Break this custom class! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Break this custom class! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Cheeseman
11-22-06, 06:18 PM I have been in the midst of playtesting a custom class of mine, and I was hoping to make use of the min-maxing talent here on these boards for some of the real acid-testing. The full details of the class can be found in my post on the classes board, here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=743674)

Basically, it is a pure caster that, instead of casting spells, summons creatures to do her dirty work for her. She is capable of summoning any fey or elemental creature, limited only by its CR vs. her class level. The actual process is similar to truename magic, in that it requires a successful roll to accomplish, and gets successively harder each time you try to do it in the same day.

The class is also semi-transformative, granting some fey-related abilities, and eventually changing the character into a fey, herself.

What I'm most interested in hearing about are some really mean builds or feat choices that could put the Spirit Call ability over the top. I worked with some fellow min-maxers in-house in the first phase of development, but my friends admitted that their lack of knowledge of fey in general hampered their ability to discover any really degenerate abuses.

From what I can see, the simple-but-elegant summoning check, along with the hard-cap on spirit CR does a fine job of preventing anything too crazy, but that is where I could use a few more brains on the job.

Anyways, do your worst (or your best, as appropriate), and break the heck out of this class. I have high hopes and would like to get this in playable condition before the weekend.
epifreak
11-22-06, 07:35 PM I'll start looking, but first off, I want to say kudos on the CR cap as opposed to the typical HD. If that had been the case, I'd have just broken out the epic level handbook, found some CR 943 2 HD monstrosity, and been done.

Actually, how's the CR assignment work? She can summon up to her CR? Or up to her CR-X?
The_Cheeseman
11-22-06, 08:36 PM At first, she can attempt to summon a spirit of a CR equal to her character level. However, since the DC for the summoning check is 10 + 2xCR vs her CL+Cha+1d20, attempting to summon anything with a CR near your caster level is pretty tough. Considering that failures generate a cumulative penalty, and extreme failures even more of one, you can either play it safe and always summon easy stuff, or "roll the dice" and try for a biggun!

Oh, and the Spiritual Affinity class feature allows a shaman to increase their effective caster level when summoning certain spirits, as well as providing a bonus to the check. If you were to choose the same affinity every time, you could probably get a fairly powerful ally, though you'd limit your choices a bit.
Zzasrix
11-22-06, 10:32 PM Nothing comes to mind concerning breaking this... but:

Gaining Cha as a deflection bonus with no perameters doesnt cross me as a good thing. At no point does it mention needing to be in light armor. Also, it doesnt say that the Cha to saves will not stack with others, so it would stack with similar sources. So a Pal 2/ Shaman 6 would have Chax2 to saves and Cha to armor, even while wearing heavy armor, and a Dr 2/ Cold iron. Not saying that this build is broke... just that I think the defenitions need a little cleaning up.

This is also the absolutly fastest DR possible from a class ability. Again I'm not saying that breaks the class, but its a precedent.

just my .02
The_Cheeseman
11-22-06, 11:34 PM The DR progression exactly follows the Binder's Pact Augmentation ability, which grants (among other things) DR 1/- each time, up to DR 5/- at 20th. The only change: they get one of them at level 16, and I moved it to 15, just to keep the pattern. Warlocks also get DR 1/cold iron at level 3.

As for Cha to AC, I really wan't planning to limit it to Light armor only. I thought about saying, "To a maximum of your shaman level" but since you don't get the ability until level 6 anyways, I figured it was redundant. As far as multi-classing goes, I think more than a fourth of your character's total levels is a significant enough "dip" to justify the power. I'm not really worried about pure-class shaman reaching extreme AC scores, since they are harmless without their summons and the feature doesn't transfer to them. Also, keep in mind that deflection is one of the most, if not the most widely used form of armor bonus, so it won't stack with such staple items as Rings of Protection.

As for the save bonus stacking with Divine Grace, I don't think that is a problem. I cannot site the exact rule, but I could swear that abilities that grant an ability modifier to something do not stack with other sources of the same modifier. I think it has to do with the fact that the ability itself is not granting a bonus, it is giving you the ability to add your Chrisma modifier as a bonus. Even if you have 3 different abilities that tell you you can add your Cha to saves, you still only have 1 Cha mod to add. Regardless, the SRD text on Divine Grace, Dark Blessing, and Unearthly Grace makes no mention of stacking with similar abilities, so I assume there must be a blanket rule somewhere that prevents it.

Thanks for the feedback, it's great to hear some honest critique!
Endarire
11-24-06, 03:36 AM I'm unsure if you know about Tome of Magic's truenamer, but it's notorious for having ridiculous DCs to affect equal-CR critters. DCs have a number, and if you get at least that number, you succeed. For clarity, you could set the DC to 11+2x CR. Be warned that summoning a CR20 critter when you're L20, assuming a 29 CHA (18 base + 5 levels + 6 item) and no caster level modifications is a DC of 51. You need a 22 on a d20 to do this impossible task. I advise capping it so you will always succeed on at least a 16 or leaving it uncapped but always succeeding on a 20. Careful with 'a 20 always works' as someone may attempt to summon something uber because it's the same DC as something of the same CR.
Perhaps allow people to reroll 20s and add 20. For example, rolling 20 then 20 then 5 would give a result of 45+modifiers. Likewise, rolling a 1 would reduce the count by 20; rolling a 1, a 1, a 20, then a 4 would result in -16 to the check before modifiers.

-EE
The_Cheeseman
11-24-06, 08:56 AM Thanks for the input! I actually based the DC mechanic on the Truenamer, good catch there. While I agree that Truespeak DC's are a bit... challenging at times, I think this is a slightly different situation. First of all, with Truespeak, the DC is set by the target, and if you cannot beat it you are essentially powerless. However, in the case of the shaman's spirit call, you basically set your own DC, based on how powerful a creature you want to attempt to summon. Therefore, if you're having significant difficulty reaching a particular DC, you can always choose to attempt a lower one.

You are also correct that summoning a CR 20 spirit at level 20 would be a virtually impossible task, barring extreme Charisma mods. However, keep in mind that the Spiritual Affinity class feature can help alleviate this problem by allowing a shaman to "specialize" in a group of spirits, granting bonuses to the check. It was my intention to make it worthwhile to choose the same affinity every time, and reward those who would limit their scope in such a way.

Also keep in mind that Summon Monster IX only summons creature with up to a CR of 13 or so. Perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be the Summon Elemental Monolith spell from Complete Arcane, though. A level 9 spell with a 100 gp material component that requires constant concentration to maintain and summons a CR 17 elemental.

With the way the DC formula works now, it is easy for a low-level shaman to summon spirits with CR equal to her level, and a mid-level shaman with a couple of Spiritual Affinities may even be able to summon spirits above their level, if they're lucky. However, as the shaman rises in level, it becomes progressively harder to summon creatures of the maximum possible CR. This is important, I think, because it would be pretty silly for a single party member to be able to summon and command creatures at will that her entire party should have trouble dealing with.

I want to thank you for taking the time to analyze the system and post your findings, I appreciate it! Hopefully I have made my intentions for the spirit call ability clear, so take a look at it from my point of view and see if you still consider the DC's to be overly difficult. I tend to err on the side of caution, but I don't want to design a boring or useless class. This is exactly the kind of feedback I need!
The_Cheeseman
11-25-06, 09:50 AM Bump for visibility. I made some changes to the class, and I'd appreciate any feedback.
Zzasrix
11-25-06, 10:34 AM As for the save bonus stacking with Divine Grace, I don't think that is a problem. I cannot site the exact rule, but I could swear that abilities that grant an ability modifier to something do not stack with other sources of the same modifier.

If its an un-named bonus it stacks with any other un-named bonuses. You are right though that an enhancement bonus doesnt stack with another enhancement bonus.

You added another set of stipulations to the class and I'm not sure I like it...
New material is bolded.

"You may dismiss your spirit ally as a free action, otherwise it will remain for a number of rounds equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

There is no limit to the number of times you may attempt a spirit call, but each attempt beyond the first each day suffers a cumulative -1 penalty on the check as the spirits grow more weary of your demands. Additionally, if you fail a summoning check by a roll of 10 or more, or if you allow a summoned spirit to perish while in your service, you take an additional -1 penalty on all subsequent checks that day for each offense."

Summoning will be tough enough without the additional -1 to each check, and ontop of that, the creature only staying around for 6 or so rounds. Each character should be equipped to deal with 4 encounters per day, and I really feel that the shaman is no longer able to effectivly do that. Assuming a normal stat build with 16 CHA, means a lvl 1 Shaman will have +4 to summoning. The first check is a ~50% chance to summon assuming you dont have 10 rounds to prep for a fight. Each time he fails it also makes it harder, and each time a creature dies it makes it harder. I just dont see this class really contributing to combat situations, because of the short lived spirit.

Also, you dont mention in the spirit abilites section what happens if the spirit dies. Do they get their powers back? Can you summon it again that day? Can you summon it again ever?

A couple thoughts:
Take off the duration of the spirit, and allow the shaman to roleplay and act with care to the spirit. If there is a duration on a spirit the player may just see the spirit as a glorified DoT or Buff spell, and not as an entity to be treated with respect and care. If you do this I would also suggest that if the spirit dies, there is a significant penalty to summoning a new spirit (ie- no spells or spell like abilities, and a -5 to checks cummulative for each death).

The shaman also seems to be missing another minor combat ability... Im not sure if that would be a small healing ability akin to lay of hands, or if that would be a brief buff ala bard/marshal. It just seems that without a spirit the shaman is dead weight to a party, especially in combat.

As an after thought I thought that at about 3rd+ the shaman should get track as a bonus feat. It just seemed to fit.
The_Cheeseman
11-26-06, 05:01 PM Excellent points, there. It seems that perhaps I have been so concerned with making sure it wasn't over-powered that I may have gimped it a bit. Basically, the 3 + Cha duration was a way to try and prevent a shaman from keeping the same spirit around all day, but I suppose there is nothing wrong with a shaman doing that, and treating his spirit as more of a companion than a summoned monster.

What do you think of this:
-Remove the duration on the summoning, allowing the shaman to keep the spirit all day long.
-Also remove the Concentration requirement, making the spirit act as a sort of familiar or animal companion.
-Remove the -1 penalty for successive summoning (the more I think about it, they'll need the versatility, anyway).

With this method, they can essentially take 20 to summon whatever they are able to at the beginning of the day, and just keep it around. It also allows them to use their own actions, making them more able to act independantly of the spirit. They have the option of dismissing their "pet" to re-summon one more appropriate to the given encounter, but they will then run the risk of failing the check, which wastes an entire round (probably a severe enough penalty on its own).

I'll also make sure to add that if a spirit dies, it is unavailable for the rest of the day, and I'll increase the penalty, as you suggest. It also may be interesting to grant bonuses on the check depending on the environment the shaman is currently in, to help convey the idea that the spirit is drawn from the surrounding land's power. Maybe a +1 or +2 circumstance bonus to the check when in an environment listed in the creature's entry?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Cheeseman 11-22-06, 06:18 PM	I have been in the midst of playtesting a custom class of mine, and I was hoping to make use of the min-maxing talent here on these boards for some of the real acid-testing. The full details of the class can be found in my post on the classes board, here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=743674) Basically, it is a pure caster that, instead of casting spells, summons creatures to do her dirty work for her. She is capable of summoning any fey or elemental creature, limited only by its CR vs. her class level. The actual process is similar to truename magic, in that it requires a successful roll to accomplish, and gets successively harder each time you try to do it in the same day. The class is also semi-transformative, granting some fey-related abilities, and eventually changing the character into a fey, herself. What I'm most interested in hearing about are some really mean builds or feat choices that could put the Spirit Call ability over the top. I worked with some fellow min-maxers in-house in the first phase of development, but my friends admitted that their lack of knowledge of fey in general hampered their ability to discover any really degenerate abuses. From what I can see, the simple-but-elegant summoning check, along with the hard-cap on spirit CR does a fine job of preventing anything too crazy, but that is where I could use a few more brains on the job. Anyways, do your worst (or your best, as appropriate), and break the heck out of this class. I have high hopes and would like to get this in playable condition before the weekend.
epifreak 11-22-06, 07:35 PM	I'll start looking, but first off, I want to say kudos on the CR cap as opposed to the typical HD. If that had been the case, I'd have just broken out the epic level handbook, found some CR 943 2 HD monstrosity, and been done. Actually, how's the CR assignment work? She can summon up to her CR? Or up to her CR-X?
The_Cheeseman 11-22-06, 08:36 PM	At first, she can attempt to summon a spirit of a CR equal to her character level. However, since the DC for the summoning check is 10 + 2xCR vs her CL+Cha+1d20, attempting to summon anything with a CR near your caster level is pretty tough. Considering that failures generate a cumulative penalty, and extreme failures even more of one, you can either play it safe and always summon easy stuff, or "roll the dice" and try for a biggun! Oh, and the Spiritual Affinity class feature allows a shaman to increase their effective caster level when summoning certain spirits, as well as providing a bonus to the check. If you were to choose the same affinity every time, you could probably get a fairly powerful ally, though you'd limit your choices a bit.
Zzasrix 11-22-06, 10:32 PM	Nothing comes to mind concerning breaking this... but: Gaining Cha as a deflection bonus with no perameters doesnt cross me as a good thing. At no point does it mention needing to be in light armor. Also, it doesnt say that the Cha to saves will not stack with others, so it would stack with similar sources. So a Pal 2/ Shaman 6 would have Chax2 to saves and Cha to armor, even while wearing heavy armor, and a Dr 2/ Cold iron. Not saying that this build is broke... just that I think the defenitions need a little cleaning up. This is also the absolutly fastest DR possible from a class ability. Again I'm not saying that breaks the class, but its a precedent. just my .02
The_Cheeseman 11-22-06, 11:34 PM	The DR progression exactly follows the Binder's Pact Augmentation ability, which grants (among other things) DR 1/- each time, up to DR 5/- at 20th. The only change: they get one of them at level 16, and I moved it to 15, just to keep the pattern. Warlocks also get DR 1/cold iron at level 3. As for Cha to AC, I really wan't planning to limit it to Light armor only. I thought about saying, "To a maximum of your shaman level" but since you don't get the ability until level 6 anyways, I figured it was redundant. As far as multi-classing goes, I think more than a fourth of your character's total levels is a significant enough "dip" to justify the power. I'm not really worried about pure-class shaman reaching extreme AC scores, since they are harmless without their summons and the feature doesn't transfer to them. Also, keep in mind that deflection is one of the most, if not the most widely used form of armor bonus, so it won't stack with such staple items as Rings of Protection. As for the save bonus stacking with Divine Grace, I don't think that is a problem. I cannot site the exact rule, but I could swear that abilities that grant an ability modifier to something do not stack with other sources of the same modifier. I think it has to do with the fact that the ability itself is not granting a bonus, it is giving you the ability to add your Chrisma modifier as a bonus. Even if you have 3 different abilities that tell you you can add your Cha to saves, you still only have 1 Cha mod to add. Regardless, the SRD text on Divine Grace, Dark Blessing, and Unearthly Grace makes no mention of stacking with similar abilities, so I assume there must be a blanket rule somewhere that prevents it. Thanks for the feedback, it's great to hear some honest critique!
Endarire 11-24-06, 03:36 AM	I'm unsure if you know about Tome of Magic's truenamer, but it's notorious for having ridiculous DCs to affect equal-CR critters. DCs have a number, and if you get at least that number, you succeed. For clarity, you could set the DC to 11+2x CR. Be warned that summoning a CR20 critter when you're L20, assuming a 29 CHA (18 base + 5 levels + 6 item) and no caster level modifications is a DC of 51. You need a 22 on a d20 to do this impossible task. I advise capping it so you will always succeed on at least a 16 or leaving it uncapped but always succeeding on a 20. Careful with 'a 20 always works' as someone may attempt to summon something uber because it's the same DC as something of the same CR. Perhaps allow people to reroll 20s and add 20. For example, rolling 20 then 20 then 5 would give a result of 45+modifiers. Likewise, rolling a 1 would reduce the count by 20; rolling a 1, a 1, a 20, then a 4 would result in -16 to the check before modifiers. -EE
The_Cheeseman 11-24-06, 08:56 AM	Thanks for the input! I actually based the DC mechanic on the Truenamer, good catch there. While I agree that Truespeak DC's are a bit... challenging at times, I think this is a slightly different situation. First of all, with Truespeak, the DC is set by the target, and if you cannot beat it you are essentially powerless. However, in the case of the shaman's spirit call, you basically set your own DC, based on how powerful a creature you want to attempt to summon. Therefore, if you're having significant difficulty reaching a particular DC, you can always choose to attempt a lower one. You are also correct that summoning a CR 20 spirit at level 20 would be a virtually impossible task, barring extreme Charisma mods. However, keep in mind that the Spiritual Affinity class feature can help alleviate this problem by allowing a shaman to "specialize" in a group of spirits, granting bonuses to the check. It was my intention to make it worthwhile to choose the same affinity every time, and reward those who would limit their scope in such a way. Also keep in mind that Summon Monster IX only summons creature with up to a CR of 13 or so. Perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be the Summon Elemental Monolith spell from Complete Arcane, though. A level 9 spell with a 100 gp material component that requires constant concentration to maintain and summons a CR 17 elemental. With the way the DC formula works now, it is easy for a low-level shaman to summon spirits with CR equal to her level, and a mid-level shaman with a couple of Spiritual Affinities may even be able to summon spirits above their level, if they're lucky. However, as the shaman rises in level, it becomes progressively harder to summon creatures of the maximum possible CR. This is important, I think, because it would be pretty silly for a single party member to be able to summon and command creatures at will that her entire party should have trouble dealing with. I want to thank you for taking the time to analyze the system and post your findings, I appreciate it! Hopefully I have made my intentions for the spirit call ability clear, so take a look at it from my point of view and see if you still consider the DC's to be overly difficult. I tend to err on the side of caution, but I don't want to design a boring or useless class. This is exactly the kind of feedback I need!
The_Cheeseman 11-25-06, 09:50 AM	Bump for visibility. I made some changes to the class, and I'd appreciate any feedback.
Zzasrix 11-25-06, 10:34 AM	As for the save bonus stacking with Divine Grace, I don't think that is a problem. I cannot site the exact rule, but I could swear that abilities that grant an ability modifier to something do not stack with other sources of the same modifier. If its an un-named bonus it stacks with any other un-named bonuses. You are right though that an enhancement bonus doesnt stack with another enhancement bonus. You added another set of stipulations to the class and I'm not sure I like it... New material is bolded. "You may dismiss your spirit ally as a free action, otherwise it will remain for a number of rounds equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. There is no limit to the number of times you may attempt a spirit call, but each attempt beyond the first each day suffers a cumulative -1 penalty on the check as the spirits grow more weary of your demands. Additionally, if you fail a summoning check by a roll of 10 or more, or if you allow a summoned spirit to perish while in your service, you take an additional -1 penalty on all subsequent checks that day for each offense." Summoning will be tough enough without the additional -1 to each check, and ontop of that, the creature only staying around for 6 or so rounds. Each character should be equipped to deal with 4 encounters per day, and I really feel that the shaman is no longer able to effectivly do that. Assuming a normal stat build with 16 CHA, means a lvl 1 Shaman will have +4 to summoning. The first check is a ~50% chance to summon assuming you dont have 10 rounds to prep for a fight. Each time he fails it also makes it harder, and each time a creature dies it makes it harder. I just dont see this class really contributing to combat situations, because of the short lived spirit. Also, you dont mention in the spirit abilites section what happens if the spirit dies. Do they get their powers back? Can you summon it again that day? Can you summon it again ever? A couple thoughts: Take off the duration of the spirit, and allow the shaman to roleplay and act with care to the spirit. If there is a duration on a spirit the player may just see the spirit as a glorified DoT or Buff spell, and not as an entity to be treated with respect and care. If you do this I would also suggest that if the spirit dies, there is a significant penalty to summoning a new spirit (ie- no spells or spell like abilities, and a -5 to checks cummulative for each death). The shaman also seems to be missing another minor combat ability... Im not sure if that would be a small healing ability akin to lay of hands, or if that would be a brief buff ala bard/marshal. It just seems that without a spirit the shaman is dead weight to a party, especially in combat. As an after thought I thought that at about 3rd+ the shaman should get track as a bonus feat. It just seemed to fit.
The_Cheeseman 11-26-06, 05:01 PM	Excellent points, there. It seems that perhaps I have been so concerned with making sure it wasn't over-powered that I may have gimped it a bit. Basically, the 3 + Cha duration was a way to try and prevent a shaman from keeping the same spirit around all day, but I suppose there is nothing wrong with a shaman doing that, and treating his spirit as more of a companion than a summoned monster. What do you think of this: -Remove the duration on the summoning, allowing the shaman to keep the spirit all day long. -Also remove the Concentration requirement, making the spirit act as a sort of familiar or animal companion. -Remove the -1 penalty for successive summoning (the more I think about it, they'll need the versatility, anyway). With this method, they can essentially take 20 to summon whatever they are able to at the beginning of the day, and just keep it around. It also allows them to use their own actions, making them more able to act independantly of the spirit. They have the option of dismissing their "pet" to re-summon one more appropriate to the given encounter, but they will then run the risk of failing the check, which wastes an entire round (probably a severe enough penalty on its own). I'll also make sure to add that if a spirit dies, it is unavailable for the rest of the day, and I'll increase the penalty, as you suggest. It also may be interesting to grant bonuses on the check depending on the environment the shaman is currently in, to help convey the idea that the spirit is drawn from the surrounding land's power. Maybe a +1 or +2 circumstance bonus to the check when in an environment listed in the creature's entry?