Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fieari 11-04-04, 06:25 PM	I don't know how many of you visit EN World, and those that do, how many view the House Rules forum, and of those that do, how many have seen Khaalis's (imho) Excelent "Lineage Sorcerer" varient, which works with the stated goals of making the sorcerer unique, more closely fit the the flavor text, and balanced with the other classes. Since both he and I are of the opinion that the RAW Sorcerer is weak compared to the other classes, this varient sorcerer is beefed up a little bit, with one bonus spell known per level, a handful of spell like abilities, and some racial transformation stuff if you take 20 full levels in the sorc. I'm using this varient in the games I DM. However, each time I bring it up, I invariably get comments that "This new sorcerer is broken!" "Too powerful!" Funnily enough, the players stating that it's too powerful then pick one up, start playing... and in no way outshine the rest of the party, don't deal any excessive amounts of damage, and indeed, still seem to be at the lower end of usefulness But maybe they just suck. So that's why I thought of hearing from you bunch of munchkin powergamers here at the WotC Optimization Boards, where you have a reputation for being able to squeek every ounce of utility out of any proffered advantage. So here's the challenge: BREAK THIS CLASS! The Latest ENWorld Thread: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82388 The Latest Version of the Class in Question: http://home.rochester.rr.com/khaalisrealm/ I'm looking for characters of obscene levels of power, who outshine just about anyone else of the same character level at any character level... something that is obviously and utterly BROKEN. Can you do it?
Bacris 11-04-04, 06:46 PM	Weaving / Unweaving 3 2nd + 1 1st = 7th level = 5th slot Unweave 5th slot = 2 4th level slots Weave 2 4th level slot + 1 1st level slot = 9th level = 7th level slot Unweave 7th level slot = 2 6th level slot Unweave 1 6th level slot = 2 5th level slots Weave 1 6th level slot + 1 5th level slot = 11 = 9th level slot All from 3 2nd level slots and 2 1st level slots. Sure, he's limited to how many he can have per day at a given time, but being able to convert 8 spell level slots into a 9th level slot only takes 1 1/2 hours. And this is off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more efficient / less timely ways to do it. Basically, unweaving is too powerful as written when used in conjunction with Weaving, and you can get around the clause of newly created spell slots. 16th level Sorceror - casts 1 8th level spell and 2 5th level spells - still has 4 5th level spells remaining Unweave 6th = 2 5th Weave 2 non-recharged other 5th = 10 = 8th level slot So we can convert a 6th level spell slot into an 8th level spell slot given 30 minutes... Weaving also doesn't specify that the cap of two spells together can or can't go over 9... what happens if you weave two 6th level spells together? Do you lose a spell level? does it just fizzle? More to come...
Tarli 11-04-04, 10:20 PM	So a twentieth level Sorcerer with an unknown lineage and a Necromancy lineage spell list can Unweave three Meteor Swarms for six Horrid Wiltings, and then Heighten them all to ninth level for free, because Horrid Wilting is a Lineage Spell. Unless I'm reading something wrong, that's trading 96d6 damage for 120d6 damage with no downside, except for the 45 minutes it takes to unweave them. Actually, I just realized something. He'd have to Weave a few more ninth level slots, wouldn't he? So maybe it's not quite worth it, unless maybe he's fighting a large group of monsters or something like that. In other news, this is my first post on the boards. Here's hoping I didn't say anything stupid.
Fieari 11-04-04, 11:39 PM	Is it just the weaving then? I'd think that the time requirement to do the more extravegant weaving would be a restriction enough, especially since you can't have moer spells per day at a time, so to get that extra casting of a level 9 spell, first you need to cast a level 9 spell... and if you're in a situation that requires casting a level 9 spell, you probably don't have an hour to spare getting another one.
catharz 11-05-04, 01:35 AM	In other news, this is my first post on the boards. Here's hoping I didn't say anything stupid. Well, welcome to (posting on?) the C.O. board :clap:
nihility 11-05-04, 10:57 AM	Is it just the weaving then? That's a very long pdf, my friend. This is just the abuse that they found in the first two pages. Give us time, we'll find more.
Fieari 11-05-04, 03:50 PM	Thanks, sorry about the tiny bit of impatience. I suppose it just shows how highly I think of you here! Hehe...
Bacris 11-05-04, 03:56 PM	see my second example on the power of weaving / unweaving. one 8th level slot can be gained from one 6th level slot - in only a half hour. one 9th level slot can be gained from one 7th level slot - in only a half hour. Sure, whether or not it'll be worthwhile all the time might be up for debate, but the ability to do it is rather broken.
nihility 11-05-04, 05:32 PM	The item familiar sorcerer ability as you have it written, does not require the imbued item to be magic, even though the item familiar feat in UA does require the item be magic. You may want to clarify that, since being able to dump ranks into, say, a mundane tattoo or a pair of underwear greatly lessens the risks associated with an item familiar. I would classify this more as "exploitable" than "abusable."
nihility 11-05-04, 05:53 PM	The incoporeality capstone ability bears watching; I can easily see a sorcerer using this in conjunction with arcane strike and some buffs to replicate the old 3.0 fighting sorcerer, but better. By my calculations, this guy should be able to match or surpass a melee cleric, and of course make the fighter look very silly. On the other hand, it doesn't happen until 20th level. Also, the type change to incorporeal is interesting because incoporeal is a subtype rather than a type. This seems to leave the sorcerer with a subtype but no regular type, which I'm sure is abusable somehow.
nihility 11-05-04, 05:59 PM	The divine sorcerer's divine aura has no duration listed. I would sure love to have a +4 to almost every roll all day long, plus make every weapon I wield holy all the time, not to mention the benefit to the party.
nihility 11-05-04, 06:07 PM	The abnormally high save DC of the draconic sorcerer's fear aura (10 + class level + CHA, rather than 10 + 1/2 class level + CHA), combined with the fact that fear effects stack, combined with the ability to activate it as a free action (shouting a battle cry to activate; shouting seems like maybe a free action) or as part of another action (shout after I cast) leads me to expect a lot of fights to go like this: DM: Okay, the enemy attacks. Dragon-boy, you won initiative. Dragon-boy: I shout three times, then cast an Evard's Black Tentacles; that's four saves, counting my Dreadful Wrath feat. DM: (rolls some dice)... okay, 3 of the 5 enemies flee in terror, the other two are shaken and grappled. The hitdice cap helps a bit, but still makes it hard to send many types of enemies, including standard-race NPCs, against the party.
nihility 11-05-04, 06:12 PM	There's no duration on the fiendish lineage's aura, either, but basing it off of Protection from Evil may imply one. What are the caster levels on these auras, anyway? Did I miss it? It says they can be dispelled, but doing so will be tricky without a known caster level. Is it just supposed to be the character's sorcerer level?
nihility 11-05-04, 06:19 PM	Okay, that's my first pass. Sorry about all the little posts rather than one big one; I was saying "okay, last one" after most of them, but then I'd read another lineage anyway. I must say, I like what you've done, especially in making PrCs less attractive (they're still attractive, just less so). I might use this myself in my games, though my players might be intimidated by the document's length.
khaalis 11-09-04, 06:57 AM	Hello all, Original author here to make some comments and hoping to iron out any discrepancies in the class. The Weaving/Unweaving mechanic is originally a form of casting meant to give the class some freedom similar to a Spell Point pool but retaining the standard spell-slot structure. It stems from the core ability to use higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells, as well as from the mechanic used in Arcana Unearthed. There were drawbacks built into the system so that this was not something to be done on the fly or without cost to the caster however. They were also meant to be Optional Rules, not core. Thanks for all the feedback!! On to comments… Weaving / Unweaving 3 2nd + 1 1st = 7th level = 5th slot Unweave 5th slot = 2 4th level slots Weave 2 4th level slot + 1 1st level slot = 9th level = 7th level slot Unweave 7th level slot = 2 6th level slot Unweave 1 6th level slot = 2 5th level slots Weave 1 6th level slot + 1 5th level slot = 11 = 9th level slot All from 3 2nd level slots and 2 1st level slots. Sure, he's limited to how many he can have per day at a given time, but being able to convert 8 spell level slots into a 9th level slot only takes 1 1/2 hours. And this is off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more efficient / less timely ways to do it. Basically, unweaving is too powerful as written when used in conjunction with Weaving, and you can get around the clause of newly created spell slots. 16th level Sorceror - casts 1 8th level spell and 2 5th level spells - still has 4 5th level spells remaining Unweave 6th = 2 5th Weave 2 non-recharged other 5th = 10 = 8th level slot So we can convert a 6th level spell slot into an 8th level spell slot given 30 minutes... Weaving also doesn't specify that the cap of two spells together can or can't go over 9... what happens if you weave two 6th level spells together? Do you lose a spell level? does it just fizzle? More to come... see my second example on the power of weaving / unweaving. one 8th level slot can be gained from one 6th level slot - in only a half hour. one 9th level slot can be gained from one 7th level slot - in only a half hour. Sure, whether or not it'll be worthwhile all the time might be up for debate, but the ability to do it is rather broken. The quickest part to answer is on spell level max. There are only 9th level spell slots gained by the core class. The ability to weave cannot create anything but a 9th level spell slot. Thus if an 18th level sorcerer were to weave 2 6th level spells (12 spell levels) to cast a 9th level spell (requires 11 spell levels), they would lose 1 spell level in the transaction. As for the examples, there is an inherent flaw in the logic used for the 1st example. The ability doesn’t work the way the example is built, where you keep stacking unweaves and weaves. Weaving is not something you do to shape spell slots for later use. Weaving a spell is actually “casting” the spell. Maybe the wording needs to be more clear? Currently: Weaving: To weave a higher-level spell-slot, a sorcerer must sacrifice a number of spell slots equal to the intended spell level +2. Thus to weave a 5th level spell, requires 7 spell levels (a 4th and a 3rd, 2 3rd and a 1st etc.). “Casting a spell as a woven spell-slot is a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity normally.” Weaved spells may not be affected by metamagic feats as the act of casting a woven spell already requires a full-round action. The maximum spell level that may be woven is the highest spell level that sorcerer can cast. Your 1st example: 3 2nd + 1 1st = 7th level = 5th slot Unweave 5th slot = 2 4th level slots Weave 2 4th level slot + 1 1st level slot = 9th level = 7th level slot Unweave 7th level slot = 2 6th level slot Unweave 1 6th level slot = 2 5th level slots Weave 1 6th level slot + 1 5th level slot = 11 = 9th level slot So the example would actually be: Unweave a 5th slot = 2 4th level slots (taking 15 minutes to do so) Cast a Woven 7th level spell (requiring 9 spell levels) using 2 4th level slot + 1 1st level slot Done. You cannot then unweave that woven 7th level spell slot to gain 2 6th level slots. This was purposely taken into account when designing the ability. The cost to gain the additional single casting of a 7th level spell is 15 minutes of down time (this isn’t something that can be used for emergencies) as well as sacrificing the ability to cast 3 spells to cast 1 spell. Your second example: “16th level Sorceror - casts 1 8th level spell and 2 5th level spells - still has 4 6th level spells remaining” So this… 16th sorcerer has 0/0/0/0/0/0/4/0/0 “Unweave 6th = 2 5th ” So this… 0/0/0/0/0/2/3/0/0 after 15 minutes “Weave 2 non-recharged other 5th = 10 = 8th level slot” So we burn the 2 new 5th level slots to cast 1 8th level spell leaving us at 0/0/0/0/0/0/3/0/0 “So we can convert a 6th level spell slot into an 8th level spell slot given 30 minutes...” This part is correct. Should the Spell Weave cost modifier be higher than +2? So a twentieth level Sorcerer with an unknown lineage and a Necromancy lineage spell list can Unweave three Meteor Swarms for six Horrid Wiltings, and then Heighten them all to ninth level for free, because Horrid Wilting is a Lineage Spell. Unless I'm reading something wrong, that's trading 96d6 damage for 120d6 damage with no downside, except for the 45 minutes it takes to unweave them. Actually, I just realized something. He'd have to Weave a few more ninth level slots, wouldn't he? So maybe it's not quite worth it, unless maybe he's fighting a large group of monsters or something like that. Technically, yes this would be the case. They could unweave three 9th level spell slots to gain six 8th level spell slots. However, as you note the drawback is spending the 45 minutes to do so. Not something you can do in a hurry and it costs you your 9th level spell slots. Unfortunately, the system cannot be balanced for Imbalances in the core spell system. This ability is basically (if I remember correctly) ... straight from the rules in Arcana Unearthed. (need to verify) The item familiar sorcerer ability as you have it written, does not require the imbued item to be magic, even though the item familiar feat in UA does require the item be magic. You may want to clarify that, since being able to dump ranks into, say, a mundane tattoo or a pair of underwear greatly lessens the risks associated with an item familiar. I would classify this more as "exploitable" than "abusable." Technically the ability states “using the ‘Item Familiar’ option” which by default indicates using those rules. However, to clarify it, this is fixed by a simple addition of a wording correction. Item Familiar: The sorcerer may choose to imbue a magical item with a part of their magical essence and eventually have it mirror their personality, thus gaining the ability to create an item familiar, using the “Item Familiar" option from the Unearthed Arcana (p.170). Note that a sorcerer cannot have both a familiar and an item familiar unless they possess the Extra Familiar feat. The incoporeality capstone ability bears watching; I can easily see a sorcerer using this in conjunction with arcane strike and some buffs to replicate the old 3.0 fighting sorcerer, but better. By my calculations, this guy should be able to match or surpass a melee cleric, and of course make the fighter look very silly. On the other hand, it doesn't happen until 20th level. Also, the type change to incorporeal is interesting because incoporeal is a subtype rather than a type. This seems to leave the sorcerer with a subtype but no regular type, which I'm sure is abusable somehow. 1st is one note on Lineages. They are ALL meant to be optional. Some may work for some people, others may not work. As for this particular lineage, it was more a meeting of middle ground. The incorporeal subtype has its advantages as well as disadvantages. As for the type/subtype good catch. The wording needs to be changed as follows. “They are forevermore treated as an incorporeal creature, gaining the incorporeal subtype but retaining their humanoid type (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects, even when in corporeal form.” The divine sorcerer's divine aura has no duration listed. I would sure love to have a +4 to almost every roll all day long, plus make every weapon I wield holy all the time, not to mention the benefit to the party. Thanks for the catch. The holy/unholy weapon is a permanent aura but only effects those of opposed alignment to the sorcerer. The +4 bonus should have been 1 round/level and thus should read as follows. “At 14th level the sorcerer’s aura continues to grow, granting a +4 morale bonus to all saving throws, attack rolls, ability checks, and skill rolls to the sorcerer and all allies within 30’. This may be activated as a move-equivalent action, a number of times per day equal to 3+ their Charisma modifier. This aura lasts for one round per sorcerer level and can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn.” The abnormally high save DC of the draconic sorcerer's fear aura (10 + class level + CHA, rather than 10 + 1/2 class level + CHA), combined with the fact that fear effects stack, combined with the ability to activate it as a free action (shouting a battle cry to activate; shouting seems like maybe a free action) or as part of another action (shout after I cast) leads me to expect a lot of fights to go like this: DM: Okay, the enemy attacks. Dragon-boy, you won initiative. Dragon-boy: I shout three times, then cast an Evard's Black Tentacles; that's four saves, counting my Dreadful Wrath feat. DM: (rolls some dice)... okay, 3 of the 5 enemies flee in terror, the other two are shaken and grappled. The hitdice cap helps a bit, but still makes it hard to send many types of enemies, including standard-race NPCs, against the party. More good comments. The fear aura was meant to be equal in power to similar levels of SR. However, after rechecking the SRD, you are correct that the DC is too high for the ability. It should be ½ Sorcerer level (thus a Max DC of 20 + Cha.Mod.) I have also altered the clause on activation to be a move-action. The new ability is thus. “At 14th level the sorcerer’s aura increases in power again. The sorcerer’s fear aura becomes a permanent frightful presence that now only effect’s the sorcerer’s foes. The aura takes effect automatically when the sorcerer performs some sort of dramatic action such as shouting a battle cry, or succeeding an intimidate check against a foe (this must be decided at 14th level and must constitute a move-action). All opponents within a 30’ radius range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken for 3d6 rounds. This ability affects only opponents with fewer Hit Dice or levels than the draconic sorcerer has. An affected opponent can resist the effects with a successful Will save (DC 10 + one-half the sorcerer’s class level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier). An opponent that succeeds on the saving throw is immune to the sorcerer’s frightful presence for 24 hours. This supernatural ability is a mind-affecting fear effect.” There's no duration on the fiendish lineage's aura, either, but basing it off of Protection from Evil may imply one. What are the caster levels on these auras, anyway? Did I miss it? It says they can be dispelled, but doing so will be tricky without a known caster level. Is it just supposed to be the character's sorcerer level? Also a good minutia catch. Yes all aura’s are considered spells at the sorcerer’s level for dispelling. As for duration, I am a bit confused on this one. It does state “as the spell (at sorcerer’s caster level)”. Does this need to be re-worded? Okay, that's my first pass. Sorry about all the little posts rather than one big one; I was saying "okay, last one" after most of them, but then I'd read another lineage anyway. Actually I preferred it. It makes it much easier to pass through the comments and reply in logical pieces. I must say, I like what you've done, especially in making PrCs less attractive (they're still attractive, just less so). I might use this myself in my games, though my players might be intimidated by the document's length. Thanks. I appreciate the comments. I was purposefully going for a class that could better stand on its own and that better reflects the flavor text of the class. As for the document – do yourself a favor and only present your players with the Core Class Description. It is only a little over 3 pages long which is barely longer than the core sorcerer in the PHB. When it is time to choose a Lineage, then you can present them with what lineage options you have chosen to allow (or created on your own). You can do the same with the “Optional” rule sets such as the Battle Sorcerer variant etc. I originally wrote the document in this manner to include all of the class information together in one place. Hope to hear more comments. -Khaalis