Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kaiberon 10-05-05, 07:11 AM	I think I finally "broke" Incarnum, figured this would be the best place for it. Level 1 feat= Shape Soulmeld: Planar Chasuble Level 5 start Incarnum Blade PrC Level 10 gain Soul Bind class feature for Incarnum Blade, bind Planar Chasuble as per the Shape Soulmeld Feat to Soul Chakra. = level 10 PC with a 1/week Gate spell for 1000 xp to use Calling Creature version. Or just Gate as the spell.
X-Codes 10-05-05, 07:20 AM	Meh... I don't find this insanely insane, I mean sure you can pull a Balor outta yer arse once per week, but then the Balor comes back to get revenge for you runing his morning jog... Not to mention that it still costs 1k xp, which is insanely harsh at level 10 (about two encounters worth of XP, or between one or half of a really big encounter).
RadicalTaoist 10-05-05, 09:00 AM	Which is why you use it as Gate is best used - to bumrush encounters of a CR higher than yours. But isn't Gate limited by caster level? And won't you be using your meldshaper level for CR, nerfing this tactic quite a bit?
X-Codes 10-05-05, 09:43 AM	Which is why you use it as Gate is best used - to bumrush encounters of a CR higher than yours. But isn't Gate limited by caster level? And won't you be using your meldshaper level for CR, nerfing this tactic quite a bit? I still don't like it. From the looks of it you have to devote at least half your resources to this 1/week ability, and it doesn't even do anything that powerful yet has potentially grave concequences. Seriously, if you have a good DM then you don't muck with outsiders by doing gate/planar binding overmuch. Game can turn really sour really fast.
Mud 10-05-05, 01:19 PM	I think I finally "broke" Incarnum, figured this would be the best place for it. Level 1 feat= Shape Soulmeld: Planar Chasuble Level 5 start Incarnum Blade PrC Level 10 gain Soul Bind class feature for Incarnum Blade, bind Planar Chasuble as per the Shape Soulmeld Feat to Soul Chakra. = level 10 PC with a 1/week Gate spell for 1000 xp to use Calling Creature version. Or just Gate as the spell. Not quite. That class feature only allows you to bind the Incarnum Blade's blademeld to a chakra. It doesn't give you the ability to bind other soulmelds or magic items to your chakras... the feature's description even says as such. Sorry. :(
The Wild Rover 10-05-05, 01:30 PM	i don't have incarnum yet so i haven't looked at it at all, but it seems like a fun use for it would be to use it with VOP. not breaking it by a long shot but still pretty effective i think
Kaiberon 10-05-05, 04:37 PM	it becomes warring terminology Mud, though i would normally cast my vote with you the text of the class feature was not thought out enough otherwise it contradicts itself. Saying "it obviously refers to X and only X" without it specifically saying so leaves room for the RAW arguement, here the feat description makes it a feasible occurence. Blademeld: a special soulmeld Blademeld chakra bind: allows you to bind the special soulmeld to a chakra, but does not confer the ability to bind soulmelds to chakras? Then how do you bind the special Blademeld Soulmeld to these chakras, it specifically confers the ability to do so, to bind a soulmeld to a chakra. Shape Soulmeld feat: if you can bind "a soulmeld" (regardless of how special or unique since no room for such a determination is made in the text) to a chakra you can bind the one granted by the feat to that chakra provided it can be bound there. Panar chasuble can be bound to the soul chakra. Even worse is the fact that the Blademeld can be selected for the feat since the feat doesn't exclude "special soulmelds", so the Incarnate class can just incorporate the entire Incarnum Blade PrC into their own right off the bat by taking Shape soulmeld: Blademeld at level 1.
Kaiberon 10-05-05, 04:41 PM	And worrying about Balor's being angry is the least of your concerns, just make a permanent gate to whatever hell you want and let the Devils pour onto your favored primematerial, or better yet, X'oriat in Eberron and watch the mindflayers and Daelkyr wash over Eberron. End the world at level 10!
Mud 10-05-05, 11:17 PM	Saying "it obviously refers to X and only X" without it specifically saying so leaves room for the RAW arguement If it didn't apply to blademeld only, then it would be just called Chakra Bind, not Blademeld Chakra Bind. Blademeld: a special soulmeld Yes, it is a special soulmeld... granted by a supernatural ability only for the IB. It's not even in any soulmeld list (unless you want to call blademeld a list in and of itself). Blademeld chakra bind: allows you to bind the special soulmeld to a chakra, but does not confer the ability to bind normal soulmelds to chakras? You hit the nail right on the head. (Added in normal myself... and I guess WotC should've done so as well... for clarification) Then how do you bind the special Blademeld Soulmeld to these chakras, it specifically confers the ability to do so, to bind a soulmeld to a chakra. Replace "a soulmeld" with "just the blademeld" and that becomes right. Shape Soulmeld feat: if you can bind "a soulmeld" (regardless of how special or unique since no room for such a determination is made in the text) to a chakra you can bind the one granted by the feat to that chakra provided it can be bound there. Panar chasuble can be bound to the soul chakra. To more precisely quote this feat: "If you have the ability to bind a soulmeld to a chakra, you can bind this soulmeld (the one chosen by the feat) to any chakra available to you." Now, you're putting emphasis on the first part of this sentence when you should be putting emphasis on the second part (the part after the comma). Since you have lvls in the IB class, you can shape a blademeld and bind it to any chakra your lvls in the class allows. Now, going back to the Blademeld Chakra Bind description, it says that it doesn't grant you the ability to bind soulmelds to your chakras (still think this should've been clairified...). In other words, it doesn't make the chakras available to you for any purpose other than using blademeld. So, you can use the feat to take Planar Chasuble no problem, but to bind it to your soul chakra like you want to do, you still have to have the chakra available to you through either 19 lvls in Incarnate, or the Open Soul Chakra epic feat. Having the soul chakra available to you for blademeld isn't the same as having it available for everything else. WotC guaranteed that in the Blademeld Chakra Bind description (in order to prevent trying to get certain abilities way earlier than normal like you tried to do). Call it a contradiction if you want, but the fact is that WotC included those restrictions to balance the IB out when compared to other classes and PrC's. Allowing a lvl 10 character (lvl 5 combat/lvl 5 IB) to use planar chasuble as a gate before a lvl 19 Incarnate or a lvl 24 epic character is just plain stupid. Even worse is the fact that the Blademeld can be selected for the feat since the feat doesn't exclude "special soulmelds", so the Incarnate class can just incorporate the entire Incarnum Blade PrC into their own right off the bat by taking Shape soulmeld: Blademeld at level 1. Well, assuming that you make blademeld into its own class list like I mentioned above, you still can't bind blademeld to two separate chakras at the same time as an Incarnate. :P Also, if I'm not mistaken, you can't change which chakras the blademeld is bound to on the fly either.
footdownatgreen 10-06-05, 02:05 AM	if this is the first break attempt on incarnum, then people arent looking hard enough. two levels of of incarnate with the crystal helm (i think) bound to your crown chakra makes all of your attacks have the force descriptor. Take quite a few levels in ninja, go ethereal and make 100% of your attacks as sudden strikes . easy break right there.
SoulStorm 10-06-05, 02:14 AM	if this is the first break attempt on incarnum, then people arent looking hard enough. two levels of of incarnate with the crystal helm (i think) bound to your crown chakra makes all of your attacks have the force descriptor. Take quite a few levels in ninja, go ethereal and make 100% of your attacks as sudden strikes . easy break right there. That doesn't work. Force effects don't affect the material from the ethereal.
Kaiberon 10-06-05, 02:56 AM	exactly what i was looking at when i checked out the blink shirt. Not trying to be a prick Mud, but in addition to it being a RAI arguement, everything you just said is similar to me looking up the word unscrupulous in the dictionary to describe my attempt to cheese my tyrannical pain in the rear GM then deciding to replace the word "devoid" in "devoid of scruples" with "having a heaping helping" to create "having a heaping helping of scruples". I also can't tell you how much i appreciate you talking down to myself and the others on the forum by stating the obvious: Allowing a lvl 10 character (lvl 5 combat/lvl 5 IB) to use planar chasuble as a gate before a lvl 19 Incarnate or a lvl 24 epic character is just plain stupid. If I pull this at all it is simply my hope that the GM(s) I face who cling so tightly to RAW will find themselves a little more flexible in the future, maybe open to homebrew stuff or stuff from Dragon magazine even. Obviously the RAI are set up to prevent this type of abuse but the RAW are lacking. However using the same methods you described in "adjusting the text" I can create the following eyesore: The blademeld chakra bind does not grant you the ability to bind soulmelds gained from other classes or magic items to chakras. Similar effect, it's more specific, but still misses the mark, does it matter? No, because it's not what's printed which is all I'm concerned with.
Timespike 10-06-05, 12:37 PM	i don't have incarnum yet so i haven't looked at it at all, but it seems like a fun use for it would be to use it with VOP. not breaking it by a long shot but still pretty effective i think I've got a build on here that does that with Barbarian, Totemist, Totem Rager, and Champion of Gwynharwyf (Azurin Bbn 2/Totemist 4/Totem Rager 4/Champion of Gwynharwyf 10) And yes, VoP is INSANE with incarnum. A soulborn in particular won't much feel the effects of the loss of equipment and can use sapphire smite and exalted smite together to DEVASTATING effect. One quick warning, though; you will run out of decent exalted feats to take, and quickly. Multiclassing as a paladin/soulborn/incandescent champion is probably better, because you've got more class abilities enhanceable by your vow.
Mud 10-06-05, 02:21 PM	I also can't tell you how much i appreciate you talking down to myself and the others on the forum by stating the obvious I wasn't trying to be condecending to anyone. I wasn't even trying to be condecending to you, and I apologize, but I was trying to make sure you understood me. If you can find a loophole in the rules and successfully show how it can be exploited, then more power to you. That is, after all, part of what the CO forums are about, right? Besides, I had a point for stating the obvious, which was that not even WotC is stupid enough to allow such a blatant loophole as this, and they added the sentence "Blademeld Chakra Bind doesn't grant you the ability to bind soulmelds or other magic items to your chakras" for specifically this loophole. This sentence is not ambiguous, nor is it contradictory... it confirms the fact that only your blademeld can be bound to your chakras and nothing else... something that should've been obvious in the title of the class feature itself. To do otherwise means you have to take lvls in a meldshaping class or take one of the Open Chakra feats (or spells, or powers...). I don't think there's anything else to say that hasn't already been said, so I'm not gonna say anything else on this matter. Feel free to agree, disagree or insult me if you wish, but I've added my 2 cents, and I'm not going to attempt to convince anyone else of the correctness of my position. In the end, it's up to the reader to decide.