improved counterspell, reactive counterspell, etc could be a nasty surprise. I'll give this some more thought though.
Stoned Golem 01-30-04, 08:24 PM	A Hexblade/Rage Mage could be good. Using your character level as your caster level while in spell rage becomes significantly more useful in a low-magic setting. Not only will it help against SR, but it means they'll be able to use spells like GMW and Mirror Image to their full effect. Angry Spell and Spell Fury are siginficantly more useful as well, even if they're only applied to low-level spells, and Warrior Cry would be amazing. In this world, Bards suddenly become the big fish in the small pond with regards to magical ability, so anything that increases their magical versatility will be good. Bard/Virtuosos or Bard/Mindbenders will be subtle manipulators, Bard/Divine Oracles will become the new scryers, etc. For anyone missing the Druids, a Ranger base with Animal Lord and/or Shifter on top could help. I assume magical weapons will be few, far between, and expensive, so a lot of archers will probably become Arcane Archers, and Arcane Duelists will probably show up too if you allow them (after fixing them with regards to Power Attack of course). Without a medpack cleric or buff wizard, Fighters and Barbarians will probably be well off to dip into Divine Champion, Horizon Walker, Runescarred Berserker, or Holy Liberator for magical supplements. Likewise since nobody will be able to get by on spells alone, builds like Snow's TWF battle bard could be good even for primary casters.
PhaedrusXY 01-30-04, 11:27 PM	Since you allow "Zealots", what about the Holy Liberator? It is basically a Chaotic Good palladin variant. If you allow that, I'd play Funny Slaughter's trademark Holy Liberator/Frenzied Berzerker. With the boost to Will Saves from HL and adding Cha to saves, you could get to the point where you can make the save to keep from killing your friends fairly reliably. And the damage output from this combo is nasty. Another good option would be to go for a tripping/grappling build, since presumably most of the enemies will be remotely human shaped. If you don't allow Holy Liberator, you could do basically the same thing with a couple levels of Palladin and a couple levels of Bard to boost your Will saves, then barbarian and Frenzied Berzerker.
Penguin Master 01-31-04, 02:03 AM	But wouldn't you loose your palidan abilities for meeting the chaotic alignment requirement for bard and barbarian?
PhaedrusXY 01-31-04, 02:04 AM	Originally posted by Penguin Master But wouldn't you loose your palidan abilities for meeting the chaotic alignment requirement for bard and barbarian? Umm... he said he allows Palladins of all alignments.
Penguin Master 01-31-04, 02:11 AM	I would have missed that post then, or i wasn't paying attention at the time. Then if that's the case, there would be no penalty for taking palidan and staying true to your alignment, because you could always just switch deities if your alignment shifted. That puts a great deal of power in this class and no pc in their sound mind wouldn't take at least sufficeint levels to gain their cha scores to their saves.
PhaedrusXY 01-31-04, 05:10 AM	I don't know about that. I'm sure there would still be some roleplaying requirements. You'd still be a Holy Warrior and probably champion of some god or cause, but I see what you're saying. But I still don't think that every character will take levels of it. Alot of character concepts use Charisma as a dump stat. I don't think allowing Palladins of other alignments will change that.
Funny Slaughter 01-31-04, 06:57 AM	all power to the bards sounds interesting... :rolleyes: caelic, do you plan to limit their spellcasting, too? bards are not superior in offensive magic, but in several builds it was proven that bards can be nasty buffer with access to domination and the like. given the thing that one of the main bardic disadvantages was crumbled and bards, when properly played, can be as powerful as most other classes or even outshine them (in a normal game) i would go with a bard, focussing on buffing and enchantments. disguised most people wont even recognize the seduction i think, there wont be many people with even a single rank in spellcraft out there. everything with secondary spellcasting would also get a big power-up. a bard/paladin-variant/bladesinger could be a deadly thing. nentyar hunter from UE, if allowed, could be a source of great power. eventually also on a bard-base and combined with mystic theurge and geomancer. i would also opt to play a shifter/warshaper etc. gs Funny
Caelic 01-31-04, 09:48 AM	Responses: 1. The fact that Paladins (Zealots) of all alignments exist doesn't mean that alignment ceases to be an issue for them. A Zealot of any given alignment and faith is still expected to adhere absolutely scrupulously to the teachings of that alignment and faith, and will suffer from falling away from the "one true path." A Chaotic Good Paladin who shifts to Lawful Neutral will suffer the same penalties as a Lawful Good Paladin who shifts to Chaotic Neutral. The codes of conduct for Zealots of the various deities are drawn up and defined; it'll by no means be a free ride to easy save bonuses. 2. The following prestige classes from the splatbooks most definitely exist, as they have specific, defined roles in the world already: Holy Liberator, Templar, Devoted Defender, Tribal Protector, Mindbender, Animal Lord, Forsaker, Foekiller, Hexer. The Witch Hunter from Oriental Adventures is also allowed. Others, as I said, will require a fair amount of discussion and justification. 3. The classes that remain will not be restricted in their spellcasting. Yes, Bards will likely be the spellcasters par excellence in this mileu; that was intentional. It's not my intention to create a world where effective characters aren't possible; merely to create one where characters other than pure mages and clerics can dominate, for once. 4. Shapeshifting classes exist, but there are certain hazards to shapeshifting, which the players will discover in the course of time. Heh...
Visanideth 01-31-04, 10:57 AM	I would say that you need to keep an eye out for "brutes". While the iaijutsu master is impressive and all, he needs very high stats and magical equipment to work properly. What you need to fear is the half-ogre barbarian/bear warrior/warhulk. Classes and races that give huge stat bonuses will reign supreme in combat. With little magic, ACs will remain in the 20-25 range even at epic lvls, and thus barbarians and similar concepts will be certainly the best choices as far as efficiency is involved. Lots of classes that lose about 6-10 points of AC because of magic will gain a lot of power. The point is, a good armor and a large shield give you 8 points of AC. The same equipment can give you 18 points of AC thanks to magic. Remove magic, and armor will become partly redundant, while shields will disappear. Monks and barbarians will rejoyce, more ordinary warriors will suffer. Paladins will be HUGE. They can get ACs that no one else can attain, and huge damage as well. With good rolls, you can make great swashbucker/duelist builds; Improved Combat expertise will be a must-have feat (even more so, considering that hitting will be theorically easier, due to the lack of magic armor, amulets and stuff).
TwoSix26 01-31-04, 11:41 AM	Given that ACs will be much lower tha normal without magic items, but attack bonues will still probably be similar, I'd say giving a Base Defense Bonus to classes might be a good idea. I did the same thing in a fairly low-magic campaign I ran about 18 months ago, and it worked fairly well. I didn't get to test it at higher levels, so take the idea with a grain of salt. Just as an idea, the Blighter from MotW would be a good BBEG in this kind of campaign.
Falido 01-31-04, 12:44 PM	Dwarven defenders would be amazing in this setting Dr + high ac ect great hp Dwarven Defender. And if you could find a friend you could go for a dwarven defender/ devoted defender duo with a nice dex and combat refelxes gives you a good dmg output and great ac
Snow Savant 01-31-04, 01:42 PM	With your criteria, Caelic, the Bard-20 is indeed a "Power Build". 3. (The biggie) There are no primary casters. Period. No Clerics, no Wizards, no Sorcerors, no Druids. Spellcasters in this world are uniformly "secondary casters"--bards, rangers, hexblades, and Paladins. (Paladins of every alignment exist, however, with slight modifications--the overall character type is referred to as a "Zealot.") Hmmm ... I think I found a loophole here. You said there are no primary casters. Although you said nothing about accessing Wiz/Sorc, Cleric, or Druid spells. Ergo ... Bard13 / MageArcaneOrder7 I can now cast 6th level Bard *or* Wiz/Sorc spells. Bard10 / MageArcaneOrder7 / DivineOracle2 / SacredExorcist1 As the above, but with 2 additional PrD's added to their castable spell list. And a full 20 levels of spellcasting capability to boot. Bard16 / HolyLiberator3 / SpellSword1 Battle Bard! BAB +16, 6th Level Bard Spells (w/high CHA Mod.), Turning with Divine Might Feat, & HL goodies. Grab a Greatsword and you are good to go! The Arcane Strike & Divine Might Feat combo will make this build a serious melee force to be reckoned with. Bard16 / Ftr1 / SpellSword3 Battle Bard #2! BAB +16 again, but with 1 more spellcaster level (18 instead of 17), 2 bonus feats, & you can wear heavier enchanted armor. **************** Paladin5 / Ftr2 / Templar10 / Marshal2 / KnightMiddleCircle1 Templar, in your campaign, should be one of the more powerful PrC's in regards to versatility and bang-for-the-buck. This build capitalizes on the Templar mechanics and prefix synergy. If you are a DM who feels Templars should be monitoring the Temple, feel free to ignore this build. :) Although for adventure-friendly deities, Templars should have time to adventure or go on religious missions tied to dungeon crawls. Or tend to the make-shift or way-station temples en route to the dungeon. ************ Finally, straight Paladins and Rangers are powered-up in your campaign as well. Sounds like a fun one, Caelic! I bet you are an awesome DM to play for. ...... or a Tyrant, one of the two. :P XO, Snow :cloud9:
horndgod 01-31-04, 01:59 PM	Bard 10/ Contemplative 10 This will ultimately allow the casting ability of a 10th level cleric. Another thing to keep in mind is that with such a low magic world, bringing people back from the dead is going to be nigh on impossible. Caelic, you still have to tell us whether psions are allowed. Good call with the MotAO, Snow, but won't the only spells available be the ones of the people that are members of the order? So, nothing that isn't already on a spell list. Although it still would expand a character's repertoire to all bard spells.
Stoned Golem 01-31-04, 02:40 PM	By the same logic, if there aren't Clerics than Contemplative probably wouldn't grant advancement as one. If it did though, Bard 10/Contemplative 3/MT 7 could be a new power build. Either way it's still a good way to cherry-pick a domain though.
Matt Neuman 01-31-04, 03:08 PM	How about PC Adepts? Bard 4/Adept 6/Mystic Theurge 10 BAB: +11 Bard Caster Level: 14th (5th level bard spells) Adept Caster Level: 16th (5th level adept spells) Normally this would be a pathetic choice, but in your campaign, it might be pretty dangerous. You'd eventually have access to Heal (a spell that otherwise might not be possible to aquire as a PC), as well as animate dead if you're evil (another thing mostly missing from the setting-necromancy). Plus you'd have some pretty decent blasting spells (comparatively), such as lightning bolt and scorching ray.
horndgod 01-31-04, 03:10 PM	Perhaps, but keep in mind that you have to be 10th level just to qualify for Contemplative and you'll only ever get 5th level spells (pre-epic) while the bard can achieve 6th level spells.
Nyte 01-31-04, 03:26 PM	A monk with vow of poverty would have an AC of 38 and would reign supreme in this campaign. Have a look at neonsamurais vop monk. He would have no match!
PhaedrusXY 01-31-04, 03:42 PM	Hmm... how good is the Mindbender at controlling people? I don't have Tome and Blood, but a Bard8/MindbenderX/WhateverSnowIsSuggestingX might be a great combo in this world. It would replace the iconic wizard as the devious, behind the scenes powerful magic user who's manipulating people.
Previn 01-31-04, 03:54 PM	Originally posted by Nyte A monk with vow of poverty would have an AC of 38 and would reign supreme in this campaign. Have a look at neonsamurais vop monk. He would have no match! Good thing on the very first post: 2. All 3.5 core books permitted. 3.0 material is permitted with permission. The Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness are not permitted.
Caelic 01-31-04, 10:54 PM	Hmm. MotAO is out--not because I'm concerned about the power level, but because campaign logic just doesn't support it. There just aren't enough spellcasters to support a specialized, highly-organized wizard's guild of this sort. Contemplative is also going to be out--again, not because of the power level, but for story reasons. Without going into detail, suffice to say that there's a reason clerical magic failed at the same time arcane magic did--and that as a result of that, one of the requirements of Contemplative is basically impossible to fulfill. Now, the PCs may very well solve that particular mystery, and even have a chance of changing it...but as things stand at the start of the campaign, there's no way a character's ever going to meet their deity or his intermediaries. Divine Oracle is in. Sacred Exorcist...uhm. I'm trying to think of where it would fit in given the campaign world. On the other hand, if a player takes a PrC that results in them gaining a cleric caster level, then yes, I'm going to let them take advantage of that. Adepts are also permitted as PCs; coupled with Hexer, which is also allowed, an adept can actually get pretty formidable. Psionics aren't allowed until WotC puts out a better thought out psionics book with fewer loopholes.
PhaedrusXY 02-01-04, 12:55 AM	Originally posted by Caelic On the other hand, if a player takes a PrC that results in them gaining a cleric caster level, then yes, I'm going to let them take advantage of that. Then you better throw out the Hospitaler right now, heh.
horndgod 02-01-04, 01:49 AM	Anything that allows people to customize magic items will be formidable. Kensai and OA Samurai spring to mind, as well as Ancestral Relic (although BoED is out). Bard 10/Candlecaster10 could be useful since item creation feats are otherwise unavailable.
Visanideth 02-01-04, 01:08 PM	Another thing: an high magic setting that suddenly loses its main propulsive force would quickly look for other ways to avoid falling into some kind of "Dark Age". In short, technology. I'm not saying that you should create a post-apocalyptic science-fantasy setting, but consider a few things: - in an high magic setting, gunpowder would be seen as a needlessy complicated way to replicate the effects of magic, with poor results. Remove magic, and those arquebus/cannon/granade won't seem so bad. - steam power: without magic, traveling becomes impossibly difficult - at least to those who were used to teleporting and plane shifting. Not only that, but steam power could fill up a lot of roles previously assigned to magic. In short, people will look for "mundane" ways of doing what they were doing before, without magic... That brings up a perfect chance to bring out an old idea of mine. What if a group of people started looking for "alternative" (alchemy? science?) ways to toy with the fabric of reality? Doing so could lead to the creation of "frankenstein monsters" of sorts... like this creation. The idea is that an organization started looking for the few "supernatural" creatures remaining, and tried to exploit their capabilities, or even find a way replicate them... Suppose they find a troll, and after endless experimentations, they try to turn it into a warmachine. In short, a variation on the Wolverine theme. Graugh, The Steel Nemesis Half Iron Golem Troll, Fighter 4/Warhulk 10 HD: 6d8 + 4d10 + 10d12 + 9 (Toughness) + 240 Cos + 15 construct, hp 367+ Speed: 30 ft. (can't run) Space/reach: 10 ft/ 10 ft Initiative: +2 (Dex) AC: 27 (10 base + 2 Dex + 11 natural + 5 grafted armor [chainmail equivalent] - 1 size) Base attack/grapple: +18/+41 Attack: masterwork metal claw +43 Full attack: 2 masterwork metal claws + 43 (1d6+21), 1 bite + 41 (1d6+10) Special attacks: breath weapon (iron golem), great/mighty/massive swing (warhulk), mighty rock throwing (warhulk), massive sweeping boulder (warhulk), rend 2d6 + 27 Special qualities: regeneration 5, damage reduction 15/adamantine, darkvision 90 ft., rust vulnerability Feats: Cleave, Weapon Focus (claw), Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Specialization (claw), Weapon Specialization (bite), Toughness x3, 5 feats of your choice Abilities: (using elite array) Str 58 (14 + 12 racial + 12 half golem + 20 Warhulk) Dex 14 (12 + 4 racial - 2 half golem) Cos 34 (15 + 12 racial + 4 half golem + 3 lvl) Int 4 (13 - 4 racial - 6 half golem +1 lvl) Wis 8 (10 - 2 racial) Cha 1 (8 - 4 racial - 6 half golem) The idea is that of a slow, maddened mass of flesh and metal. He made the saving throw upon construction; however, his constant regeneration is in conflict with the metal that was put into his body. He appears like a huge, hunchback yet slender troll, with a metallic, flat mask grafted on his skull. Various parts of metallic bones, blades, plates emerge from his joints or are grafted on his flesh. The pain drew him mad a long time ago. Now the only thing he is concerned about is destruction. This build is for high level, nonepic play (CR should be around 23-24, but "real" CR would be much lower). However, I originally had in mind a more complex plot, involving the fact that those who are manipulating him are keeping him at bay thanks to a powerful drug that suppresses his pain... but alters his genetics. Eventually, the drug will take over, and he will become an even more monstrous creature, with whirling tentacles and all (slap on the Pseudonatoral Template, and say goodbye to a large portion of the planet :D ). Resident Evil-ish stuff. Just a small suggestion for a potential adventure idea, or even a recurring nemesis (imagine the players looking for shelter during a massive post-apocalyptic sand-storm; they enter an abandoned "research laboratory", and find out that something survived... if played well, it would be awesome to put him against a lvl 10-15 party, forcing them in an hide-and-seek game, letting them - if they play well - escape in the end, but have the monster follow them and pop up occasionally, until they're strong enough to kill him, or he mutates to pseudonatural form...) Just a small idea I had.