Break This Class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Break This Class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Saros
08-26-06, 12:31 AM I've put together an alternate spellcasting system that you can find here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=688795), but I'm a bit iffy on it's balance. To that end, I would greatly appreciate it if you guys could . . . well, break it. Anything in that link as well as all official Wizards material is fair game. Hopefully by seeing just how someone can exploit it, I'll be able to fix up the class' mechanics so that it is balanced. Here's the link once more: Variant Spellcaster: The Shaper Mage (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=688795).

Thanks.

~Saros
EjoThims
08-26-06, 01:59 AM he shaper retains a number of these points equal to his Intelligence modifier, and every round thereafter the shaper regains a number of points of substantia equal to his Constitution modifier. These points continue to regenerate until the shaper's substantia pool has reached its limit.

That seems like it could be a good breaking point.

To either get an intelligence modifier higher than the cost of any weave you'd use and thereby retain more than you are spending (if I'm reading that right), or to get a Con mod higher the cost of any weave you'd use, and regenerate that cost every single round.
jstorrie
08-26-06, 02:25 AM The reliance on Con means that if a Shaper has a cohort or party member Polymorph him into a form with a stratospheric Constitution his power goes through the roof. Getting Polymorphed into a 30-Con form would essentially be like gaining ten class levels worth of power, which is unbalanced to be sure.
Zack2216
08-26-06, 02:30 AM This system certainly does require a big imagination to use.

Some things I was thinking of, it looks like it's possible to produce hurricane force winds and centralized earthquakes at first level, and down the road be able to create pools of lava underneath someone's feat well before arcane/divine caster's would be able to produce teh same effect.

However, if we base the damage of these effects off of your YdX limit (y being substantia, x being the element), your "lava" would only do say, 12d6 or so at level 10, including enlarging effects are such.

Also, the wording on some of the abilities isn't very clear, like multiweave. I understand the idea of using a combination of elements to produce an effect (like using force and light (illusion) to produce an image that can harm others), but to what extent? You can say "I create a hurricane force twister in his square," but according to the system it isn't, because it probably won't be strong enough to rip a commoner to pieces (a d4 might knock him out, but rend asunder? not happening).

It's got potential, but you need to offer more examples in your feats and stuff. What if I wanted to use wind power to hyperaccelerate a piece of straw through a guys head? Do I only need to use enough "wind" to send it flying, or do I need enough range with the wind to speed it from my space to my opponents? How much damage would it do?

Force: force energy or is it energy general, like gravity and such? Can it be used to produce "telekinesis" like effects? Like say, create a 5 ft. cube of water and stick a guy to the bottom of it "force" and drown him? Would I be able to force the air out of him using force? Or choke a guy to death by forcing the air out of a targets space? Or hitting him with a thunderclap/sonic boom as the air collapses on him?

The more that I write, the more I rationalize that the "damage" of the effect determines it's effect. But more descriptions and examples of what you could do might help spur this discussion.
Saros
08-26-06, 12:39 PM Thanks for the quick replies. I'll try and answer everyone's questions before going back and fixing some of the things you've pointed out.

The substantia point system was originally as unchanging as essentia - you always had your maximum points, but you didn't get to add any ability score modifier to it. Some people on the other message board where I originally debuted the class thought this might be a bit overpowered, though, so we decided to make some kind of "draining" effect to balance it out. (The other option was a skill-check system similar to truenaming.)

The strong reliance on ability scores does seem to be a breaking factor in the class, though. Do you think those parts of the system should be eliminated and replaced by a skill-check, or would elemental shaping be just fine as original, described above?

Zach2216: What parts of the weave you put the substantia in do determine just what happens. At first level you can describe a Fire effect as "an enormous explosion, engulfing the world and destroying the cosmos", but it'll still only do 1 or 2 dice of damage to a single target.

For the straw example: You need enough range to affect the opponent, and the weave will deal as much damage as you put into the damage component.

The Force element is intended as the same thing that makes Magic Missiles and Walls of Force. It's biggest advantage is that it can affect incorporeal and Ethereal creatures. Once again, you could describe an offensive Force weave in any way you like, including "choking the air out of him", but it will only do the damage you set it to.

I think I'll have to put in a clause that weaves can't cause instant death somewhere, but you make a very good point about the drowning. I can't think of any way to stop players from doing that.

I'll come back later and edit in some highlights of what I've changed for ease of reference. Thanks once more.

~Saros

All of the elements can create any type of effect, but it must be described by the player and make sense. Shaping an Earth weave to gain a deflection bonus does not make sense. However, if the player describes the weave as “lifting several small pebbles in the air, swirling them around me and knocking against incoming weapons," it does. No matter how it is described, however, what the weave is capable of is solely based on which components you put substantia in. If you do not put points into damage, the weave cannot deal damage, and thus is incapable of harming another creature or object.

A Note on Instant Death Effects: Weaves are unable to cause instant death. The only possible way a weave could kill a creature is by dealing enough direct damage to it to reduce it's hit points to -10. There are, of course, a number of ways exist for the shaper to deal this damage. They could drop a large boulder on the enemy (allowing a Reflex save), attempt to drown them in a bubble of Water (allowing a Fortitude save), or any of an infinite number of things.

Multiweave [Shaper]
Your skill at shaping aspects of reality has progressed to profound levels.
Prerequisites: Any two Mastery feats, shaper level 10th.
Benefit: You can combine any two elements that you have the mastery of into one weave. The weave can have an effect involving both elements; treat each element as having a seperate pool for substantia, with the total amount of substantia able to be used for each element equal to the normal total for a weave of that element. The different elements use their own base statistics, applied to whichever part of the weave effect that they are responsible for, with the exception of duration, shaping time, and reshaping time. For these, use whichever base property is longer. Both effects are under the same restrictions as a normal weave. This ability is typically used to complete two tasks at once, such as attacking multiple opponents or attacking a single opponent while putting up a defensive weave.
Saros
08-27-06, 03:12 PM I think enough time has passed for a :bump:.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Saros 08-26-06, 12:31 AM	I've put together an alternate spellcasting system that you can find here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=688795), but I'm a bit iffy on it's balance. To that end, I would greatly appreciate it if you guys could . . . well, break it. Anything in that link as well as all official Wizards material is fair game. Hopefully by seeing just how someone can exploit it, I'll be able to fix up the class' mechanics so that it is balanced. Here's the link once more: Variant Spellcaster: The Shaper Mage (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=688795). Thanks. ~Saros
EjoThims 08-26-06, 01:59 AM	he shaper retains a number of these points equal to his Intelligence modifier, and every round thereafter the shaper regains a number of points of substantia equal to his Constitution modifier. These points continue to regenerate until the shaper's substantia pool has reached its limit. That seems like it could be a good breaking point. To either get an intelligence modifier higher than the cost of any weave you'd use and thereby retain more than you are spending (if I'm reading that right), or to get a Con mod higher the cost of any weave you'd use, and regenerate that cost every single round.
jstorrie 08-26-06, 02:25 AM	The reliance on Con means that if a Shaper has a cohort or party member Polymorph him into a form with a stratospheric Constitution his power goes through the roof. Getting Polymorphed into a 30-Con form would essentially be like gaining ten class levels worth of power, which is unbalanced to be sure.
Zack2216 08-26-06, 02:30 AM	This system certainly does require a big imagination to use. Some things I was thinking of, it looks like it's possible to produce hurricane force winds and centralized earthquakes at first level, and down the road be able to create pools of lava underneath someone's feat well before arcane/divine caster's would be able to produce teh same effect. However, if we base the damage of these effects off of your YdX limit (y being substantia, x being the element), your "lava" would only do say, 12d6 or so at level 10, including enlarging effects are such. Also, the wording on some of the abilities isn't very clear, like multiweave. I understand the idea of using a combination of elements to produce an effect (like using force and light (illusion) to produce an image that can harm others), but to what extent? You can say "I create a hurricane force twister in his square," but according to the system it isn't, because it probably won't be strong enough to rip a commoner to pieces (a d4 might knock him out, but rend asunder? not happening). It's got potential, but you need to offer more examples in your feats and stuff. What if I wanted to use wind power to hyperaccelerate a piece of straw through a guys head? Do I only need to use enough "wind" to send it flying, or do I need enough range with the wind to speed it from my space to my opponents? How much damage would it do? Force: force energy or is it energy general, like gravity and such? Can it be used to produce "telekinesis" like effects? Like say, create a 5 ft. cube of water and stick a guy to the bottom of it "force" and drown him? Would I be able to force the air out of him using force? Or choke a guy to death by forcing the air out of a targets space? Or hitting him with a thunderclap/sonic boom as the air collapses on him? The more that I write, the more I rationalize that the "damage" of the effect determines it's effect. But more descriptions and examples of what you could do might help spur this discussion.
Saros 08-26-06, 12:39 PM	Thanks for the quick replies. I'll try and answer everyone's questions before going back and fixing some of the things you've pointed out. The substantia point system was originally as unchanging as essentia - you always had your maximum points, but you didn't get to add any ability score modifier to it. Some people on the other message board where I originally debuted the class thought this might be a bit overpowered, though, so we decided to make some kind of "draining" effect to balance it out. (The other option was a skill-check system similar to truenaming.) The strong reliance on ability scores does seem to be a breaking factor in the class, though. Do you think those parts of the system should be eliminated and replaced by a skill-check, or would elemental shaping be just fine as original, described above? Zach2216: What parts of the weave you put the substantia in do determine just what happens. At first level you can describe a Fire effect as "an enormous explosion, engulfing the world and destroying the cosmos", but it'll still only do 1 or 2 dice of damage to a single target. For the straw example: You need enough range to affect the opponent, and the weave will deal as much damage as you put into the damage component. The Force element is intended as the same thing that makes Magic Missiles and Walls of Force. It's biggest advantage is that it can affect incorporeal and Ethereal creatures. Once again, you could describe an offensive Force weave in any way you like, including "choking the air out of him", but it will only do the damage you set it to. I think I'll have to put in a clause that weaves can't cause instant death somewhere, but you make a very good point about the drowning. I can't think of any way to stop players from doing that. I'll come back later and edit in some highlights of what I've changed for ease of reference. Thanks once more. ~Saros All of the elements can create any type of effect, but it must be described by the player and make sense. Shaping an Earth weave to gain a deflection bonus does not make sense. However, if the player describes the weave as “lifting several small pebbles in the air, swirling them around me and knocking against incoming weapons," it does. No matter how it is described, however, what the weave is capable of is solely based on which components you put substantia in. If you do not put points into damage, the weave cannot deal damage, and thus is incapable of harming another creature or object. A Note on Instant Death Effects: Weaves are unable to cause instant death. The only possible way a weave could kill a creature is by dealing enough direct damage to it to reduce it's hit points to -10. There are, of course, a number of ways exist for the shaper to deal this damage. They could drop a large boulder on the enemy (allowing a Reflex save), attempt to drown them in a bubble of Water (allowing a Fortitude save), or any of an infinite number of things. Multiweave [Shaper] Your skill at shaping aspects of reality has progressed to profound levels. Prerequisites: Any two Mastery feats, shaper level 10th. Benefit: You can combine any two elements that you have the mastery of into one weave. The weave can have an effect involving both elements; treat each element as having a seperate pool for substantia, with the total amount of substantia able to be used for each element equal to the normal total for a weave of that element. The different elements use their own base statistics, applied to whichever part of the weave effect that they are responsible for, with the exception of duration, shaping time, and reshaping time. For these, use whichever base property is longer. Both effects are under the same restrictions as a normal weave. This ability is typically used to complete two tasks at once, such as attacking multiple opponents or attacking a single opponent while putting up a defensive weave.
Saros 08-27-06, 03:12 PM	I think enough time has passed for a :bump:.