Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OneWinged4ngel 12-01-06, 10:34 PM	Current Version: v0.75 http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/OneWinged4ngel/Knight.jpg Jason A. Engle The paladin is the epitome of the holy knight in shining armor. A beacon of heroic Good. Yet in the core books... it seems like there's no reason to bother with him past level 6, especially since the Cleric can do what she does just as well. However, this shall be the case no longer! It should be said that if you're the sort of person who thinks core material is all perfect and good and balanced, that Fighters can stand side by side with Wizards at level 20 and such nonsense, this is not the thread for you. However, if you do see the need for rectifying balance and making the paladin a worthwhile class right up to high levels with greater power, versatility, *and* flavor, then you may well have found the solution you've een looking for! This variant is mostly the same as the base paladin at lower levels, since the paladin is pretty much fine there. It continues to increase the power of Lay on Hands and allow it to use up some of its healing points to cure various other ailments (and just throwing out the Remove Disease ability). It changes smite/day into smite/encounter, since the high level paladin *should* be so badass that she smites all day. It gives the paladin switchable auras to support the party. It also rebuilds the paladin's spell list and gives her more spells per day. At level 5, it allows the paladin to choose from a variety different specializations instead of just getting a special mount (which is now part of the mounted specialization), allowing for a variety of different and unique styles. Further, the paladin has access to a new type of feat, the "Smite Feat," which allows the paladin to expend smite attempts in order to create a variety of other effects, enabling her to use her smite evil ability to cover a variety of versatile circumstances and perform various maneuvers. The paladin is now a more powerful force in melee (and not just a couple rounds per day!), who uplifts her comrades with her heroic and divine prescence, and an effective backup healer. This class is still not on the power level of well-played full spellcasters (Particularly at higher levels), and it is not intended to be. However, it *is* relevant at higher levels, and is meant to be balanced against the classes generally regarded as well built and balanced, such as the Rogue, Warblade, Psychic Warrior, decent prestige classes, or... monsters of the appropriate CR. It's meant to be in the upper-middle range of class balance. Finally, this is a work in progress, and more material will be added in the future. And without further ado... I offer you... The Paladin Hit Die: d10 BAB: Full Saves: Good Fort, Bad Reflex, Bad Will Skill Points at 1st level: (2+int modifier) x4 Skill Points at each additional Level: 2 + Int Modifier Class Skills: The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis). Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields). The Paladin Hit Die: d10 Base Attack Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/encounter 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Divine Grace, Lay on Hands 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Hero's Courage 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Turn Undead 5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Smite Evil 2/encounter, specialization 6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Panacean Touch 7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Aura of Protection 9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Revitalizing Touch 10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Smite Evil 3/encounter 11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Vigilance 12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Refreshing Touch 13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Aura of Life 14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Smite Evil 4/Encounter 16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Break Enchantment 17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Constant Vigilance 18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Aura of Faith 19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Energizing Touch 20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Smite Evil 5/Encounter, A Hero Never Falls Aura of Good (Ex) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilit ies) The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectGood.htm) spell) is equal to her paladin level. It is not a switchable aura. Detect Evil (Sp) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) At will, a paladin can use detect evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm), as the spell. Smite Evil (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbiliti es) Once per encounter, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day. At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per encounter, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per encounter at 20th level. An encounter is considered over when you do no strenuous action for 5 minutes or more. Divine Grace (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbiliti es) At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws. Lay on Hands (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbiliti es) Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. She gains a pool of healing, which allows her to heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level × her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action. A Paladin may refresh this pool with a full minute (10 rounds) of concentration and prayer. Refreshing the pool brings the Paladin's pool of healing back up to the maximum (Paladin level * Charisma Bonus). She may fill her healing pool a number of times per day equal half her Charisma modifier (rounded down, minimum 1). Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature. The target may make a Will save (DC 10+1/2 Paladin Level+Cha) to negate the damage. The paladin's Lay on Hands gains additional capabilities as she progresses in level as a paladin. The paladin may use all additional effects in conjunction with healing, as long as she spends the correct number of points. Switchable Auras All auras except Aura of Good are switchable as a move action. You may have only one aura other than Aura of Good active at a given time. These auras function while the paladin is conscious, but not while the paladin is unconscious or dead. Aura of Courage (Ex) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilit ies) At 3rd level, the paladin may exude an aura of courage that inspires her allies. Each ally within 30 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. Aura of Courage's bonuses scale by level. At level 8, allies gain +6 to saves against fear, and a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls. At level 13, allies gain +8 to saves against fear, and a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls. At level 18, allies gain immunity to fear, and +3 morale bonus to attack rolls. This is a switchable Aura. Hero's Courage (Ex) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilit ies) Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/OneWinged4ngel/343.jpg A paladin has no fear Divine Health (Ex) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilit ies) At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases. Turn Undead (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbiliti es) When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of 3/4 her level (rounded down). Specialization Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin may choose any of three abilities representing three different specializations: Charging Smite (Aggressive), Special Mount (Mounted), and Argent Bastion (Defensive) Specializations are designed in order to emphasize a paladin's specific fighting style, or to make certain choices more viable (For example, fighting with a sword and shield is typically a suboptimal choice of armament compared to a two-handed weapon). DMs: If a player in your campaign has an idea for a particular esoteric fighting style or whatever that might otherwise be less than viable, but is nonetheless interesting and supported by his character's flavor, you may consider designing a Specialization in order to facilitate this choice. Just decide what abilities it grants (usually 4, granted at level 5, 8, 11, and 15) and what bonus feats it makes available (as a rule of thumb, keep it to 5). Suddenly, the paladin designed around throwing weapons (perhaps the Paladin from Hellsing who throws holy bayonets, for example) becomes viable and more fun to play! Argent Bastion The paladin gains a number of abilities as she rises in level. http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/OneWinged4ngel/paladin.gif Sir Merrick Doul, a high level paladin with the Argent Bastion specialization. Level Ability 5th Shield Ward 8th Cover 11th Retribution 15th Divine Wall Shield Ward The Paladin gains Shield Ward as a bonus feat, even if the paladin does not meet the prerequisites. Cover (Ex) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilit ies) Once per round, as long as the paladin is wielding a shield (and is not flatfooted or otherwise prevented from taking action), the paladin may interpose herself between an adjacent ally and an incoming attack as an immediate action. The paladin absorbs all damage the damage from this single attack, and any additional effects it might have (such as something requiring a save, etc). You must decide to use this ability after the attacker determines the attack has succeeded but before she rolls damage. Retribution The paladin gains Retribution* as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. Divine Wall (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbiliti es) As long as the paladin wields a shield, her square blocks line of effect for all effects. For example, if allies hid behind the paladin when a dragon used its breath weapon from the opposite side, it would only hit the paladin. http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/OneWinged4ngel/75436.jpg Divine Wall Charging Smite As PHB II variant. http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/OneWinged4ngel/92246.jpg Jumal d'Arrah, a paladin with the Charging Smite specialization, proves more than a match for this Slaad Special Mount (Sp) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) The paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin). Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for 2 hours per paladin level; and at any time during this period the paladin may dismiss her mount to the celestial realms or recall her as a move action. However, when recalling the mount in this manner, it returns in the same condition as when it was dismissed (instead of at full health). The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service. Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect. Should the paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls. http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/OneWinged4ngel/82294.jpg Alhandra, a high level paladin with the Special Mount specialization The paladin’s mount is superior to a normal mount of its kind and has special powers, as described below. The standard mount for a Medium paladin is a heavy warhorse, and the standard mount for a Small paladin is a warpony. Another kind of mount, such as a riding dog (for a halfling paladin) or a Large shark (for a paladin in an aquatic campaign) may be allowed as well. A paladin’s mount is treated as a magical beast, not an animal, for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains an animal’s HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats). Paladin Bonus Natural Strength Level HD Armor Adj. Adj. Int Special 5th +2 +4 +1 6 Empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws 8th +4 +6 +2 7 Improved speed 11th +6 +8 +3 8 Command creatures of its kind 15th +8 +10 +4 9 Spell resistance Paladin’s Mount Basics Use the base statistics for a creature of the mount’s kind, but make changes to take into account the attributes and characteristics summarized on the table and described below. Bonus HD Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the mount’s base attack and base save bonuses. A special mount’s base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the mount’s HD. A mount has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice. Natural Armor Adj. The number on the table is an improvement to the mount’s existing natural armor bonus. Str Adj. Add this figure to the mount’s Strength score. Int The mount’s Intelligence score. Empathic Link (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbiliti es) The paladin has an empathic link with her mount out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The paladin cannot see through the mount’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Note that even intelligent mounts see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible. Because of this empathic link, the paladin has the same connection to an item or place that her mount does, just as with a master and his familiar. Improved Evasion (Ex) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilit ies) When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a mount takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails. Share Spells At the paladin’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts on herself also affect her mount. The mount must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the mount if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the mount again even if it returns to the paladin before the duration expires. Additionally, the paladin may cast a spell with a target of "You" on her mount (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A paladin and her mount can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the mount’s type (magical beast). Share Saving Throws For each of its saving throws, the mount uses its own base save bonus or the paladin’s, whichever is higher. The mount applies its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any other bonuses on saves that the master might have. Improved Speed (Ex) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilit ies) The mount’s speed increases by 10 feet. Command (Sp) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) Once per day per two paladin levels of its master, a mount can use this ability to command other any normal animal of approximately the same kind as itself (for warhorses and warponies, this category includes donkeys, mules, and ponies), as long as the target creature has fewer Hit Dice than the mount. This ability functions like the command spell, but the mount must make a DC 21 Concentration check to succeed if it’s being ridden at the time. If the check fails, the ability does not work that time, but it still counts against the mount’s daily uses. Each target may attempt a Will save (DC 10 + ½ paladin’s level + paladin’s Cha modifier) to negate the effect. Spell Resistance (Ex) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilit ies) A mount’s spell resistance equals its master’s paladin level + 5. To affect the mount with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the mount’s spell resistance. http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/OneWinged4ngel/Duel_by_maxarkes.jpg A paladin with the Special Mount specialization faces off with a Blackguard Panacean Touch (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbiliti es) Upon reaching 6th level, a Paladin may expend 10 points of healing from her lay on hands to remove poison from any person she touches, and 20 points of healing to remove disease from any person she touches. Bonus Feats At 7th level, and again at 14th level, the Paladin gains a bonus feat. At each such oppurtunity, a paladin may choose any Smite feat*, or a feat drawn from the following list. If a feat is labelled with "Aggressive", "Defensive", or "Mounted", then that feat may only be chosen by a paladin of the corresponding specialization. Divine Cleansing Divine Might Divine Resistance Divine Shield Divine Vigor Sacred Vengeance (Complete Warrior) Extra Smiting* Divine Armor (PHB II) Divine Justice (PHB II) Shield Specialization (Defensive) (PHB II) Armor Specialization (Defensive) (PHB II) Agile Shield Fighter (Defensive) (PHB II) Active Shield Defense (Defensive) (PHB II) Improved Shield Bash (Defensive) Mounted Combat (Mounted) Mounted Archery (Mounted) Ride-By Attack (Mounted) Spirited Charge (Mounted) Trample (Mounted) Overwhelming Assault (Aggressive) (PHB II) Power Attack (Aggressive) Cleave (Aggressive) Great Cleave (Aggressive) Weapon Focus (Aggressive) Aura of Devotion (Ex) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilit ies) Upon reaching 8th level, the Paladin may exude an Aura of Devotion. While this ability is active, the Paladin grants a +1 morale bonus to AC to all allies within 30 feet. At level 13, this bonus increases to +2. At level 18, this bonus increases to +3. This is a switchable aura. Revitalizing Touch (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbiliti es) Beginning at 9th level The Paladin can use her Lay on Hands ability to remove ability damage from a person she touches, at a cost of 5 points per point of ability damage removed. Vigilance (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbiliti es) Upon reaching 11th level, the Paladin's ability to detect evil increases. When she uses her Detect Evil ability, the area of effect is a 60-foot radius centered on the Paladin, rather than a 60-foot cone. Refreshing Touch (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbiliti es) Beginning at 12th level Paladin can remove exhaustion, fatigue,sickness, and nausea with a touch by expending 10 points from her lay on hands pool. Aura of Resolve (Ex) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilit ies) Beginning at 13th level, the paladin gains Aura of Resolve. While this ability is active, the Paladin grants the ability to reroll one Fortitude save every round to any ally within a 30ft radius of her. This is a switchable Aura. Break Enchantment (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbiliti es) Beginning at 16th level, the Paladin can break an enchantment with a touch by expending 30 points of healing from her lay on hands ability. Her caster level counts as your paladin level -3, just as if she had cast the spell. Constant Vigilance (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbiliti es) Upon reaching 17th level, the Paladin is always vigilant for any signs of Evil, and her eyes begin to glow with an inner light. Her Detect Evil no longer requires any concentration to maintain, and has an unlimited duration. Aura of Faith (Ex) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilit ies) At 18th level, the paladin gains Aura of Faith. While this ability is active, the Paladin grants the ability to reroll one Will save every round to any ally within a 30ft radius of her. This is a switchable Aura. Energizing Touch (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbiliti es) Beginning at 19th level, Paladin may remove a negative level from a subject per 20 points expended from her lay on hands pool. A Hero Never Falls (Ex) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilit ies) At 20th level, the paladin's sheer strength of will drives her on when death would claim lesser men. Once per week when a paladin would be reduced to 0 or less hp or otherwise killed (such as by a death effect), she instead is reduced to 1 hp. Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a Paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the Paladin spell list. A paladin must choose and prepare her spells in advance (see below). To prepare or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an Paladin’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Paladin’s Wisdom modifier. Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Paladin Spells Per Day. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score. When Table: Paladin Spells Per Day indicates that the Paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Intelligence score for that spell level. The Paladin does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does. A Paladin prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though she cannot lose a prepared spell to cast a cure spell in its place. A paladin may prepare and cast any spell on the Paladin spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation. Through 3rd level, a Paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is her Paladin level minus 3. The Paladin: Spells per Day Level 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 1st - - - - 2nd - - - - 3rd - - - - 4th 0 - - - 5th 1 - - - 6th 2 - - - 7th 2 0 - - 8th 3 1 - - 9th 3 2 - - 10th 3 2 0 - 11th 4 3 1 - 12th 4 3 2 - 13th 4 3 2 0 14th 4 4 3 1 15th 5 4 3 2 16th 5 4 3 2 17th 5 4 4 3 18th 5 5 4 3 19th 5 5 4 3 20th 6 5 4 4 Paladin Spells http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/OneWinged4ngel/Jane_D_Arc_Blessing_the_sword_by_GE.jpg A paladin prays for her spells 1st- Bless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bless.htm) Bless Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blessWater.htm) Bless Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blessWeapon.htm) Create Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createWater.htm) Cure Light Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureLightWounds.htm) Detect Poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectPoison.htm) Detect Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectUndead.htm) Divine Favor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divineFavor.htm) Endure Elements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/endureElements.htm) Entropic Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entropicShield.htm) Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm) Protection From Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) Protection From Chaos (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromChaos.htm) Remove Fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeFear.htm) Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistance.htm) Restoration, Lesser (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restorationLesser.htm) Shield of Faith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOfFaith.htm) 2nd- Aid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/aid.htm) Align Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alignWeapon.htm) Bull's Strength (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bullsStrength.htm) Cure Serious Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureSeriousWounds.htm) Delay Poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/delayPoison.htm) Eagle's Splendor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/eaglesSplendor.htm) Hold Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdPerson.htm) Invisibility Purge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityPurge.htm) Magic Circle Against Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.htm) Magic Circle Against Chaos (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicCircleAgainstChaos.htm) Magic Vestment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicVestment.htm) Owl's Wisdom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/owlsWisdom.htm) Prayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prayer.htm) Protection from Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEnergy.htm) Remove Blindness/Deafness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeBlindnessDeafness.htm) Remove Curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeCurse.htm) Remove Disease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeDisease.htm) Remove Paralysis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeParalysis.htm) Resist Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm) Shield Other (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOther.htm) Zone of Truth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/zoneOfTruth.htm) 3rd- Break Enchantment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm) Cure Critical Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureCriticalWounds.htm) Cure Light Wounds, Mass (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureLightWoundsMass.htm) Death Ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm) Dimensional Anchor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm) Discern Lies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLies.htm) Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm) Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) Heal Mount (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/healMount.htm) Magic Weapon, Greater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm) Mark of Justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm) Neutralize Poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/neutralizePoison.htm) Restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) Spell Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunity.htm) Tongues (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/tongues.htm) 4th- Banishment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/banishment.htm) Cure Moderate Wounds(Mass) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureModerateWoundsMass.htm) Dispel Chaos (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelChaos.htm) Dispel Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelEvil.htm) Flame Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameStrike.htm) Hallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hallow.htm) Heroes' Feast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroesFeast.htm) Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm) Holy Sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm) Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm) Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm) Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellResistance.htm) True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) ___ Code of Conduct A paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment, and abide by a higher standard of morals and honor than the average Good-aligned person. Indeed, she is the paragon of heroic Good, drawn to a higher cause. Truly she is a person of high calibre, moral and otherwise. There is a code of conduct presented in the PHB, but it really is better classified as an example of a generic paladin's vows and code. However, in your game being a paladin may mean quite a different thing altogether! After all, not all settings are the same, nor are all paladins. They serve various causes and deities, and the nature of Good and Evil is not always so stereotypically straightforward in all settings. Your code should represent the beliefs of your church or cause or whatever it is you, as a paladin, fight for! Talk with your DM about what it means to be a paladin in your campaign, and the implications of it. If you are the DM, consider this, and what it really to be the paragon of good in your campaign. It should be noted that a single mistake or lack of perfection should not make a paladin fall. Indeed, is it not the lack of perfection and ultimately human(oid) nature of such a heroic figure that makes him all the more endearing and, truly, notable in calibre? After all, any old celestial can be perfect, but a man has to work for it. Instead, the paladin falls from grace if she grossly violates her code (as stated, yet all too often overlooked, in the PHB. This means that some minor infraction would *not* make the Paladin fall), or if she changes alignment from Lawful Good. Your alignment should be your overall personality and outlook, not the result of the last action you took (although that last action *could* be considered to grossly violate the paladin's code, of course. The paladin's code is not synonymous with alignment). It should be extremely rare for a single act to alter your alignment, and it certainly shouldn't be so if the act was not done with wrongful intentions. Alignment changes should usually be the result of fairly consistent behavior of a character. Ex-Paladins A paladin who ceases to be lawful good or grossly violates her code loses all paladin spells and abilities. She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) spell description), as appropriate. Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character. ___ *All abilities listed with a * refer to a new (or revised) feat here. New Feats New Feat Type: [Smite] A smite feat allows you to channel the holy energy used to smite evil enemies iin new ways, expanding your options in combat. All smite feats require the user to expend one or more uses of their Smite Evil ability. Only one use of Smite Evil may be applied to any single attack. All Smite feats are considered Supernatural abilities, and cannot be used in any situation that such abilities would not function (such as in an antimagic field) Consecration [Smite] You channel fearsome holy energy into your weapon and slams it into the earth, unleashing the stored energy into the ground and uplifting the earth around you in a powerful shockwave. Prerequisite: Smite 4/encounter, Str 15 Benefit: As a standard action, by using up two uses of your smite per encounter, you can unleash a powerful surge of holy energy into the ground. You immediately make a bull rush attempt against all enemies within a 30ft radius of you, for the purposes of this attack, you are considered one size category largrer than normal, and add your Charisma to the check rather than strength. Enemies may move further than 5 feet as if you had bullrushed and moved with them. Additionally, all enemies affected take damage equal to twice your Charisma modifier. Conviction [Smite] Holy energy fills you with righteous conviction, driving you forward in battle. Prerequisite: Smite 1/encounter, Hero's Courage class feature, Cha 15 Benefit: By expending a use of your Smite Evil ability, you gain a morale bonus on your attack roll equal to your Charisma bonus for a single attack. Holy Arrow [Smite] Your presence and faith guide your arrows true. Your faith is not limited to the single-minded close combat of your peers. Prerequisite: Smite Evil 1/encounter, Point Blank Shot Benefit: You may now use your Smite Evil with ranged weapons. This may be used in conjunction with other smite feats. Holy Wrath [Smite] You summon holy energy in order to smite your foes. Prerequisite: Smite 2/encounter, BAB +5, Wis 13 Benefit: As a standard action, you may expend a smite Evil attempt in order to create a burst of holy energy that damages a single target. The energy deals damage equal to 1d6 per level of smiting class, and the target get a reflex save (DC 10+1/2 paladin level+Cha) for half damage.. Half of the damage dealt is of either Fire, Electricity, or Ice damage (Chosen at the time the feat is taken), and the other half is pure divine energy, which is not subject to energy resistance. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time, the paladin's holy wrath may correspond to a different element. For example, a paladin could take the Holy Wrath (Electricity) and then take Holy Wrath (Fire). Judgment [Smite] You channel pure holy energy into your weapon, and unleash a holy explosion with a swing, hurtling forward in a line through your enemies. Prerequisite: Wis 15, Smite 3/encounter, Holy Wrath Benefit: You may expend two uses of your Smite Evil ability to use this ability as a standard action. You call forth a violent burst of holy energy, dealing 1d6 sacred damage per level of smiting class in a 5 foot wide line. The length of the line is equal to 25+5 feet/2 levels of smiting class. Targets get a reflex save (DC 10+1/2 paladin level+Cha) for half damage. Reckoning [Smite] You channel powerful holy energy into an overwhelmingly forceful blow that stuns your enemy. Prerequisite: Str 15, Smite 2/encounter Benefit: You may expend one use of your Smite Evil as a standard action in order to make a single melee attack. An enemy struck by this attack must make a Fort save (DC 10+1/2 level+Cha modifier) or be dazed for one round (In addition to taking normal damage from the attack). Retribution [Smite] You channel holy energy into your shield which is unleashed when you are attacked. Prerequisite: Smite Evil 3/encounter, Shield Specialization Benefit: As an immediate action when an opponent attempts to strike you, you may expend a use of your Smite Evil to add your Charisma bonus to your Shield Bonus to AC against this attack. If the opponent's attack misses, they are automatically knocked back 5 feet by the unleashed holy energy and take damage equal to twice your Charisma modifier. The movement provokes an attack of oppurtunity from anyone but you. Vindication [Smite] By channelling holy energy into your weapon, it can cross the nexus between planes and harm ethereal foes. Prerequisite: Wis 13, Smite Evil 1/encounter Benefit: You may expend a Smite Evil use to give an attack the benefit of the Ghost Touch weapon enhancement. http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/OneWinged4ngel/Paladincoverfinal.jpg A paladin with the Vindication feat is an able ghost hunter ___ Extra Lay on Hands [General] You are a focused healer, and are able to draw upon more holy power in order to heal yourself and your allies. Prerequisite: Wis 15, Lay on Hands class feature Benefit: You may refresh your Lay on Hands pool one extra time per day. Extra Smiting [General] You can make more smite attacks Prerequisites: Smite ability, base attack bonus +4 Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain one extra smite per encounter. Note: This replaces the Extra Smiting feat written in Complete Warrior, which does not apply to the Rebalanced Paladin ___ Feedback for the Rebalanced Paladin First off, wonderful revision! GaffeR This Paladin is going to be AWESOME! -Aryxbez Consider this yoinked -Thwyvylyn I like this rebuild; it gives a maligned class a much-needed boost in power. -CryoSilver ...you have fixed the original Paladin to what it should be... I would love to play this Paladin. Holy, healy, and the protector of the innocent. -Aramek This thread totally warrants the explanation point in its title. -Optimator Three cheers to you, gentlemen!!!! :bow: -Carnivorous_Bean The abilities themselves are great, and seem to give a great boost to a class that needed it. -igotsmeakabob!! Per-encounter abilities! Nice touch!! -sigma999 Wow, great job. :clap: -Antarx I really really like this. -Riodrian I find the rebalanced paladin quite perfect -Aryxbez I plan on using it in my campaign. -HamHam I'm really excited to play this Paladin now. -Optimator For some reason I feel like playing a Paladin... -Prince Indirian :clap: Good job. :cookie: One for OneWinged4ngel :cookie: One for Seerow -Otto the Bugbear You've just brought the paladin back to his old, heroic glory. I cannot thank you enough, Angel. -theotherdraxen This paladin rocks! -EyelessBlonde http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/OneWinged4ngel/ValleyOfKings.jpg ___ This class has been a collaborative effort between Seerow and I, so he deserves credit as well. Also, if people seem interested in using this in their games, I'll probably also redo the Barbarian, Ranger, and Fighter. And maybe even adjust a few of the other classes (like make the Sorceror more cool and flavorful, but not increase power much). I encourage you all to be honest and straightforward in critiques. Be brutal, because I want this to be as damn near perfect as I can make it.
OneWinged4ngel 12-01-06, 10:37 PM	So, this has been a rather highly acclaimed fix on the Classes boards. However, it's time I really put it in the trenches, got it playtested, and found out all the possible exploits and such. I trust that you (or at least some of you), the forumgoers of the Character Optimization boards, know the rules better than I do. So... how does this class stack up? (Particularly against monsters of the appropriate CR) How do you feel it is balanced? What sort of exploits might be possible? If there are exploits or balance issues, what might help to fix it? In the interest of balancing the class, I want to test its resilience and patch up any of the holes. Thanks in advance to anyone who helps.
PhoenixInferno 12-01-06, 10:58 PM	Nice - good job. Couple of comments: 1) Some of those Smite abilities are pretty strong, I would consider making some of them (particularly Consecration and Judgement) use two Smites/encounter 2) Consider making Cover available only when you're not flat-footed.
OneWinged4ngel 12-01-06, 11:07 PM	Nice - good job. Couple of comments: 1) Some of those Smite abilities are pretty strong, I would consider making some of them (particularly Consecration and Judgement) use two Smites/encounter I'll think about this one. 2) Consider making Cover available only when you're not flat-footed. Good call! Does this mean you can use Immediate Actions even when you're flat-footed, though?
X-Codes 12-01-06, 11:14 PM	First you'll have to explain to me just why the Paladin needs to be "Rebalanced." Human Paladin 6 Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Extra Smite 4/day you use a lance with a regular horse and impale a guy dealing... 3d8+3x Str+54 Same build using your variant, except swapping out Extra Smite for Power Attack (using the lance two-handed), and you're doing... 3d8+4.5x Str+36+54 Thats twice per encounter, and you have right around a +10 bonus to hit unbuffed. Theres still the option of people casting bull's strength, heroism, haste, and prayer, adding another +6 to attack rolls and another +18 to damage rolls. If thats not enough, the smites aren't expended if the charges miss, so the paladin is basically *guaranteed* to do this much damage twice each encounter. The only CR6 monster I can think of in the Monster Manual that doesn't die to this onslaught in a single blow is a Gray Render Zombie, but thats assuming you don't get lucky and roll max damage. In short, the Paladin doesn't need a buff. The only thing that does what the Paladin does better than the Paladin is the Prestige Paladin, which isn't allowed in most campaigns I've played in, and is really only better because it's a Cleric, which is kinda cheating.
Seerow 12-01-06, 11:18 PM	First you'll have to explain to me just why the Paladin needs to be "Rebalanced." Human Paladin 6 Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Extra Smite 4/day you use a lance with a regular horse and impale a guy dealing... 3d8+3x Str+54 Because big damage isn't everything, and the Paladin is severely lacking in anything else beyond that. And even in damage, he is one of the most nova-based classes in existance. Even worse in this respect than the Wizard, who is supposed to be -the- Nova class.
GaffeR 12-01-06, 11:29 PM	First off, wonderful revision! The lay on hands augmentation is really nice. I was kinda curious why you made it will neg for undead. More in line with the Cure line? Anyways, I didn't read into it enough to see anything particularly game breaking, I just wanted to voice my approval. Edit: X-Codes, I think that the Paladin needs a bit of a tune up. The abilities are bland past 5th level and do nothing but scale (linearly). How many Paladin builds do you see around here that go past level 5? I am of the mind that a class SHOULD be decent for all 20 levels. The Paladin and the Fighter are examples of those that aren't.
OneWinged4ngel 12-01-06, 11:32 PM	First you'll have to explain to me just why the Paladin needs to be "Rebalanced." Human Paladin 6 Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Extra Smite 4/day you use a lance with a regular horse and impale a guy dealing... 3d8+3x Str+54 Same build using your variant, except swapping out Extra Smite for Power Attack (using the lance two-handed), and you're doing... 3d8+4.5x Str+36+54 Thats twice per encounter, and you have right around a +10 bonus to hit unbuffed. Theres still the option of people casting bull's strength, heroism, haste, and prayer, adding another +6 to attack rolls and another +18 to damage rolls. If thats not enough, the smites aren't expended if the charges miss, so the paladin is basically *guaranteed* to do this much damage twice each encounter. The only CR6 monster I can think of in the Monster Manual that doesn't die to this onslaught in a single blow is a Gray Render Zombie, but thats assuming you don't get lucky and roll max damage. In short, the Paladin doesn't need a buff. The only thing that does what the Paladin does better than the Paladin is the Prestige Paladin, which isn't allowed in most campaigns I've played in, and is really only better because it's a Cleric, which is kinda cheating. Correct me if I'm wrong... I agree that the paladin can do some *serious* damage. After all, I remember my level 7 paladin (who wasn't really optimized...) would cast Rhino Rush, charge, and hit a charging smite for something like a hundred damage. What seems to enable this is the idea that smite damage multiplies. What if it didn't? It would nerf the "supercharge" things some, but I still think that smiting would be quite good (especially since you're getting quite a few more smites per day)
X-Codes 12-01-06, 11:35 PM	Because big damage isn't everything, and the Paladin is severely lacking in anything else beyond that. And even in damage, he is one of the most nova-based classes in existance. Even worse in this respect than the Wizard, who is supposed to be -the- Nova class. I always figured Wizards to be the "Oh, I can do that!" class, where they have the right spell for any situation. Generally speaking, the party is supposed to go through about 4 encounters a day, right? Well, my paladin just so happens to have 4 smites per day, so thats one auto-kill per encounter. If you want more versatility then pick up the Sword of the Arcane Order feat at 9th or so. Now you have all those niche spells that Wizards love. If you want to do some healing, then pick up the Sacred Healing feat instead. If you want some damage, then Divine Might comes in for the save. Paladins have enough versatility with their inherent Charisma Synergy when you combine Smite Evil, Divine Grace, and Turn Undead (which becomes much, much more).
X-Codes 12-01-06, 11:41 PM	Edit: X-Codes, I think that the Paladin needs a bit of a tune up. The abilities are bland past 5th level and do nothing but scale (linearly). How many Paladin builds do you see around here that go past level 5? I am of the mind that a class SHOULD be decent for all 20 levels. The Paladin and the Fighter are examples of those that aren't. Thats true. I'm just seeing a lot of these new abilities the Paladin has as something of cheesy knock-offs of the abilities other classes have, even if they arguably *should* have those abilities.
OneWinged4ngel 12-01-06, 11:41 PM	So, say that smite is an instant kill. What could be done so that it *isn't* just a straight up insta-kill, and instead a trusty standby for the paladin's offensive power? ...Or... do others disagree, and think it's fine?
fnord 12-01-06, 11:44 PM	I concur about the smite nova thing. I would fix it by changing the bonus damage to bonus dice, giving the Paladin "smite attack damage" at the same rate the rogue gets sneak attack damage. This results in more damage on a basic smite, but prevent it from being multiplied on a charge, etc., which is where most of the smite abuse comes from. Re: Hero Never Falls. The way this works seems strange. It becomes advantageous, in certain cases, to deal less damage to a paladin, in order to put him in the negatives without killing him and triggering Hero Never falls. Also, a paladin in the negatives could actually be healed by this ability, if he is hit. You might want to make it trigger if damage reduces him to 0 or less (or if he would be killed outright by a death effect or similar).
GaffeR 12-01-06, 11:45 PM	So, say that smite is an instant kill. What could be done so that it *isn't* just a straight up insta-kill, and instead a trusty standby for the paladin's offensive power? The problem isn't smite itself, it's all of the other tricks that go towards multiplying smite that make it an autokill. Well, near autokill, you DO have to hit. A lot of those tricks apply only on a charge. So, is it smite, or the charging tricks that is the real culprit? If you wanted to wash your hands of smite-autokill guilt, you could make it not multiply. Still, I think smiting is part of a larger problem. It's also tempered by only working vs evil.
OneWinged4ngel 12-01-06, 11:47 PM	I concur about the smite nova thing. I would fix it by changing the bonus damage to bonus dice, giving the Paladin "smite attack damage" at the same rate the rogue gets sneak attack damage. This results in more damage on a basic smite, but prevent it from being multiplied on a charge, etc., which is where most of the smite abuse comes from. Re: Hero Never Falls. The way this works seems strange. It becomes advantageous, in certain cases, to deal less damage to a paladin, in order to put him in the negatives without killing him and triggering Hero Never falls. Also, a paladin in the negatives could actually be healed by this ability, if he is hit. You might want to make it trigger if damage reduces him to 0 or less (or if he would be killed outright by a death effect or similar). Good ideas. Will make the change on "Hero Never Falls." The problem isn't smite itself, it's all of the other tricks that go towards multiplying smite that make it an autokill. Well, near autokill, you DO have to hit. A lot of those tricks apply only on a charge. So, is it smite, or the charging tricks that is the real culprit? If you wanted to wash your hands of smite-autokill guilt, you could make it not multiply. Still, I think smiting is part of a larger problem. It's also tempered by only working vs evil. I agree. Charging can just get... quite crazy. Power Attack, Leap Attack, and so forth... As for working only against evil, that's exactly what Smite Feats are intended for. They're intended to not be as effective, in most cases, as actually using a normal smite... but in cases when you are against nonevil enemies, or in certain unique circumstances, smite feats can be particularly beneficial. One thing I've also considered is the idea of switching Turn Undead uses into a smite-feat-like ability. This would preclude things like Divine Metamagic, for one. It's seemed kind of strange to me that the paladin has a penalty to turning, but that doesn't matter *at all*, since Divine Feats only rely on how *many* you get.
GaffeR 12-01-06, 11:50 PM	Sorry, guess I never answered the smite question: Leave it as is until play-tested. Actually, Rhino's Rush goes a long way to overpowering smite-charges. Given the few 1st level spells per day a Paladin gets... Also, getting a horseback smite off is pretty tricky.
X-Codes 12-01-06, 11:51 PM	The problem isn't smite itself, it's all of the other tricks that go towards multiplying smite that make it an autokill. Well, near autokill, you DO have to hit. A lot of those tricks apply only on a charge. So, is it smite, or the charging tricks that is the real culprit? If you wanted to wash your hands of smite-autokill guilt, you could make it not multiply. Still, I think smiting is part of a larger problem. It's also tempered by only working vs evil. Well, arguably Paladins are the guys that are dedicated to fighting evil, so if you aren't fighting evil a paladin would most likely feel that he's wasting his time in a given party. Second, it's a little of both contributing to the insanely high damage. Without the charging tricks the bonus on the smite damage is only +18, but thats still a lot of damage for a CR 6 monster.
OneWinged4ngel 12-02-06, 12:05 AM	Sorry, guess I never answered the smite question: Leave it as is until play-tested. Actually, Rhino's Rush goes a long way to overpowering smite-charges. Given the few 1st level spells per day a Paladin gets... Also, getting a horseback smite off is pretty tricky. I intend to change Rhino Rush to be more in line with the 3.5 Rhino Armor, as opposed to the 3.0 Well, arguably Paladins are the guys that are dedicated to fighting evil, so if you aren't fighting evil a paladin would most likely feel that he's wasting his time in a given party. Yep. Though I wanted to give them some options whenever you ended up fighting oozes or whatever. Second, it's a little of both contributing to the insanely high damage. Without the charging tricks the bonus on the smite damage is only +18, but thats still a lot of damage for a CR 6 monster. How is it +18 from smite alone? Even if you have an 18 Charisma at level 6, and took the full power attack from that bonus, you're looking at 4*2+6 damage, or 14.
fnord 12-02-06, 12:09 AM	Second, it's a little of both contributing to the insanely high damage. Without the charging tricks the bonus on the smite damage is only +18, but thats still a lot of damage for a CR 6 monster. How are you getting +18 at level 6 without charge tricks? Even with 18 Charisma and two-handed PA, I get only +14. Incidentally, a Rogue 5/Spellthief 1 has SA +4d6 (average +14) at level 6. Just to compare.
Seerow 12-02-06, 12:11 AM	Charging Smite, which tripples smite damage on a charge. But for comparison, by level 20, that's +60 damage on a charge, as opposed to the flat +100 damage from a 9th level Maneuver. And that's supposed to be one of the weakest maneuvers.
X-Codes 12-02-06, 12:17 AM	Charging Smite, which tripples smite damage on a charge. But for comparison, by level 20, that's +60 damage on a charge, as opposed to the flat +100 damage from a 9th level Maneuver. And that's supposed to be one of the weakest maneuvers. Strike of Perfect Clarity is not a weak maneuver. Granted, it's not a strong one and you can probably rack up even more damage than that using maneuver combos, but the ability to just walk up to someone and whack them for 100+ damage without warning is certainly of some value to the party melee specialist at some point in time. Of course, all too often it's just going to end up as juicy noob bait. Seriously, for all Paladins the raw Damage options are there, the expanded versatility options are there, and the extended endurance options are there. You can't do everything good like CoDzilla can, but thats not a fair comparison... I mean, it's CoDzilla...!
OneWinged4ngel 12-02-06, 12:20 AM	I agree that the paladin is one of the most effective core melee classes (particularly with one encounter a day). Some things that I wanted to fix about the class were: 1) The whole novaing aspect. 2) The lack of useful abilities for the last... 3/4 of the class 3) Interesting and fun new options to build paladins. 4) Bringing it up to the level of Tome of Battle classes in power, and various other things that are viable for 20 levels. I do realize the pure damage potential inherent in smite, and I've seen it in action. One thing I want to do, however, is sort of make that the paladin's standby for melee damage (particularly at higher levels), but when it comes to being multiplied it can become quite crazy. Charging Smite doesn't make that any better! Actually, it's sort of because of this that I've been considering nerfing it a bit, and statting it out like the other specializations (gaining abilities at 5, 8, 11, and 15) However, fixing the multiplication issue may very well be as easy as saying "it doesn't multiply."
Midnight_v 12-02-06, 02:47 AM	I'm sorry... Charop boards dont really do "Custom" classes. So what do you mean "break" it. Muticlass mastery? That question basically asks "What is the Best level to get out of this class" Funny... This doesn't belong here.... Good on you and Serrow though good to see you guys kept working.
vylikas 12-02-06, 02:53 AM	The smiting feats only eat up one smite. But many of them deal 1d6 damage per level of smiting class. That's 3 damage average for each level of a smiting class, while the normal smite only does 1 damage. Why would you ever use a normal smite when you could use the feat smites? Especially with this feat: Holy Wrath [Smite] You summon holy energy in order to smite your foes. Prerequisite: Smite 2/encounter, BAB +5, Wis 13 Benefit: As a standard action, you may expend a smite Evil attempt in order to create a burst of holy energy that damages a single target. The energy deals damage equal to 1d6 per level of smiting class, and the target get a reflex save (DC 10+1/2 paladin level+Cha) for half damage.. Half of the damage dealt is of either Fire, Electricity, or Ice damage (Chosen at the time the feat is taken), and the other half is pure divine energy, which is not subject to energy resistance. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time, the paladin's holy wrath may correspond to a different element. For example, a paladin could take the Holy Wrath (Electricity) and then take Holy Wrath (Fire). Which, if I'm reading it right, affects non-evil enemies. Change all the feats so that it is 1 damage per level of smiting class, and keep the saves. Each of the smite feats has something going for it that makes up for the save-for-half, especially Holy Wrath which affects more than just evil enemies. There should be a reason to use normal smites. Or change normal smites to 1d6, but make it unaffected by attack multipliers, like sneak attack, as fnord suggest. It becomes much like the soulknife's psychic strike. Or do what PhoenixInferno recommends: more than one smite cost per use of smite feats. Here's an idea that I've been playing around with: if you want to adapt the paladin for alignmentless systems, then you can change the abilities from Detect Evil to "Judge" which detects how many sins and vices the target has committed, and smites to "Justice" which deals damage based on how much they have sinned. Replace the alignment system with a system that tracks a character's vices and virtues or sins and good deeds, sort of like the Vampire: The Requiem vice system. I don't know why I threw that out there, I just hate alignment I guess.
OneWinged4ngel 12-02-06, 03:24 AM	I'm sorry... Charop boards dont really do "Custom" classes. So what do you mean "break" it. Muticlass mastery? That question basically asks "What is the Best level to get out of this class" Funny... This doesn't belong here.... Good on you and Serrow though good to see you guys kept working. Not sure why they wouldn't be able to be optimized or why it doesn't belong here. Surely, they can be abused and built in optimal ways just like any other class. Further, I have seen such posts here before. Loopholes, exploits, balance, and optimal build options can exist for custom classes just as much as they can for any other class. I'm sorry, but I don't see your point... The smiting feats only eat up one smite. But many of them deal 1d6 damage per level of smiting class. That's 3 damage average for each level of a smiting class, while the normal smite only does 1 damage. Why would you ever use a normal smite when you could use the feat smites? Especially with this feat: Holy Wrath [Smite] You summon holy energy in order to smite your foes. Prerequisite: Smite 2/encounter, BAB +5, Wis 13 Benefit: As a standard action, you may expend a smite Evil attempt in order to create a burst of holy energy that damages a single target. The energy deals damage equal to 1d6 per level of smiting class, and the target get a reflex save (DC 10+1/2 paladin level+Cha) for half damage.. Half of the damage dealt is of either Fire, Electricity, or Ice damage (Chosen at the time the feat is taken), and the other half is pure divine energy, which is not subject to energy resistance. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time, the paladin's holy wrath may correspond to a different element. For example, a paladin could take the Holy Wrath (Electricity) and then take Holy Wrath (Fire). Which, if I'm reading it right, affects non-evil enemies. Change all the feats so that it is 1 damage per level of smiting class, and keep the saves. Each of the smite feats has something going for it that makes up for the save-for-half, especially Holy Wrath which affects more than just evil enemies. There should be a reason to use normal smites. Or change normal smites to 1d6, but make it unaffected by attack multipliers, like sneak attack, as fnord suggest. It becomes much like the soulknife's psychic strike. Or do what PhoenixInferno recommends: more than one smite cost per use of smite feats. Here's an idea that I've been playing around with: if you want to adapt the paladin for alignmentless systems, then you can change the abilities from Detect Evil to "Judge" which detects how many sins and vices the target has committed, and smites to "Justice" which deals damage based on how much they have sinned. Replace the alignment system with a system that tracks a character's vices and virtues or sins and good deeds, sort of like the Vampire: The Requiem vice system. I don't know why I threw that out there, I just hate alignment I guess. You're overlooking something crucial here. Holy Wrath *doesn't* do more damage than a normal smite, because a normal smite adds damage to an attack. Holy Wrath does a total of that average of 3 (actually 3.5) damage per level. A normal smite does that one damage per level... and all the damage from your normal attack! (Additionally, the attack bonus can be converted to power attack for a damage boost). None of the smite feats are added onto an attack unless they specifically say they are. As for replacing alignment... well, that would call for another system overhaul, setting up a new system, integrating it with spells and abilities, and so on. It's unlikely to be something I'll be adding. I may, however, make Judgment and Consecration cost two uses of smite if others concur with that change.
SavageTard 12-02-06, 10:55 AM	In looking this over with my DM last night (I want to play one), our only concern was the huge number of smite attempts. I realize that was part of the point of the rebuild, but we felt there were too many... something closer to 3/day at 1st, 6/day at 5th, etc just felt more balanced to us. Otherwise, GREAT job! :)
OneWinged4ngel 12-02-06, 12:50 PM	In looking this over with my DM last night (I want to play one), our only concern was the huge number of smite attempts. I realize that was part of the point of the rebuild, but we felt there were too many... something closer to 3/day at 1st, 6/day at 5th, etc just felt more balanced to us. Otherwise, GREAT job! :) If you have 3/day at 1st, you're going to be doing "1/encounter" for 3 encounters a day. Or you can nova. If you have 6/day at 5th, you're going to be doing 2/encounter for 3 encounters a day. Or you can nova *harder*. But now, you just don't run out by the number of encounters in the day, just like you don't run out of maneuvers. If you just multiply the number you have per day, that just gives *more* of a potential for novaing, while having a fairly similar effect to the encounter limit if they are used in moderation. Updated: v0.75. Smites don't multiply, Judgment and Consecration now take a full round action and two smites, and some minor changes.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 02:27 PM	Quick question, how does this work with the feat in CWar: Extra smite?
OneWinged4ngel 12-02-06, 02:31 PM	Quick question, how does this work with the feat in CWar: Extra smite? Check the Feats section of the Rebalanced Paladin. This is specifically addressed in "Extra Smite" It offers a new ability that *replaces* the Extra Smite feat offerred in CWar.
Phoenix00 12-02-06, 02:42 PM	Will look more into this class later, but until then can you link the original thread(s) where you posted this in the Class section? It will allow it to be more contained and crossreferenced that way :)
Tokorona 12-02-06, 02:46 PM	I really don't think removing the ability to make smites multiply was at all a good idea. While it can be abused, the fact it could be should not be a balancing principle. If anything, it's not really detracting from the fact that not even at high levels was the Paladin just dishing out high damage except in certain builds. A straight paladin now has to deal wit h a maximum of +60 with no muliplyers at 20th level, far under what others can deal, and definitely under SoD's flying around. Direct damage was already not that efficient at high levels and now it's worse for the Paladin
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 02:48 PM	Check the Feats section of the Rebalanced Paladin. This is specifically addressed in "Extra Smite" It offers a new ability that *replaces* the Extra Smite feat offerred in CWar. Can this replacement feat be taken multiple times, like the extra smite feat, or not? As written it cannot be, but I just wanted to make sure.
Phoenix00 12-02-06, 02:54 PM	Oh one more thing. If I were to play a pure "style" paladin I would easily choose to go into Fist of Raziel, from BoED even though its exalted. Maybe that should be a baseline to compare other builds? Paladin 10/Fist of Raziel 10 Favored Soul 6 or 7/Prestige Paladin 4 or 3/Fist of Raziel 10. I don't play paladins if it isn't noticable. Thus be welcome to ignore my advice, I am just trying to help.
OneWinged4ngel 12-02-06, 04:15 PM	Will look more into this class later, but until then can you link the original thread(s) where you posted this in the Class section? It will allow it to be more contained and crossreferenced that way :) The original thread is here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=729837 Keep in mind that many of the posts are obsolete, and refer to outdated material (it started at v0.1 after all!) Can this replacement feat be taken multiple times, like the extra smite feat, or not? As written it cannot be, but I just wanted to make sure. Correct, it can only be taken once. I really don't think removing the ability to make smites multiply was at all a good idea. While it can be abused, the fact it could be should not be a balancing principle. If anything, it's not really detracting from the fact that not even at high levels was the Paladin just dishing out high damage except in certain builds. A straight paladin now has to deal wit h a maximum of +60 with no muliplyers at 20th level, far under what others can deal, and definitely under SoD's flying around. Direct damage was already not that efficient at high levels and now it's worse for the Paladin Well, if I recall correctly a Rogue's sneak attack doesn't multipy, right? He seems to deal damage pretty efficiently. Anyways, what are others' opinions on it? To limit or not to limit? It seems like it might be a decent balancing factor to making smites more accessible all day, but on the other hand it prevents very high damage outputs via smite. So... the question I ask is: To let it multiply, or not to let it multiply? And either way, is the paladin balanced well? (at least as far as you can tell?)
Prominence 12-02-06, 04:39 PM	So... the question I ask is: To let it multiply, or not to let it multiply? And either way, is the paladin balanced well? (at least as far as you can tell?) Barbarian's str boost multiplies, Fighter's specializations multipy, GMW multiplies, etc. Let's examine. A paladin gains 1 point per level. So every 2 levels he gains 2 damage increase per smite (limited per encounter). Rogue gains 1d6, averaging 3.5 damage, limited by... location. There is a significantly greater damage potential by rogue without multipliers.
OneWinged4ngel 12-02-06, 04:47 PM	Barbarian's str boost multiplies, Fighter's specializations multipy, GMW multiplies, etc. Let's examine. A paladin gains 1 point per level. So every 2 levels he gains 2 damage increase per smite (limited per encounter). Rogue gains 1d6, averaging 3.5 damage, limited by... location. There is a significantly greater damage potential by rogue without multipliers. Don't forget that the pally also gets a bonus to hit and a higher BAB. The bonus to hit can be converted to 2 points of damage a shot, and the higher BAB makes for a slightly higher to-hit potential.
GaffeR 12-02-06, 06:21 PM	Let it multiply until further game testing has been done, says I.
OneWinged4ngel 12-02-06, 07:45 PM	Otto the bugbear made a suggestion on the Classes Boards thread. What do you guys think of this? I read the C.O. thread, and the discussion about eliminating the ability for smite to multiply. As the rules stand right now, the way multiplying works is too easy to break. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6428790&postcount=130) And I don't just mean tens-of-thousands of damage in a super-optimized theoretical exercise. With a few resources spent, and a few multipliers piled up, it becomes too much. Since we're basically running under the assumption of not changing the multiplying rules, I'd leave smite out of the equation. One thing that I've thougt about since reading this issue, was just changing smite to bonus damage dice. Every three levels gains a d6 damage. There are a few things I think about right off the bat: 1) in the end, the average damage comes out around the same. 2) in my experience, players like rolling extra dice. 3) it solves the entire question of "to multiply or not" 4) the potential is there for a really great smite at 36 damage. I'm not sure how that would interact with the smite feats, or if they also would need to be rewritten. But I could be wrong. Cheers Otto :)
kilroo 12-02-06, 08:31 PM	The first thing that stood out to me was the healing pool recharging method. I think I would advise making the number of times that can be done depend on class level rather than on Charisma. I think the refilling capability is neat, and I realize the other abilities it gets scale with levels, but something about the refill mechanism being based on an ability score rather than on class levels...when the pool is already dependent on both...makes me nervous.
OneWinged4ngel 12-02-06, 08:43 PM	The first thing that stood out to me was the healing pool recharging method. I think I would advise making the number of times that can be done depend on class level rather than on Charisma. I think the refilling capability is neat, and I realize the other abilities it gets scale with levels, but something about the refill mechanism being based on an ability score rather than on class levels...when the pool is already dependent on both...makes me nervous. Maybe, but people didn't seem to like it scaling by level when we had it set up like that, so Seerow came up with an alternative to implement.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 09:39 PM	Otto the bugbear made a suggestion on the Classes Boards thread. What do you guys think of this? I strongly oppose changing smite to damage dice. Yes multiplcation can be made broken, but that requires a lot of tweakery, which a DM can simply disallow. Saying that because there exists a build that abuses multiplication rules multiplication rules are broken, is non-sense. You would get laughed off the street here if you said sorcerers are broken compared to wizards (and for good reason), despite the fact that sorcerers are capable of pulling of an arcane nova more efficiently than wizards are. The fact that smite is multiplicative is one of the few reasons I even consider it for builds. A smiting charger is a beautiful thing.
fnord 12-02-06, 10:27 PM	I strongly oppose changing smite to damage dice. Yes multiplcation can be made broken, but that requires a lot of tweakery, which a DM can simply disallow. I see your point for existing classes, but he's basically making an entire new class. Trying to minimize the changes seems kind of silly. Edit: Misunderstood you. I still disagree. It doesn't take all that much tweakery, at least to get very good (but not insane) numbers. As it stands, a 6th Paladin with the Charging Smite option, Spirited Charge, a Lance, and a mount purchased or otherwise acquired (Leadership, Animal Cohort, the party Druid's Animal Companion, etc.) gets +54 damage, without even adding in power attack. Add in a +1 weapon, 3 points of (two-handed) PA, and +2 strength, and you have an average damage of 97.5 (minimum 84). That's a lot at 6th level. And his Paladin variant counts smites per encounter, not per day, so this is easily repeatable. The fact that smite is multiplicative is one of the few reasons I even consider it for builds. A smiting charger is a beautiful thing. Changing smite to bonus dice works on both sides of this issue. It prevents the smite novas, which you think are beautiful, but others apparently feel are unbalanced. It also increases the damage for a normal smite, making it more worthwhile for builds that don't abuse it.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-02-06, 11:26 PM	Hmm... I suppose we have a different view of what's broken. I tend to think of "broken" as: OMG we can't do ANYTHING because this character KILLS EVERYTHING! 54 damage is a lot, but you've got to charge (which is easy to stop) and you've got to hit (AC isn't too hard to get).
PhoenixInferno 12-02-06, 11:48 PM	Why limit ourselves to d6's? Why not go whole hog with d8's or d10's?
fnord 12-03-06, 12:02 AM	Hmm... I suppose we have a different view of what's broken. I tend to think of "broken" as: OMG we can't do ANYTHING because this character KILLS EVERYTHING! It's not broken exactly (I said unbalanced, not broken; I use broken carefully for things like Dweamorkeeper and Extraordinary Spell Aim), especially given the limits, and the way that smite is TERRIBLE in every other way. The bonus dice are attempting to equalize the equation, so that Paladins aren't essentially forced to charge to get decent smite damage, while powering down the smite charges somewhat. If you think this variant is underpowered, you can go to d8s or d10s as PhoenixInferno, or do d4s or d6s every level.
Seerow 12-03-06, 12:15 AM	d4s every level actually sounds a lot cooler to me. It's probably a good bit stronger than normal smite or the 6d6 (20d4 damage is still an average of 40ish, double either of them) ... but I'm a fan of smooth progressions. Even moreso if we don't have to spell it out and add an extra column to the table for damage dice. Probably just wishful thinking on my part though. Changing it to 1d4/level would probably be enough to push it over the line. Maybe 1d4/2 levels (10d4 at level 20, for an average of 25 damage)
fnord 12-03-06, 12:25 AM	Probably just wishful thinking on my part though. Changing it to 1d4/level would probably be enough to push it over the line. Maybe 1d4/2 levels (10d4 at level 20, for an average of 25 damage) You certainly should be able to get away with 1d6/2 levels. Sneak Attack isn't unbalanced, is it? As I (and T_G) have said, the standard smite is AWFUL without damage multipliers. Increasing the average damage a little is a good thing.
Seerow 12-03-06, 12:27 AM	Without multipliers though, this leaves us at a loss for what to do with Charging Smite. Trippling the damage (lol 30d4/6) seems like just a little much.
OneWinged4ngel 12-03-06, 12:51 AM	Here's what I see the pally has going for him/her currently: -The Paladin has an effective and potentially versatile ability that is a standby in melee combat: Smite Evil. And it goes all day. -The Paladin is going to be annoying to kill because... -The Paladin has great saves from Divine Grace and... -The Paladin can heal herself, use Divine feats (include DMM to quicken a heal on herself), and use protective spells. -The Paladin can enhance her abilities in melee effectively with spells. -The Paladin can be a good backup healer, curing status effects and patching up the party. -The Paladin can further be a good support character for the party because of passive auras and support spells. -The Paladin can handle some situations besides pure combat, either as a result of spells or simply Detect Evil. At high levels, the radius and "always on" Detect Evil can be useful in detecting ambushes (though of course, it won't work against well prepared foes) -Some additions by specialization. Some weaknesses of the paladin include: -Her mobility, since she'll be in heavy armor. -M.A.D. You need Wisdom for spells and feats, you need Charisma for Smite, Divine Grace, and Lay on Hands, you need Strength for melee, and you need Constitution to avoid dying. The Divine Cross specialization paladin needs Dexterity for Two-Weapon Fighting. You might want a decent Intelligence for some skills.
OneWinged4ngel 12-03-06, 03:17 AM	Hmmmm, alright, I guess I'll leave the multiplying thing unchanged until there's more playtesting. However, in looking at the SRD, a question has come up: A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. So... does this only refer to extra damage dice? I'm having trouble finding clarification on exactly what is and what is not multiplied.
Optimator 12-03-06, 03:34 AM	This is the dumbest revision of a class I've ever seen! :rant:
OneWinged4ngel 12-03-06, 04:00 AM	This is the dumbest revision of a class I've ever seen! :rant: ...Huh, is that supposed to be a joke?
Endless_Helix 12-03-06, 11:40 AM	The only thing that I see that's out of balance with the rest of the class is the charging smite option in the combat styles. It doesn't seem to scale like the other abilities... Perhaps the first level could be based off of Powerful Charge, then the charging smite varient, Some other ability and then Heedless Charge (like the one in Shock Trooper Trooper), advancing at the same rate your ardent bastion style does. Also, Perhaps going a little slower on the smites, like a max of 3 per encounter would be a good idea. Also, how does this interact with Sapphire Smite from MoI? Over all, it's quite strong and is a sort of "Party of one" character. It can heal and dish out alot of damage. I'm not sold on adding in that powerful of a spell progression, unfortunately. I'd put something more in line with the Ranger, because as it stands now it is way more powerful than most of the core combat classes.
Seerow 12-03-06, 12:25 PM	Over all, it's quite strong and is a sort of "Party of one" character. It can heal and dish out alot of damage. I'm not sold on adding in that powerful of a spell progression, unfortunately. I'd put something more in line with the Ranger, because as it stands now it is way more powerful than most of the core combat classes. The base Paladin shares the Ranger's spell progression. Rest assured when I get around to redoing the Ranger, I'll be using that same spell progression for him. Because really, the spell progression for half casters as is -sucks-. You get almost no spells until you're level 15, and by that point the spells you're getting don't matter anymore. Seriously, at 13th level the base progression gives you THREE spells per day. Doesn't that strike you as terribly useless? The revised progression makes the entire progression more fluid, giving you spels when they count, without too drastic of a change to the end result. It's really what the half-caster progression should have looked like from the start. As for the core combat classes, I don't care, because the core combat classes suck, which is the idea behind this revision and my Fighter revision (found in the Fighter Discussion Thread v3.0 on the classes forum), and any future revisions I work on involving the combat classes.
OneWinged4ngel 12-03-06, 12:28 PM	The only thing that I see that's out of balance with the rest of the class is the charging smite option in the combat styles. It doesn't seem to scale like the other abilities... Perhaps the first level could be based off of Powerful Charge, then the charging smite varient, Some other ability and then Heedless Charge (like the one in Shock Trooper Trooper), advancing at the same rate your ardent bastion style does. Also, Perhaps going a little slower on the smites, like a max of 3 per encounter would be a good idea. The reason Charging Smite stayed the same was basically thus: Special Mount basically stayed the same, and Charging Smite was a replacement for it. At the time, I only planned on adding one new spec (Argent Bastion) to make the sword 'n' board pally more viable (Now I intend to add a TWF and Leadership spec). And... Charging Smite is darn good. It makes you into a charging cruise missile of doom on its own :). However, the idea of changing it around to be a 5-8-11-15 spec like the others (Special Mount, Argent Bastion, Divine Cross, Whatever-I-Name-Leadership) has been knocked around a bit, and is still a possibility that is being considered. Also, how does this interact with Sapphire Smite from MoI? I don't have Magic of Incarnum, so I can't say. If I get to see Sapphire Smite, I'll give my opinion. Over all, it's quite strong and is a sort of "Party of one" character. It can heal and dish out alot of damage. I'm not sold on adding in that powerful of a spell progression, unfortunately. I'd put something more in line with the Ranger, because as it stands now it is way more powerful than most of the core combat classes. I'm not trying to balance against the core combat classes... I want to balance against Tome of Battle classes. And like Seerow said, the half-caster spell progression kinda sucks.
kilroo 12-03-06, 12:44 PM	I'm not trying to balance against the core combat classes... I want to balance against Tome of Battle classes. Your fighter oughta be interesting.
Seerow 12-03-06, 12:49 PM	Your fighter oughta be interesting. Once again, check out my Fighter, in the Fighter Discussion v3.0 thread over in the classes forum. It is very interesting.
kilroo 12-03-06, 08:16 PM	Ah. Sorry, missed that before.
Optimator 12-04-06, 12:34 AM	...Huh, is that supposed to be a joke? Yes.
Eyeless Blond 12-04-06, 01:29 AM	Hmm... I suppose we have a different view of what's broken. I tend to think of "broken" as: OMG we can't do ANYTHING because this character KILLS EVERYTHING! 54 damage is a lot, but you've got to charge (which is easy to stop) and you've got to hit (AC isn't too hard to get).Well, if you think about it the change from X/day to X/encounter is a multiplier in itself, depending on the number of encounters you'll find in a day. Allowing this to stack with all the other multipliers normally associated with a charging smiter can be bad, to say the least. Also, I'm betting that part of the reason smite multiplication was one of the main things you looked at in a paladin is because it was essentially the only thing the PH Paladin could do. This guy gets lots more bonuses in many other places than the PH Paladin, so Smite alone doesn't need to make up so much of the slack.
Optimator 12-04-06, 03:23 PM	Also, I'm betting that part of the reason smite multiplication was one of the main things you looked at in a paladin is because it was essentially the only thing the PH Paladin could do. This guy gets lots more bonuses in many other places than the PH Paladin, so Smite alone doesn't need to make up so much of the slack. For sure.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-04-06, 03:50 PM	I just wanted to tell you that I read through your revised Paladin class and I like it, a lot. A lot cooler then the standard one. The lvl 20 ability in particular is awesome(the image actually gave me goosebumps!).
OneWinged4ngel 12-04-06, 11:39 PM	Thank you :)