Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Abulafia 08-12-04, 10:27 AM	Hey gang, I want to start a thread geared around abusing custom rules. I DM more than I play, and I use a fair amount of house rules, custom-made PrC's, feats, races, and so forth. While most of my players are pretty well behaved, occasionally somebody finds an overly-generous situation and exploits the hell out of it. So I'm trying to pre-empt that by presenting my proposed customizations to you, the minmax elite, for speculative abuse. If a PrC can be abused, show me how. If a feat is broken, break it. I'm not looking for "your class sux" or "this race is broken" or whatever. Instead, show how you would use the given rule to create (perhaps literally) a monster. Also, I'm not really looking for elaborate balance analysis here. If it's slightly more powerful than something, that's fine, as long as it doesn't have a loophole that lets you make 50 attacks a round or something. My first example is the Scion template that I'm kicking around for an upcoming campaign. It's basically a bloodline idea, but the kicker is instead of primarily physical abilities, the character with the template "remembers" abilities and skills of his or her ancestors. The mechanics: Ability adjustments: Str +2, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +4 [the Scion is of heroic lineage] Special: characters with the Scion template get a bonus feat at first level, and an additional bonus feat at every even level. [the tricky part] Level Adjustment: +2 My feeling is that this is a safe template. No primary caster is going to want the LA (I don't do buyoff), fighters don't need the feats, and the ability adjustments and feats aren't that useful to other classes. A paladin could make good use of it, but every one of my players despises paladins. So . . . can you break my toy?
acvar 08-12-04, 10:46 AM	Well lets see. You take any class you want. You make sure you have a 20 con which is not hard with the +4 con adjustment. Then you use your bonus feats to take roll with it. So a 1st (3rd) level scion would have a DR 2/-. At second level that goes to 4/-, 6/- at 3rd, and 8/- at 4th. By level 18 you can have a DR of 32/- if you really want. I doubt anybody would go so high bet even only using half of your feets you are talking about a DR of 16/-. Add that to a fighter so they can also feat out thier offence and it would be rather hard to deal with.
Abulafia 08-12-04, 11:14 AM	All right, fair enough . . . but an easy fix. I don't think anyone has Savage Species, and I think there are plenty of rational grounds for excluding Roll With It if they did. Any others?
lonewolf 08-12-04, 11:18 AM	I think a monk with that template could get pretty strong but not game breaking. He needs the abilities and the feats. overall: Strong but not gamebreaking IMHO
Piraatje 08-12-04, 11:30 AM	Actually, any stackable feat of any value will break your template. For Instance, a few from the XPH: - A psion/wilder getting an extra power every second level - Having a lot of Metamorphic transfers would be nice - Psionic talent
Blade2718 08-12-04, 11:34 AM	Even if spellcasters might not want it, gishes might, to fuel both their fighting prowess and spellcasting might. 18 feats might be a bit much for a 20th level character. And a fighter....as mentioned, has space to add lots of Roll With It's. If you really want to use this template, I would suggest doubling the normal rate of acquisition (2 every 3rd level), to bring it down to 14 feats. Does the Scion also acquire skills? If so, I would worry a bit about how you plan on implementing it.
Piraatje 08-12-04, 11:35 AM	Cheesy cleric stacking: Extra turning + - instant metamagic. Anyone for having more free persistant/quickened spells, doing so on the spot? - domain spontainity. Who needs memorization? - sacred healing. Who needs heal spells out of combat? - divine spell power. Raise caster level even more, stackable with everything.
Snow Savant 08-12-04, 11:39 AM	"Bonus" feats come in a variety of flavours. Some bonus feats in the game can be chosen without taking the pre-req.'s (there are a number of threads in CO and the Feats/Combat/Skills forums on this). So I would definitely add in text stating that the bonus feats need to have pre-req.'s met. That being said, let's look at the final pre-epic level of a character with this template. A 20th level character with a +2 LA Scion template will net approx. 10 bonus feats and +18 stat point adjustments. For a non-spellcaster type, that would be a no-brainer. For example, a Barbarian type could basically be a Gestalt Fighter/Barbarian type character who ends up at BAB +18 instead of +20. Is it worth it? Hell yeah! And those 10 bonus feats aren't just Fighter feats - they can be anything he wants! I would probably build a MAD-reliant Barbarian/Champion of Gwynharyf/Frenzied Berserker character with such a template. CoG's need decent scores in all 6 stats. And those bonus feats could be spent getting expensive and awesome feats like Karmic Strike (the Barbarian's friend), Deadly Wrath (PGtF - free Frightful Presence to abuse that +4 CHA bonus), and that exalted feat that eliminates the Fr. Berserker's out-of-control issue. While still allowing me to load up on other standard Barbarian ass-kicking feats. I'd have to do some more analysis with the Savage Species ECL rules, but I'd have to say your template seems more along the lines of +4 at this moment. 10 feats alone is worth a lot. Granted, the Drow race ECL sucks at +2 ... but comparing the Scion goodies to the Drow goodies, and you can see which one is vastly superior. Good luck! XO, Snow :cloud9:
Piraatje 08-12-04, 11:41 AM	Cheesy barbarian stacking: - Greater Resiliance (DR +1) - Most rage feats stack
Blue23 08-12-04, 11:41 AM	Originally posted by Abulafia Ability adjustments: Str +2, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +4 Special: characters with the Scion template get a bonus feat at first level, and an additional bonus feat at every even level. Level Adjustment: +2 Hmm, definitely powerful. Too powerful? I don't think so. As already mentioned, a monk would like this. I think this would also work well for multiclassed casters, who already expect to be behind the caster-level curve. A gish may go for it, though loosing the BAB would hurt. I agree core casters giving up 2 caster levels is sufficient. (Though with the new Spirit Shaman from CD, this gives +4 to both casting attributes, might be worthwhile.) LA hurts lower level characters more then high, so high level is probably where the abuses could occur. Hmm, I wonder how this can be abused with other templates. There are some nice +1 LA templates (feral, mineral warrior) that knock down mental stats. This would boost them right back up, and give more bonuses to the physical stats. Extra feats means earlier/easier advancement into prestige classes. One or two suboptimal feats doesn't hurt nearly as much. This is especially important for non-fighter focused PrCs where you would be giving up 80%+ of your feats to get into as early as possible, now you still have a good selection. This might be an avenue to explore that could be broken, especially if it allows a player to cherry pick the a level or two from a very large number of prestige classes. (Heck, just think about the save modifiers.) I'd love this as a non-fighter melee character - advance in those classes and be able to follow feat chains. But love doesn't mean broken. (I'm ignoring comparing to other +2 LA, like Drow, since you don't care about balance, just about brokenness.) All in all, this looks like a powerful template that will give players a real pause to think about, but not a game breaker. Cheers, =Blue
Tilla 08-12-04, 11:49 AM	Just about any class, other than fighter, is going to go berserk with this. I've been contemplating just adding a feat every even level as a general house rule. My feeling so far is that it's just short of allowing the gestalt characters in UA. Fighters will be insane with their feats - you say they don't need the feats because they already have so many? I've got more than a couple of fighter builds that this would -greatly- accelerate their power curve. Bards would suddenly be able to do anything feat wise they wanted to do before 5th level. That goes for any class. The human special of starting with a bonus feat is diminished in nature - so what, says the elf, by 6th level, I'll have (1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 2) 6 feats, and you'll have 7 - as opposed to the original 3 vs 4... that extra feat is worth more when there is fewer slots to put it in... .75 ratio as opposed to 6/7 ratio. Read up on the gestalt classes. Make your 'bloodline of heroes' all them to 'add' a gestalt class every so often (every 3rd or 4th level? 4th, yea). This means your scion templated character will gain, by level 20, 5 levels in other classes that don't count toward their level max. That's just as powerful as your extra feats, less un-balancing, and stretches the power gain out over 4 levels for each gain. Just a suggestion.
Mucknuggle 08-12-04, 03:39 PM	I also think that the template is too powerful at LA+2. Snow has pointed out what is probably the best abuse (ie creating a super tank that does everything her gatling chain fighter build can, but that can also do a heck of a lot more damage). I also wouldn't mind taking it as a cleric. With the changes to Persistent Spell/Divine Metamagic, having 10 extra feats to play around with would be awesome, especially if you are using the Unearthed Arcana LA buyoff rules (the Auspician melee cleric would love this template...). Artificers (Eberron) would also LOVE to have this template. They'd be able to be master buffers AND master blasters with ease. I definitely think that you should change the LA to +3 or +4. And be sure to add in the part about needing to meet the feat pre-reqs before taking it as a bonus feat. EDIT: Just to be sure, do you want us to give you an example build that would break this template?
Abulafia 08-12-04, 03:51 PM	I was wrapping up a point-by-point response to each of your comments when the g*dd*mn power went out in my office. Then, after I re-write everything, the effing boards go on freakin’ holiday. So if my replies seem a little impatient and annoyed, that's why. Piraatje: No psionics IMC. I think the +2 LA will be enough to keep casters away, but I'll keep your comments in mind regarding Divine Metamagic. Blade2718: I might rework the bonus feat rate if I can see how it's going to be problematic. Right now, I'm leaning towards limiting the available bonus feats, but I need to think about it some more. Maybe the character has limited control over what abilities he “remembers”? No skills involved in the template -- when I mentioned "abilities and skills" in my original post, I meant skills in the plain-language sense, not in the game-mechanics sense. Snow: You could break my little game with some duct tape and a Silent Image spell. ;) I don't think I need to spell out that you have to meet feat prereqs, but if the question arises, that's the answer. My big concern is what you noted: the potential for non-fighter FullBabs (i.e., barbarians, paladins, and rangers) to abuse this template. So I might adjust it to make it less friendly to the primary melee types. I was kicking around an alignment requirement – lawful neutral keeps barbarians and paladins out – but I don’t like to restrict my players like that, and I don’t think it makes sense conceptually. Blue23: Hike! (sorry) Thanks for your comments. There probably won't be other templates available . . . maybe half-celestial and half-dragon (at +4 LA each), so I don't think that'll be too problematic, unless you can come up with a gamebreaking combo. I'm hoping that by the time the LA becomes palatable, the marginal utility of the extra feats drops as well, so it all kind of evens out. I don't think the PrC prereq thing will be a problem -- you may have all your feats, but meeting that BAB requirement will be a pain. Tilla: I am familiar with the gestalt rules, thank you, and I have chosen not to apply them. I ran a gestalt campaign a couple of months ago, and even though I liked the 2E feel to multiclassing, re-configuring everyone and everything was a capital-P Pain. I don't think fighters will be a problem (see comments above about other melee'ers), and if I ever change a rule because I'm afraid bards will be overpowered . . . well, I'll turn in my DM license and light myself on fire. Mucknuggle: As above. And yes, if you have an example, lay it on me. Just to be clear, I don't really care if the template is a little overpowered at LA +2 (there's some rp-related counterbalance to it), just as long as it's not game-breaking. If LA +3 is more appropriate, that's fine; but if it should be LA +10, and you can show me why, then I need to work on it.
amalcon 08-12-04, 03:52 PM	Originally posted by Snow Savant "Bonus" feats come in a variety of flavours. Some bonus feats in the game can be chosen without taking the pre-req.'s (there are a number of threads in CO and the Feats/Combat/Skills forums on this). So I would definitely add in text stating that the bonus feats need to have pre-req.'s met. Well yes, but the general pattern is that all bonus feats you get to select yourself (from more than two options), you must meet prereqs for. Still worth mentioning, because this isn't actually a rule, it's just true in all cases. That said, if you specify that 1. You cannot select a feat you already posess with a template slot, and 2. If the feat has prerequisite feats, those feats must be taken with template slots (this is both for flavor and to keep from getting a feat tree TOO rapidly), I don't think it's TOO unbalanced. It might be worth playing with the mechanics a little (LA +3, feats like the Psychic Warrior but without the first level one, reduce the ability bonuses, or something), but the idea is sound.
handforged 08-12-04, 04:11 PM	Just a quick third level comparison to think about: Level 1 Barbarian Scion vs. Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 using default array: Str 16 vs. 14 Dex 15 vs. 13 Con 19 vs. 15 Int 14 vs. 12 Wis 14 vs. 10 Cha 12 vs. 8 HP: 16 vs 29 Melee Attack: +4 vs. +5 Fort: +6 vs. +7 Ref: +2 vs. +1 Will: +2 vs. +0 Rage, movement, 3 feats vs. Rage, movement, three feats, two Ftr bonus feats At this low level, they look about even, but at higher levels, for a non-fighter melee character it would be a no-brainer. Things to think about for a two level investment, you get easier access to INT restricted Ftr feats, 36 HP, 18 skill points, +5 to saves, no dump stat, etc. I'd say that it should probably be bumped up to LA +3. ~hf
Mucknuggle 08-12-04, 11:30 PM	Here's a game breaking level 12 Cleric (with bought off +2 LA). I'm assuming full access to all WotC books, so expect a lot of cheese (ie Dweomercheater of Mystra). Let's go for a 32 point buy. Human Cleric 5/ Dweomerkeeper 2/ Divine Disciple 5 (Outsider) Str 10 [+0] ..base 8 (0 pts) + 2 template Dex 10 [+0] ..base 8 (0 pts) + 2 template Con 18 [+4] ..base 14 (6 pts) + 4 template Int 18 [+4] ..base 16 (10 pts) + 2 template Wis 23 [+6] ..base 16 (10 pts) + 7 = 4th, 8th, 12th; 4 template Cha 18 [+4] ..base 14 (6 pts) + 4 template Feats Hum = Magical Training: 1st = Extend Spell, Nymph's Kiss* 2nd = Persistent Spell 3rd = Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) 4th = Extra Turning* 6th = Extra Turning, Quicken Spell* 8th = Extra Turning* 9th = Extra Turning 10th = Extra Turning* Rune Domain = Scribe Scroll 12th = Extra Turning, Extra Turning* * = feat from template Turning Attempts/Day = 3 + 4 CHA + 28 Extra Turningx7 = 35 I was being really lazy with the bonus feat selection, but meh, it is still broken. Here we have a level 12 cleric that can make 5 persistent spells per day. That means: *Persistent Divine Power *Persistent Divine Favor *Persistent Draconic Polymorph (through Greater Anyspell) *Persistent Righteous Might *Persistent Freedom of Movement *Extended Spikes on your quarterstaff *Extended Greater Magic Weapon on your quarterstaff *Extended Magical Vestment on your fullplate *Extended Magical Vestment on your +1 Animated Darkwood Large Shield *Extended Superior Resistance Now, since we are an outsider because of level 5 Divine Disciple, we will choose the Kelvezu demon as our polymorph form. This gives us some nice new physical stats: Str 42 [+16] 20 base + 8 Draconic Polymorph + 6 Enhancement (Divine Power) + 8 Size (Righteous Might) Dex 31 [+10] Con 22 [+6] = 16 base + 2 Draconic Polymorph + 4 Size (Righteous) Might Ok, so now we have killer stats. But guess what, all our saves are now 20+ thx to the stat changes and superior resistance! It gets even better, our AC is also great! We have 10 base + 8 full plate + 4 enhancement on full plate + 2 shield + 4 enhancement on shield + 15 natural + 1 Dex - 1 Size = 43. Remember, we are casting our spells with a Bead of Karma so that our caster level is 4 higher. And don't forget the goodies that having persistent freedom of movement gives us. Now on to weapon damage. IIRC 1d6 base + 24 STR (16x1.5) + 10 spikes + 4 enhancement + 5 Divine Favor + 8d6 SA = 1d6 + 43 + 8d6 SA. And if that wasn't impressive enough, we are immune to targetted dispelling thx to armor spikes with spell blade (greater dispel magic) and another one with (dispel magic). And an area effect dispel will have little chance to dispel us thx to our increased caster level. That reminds me, I think that there is something in Complete Divine that lets you increase caster level by using turning attempts... To sum it up, we are now a melee god, who can cast some very nice spells and we have great skills to boot (2/level base + 4 INT + 1 Human + 1 Nymph's Kiss = 8 skill points/level)! And note that this is not a fully optimized cleric. A truly optimized cleric would have not put any points into his physical stats and spent everything on the intelligence, wisdom and charisma (we are going to be polymorphed 24/7). This would give us more skills, higher spell DCs and more turning attempts. In fact, if I spent some time to truly optimize this, I would drop 2 extra turnings, drop the physical stats done and dump the extra points in Cha, Int and Wis, take the Initiate of Mystra Feat, probably take Reach Spell, maybe Create Wondrous Item. Heck, I might even drop 2 more extra turnings and forget about persistent Righteous Might. After all, you don't want to be large all the time. Sorry if that sounded rambly, I'm really tired from work...Anyway, that my friend, is an uber broken cleric that takes advantage of all those extra feats and the great stat boosts that your template gives.
grey muse 08-13-04, 07:38 AM	Judging from the number of replies to this, I think each person with a house class/template/whatever is going to need his/her own thread. :) A question: what is the approximate ending point for your campaigns? As pointed out, the level adjustment hurts much less at the high end than at the low end. A good rule of thumb is to balance a template for 20th level, but if your games end earlier than I'd use the high-water mark as the balancing level. Also, it might be good if you let us know what books are going to be used, and any other restrictions (e.g., non-evil) that would be in place. I don't know that I'd entirely rule out casters taking the template, but it's more of a concern that there are plenty of non-fighter full BAB classes. Hexblade springs immediately to mind, along with samurai and swashbuckler from Complete Warrior, but I was thinking more of all the full BAB PrC's there are available with 5 levels of straight fighter. A human fighter with VoP and this template would get two extra feats every other level. That's just silly. :) grey muse
Abulafia 08-13-04, 08:46 AM	All right. My schizophrenic breakfast of yogurt and bacon eaten, my coffee in hand, I am ready to reply again. I notice a disturbing trend in the most recent posts -- apparently, reading comprehension is on the decline: handforged -- I'd say that it should probably be bumped up to LA +3. Me -- If it's slightly more powerful than something, that's fine . . . Just to be clear, I don't really care if the template is a little overpowered at LA +2 [. . . ]just as long as it's not game-breaking. If LA +3 is more appropriate, that's fine . . . Mucknuggle (whom I respect tremendously) -- Here's a game breaking level 12 Cleric (with bought off +2 LA). Me -- No primary caster is going to want the LA (I don't do buyoff) So to sum up, the following points have already been raised, and they should not be applicable to my campaign: Savage Species feats, particularly Roll With It. Divine Metamagic + Extra Turning Psionic feat cheese grey muse: thanks for the questions. I want to run a classic 1 to 20 campaign, but level 1 starters all too often peter out around 15th level. Assume that we'll make it at least 12-13 levels. As I alluded to earlier, the LA is harsher in the early going, but that's when the feats are most valuable. The LA should start being less onerous about the time the marginal utility of the feats starts to diminish. As some more background, the campaign world I'm making is sort of an Asian/Spaghetti western hybrid, where ancestry, geography, and culture are particularly important. A lot of OA stuff will be included, as will some of the FR regional feats. You can include Complete Warrior in your calculus as well -- I'm not using much of it, but enough potentially to cause problems. There will be a shiny new toy to break later today! :)
Mucknuggle 08-13-04, 09:55 AM	So you don't use Divine Metamagic? You never said so before I posted the build...And even without LA buyoff, a cleric with Divine Metamagic would be able to hold his own and be a great party aid. Anyway, I really think that you should make the template LA+3 as I believe it to be more than "a little overpowered at LA +2".
Abulafia 08-13-04, 10:44 AM	So you don't use Divine Metamagic? You never said so before I posted the build...My apologies, Muck. As I wrote earlier, there was a power outage in my office as I was writing my response the first time. One of the things that I wrote that first time was that Divine Metamagic was not an issue . . . I guess I glossed over that on my re-write. And even without LA buyoff, a cleric with Divine Metamagic would be able to hold his own and be a great party aid. Anyway, I really think that you should make the template LA+3 as I believe it to be more than "a little overpowered at LA +2".I can't believe I'm still talking about this. I don't want to write about this, and get into a whole discussion about LA and game balance. Or a whole discussion about what constitutes "a little overpowered" versus "game-breaking." A minor disparity such as LA +2 versus +3, or even +4, is not going to impair gameplay IMC like, say, a cleric taking DM (Persistent), DM (Quicken), and 10 Extra Turnings would. Again, let me reiterate that I consider you one of the luminaries of the CO Board, Muck. I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I want to see if my home cookin' can survive the game-breaking skills of a minmax Algonquian round table. Can you grind my game to a halt?
Mucknuggle 08-13-04, 11:17 AM	Originally posted by Abulafia I don't want to write about this, and get into a whole discussion about LA and game balance. Or a whole discussion about what constitutes "a little overpowered" versus "game-breaking." A minor disparity such as LA +2 versus +3, or even +4, is not going to impair gameplay IMC like, say, a cleric taking DM (Persistent), DM (Quicken), and 10 Extra Turnings would. This isn't meant to be rude or flaming, but, you posted here in the CO Forum asking us to give you our opinions about your homebrew rules and you were hoping to avoid getting into a discussion on game balance??? That's what we do here. We take new rules and "playtest" them after they have been published in order to find all the broken aspects and we discuss them. Asking for our opinions on your new rules will inevitably lead to discussions on game balance, what is considered "broken" and much discussion on "minute" disparities such as the difference between LA +2, +3 and +4 (which to me at least, is far from a "minute" disparity). If you continue to post new rules to be evaluated expect to receive more posts discussing these things. As I said, it's what we do. This is the board where we've had multi-page discussions over the particular phrasing of one sentence or even just a word or two. If you were just looking for someone to post random builds that show how to break your rules, I'm afraid that you have come to the wrong forum. That's not to say that we won't help you with your new rules, just don't expect a bunch of people to spend hours making game breaking builds (and yes, the good builds do take hours to make -> thinking, typing, refining. It's a lot of work.). Having said that, I'm looking forward to seeing the other homebrew rule that you want to post today. I do like your Scion template and I'm thinking of asking my DM to let me use it in a Deepwarden build.
handforged 08-13-04, 02:46 PM	I also can't wait to see the next house rule. I liked thinking about this one. Muck, this template would definitely rock with a Deepwarden build. It would help lessen the blow of taking Endurance, and the Int would help with skill points. I would try the following prefix. Scion Ranger 1/Barbarian 1/Dwarf Paragon 3 ~hf
MoogleEmpMog 08-13-04, 05:24 PM	This is too much for LA+2 as long as it can be applied to a pally, in my opinion. He gets +3 Ref, +4 Will and +4 Fort to his already crazed saves, more undead turning power for Divine feats, and access to extra feats so he can afford to take them early and often. So your players hate paladins? Number one, they may rethink their hostility when they see this, perhaps going with an oddball paladin type, ala Eberron orc paladins. Even if they don't, what about the various paladin-like PrCs? I can easily see a character grabbing Divine Grace, Mettle, Evasion and this template and going absolutely wild. Once that combo kicks in, he'll be basically immune to spells that allow a save. Also, why the bias toward Wis and Cha (and the almighty Con) over Str, Dex and Int? Personally, I would bump it to LA +3, *but* improve it a tad by making it +4 to each stat. Even then it's quite strong for a +3, and much better than, say, half-dragon, which you're giving a +4 to. Across the board stat buffs are nice. 10 extra feats (!) are more than nice, since they basically open the doors to almost every imaginable combo of PrCs, while still allowing utility feats.