Breaking Iajitsu Master [Archive] - Wizards Community

Breaking Iajitsu Master [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
1hitparry
11-11-06, 10:07 AM I keep hearing about how broken the Iaijitsu Master, but I haven't figured how it works. I was wondering if someone knew how? People have tried to explain it to me, but I don't see how it's exceedingly broken, yet.
Repeekluos
11-11-06, 10:15 AM You deal extra damage based on a skill check. If you achieve the highest, which is 50+ you deal an extra 9d6.
The "broken part, is you get to add your charisma to each damage die at 5th level of the class. With a high charisma, you can catch someone flat footed, and roll your Iaijutsu focus check, you get a 50 (high level?), and you have a 22 charisma.
That's, 1d10+str+9d6+54
Seems pretty good for a skill check. It gets even crazier, the higher your cha is.
Michigan
11-11-06, 10:45 AM 1.5 x Str, actually, as the katana is a two-handed weapon.
Repeekluos
11-11-06, 10:56 AM Katana is a one handed exotic weapon.
You may choose to use it in two hands to apply 1.5str.
Katana, are just bastard swords.
1hitparry
11-11-06, 11:39 AM Ohhh okay. I thought that the Iaijitsu Master was super broken to the point where he dealt that kind of damage anytime. Not like that damage is anything to sneeze at, though. And I would rule that you'd use the 1.0 str modifier, and not the 1.5, because I think that flat footed attack is the sword draw attack, which means you can only do it in one hand (in real life anyway).
Repeekluos
11-11-06, 11:46 AM The Str dmg is minimal in most IM builds anyway.
There is a way to do it to almost every opponent every battle, but there is a lot of debate on how long it takes to sheath your weapon. Flick of the wrist does it pretty well, but only once per foe.
1hitparry
11-11-06, 11:53 AM I totally forgot IM get weapon finesse. Did they have improved feint in 3.0? Because that would make the IM cazy.
Michigan
11-11-06, 11:55 AM The draw is one-handed, but it is possible to have both hands on the hilt when making the strike. It isn't easy, but I'd think an Iajitsu Master should be able to pull off any kata you can find written up in a Iaido book at Waldenbooks, y'know?

(And yes, I am aware the katana is a bastard sword, with an asian accent. Both are two-handed swords, that can also be used one handed. Given that the Kakita/Crane Clan techniques put all emphasis on use one sword, with two hands, I see no reason to to recommend it. It's +1 or +2 points of damage more... not a lot, but it is more.)
1hitparry
11-11-06, 11:58 AM Maybe you can power attack with two hands for crazy more damage?
Hiruma_Scout
11-11-06, 12:19 PM Iaijutsu Master Ninja for the "lol dice" against a human opponent.

"And then this guy appeared out of nowhere and cut the party wizard in half."
PhoenixInferno
11-11-06, 12:28 PM (And yes, I am aware the katana is a bastard sword, with an asian accent. Both are two-handed swords, that can also be used one handed. Given that the Kakita/Crane Clan techniques put all emphasis on use one sword, with two hands, I see no reason to to recommend it. It's +1 or +2 points of damage more... not a lot, but it is more.)Exotic Weapon Master would like to disagree with you...
psly4mne
11-11-06, 12:51 PM Instant flat-feet: just add Knee Striker (or Death from Below).

My favorite build:
Gnome Ftr 2/Warblade 3/Blade Bravo 1/Iaijutsu Master 5/Blade Bravo +9
Weapon Finesse
Underfoot Combat
Confound the Big Folk
Improved Trip
Goad
Improved Initiative
Quick Draw
Weapon Focus (Katana)
Combat Expertise
Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Dodge
Titan Fighting
Mobility
Elusive Target
Giantbane

Stance: Stonefoot Stance
Maneuvers Readied: Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Emerald Razor

Uses a Qnome Quickrazor (see CWar 154 for racial proficiency rule). Sheathing the quickrazor is part of the attack, so every attack on a full attack is a Iaijutsu attack. Tactics: use tactical feats to make stuff flat-footed, hit stuff very hard. Charismatically. And I almost forgot: be impossible to hit.

See Melee Killer Gnome
horndgod
11-11-06, 02:32 PM I know some people know this, but for others, remember, Iaijutsu Focus can only be used on a flatfooted opponent. There are ways of getting people flatfooted but feinting isn't one of them.
The_Shaman
11-11-06, 03:38 PM Well, s/he shouldn't have problems winning initiative. At least, an IM is supposed to be able to strike first, what with the iaijutsu and all :P .
aelryinth
11-11-06, 05:15 PM The other iajitsu issue was the whole multiple swords/draw multiple times schtick...carry three katanas, draw and cut with all of them in a suprise round.

Isn't there a Blurstrike or something enchantment from FR that renders opponents flat footed against your swing? That was another point of abuse.

Of course, iajitsu was never meant to be broken that way...it's really something only usable in a formal duel situation. The IM is supposed to be able to kill his foe in one hit...that is his schtick. However, if he fails to kill an enemy on the draw, he is far, far less dangerous in an open combat situation then many other builds.

Hence, the courtly fighter who manuvers his foe into a duel and kills him there, as opposed to a real battlefield.

==Aelryinth
The_Shaman
11-11-06, 05:37 PM It's Races of the Wild, if I remember correctly. So does a IM get no bonuses at all if they draw their weapon but the enemy is not flat-footed?
psly4mne
11-11-06, 05:39 PM The other iajitsu issue was the whole multiple swords/draw multiple times schtick...carry three katanas, draw and cut with all of them in a suprise round.Or the Gnome Quickrazor... sheathing a quickrazor after an attack is always a free action, so you can use just one weapon as normal, and get iaijutsu damage on every attack. Iaijutsu is in no way restricted to a katana.

Isn't there a Blurstrike or something enchantment from FR that renders opponents flat footed against your swing? That was another point of abuse.From Races of the Wild. It only works 10 rounds per day

Of course, iajitsu was never meant to be broken that way...it's really something only usable in a formal duel situation. The IM is supposed to be able to kill his foe in one hit...that is his schtick.Nothing is ever meant to be broken. But sometimes, it just happens.
Diplominator
11-11-06, 06:40 PM Nothing is ever meant to be broken. But sometimes, it just happens.

*CoughPlanarShephardCough*

Fine, you tell me what they were thinking.
psly4mne
11-11-06, 07:24 PM *CoughPlanarShephardCough*

Fine, you tell me what they were thinking.Let's make a planar-themed druid! It'll be flavorful! Yeah, but Wild Shape ties druids to the Material Plane cuz animals are basically from the Material. OK, we'll change it to tie them to their chosen plane. Let's make them turn into things from their plane. Instead of animals, they'll turn into magical beasts! And instead of elementals, they'll turn into... what's the equivalent of an elemental for other planes? Outsiders! And let's make turning into outsiders follow the same rules and turning into elementals. Except for gaining feats - that would be broken.
1hitparry
11-11-06, 08:39 PM It's Races of the Wild, if I remember correctly. So does a IM get no bonuses at all if they draw their weapon but the enemy is not flat-footed?
I think so. Otherwise the IM would just be super broken if you could do that damage against everyone.

And as for the carrying a bundle of katanas, I saw that somewhere else, but I don't see any ability that the IM (at least from OA) gets that lets him make free attacks by drawing his weapon.
Repeekluos
11-11-06, 08:43 PM I think so. Otherwise the IM would just be super broken if you could do that damage against everyone.

And as for the carrying a bundle of katanas, I saw that somewhere else, but I don't see any ability that the IM (at least from OA) gets that lets him make free attacks by drawing his weapon.

Not free attacks.
There is a feat called "Flick of the Wrist".
Complete warrior.
Pretty good for the build.
Diplominator
11-11-06, 08:51 PM Let's make a planar-themed druid! It'll be flavorful! Yeah, but Wild Shape ties druids to the Material Plane cuz animals are basically from the Material. OK, we'll change it to tie them to their chosen plane. Let's make them turn into things from their plane. Instead of animals, they'll turn into magical beasts! And instead of elementals, they'll turn into... what's the equivalent of an elemental for other planes? Outsiders! And let's make turning into outsiders follow the same rules and turning into elementals. Except for gaining feats - that would be broken.
Okay, fair enough. Still, they failed HARD.
1hitparry
11-11-06, 10:10 PM Not free attacks.
There is a feat called "Flick of the Wrist".
Complete warrior.
Pretty good for the build.

Isn't that 3.5? And isn't OA 3.0?
fnord
11-11-06, 10:50 PM Isn't that 3.5? And isn't OA 3.0?
Well, if you're talking about IM in 3.5, then you're mixing editions anyway. Flick of the Wrist was also in Song and Silence in 3.0, anyway.
Michigan
11-11-06, 11:04 PM Of course, 3.0 is suppossed to be 100% compatable with 3.5... although, I'd give my lucky d20 for an update to OA. The simplest way to "unbreak" the Iaijutsu Master is to require a katana be used, and then point-and-laugh when the player tries to carry three swords.

The dishonor! The shame to your clan! The hubris towards your ancestors!

An IM should be limited to doing his thing once per attack; he'll be a high level martial character anyway, and no slouch in a melee; but the iaijutsu strike technique is limited in scope.

BTW, with the IM's uberbonus to initiative, he's likely going to be going first... therefore his target will be flatfooted. At level ten, they can't even be suprised.
aelryinth
11-12-06, 12:02 AM The multiple swords was for successive iterative attacks. If he wins initiative on the first round, his opponent is still flat footed. So draw one sword after another with iajitsu rolls, and clean his clock.

Quickrazor. Sigh. Free actions to resheathe? Jeez.

===Aelryinth
Michigan
11-12-06, 12:28 AM Yes, but think how silly he looks. Four katanas? Sheesh.
tsuyoshikentsu
11-12-06, 12:59 AM Of course, 3.0 is suppossed to be 100% compatable with 3.5... although, I'd give my lucky d20 for an update to OA.Dragon #318. Lucky d20, please.
horndgod
11-12-06, 02:05 AM Or you can just strap a bandolier of daggers across your chest and take levels in Dervish.
borg2
11-12-06, 11:31 AM Just be aware a lot of people seem to nerf the skill check by requiring it to be a full round attack in their campaign (which also fits in with the historical side of the skill).
You are supposed to start "one step and one cut" distance from your opponent in a duel, which matches a 5' step and a full attack action.

Of course, things like catfolk and the catfolk pounce do a bit of an end run around this...

And there's quite a few ways to flat foot an opponent, flick of the wrist being the favourite, but things like a grease spell also work well...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
1hitparry 11-11-06, 10:07 AM	I keep hearing about how broken the Iaijitsu Master, but I haven't figured how it works. I was wondering if someone knew how? People have tried to explain it to me, but I don't see how it's exceedingly broken, yet.
Repeekluos 11-11-06, 10:15 AM	You deal extra damage based on a skill check. If you achieve the highest, which is 50+ you deal an extra 9d6. The "broken part, is you get to add your charisma to each damage die at 5th level of the class. With a high charisma, you can catch someone flat footed, and roll your Iaijutsu focus check, you get a 50 (high level?), and you have a 22 charisma. That's, 1d10+str+9d6+54 Seems pretty good for a skill check. It gets even crazier, the higher your cha is.
Michigan 11-11-06, 10:45 AM	1.5 x Str, actually, as the katana is a two-handed weapon.
Repeekluos 11-11-06, 10:56 AM	Katana is a one handed exotic weapon. You may choose to use it in two hands to apply 1.5str. Katana, are just bastard swords.
1hitparry 11-11-06, 11:39 AM	Ohhh okay. I thought that the Iaijitsu Master was super broken to the point where he dealt that kind of damage anytime. Not like that damage is anything to sneeze at, though. And I would rule that you'd use the 1.0 str modifier, and not the 1.5, because I think that flat footed attack is the sword draw attack, which means you can only do it in one hand (in real life anyway).
Repeekluos 11-11-06, 11:46 AM	The Str dmg is minimal in most IM builds anyway. There is a way to do it to almost every opponent every battle, but there is a lot of debate on how long it takes to sheath your weapon. Flick of the wrist does it pretty well, but only once per foe.
1hitparry 11-11-06, 11:53 AM	I totally forgot IM get weapon finesse. Did they have improved feint in 3.0? Because that would make the IM cazy.
Michigan 11-11-06, 11:55 AM	The draw is one-handed, but it is possible to have both hands on the hilt when making the strike. It isn't easy, but I'd think an Iajitsu Master should be able to pull off any kata you can find written up in a Iaido book at Waldenbooks, y'know? (And yes, I am aware the katana is a bastard sword, with an asian accent. Both are two-handed swords, that can also be used one handed. Given that the Kakita/Crane Clan techniques put all emphasis on use one sword, with two hands, I see no reason to to recommend it. It's +1 or +2 points of damage more... not a lot, but it is more.)
1hitparry 11-11-06, 11:58 AM	Maybe you can power attack with two hands for crazy more damage?
Hiruma_Scout 11-11-06, 12:19 PM	Iaijutsu Master Ninja for the "lol dice" against a human opponent. "And then this guy appeared out of nowhere and cut the party wizard in half."
PhoenixInferno 11-11-06, 12:28 PM	(And yes, I am aware the katana is a bastard sword, with an asian accent. Both are two-handed swords, that can also be used one handed. Given that the Kakita/Crane Clan techniques put all emphasis on use one sword, with two hands, I see no reason to to recommend it. It's +1 or +2 points of damage more... not a lot, but it is more.)Exotic Weapon Master would like to disagree with you...
psly4mne 11-11-06, 12:51 PM	Instant flat-feet: just add Knee Striker (or Death from Below). My favorite build: Gnome Ftr 2/Warblade 3/Blade Bravo 1/Iaijutsu Master 5/Blade Bravo +9 Weapon Finesse Underfoot Combat Confound the Big Folk Improved Trip Goad Improved Initiative Quick Draw Weapon Focus (Katana) Combat Expertise Weapon Focus (Rapier) Dodge Titan Fighting Mobility Elusive Target Giantbane Stance: Stonefoot Stance Maneuvers Readied: Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Emerald Razor Uses a Qnome Quickrazor (see CWar 154 for racial proficiency rule). Sheathing the quickrazor is part of the attack, so every attack on a full attack is a Iaijutsu attack. Tactics: use tactical feats to make stuff flat-footed, hit stuff very hard. Charismatically. And I almost forgot: be impossible to hit. See Melee Killer Gnome
horndgod 11-11-06, 02:32 PM	I know some people know this, but for others, remember, Iaijutsu Focus can only be used on a flatfooted opponent. There are ways of getting people flatfooted but feinting isn't one of them.
The_Shaman 11-11-06, 03:38 PM	Well, s/he shouldn't have problems winning initiative. At least, an IM is supposed to be able to strike first, what with the iaijutsu and all :P .
aelryinth 11-11-06, 05:15 PM	The other iajitsu issue was the whole multiple swords/draw multiple times schtick...carry three katanas, draw and cut with all of them in a suprise round. Isn't there a Blurstrike or something enchantment from FR that renders opponents flat footed against your swing? That was another point of abuse. Of course, iajitsu was never meant to be broken that way...it's really something only usable in a formal duel situation. The IM is supposed to be able to kill his foe in one hit...that is his schtick. However, if he fails to kill an enemy on the draw, he is far, far less dangerous in an open combat situation then many other builds. Hence, the courtly fighter who manuvers his foe into a duel and kills him there, as opposed to a real battlefield. ==Aelryinth
The_Shaman 11-11-06, 05:37 PM	It's Races of the Wild, if I remember correctly. So does a IM get no bonuses at all if they draw their weapon but the enemy is not flat-footed?
psly4mne 11-11-06, 05:39 PM	The other iajitsu issue was the whole multiple swords/draw multiple times schtick...carry three katanas, draw and cut with all of them in a suprise round.Or the Gnome Quickrazor... sheathing a quickrazor after an attack is always a free action, so you can use just one weapon as normal, and get iaijutsu damage on every attack. Iaijutsu is in no way restricted to a katana. Isn't there a Blurstrike or something enchantment from FR that renders opponents flat footed against your swing? That was another point of abuse.From Races of the Wild. It only works 10 rounds per day Of course, iajitsu was never meant to be broken that way...it's really something only usable in a formal duel situation. The IM is supposed to be able to kill his foe in one hit...that is his schtick.Nothing is ever meant to be broken. But sometimes, it just happens.
Diplominator 11-11-06, 06:40 PM	Nothing is ever meant to be broken. But sometimes, it just happens. CoughPlanarShephardCough Fine, you tell me what they were thinking.
psly4mne 11-11-06, 07:24 PM	CoughPlanarShephardCough Fine, you tell me what they were thinking.Let's make a planar-themed druid! It'll be flavorful! Yeah, but Wild Shape ties druids to the Material Plane cuz animals are basically from the Material. OK, we'll change it to tie them to their chosen plane. Let's make them turn into things from their plane. Instead of animals, they'll turn into magical beasts! And instead of elementals, they'll turn into... what's the equivalent of an elemental for other planes? Outsiders! And let's make turning into outsiders follow the same rules and turning into elementals. Except for gaining feats - that would be broken.
1hitparry 11-11-06, 08:39 PM	It's Races of the Wild, if I remember correctly. So does a IM get no bonuses at all if they draw their weapon but the enemy is not flat-footed? I think so. Otherwise the IM would just be super broken if you could do that damage against everyone. And as for the carrying a bundle of katanas, I saw that somewhere else, but I don't see any ability that the IM (at least from OA) gets that lets him make free attacks by drawing his weapon.
Repeekluos 11-11-06, 08:43 PM	I think so. Otherwise the IM would just be super broken if you could do that damage against everyone. And as for the carrying a bundle of katanas, I saw that somewhere else, but I don't see any ability that the IM (at least from OA) gets that lets him make free attacks by drawing his weapon. Not free attacks. There is a feat called "Flick of the Wrist". Complete warrior. Pretty good for the build.
Diplominator 11-11-06, 08:51 PM	Let's make a planar-themed druid! It'll be flavorful! Yeah, but Wild Shape ties druids to the Material Plane cuz animals are basically from the Material. OK, we'll change it to tie them to their chosen plane. Let's make them turn into things from their plane. Instead of animals, they'll turn into magical beasts! And instead of elementals, they'll turn into... what's the equivalent of an elemental for other planes? Outsiders! And let's make turning into outsiders follow the same rules and turning into elementals. Except for gaining feats - that would be broken. Okay, fair enough. Still, they failed HARD.
1hitparry 11-11-06, 10:10 PM	Not free attacks. There is a feat called "Flick of the Wrist". Complete warrior. Pretty good for the build. Isn't that 3.5? And isn't OA 3.0?
fnord 11-11-06, 10:50 PM	Isn't that 3.5? And isn't OA 3.0? Well, if you're talking about IM in 3.5, then you're mixing editions anyway. Flick of the Wrist was also in Song and Silence in 3.0, anyway.
Michigan 11-11-06, 11:04 PM	Of course, 3.0 is suppossed to be 100% compatable with 3.5... although, I'd give my lucky d20 for an update to OA. The simplest way to "unbreak" the Iaijutsu Master is to require a katana be used, and then point-and-laugh when the player tries to carry three swords. The dishonor! The shame to your clan! The hubris towards your ancestors! An IM should be limited to doing his thing once per attack; he'll be a high level martial character anyway, and no slouch in a melee; but the iaijutsu strike technique is limited in scope. BTW, with the IM's uberbonus to initiative, he's likely going to be going first... therefore his target will be flatfooted. At level ten, they can't even be suprised.
aelryinth 11-12-06, 12:02 AM	The multiple swords was for successive iterative attacks. If he wins initiative on the first round, his opponent is still flat footed. So draw one sword after another with iajitsu rolls, and clean his clock. Quickrazor. Sigh. Free actions to resheathe? Jeez. ===Aelryinth
Michigan 11-12-06, 12:28 AM	Yes, but think how silly he looks. Four katanas? Sheesh.
tsuyoshikentsu 11-12-06, 12:59 AM	Of course, 3.0 is suppossed to be 100% compatable with 3.5... although, I'd give my lucky d20 for an update to OA.Dragon #318. Lucky d20, please.
horndgod 11-12-06, 02:05 AM	Or you can just strap a bandolier of daggers across your chest and take levels in Dervish.
borg2 11-12-06, 11:31 AM	Just be aware a lot of people seem to nerf the skill check by requiring it to be a full round attack in their campaign (which also fits in with the historical side of the skill). You are supposed to start "one step and one cut" distance from your opponent in a duel, which matches a 5' step and a full attack action. Of course, things like catfolk and the catfolk pounce do a bit of an end run around this... And there's quite a few ways to flat foot an opponent, flick of the wrist being the favourite, but things like a grease spell also work well...