Break this feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Break this feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
celloshane
07-10-05, 05:32 PM So I've been helping Catra create feat on the Skills and Feats board. (Click here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=458041) to see the thread.) We've been chopping it down into something reasonable, but I still have concerns about the power level of this feat. Since the CO board has all the skillz, I figured this would be the best testing range to see just how broken this feat is. Here is Trail of Blood in it's current form:

Trail of Blood
prereqs: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Run, BAB +6, WIS 13, DEX 17
Benefit: When you use the charge action, you may make a full attack during your movement splitting the attacks between opponents within reach as you move. You must move 5 feet between each attack, and may only make one attack against each opponent. You gain the +2 attack bonus from charging only against the opponent you specify as the target of your charge.
When you use Trail of Blood you may move only up to your full speed, and you forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as Cleave or the Haste spell). Using Trail of Blood is a full round action.

I'm most concerned that the feat will end up overshadowing Dervish Dance. As soon as I see how much havok you guys can wreak though, I'll have a better idea of whether the feat needs more limitations or should simply be scrapped. So go ahead, hit me with the insanity :gah:
Particle
07-10-05, 05:54 PM http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5436939

You may want to look at this build. Remove the mounted feats, add in this feat, and you have a charger that kills his first target, and is able to attack some more. Is it exactly a 5foot step, or is a jump allowed? And is it additional to Spring Attack, e.g. can I move after having attacked the last opponent? If both yes->omg
if the last yes->the lancer even better, full attacks without fear of retribution

Thats my first idea, Frenzied berserker came to mind to.
A Goliath build might work too, add in Knockback and rampaging bullrush (and all prereqs), and you can trip up to 4 opponents per turn, will charging and making good damage trough leap Attack. Im too lazy to make biuld, tough.
celloshane
07-10-05, 11:26 PM To the best of my knowledge you are allowed to jump during a charge, and as it's currently written the feet only requires you to move 5 feet, not take a 5 foot step. (although that gives me another idea for a way to phrase the feat)

You are not making a Spring Attack, so at no point do you gain it's benefits. Spring Attack simply seemed a fitting prereq.

That Goliath does sound pretty brutal, I'll have to kick around numbers and see what happens. I was mostly concerned with somebody finding a way to keep multiple opponents flat footed in combination with Sneak Attack and this feat.
calypso
07-11-05, 12:54 AM To the best of my knowledge you are allowed to jump during a charge, and as it's currently written the feet only requires you to move 5 feet, not take a 5 foot step. (although that gives me another idea for a way to phrase the feat)

Correct, charging requires a straight, unobstructed path. Acrobatic Charge (a special ability of Duelist and Swashbuckler, among others) allows you to jump/tumble during a charge.

Calypso
jaerad
07-12-05, 01:09 PM :bump:
lostone
07-12-05, 02:07 PM Any of the ubercharger builds would salivate at the thought of their DM allowing your homebrew feat. :D
DisposableHero_
07-12-05, 03:48 PM Psionic Lion's Charge could be used in conjunction with this feat to grant 2 full attacks in one round, one on the way, one at the end.

I'm sure Battle Jump, Shadow Pounce, and their ilk could do some sickening things with it.

A Thri-Kreen Fighter2/PsyWar2/Ranger2/Dervish10 with this feat and the savage species multiweapon fighting chain could use it with a Dorje of Psionic Lion's Charge and 1000 cuts to erase a metric ton of enemies in short order.
Tempest Stormwind
07-12-05, 04:36 PM Correct, charging requires a straight, unobstructed path. Acrobatic Charge (a special ability of Duelist and Swashbuckler, among others) allows you to jump/tumble during a charge.

Calypso
FAQ disagrees with you.

Can my character make a jumping charge attack, either
with a long jump or a high jump? Do I need the feats Fleet of Foot or Psionic Charge? If I can make a high jump as
part of a charge, can I use it in conjunction with Battle
Jump?
You can make a long jump as part of a charge. You must
still follow all the normal rules for making a charge, such as
moving in a straight line on the battle grid. This tactic can let
you avoid some of the normal restrictions against charging. If a
square of difficult terrain is between you and your charge
target, you might be able to jump over it with a long jump. (The
fact that your jump means that your movement isn’t a perfectly
straight line doesn’t make the charge illegal—you’re still
moving in a straight line as far as the battle grid is concerned,
and the jump isn’t really changing your direction.)
Making a high jump as part of a charge is trickier. It’s hard
to imagine a significant high jump that doesn’t change your
direction; after all, you’re now moving vertically rather than
laterally. Furthermore, if you have to slow your movement at
any point of the charge, you can’t make the charge. For
instance, if you make a high jump toward a ledge as part of a
charge, then have to pull yourself up to the ledge before
continuing, that’s not a charge, it’s a move or a double move.
It’s the same for the “hop up” maneuver described on page 77
in the Player’s Handbook: Since it counts as 10 feet of
movement, you can’t perform such a maneuver as part of a
charge.
Fleet of Foot (found in the Player’s Guide to Faerūn) and
Psionic Charge (from the Expanded Psionics Handbook) might
make performing a high jump as part of a charge a little easier.
Both feats allow a single change in direction of up to 90
degrees during the charge, which should be sufficient to allow
you to make a high jump as part of a charge. Neither feat
allows you to ignore the restrictions on slowed movement
during a charge.
If you’re capable of making a high jump that brings you at
least 5 feet above an enemy, you could employ the Battle Jump
feat (from Unapproachable East) without having to start at a
higher location. Of course, that would require a Jump check
result of at least 40 for a Medium opponent, so it’s out of reach of most characters. You’d also have to make the Jump check
from adjacent to your foe, so it would provoke attacks of
opportunity (since you’re moving upward out of a threatened
square). All in all, it sounds like a pretty tricky maneuver, but
cinematically very exciting indeed.

Booyah.

And I also was thinking about the thri-kreen dervish approach, although mine included damage multipliers a la the Lancer or the UberERcharger. What makes this so lethal isn't so much the full-attack, though -- it's treating the attack as a charge.

An easy way to help nerf this enough for the CO guys to not have an evilgasm at it would be to simply say that the intermediate attacks (those made before the end of your movement) do not count as charge attacks, although you still get the -2 AC. That is, they do not deal double damage with a Valorous weapon, they do not get the bonus damage from Leap Attack (if you do the hop-skip-jump between opponents), and they don't get the +2 attack. You already have the "only the target gets the +2" thing, but an elaboration on that would be a good start.

A possible variant would simply be an extension of Spring Attack -- that is, you are able to move during a full attack. My suggestion is to modify the movement caveat of this special Spring Attack to "You must move at least 10' before and after any attack made this way, and you cannot reenter any square you have occupied during this round."
UMiskatonic
07-12-05, 04:42 PM There is a spycraft feat by the same name. It seems pretty balanced, and it works similarly to supreme cleave, but you can go farther. I've played with that one, and it seems balanced.
catharz
07-12-05, 05:29 PM This doesn't seem at all unbalanced to me, although (of course) certain cavaliers (and other chargers) may be able to get ungodly damage (but they can do that anyway). The # of feats needed somewhat precludes combining this with the best of mounted combat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celloshane 07-10-05, 05:32 PM	So I've been helping Catra create feat on the Skills and Feats board. (Click here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=458041) to see the thread.) We've been chopping it down into something reasonable, but I still have concerns about the power level of this feat. Since the CO board has all the skillz, I figured this would be the best testing range to see just how broken this feat is. Here is Trail of Blood in it's current form: Trail of Blood prereqs: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Run, BAB +6, WIS 13, DEX 17 Benefit: When you use the charge action, you may make a full attack during your movement splitting the attacks between opponents within reach as you move. You must move 5 feet between each attack, and may only make one attack against each opponent. You gain the +2 attack bonus from charging only against the opponent you specify as the target of your charge. When you use Trail of Blood you may move only up to your full speed, and you forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as Cleave or the Haste spell). Using Trail of Blood is a full round action. I'm most concerned that the feat will end up overshadowing Dervish Dance. As soon as I see how much havok you guys can wreak though, I'll have a better idea of whether the feat needs more limitations or should simply be scrapped. So go ahead, hit me with the insanity :gah:
Particle 07-10-05, 05:54 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5436939 You may want to look at this build. Remove the mounted feats, add in this feat, and you have a charger that kills his first target, and is able to attack some more. Is it exactly a 5foot step, or is a jump allowed? And is it additional to Spring Attack, e.g. can I move after having attacked the last opponent? If both yes->omg if the last yes->the lancer even better, full attacks without fear of retribution Thats my first idea, Frenzied berserker came to mind to. A Goliath build might work too, add in Knockback and rampaging bullrush (and all prereqs), and you can trip up to 4 opponents per turn, will charging and making good damage trough leap Attack. Im too lazy to make biuld, tough.
celloshane 07-10-05, 11:26 PM	To the best of my knowledge you are allowed to jump during a charge, and as it's currently written the feet only requires you to move 5 feet, not take a 5 foot step. (although that gives me another idea for a way to phrase the feat) You are not making a Spring Attack, so at no point do you gain it's benefits. Spring Attack simply seemed a fitting prereq. That Goliath does sound pretty brutal, I'll have to kick around numbers and see what happens. I was mostly concerned with somebody finding a way to keep multiple opponents flat footed in combination with Sneak Attack and this feat.
calypso 07-11-05, 12:54 AM	To the best of my knowledge you are allowed to jump during a charge, and as it's currently written the feet only requires you to move 5 feet, not take a 5 foot step. (although that gives me another idea for a way to phrase the feat) Correct, charging requires a straight, unobstructed path. Acrobatic Charge (a special ability of Duelist and Swashbuckler, among others) allows you to jump/tumble during a charge. Calypso
jaerad 07-12-05, 01:09 PM	:bump:
lostone 07-12-05, 02:07 PM	Any of the ubercharger builds would salivate at the thought of their DM allowing your homebrew feat. :D
DisposableHero_ 07-12-05, 03:48 PM	Psionic Lion's Charge could be used in conjunction with this feat to grant 2 full attacks in one round, one on the way, one at the end. I'm sure Battle Jump, Shadow Pounce, and their ilk could do some sickening things with it. A Thri-Kreen Fighter2/PsyWar2/Ranger2/Dervish10 with this feat and the savage species multiweapon fighting chain could use it with a Dorje of Psionic Lion's Charge and 1000 cuts to erase a metric ton of enemies in short order.
Tempest Stormwind 07-12-05, 04:36 PM	Correct, charging requires a straight, unobstructed path. Acrobatic Charge (a special ability of Duelist and Swashbuckler, among others) allows you to jump/tumble during a charge. Calypso FAQ disagrees with you. Can my character make a jumping charge attack, either with a long jump or a high jump? Do I need the feats Fleet of Foot or Psionic Charge? If I can make a high jump as part of a charge, can I use it in conjunction with Battle Jump? You can make a long jump as part of a charge. You must still follow all the normal rules for making a charge, such as moving in a straight line on the battle grid. This tactic can let you avoid some of the normal restrictions against charging. If a square of difficult terrain is between you and your charge target, you might be able to jump over it with a long jump. (The fact that your jump means that your movement isn’t a perfectly straight line doesn’t make the charge illegal—you’re still moving in a straight line as far as the battle grid is concerned, and the jump isn’t really changing your direction.) Making a high jump as part of a charge is trickier. It’s hard to imagine a significant high jump that doesn’t change your direction; after all, you’re now moving vertically rather than laterally. Furthermore, if you have to slow your movement at any point of the charge, you can’t make the charge. For instance, if you make a high jump toward a ledge as part of a charge, then have to pull yourself up to the ledge before continuing, that’s not a charge, it’s a move or a double move. It’s the same for the “hop up” maneuver described on page 77 in the Player’s Handbook: Since it counts as 10 feet of movement, you can’t perform such a maneuver as part of a charge. Fleet of Foot (found in the Player’s Guide to Faerūn) and Psionic Charge (from the Expanded Psionics Handbook) might make performing a high jump as part of a charge a little easier. Both feats allow a single change in direction of up to 90 degrees during the charge, which should be sufficient to allow you to make a high jump as part of a charge. Neither feat allows you to ignore the restrictions on slowed movement during a charge. If you’re capable of making a high jump that brings you at least 5 feet above an enemy, you could employ the Battle Jump feat (from Unapproachable East) without having to start at a higher location. Of course, that would require a Jump check result of at least 40 for a Medium opponent, so it’s out of reach of most characters. You’d also have to make the Jump check from adjacent to your foe, so it would provoke attacks of opportunity (since you’re moving upward out of a threatened square). All in all, it sounds like a pretty tricky maneuver, but cinematically very exciting indeed. Booyah. And I also was thinking about the thri-kreen dervish approach, although mine included damage multipliers a la the Lancer or the UberERcharger. What makes this so lethal isn't so much the full-attack, though -- it's treating the attack as a charge. An easy way to help nerf this enough for the CO guys to not have an evilgasm at it would be to simply say that the intermediate attacks (those made before the end of your movement) do not count as charge attacks, although you still get the -2 AC. That is, they do not deal double damage with a Valorous weapon, they do not get the bonus damage from Leap Attack (if you do the hop-skip-jump between opponents), and they don't get the +2 attack. You already have the "only the target gets the +2" thing, but an elaboration on that would be a good start. A possible variant would simply be an extension of Spring Attack -- that is, you are able to move during a full attack. My suggestion is to modify the movement caveat of this special Spring Attack to "You must move at least 10' before and after any attack made this way, and you cannot reenter any square you have occupied during this round."
UMiskatonic 07-12-05, 04:42 PM	There is a spycraft feat by the same name. It seems pretty balanced, and it works similarly to supreme cleave, but you can go farther. I've played with that one, and it seems balanced.
catharz 07-12-05, 05:29 PM	This doesn't seem at all unbalanced to me, although (of course) certain cavaliers (and other chargers) may be able to get ungodly damage (but they can do that anyway). The # of feats needed somewhat precludes combining this with the best of mounted combat.