Post/Author/DateTime	Post
IThoughtISawA... 04-11-05, 09:41 PM	Dwarf Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/ Master Transmogrist 10/DeepWarden 2 1) Wiz 1- scribe scroll, extend spell 2) Wiz 2 3) Wiz 3- iron will 4) Wiz 4 5) Wiz 5- persistent spell 6) Inc 1- eschew materials, quicken spell 7) Inc 2 8) Inc 3 9) MaT 1- energy substitution (lightning) 10) MaT 2 11) MaT 3 12) MaT 4-practiced Spellcaster 13) MaT 5 14) MaT 6 15) MaT 7- endurance 16) MaT8 17) MaT 9 18) MaT 10- multiattack 19) DW 1 20) DW 2 Items Needed- Ring of spellstoring, greater That’s it, ONE item Here’s how it works- Get your Wizard/Druid/Cleric with the animal domain friend to cast Shapechange into your ring (or cast it yourself off a scroll), then “cast” it on yourself (yes, the item lets YOU cast the spell, so it’s extended). Use your Incantatrix Metamagic effect ability to make it Persistent (yeah, it’s a high spellcraft check, but its doable). Assume the form of, well, anything that works for you, using your infinite variety ability to grab a Shambling Mound’s Immunity to Electricity Ex quality. Start casting lightning spells at yourself (lightning sub’ed flaming sphere is your best bet). Gain 1d4 + points of Con a round! Over the 18 rounds your Sphere lasts, it gives you, on average, 2.5 X 18= 45 points of Con, which translates into an unnamed (and constantly increasing) +22 AC from Deepwarden’s Stone Warden ability. After, say, 30 minutes of this (and 10 “lightning” speheres), you have an AC of: 230- 10 (base) +220 (Con +450). Now, this AC is without any sort of animated shields, defending weapons, not counting the base forms Con Mod (various dragons, war troll, etc) or natural armor. Obviosuily not a full build (items, ability scores, etc) but if the base premise works out, it can be done. ~Thoughts?
Otto the Bugbear 04-11-05, 09:43 PM	This has been done already. I can't remember who did it, but I"m thinking either JosephKell or Caelic. I could be wrong about that though. Good idea, still. edit: jeremymc has come forward as the originator. Credit where credit is due you know. Cheers Otto :)
Corollax 04-11-05, 10:27 PM	worth noting that you could do this with shifter, too. especially if you had a herd of shocker lizards. Red Mage (8-bit theater) goes nicely with this, I mean...afterall, when you've got a 200 AC... I'll be switching my AC and Divine Ranks, please?
Tempest Stormwind 04-11-05, 10:42 PM	It was Caelic, and it was done a bit simpler than this.
Arismir 04-11-05, 10:57 PM	Wait lemme get this straight. You have a Con of 450?
Moon-Lancer 04-11-05, 11:17 PM	couldent you just do this as a dwarf druid??? with 2 levels of deep warden?
Tempest Stormwind 04-11-05, 11:24 PM	Wait lemme get this straight. You have a Con of 450? Actually, it's infinite. It's based on gaining the Immunity to Electricity thing a Shambling Mound has, followed by 2 levels of Deepwarden and then as much electricity as you can manage (like, say, a ring that casts Electric Jolt on you every round).
Jeremymc 04-12-05, 12:51 AM	Not to pester, but I think I was the first person to think up that Shambling mound/Deepwarden trick. Unless no one bothered to tell me that Caelic had done it previously. Oddly enough, there's an even BETTER build, capable of generating both AC over 200, and an INFINTE NUMBER OF SPELLCASTING CLONES. Far more broken. Gear up your MasTran to cast spells in plant form with whatever feats you need. Now, in shambling mound form, take the black pudding's "split" feature. Now, stab yourself with a "shocking" harpoon. Every round you do, you both gain 1d4 con points, and split into separate clones. Now, the fun part is that the two puddings have half the current hit points of the original, but not half the TOTAL hit points. So you're fully capable of being healed up to the maximum your Constitution will allow. And since your constitution is unlimited, your hP is unlimited. And since your HP is unlimited, the number of times you can split is unlimited. etc. etc. Infinite spellcasting clones. MOST. BROKEN. THING. EVER. IN. THE. HISTORY. OF. THIS. GAME.
NineInchNall 04-12-05, 01:22 AM	You gotta love the Master Transmogrifist, eh? :P
Tempest Stormwind 04-12-05, 02:04 AM	Jeremy: Were you the one who tried it with the Symbiote template? Caelic's was a revision of that one, and his version was a fair bit sleeker. Oh, and that trick won't work. Split produces two identical black puddings, not two identical creatures. So, when you Split, you either produce two identical black puddings (as the monster manual entry) or you produce yourself and one black pudding. Good idea, though.
lostone 04-12-05, 10:35 AM	Don't know if it will work (IDHTBWM) but here's an idea I had thought of. Play a shambling mound (ECL 14). Take the Stoneblessed prestige class (the one in Races of Stone that lets you count as a dwarf). Then take the two levels of deepwarden. So you got the infinite con and AC potential. Then use a shocking needle (or tiny dagger or other low damage dealing item) to stab yourself as needed. Someone had posted somewhere of using a shocking masterslaying weapon, but I don't see why masterslaying is needed when you can just intentionally beat on yourself with electricity damage. But definitely, Kudo's to Jeremymc for coming up with this in the first place.
Zemyla 04-12-05, 11:57 AM	Tempest: So you're saying that if a fiendish black pudding was split, you'd wind up with a normal black pudding as at least one of them?
lostone 04-12-05, 12:11 PM	Tempest: So you're saying that if a fiendish black pudding was split, you'd wind up with a normal black pudding as at least one of them?I can see an evil DM killing a master transmogrifist who takes split, because the transmogrifist splits into two mindless black puddings... :devil:Split (Ex): Slashing and piercing weapons deal no damage to a black pudding. Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A pudding with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hit points.As written, it would be wise to run this by your DM before attempting, it could backfire. :D
The Skald 04-12-05, 12:41 PM	Jeremymc wrote: Oddly enough, there's an even BETTER build, capable of generating both AC over 200, and an INFINTE NUMBER OF SPELLCASTING CLONES. Far more broken. Gear up your MasTran to cast spells in plant form with whatever feats you need. Now, in shambling mound form, take the black pudding's "split" feature. Now, stab yourself with a "shocking" harpoon. Every round you do, you both gain 1d4 con points, and split into separate clones. Now, the fun part is that the two puddings have half the current hit points of the original, but not half the TOTAL hit points. So you're fully capable of being healed up to the maximum your Constitution will allow. And since your constitution is unlimited, your hP is unlimited. And since your HP is unlimited, the number of times you can split is unlimited. etc. etc. Infinite spellcasting clones. MOST. BROKEN. THING. EVER. IN. THE. HISTORY. OF. THIS. GAME. :heehee Jeremymc wrote: "I'm Drizzt. I'm cool. Look at me." - Drizzt do'Urden. :rofl: The Skald
Jeremymc 04-12-05, 02:42 PM	Oh, and that trick won't work. Split produces two identical black puddings, not two identical creatures. So, when you Split, you either produce two identical black puddings (as the monster manual entry) or you produce yourself and one black pudding. Good idea, though. Well, in this case the RAW was designed long before the MasTran was. Therefore, it couldn't possibly have been meant to be interpreted that way. Your version requires that an Extraordinary ability duplicate a magical or supernatural shapechange ability - which is impossible in the game. This is ground on which RAW doesn't really apply. For instance, if you interperet the rest of the paragraph by RAW, it implies that every time the MasTran splits, his EQUIPMENT is DUPLICATED. (the word is "Identical"). Clearly, this is completely unreasonable. These are all DM calls, and when you actually play them, must be made with a modicum of RAI judgement. OR not even RAI, more like common sense.
Conan 04-12-05, 04:31 PM	Don't know if it will work (IDHTBWM) but here's an idea I had thought of. Play a shambling mound (ECL 14). Take the Stoneblessed prestige class (the one in Races of Stone that lets you count as a dwarf). Then take the two levels of deepwarden... Sorry lostone but it won't work due to the requisites for Stoneblessed. Stoneblessed Requirements Creature type: Giant, Humanoid, or Monstrous Humanoid. MM states Shambling Mound to be a Large plant therefore ineligible for Stoneblessed.
lostone 04-12-05, 06:55 PM	Yeah, I looked it up when I got home. Too bad, would have been easy.
Caelic 04-12-05, 07:46 PM	Just to make sure things are clear: Jeremy did, indeed, hit on this combination first. If I remember right, he originally suggested a Shambling Mound with levels of Stoneblessed and then levels of Deepwarden. I came up with it independently--my plan was to go Druid5/MoMF7/Deepwarden2--but by the time I did, his post was already up--so I just built on what he'd already done. Credit where credit is due. And Jeremy--that was kinda my point in pointing out the language of Split in the first place. This is a situation where you can't argue RAW, because the RAW outcome is nonsensical. At the same time, I think creating exact duplicates of yourself is also pretty far away from the RAI. It'll come down to a judgement call, and frankly, I don't see most DMs allowing most of what we're discussing here without at least a quart of Jack Daniels. ;)
Caelic 04-12-05, 08:18 PM	Duplicate post deleted
NateNate 04-12-05, 08:50 PM	I just want to point out that the trick doesn't work at all. Deepwarden has a requirement of Race: Dwarf. Under the effects of a Polymorph (or an effect which copies Polymorph) you lose your original type and subtype and gain the creature type of the assumed form. Since you'd no longer be a Humanoid (Dwarf), you would no longer gain the benefits of the Deepwarden's class features because you would cease to meet the requirements. Edit: Rashomon, both Shapechange and Polymorph (and Wild Shape) change your creature type into that of the assumed form, in place of your original type and subtypes. I'd quote the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) on that, but I don't want to find and copy-paste all three sections.
Rashomon 04-12-05, 08:54 PM	No, you don't. You retain your original type and gain the indicated creature's type in addition to your original type.
Jeremymc 04-12-05, 09:14 PM	It'll come down to a judgement call, and frankly, I don't see most DMs allowing most of what we're discussing here without at least a quart of Jack Daniels. ;) Hmm... Well, the DM has to allow SOMETHING. He can't just say "I don't wanna make a decision, so screw you, player". Besides which, this is what the MasTran DOES. He imagines crazy crap and turns himself into it!! An ant with tentacles!!! A Roc with crazy elephant tusks!!! Some sort of wierd smelling nymph fungus thingy... I dunno. The way I see it, the most sensible thing a DM can allow is: a) Allow that extraordinary abilities can operate with the new base form as they operated with the old base form, as close to RAW as RAW will allow (i.e. requiring that a form using the Mind Flayer's brain extract actually HAVE tentacles - which is pretty RAW). b) Not allow extraordinary abilities to do extremely magical things... like duplicating equipment, or changing you back into a pudding. Because as sure as my name is Jeremy, if my DM forces me to revert from Titan form to 2 pudding form, then I'm gonna come back in his face with my "Infinite ring of wishes pudding duplication" strategy, and wipe everyone out.
ShiverTheBard 04-12-05, 09:24 PM	Have some fun with this. Take 5 levels of Kensai. Infinite Reflex Saves and Fort because you can replace Reflex saves with Concentration checks. Add 8 levels of Rokugan Ninja, you gain bonus to move speed equal to 5xCon mod. This gives infinite move speed and some SA progression. If I move at infinite speed aren't you always flat-footed? Hmmm..... Is infinite speed enough to closeline someone and remove their head?
Jeremymc 04-12-05, 10:23 PM	And doesn't your mass increase the closer you get to the speed of light? Wouldn't that clothesline be delivered with quadrillions of megatons of force?
Moon-Lancer 04-12-05, 11:02 PM	lol. looseing a prc becuse your type changes. Clearly another reasion wildshape needs a rewrite, or you are just wrong. Anyway that is so raw that my head hurts (lol parden the pun)
Tempest Stormwind 04-13-05, 12:57 AM	And doesn't your mass increase the closer you get to the speed of light? Wouldn't that clothesline be delivered with quadrillions of megatons of force? There's a lot of weird stuff that comes into play with relativistic speeds... Things getting shorter, time taking longer to pass, mass increasing, volume decreasing... Of course, if you have an infinite speed then you move at the speed of light, which is a cosmic speed limit (it should work out to about... 1,181,102,362 squares, by the way) unless your campaign doesn't have such a thing. However, anything moving at the speed of light is effectively massless -- photons, for instance. It takes infinite energy to accelerate anything massive to the speed of light, and that's where the problem comes in. There's only so much energy in any given tavern meal. I doubt any character can end up with enough energy to pull this off, even if they no longer need to eat. That's the problem here, rather than the speed. You'd starve yourself to death before you hit lightspeed. Of course, there's such a thing as relativistic momentum.... My money's on a swift decapitation if you were to clothesline someone while running that fast. Or, more accurately, a decaptitation to which the words "chunky salsa" and "blast radius" apply. Hmmm... maybe the one class that has infinite power as a class feature (Metamind) could be somehow used here? Move so fast that the one-minute duration on Font of Power is effectively years, without spending any power points on Temporal Acceleration? Or, are you moving so fast that Temporal Acceleration is already effectively active? Hmm....
Caelic 04-13-05, 04:16 PM	Offhand, I'd suggest that allowing an ability like "Split" to effectively become an infinite Clone spell IS an "extremely magical thing"--and I suspect that most DMs are going to smack down any player trying it. Nor do I see that as a bad thing; good DMing and permissive DMing are not synonymous...and are often mutually exclusive.
Caelic 04-13-05, 04:19 PM	There's only so much energy in any given tavern meal. I doubt any character can end up with enough energy to pull this off, even if they no longer need to eat. That's the problem here, rather than the speed. You'd starve yourself to death before you hit lightspeed. Of course, there's such a thing as relativistic momentum.... My money's on a swift decapitation if you were to clothesline someone while running that fast. Or, more accurately, a decaptitation to which the words "chunky salsa" and "blast radius" apply. Actually, we're talking "Explosion capable of annihilating the planet" if matter of any significant size collides at near-lightspeed. Of course, since the character doesn't have any special immunity to the effects of his own speed, he might just need those near-infinite Con bonuses just to survive. :)
The Thing in the Night 04-13-05, 07:15 PM	And that is why we only apply real world physics to DnD in jest. Whenever a situation comes up that requires such calculation, you know it's broken.
Tempest Stormwind 04-13-05, 07:48 PM	And that is why we only apply real world physics to DnD in jest. Whenever a situation comes up that requires such calculation, you know it's broken. And if I could get the sblock tag working, I'd SO sig that. :D Caelic: Aye, I never said WHO the chunky salsa described. Running Jack used to have two arms and a whole torso, you see, before he had this bright idea of lightspeed-clotheslining Topless Harry over there....
Jeremymc 04-13-05, 11:14 PM	Actually, we're talking "Explosion capable of annihilating the planet" if matter of any significant size collides at near-lightspeed. Of course, since the character doesn't have any special immunity to the effects of his own speed, he might just need those near-infinite Con bonuses just to survive. :) Is that slashing or piercing damage? Or would "annihilating the planet" count as "bludgeoning". Yah... probably "bludgeoning".
RadicalTaoist 04-14-05, 11:36 AM	It'll come down to a judgement call, and frankly, I don't see most DMs allowing most of what we're discussing here without at least a quart of Jack Daniels. ;) After he's read what's in this thread? That can be arranged :D