Breaking Shadow Pounce [Archive] - Wizards Community

Breaking Shadow Pounce [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NateNate
12-22-04, 05:04 PM I was just thinking how awesome Horizon Walker/Teflammar Shadowlord is, when you full-attack, Quickened spell-like Dimension Door, and full-attack again. Then I thought of using Repeat Spell.

I want to build a pseudo-Gish Wizard who can use a Repeated Dimension Door to move adjacent to a foe, full-attack, then Quickened Repeated Dimension Door to the other side of them, and full-attack again. The next round you get two full-attacks from the Repeated spells, then you can do another Repeated Dimension Door and full-attack, and another Quickened Repeated Dimension Door and full-attack a fourth time. It should be able to get four full-attacks/round for maybe three rounds before the higher level spells are used up. I'm sure it would involve Easy Metamagic: Quicken, and maybe metamagic rods. With the Extra Spell feat I could pick Dimension Door off the TS spell list as a 3rd level spell. The requirements for TS will be a bit hindering, though:

Alignment: Nongood
Hide 10 ranks, Move Silently 10 ranks
Blind-Fight, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Dimension Door as a spell or spell-like ability
Sneak Attack +2d6
Region: Thesk

The class gets Rogue BAB, good Ref save, 4 skill points/level, gains Shadow Pounce at level 4, and maxes out at 6 levels. It has its own spell progression up to 3rd level spells, with its own spell list, most of which is at a much lower level than normal and includes Greater Invisibility as a 2nd level spell, so Sneak Attack will probably go through.

It looks like it should start out similar to an Arcane Trickster build, but without going into AT (or maybe it could..). I'd probably use Extra Spell to pick Divine Power, so BAB won't matter.

I just thought of going into it with Cleric instead of Wizard, using Extra Spell to get D.Door as a 3rd level spell, maybe with Divine Metamagic for Quicken or Repeat Spell. Show me some ideas!
olothfaern
12-22-04, 06:24 PM http://www.geocities.com/olothfaern/quicksp.jpg

The finish in geomancer allows you ignore arcane spell failure with all your shadowlord spells.

I'd see about using the cloisterd cleric variant so you can still be a skill monkey.

I took the regional feat, to reflect the deity selection; it'd probably be more optimal to take something else (like Able Learner).
Tempest Stormwind
12-22-04, 06:58 PM Get an item that engages Schism (4th level telepath power) when you can. The power gives you, effectively, an extra mental standard action per round, which you can use on an at-will dimension door effect (preferrably a spell-like ability). So, you do this:
1) Standard action: Dimension door behind you target. Shaow Pounce Full Attack (SPFA).
2) Quickened action: Quickened Dimension door on the other side of the target (as a quickened effect, no AoO). SPFA.
3) Schism-mind's standard action (no AoO as it's not distracting your main mind): Dimension Door to another position. SPFA.
4) Move action: Either hide (if you have something like HiPS) or move away (if you're fast or you can fly). You probaly have Tumble.

Of course, the delay on the Horizon Walker's version makes this less effective.

There's also another thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=342342) that attempts something similar using the warlock (Flee the Scene = At will, short-range Dimension Door, with the added benefit of a Major Image of yourself where you started the teleport. Warlocks also have 24-hour flight, so you and the images all make your getaway by flying up, entering the same square, and then emerging in random directions. Repeat as desired). (Of course, the problem with the warlock lies in pulling off Quicken Spell-Like with a high base attack bonus...)
Qaetar
12-22-04, 09:39 PM Just a note: Other than your Shadow Pounce, Dimension Door halts all other actions for the round.

Twin Spell is a better bet than Repeat Spell for that reason.

Thus, the Shadow Pouncer I made used Greater Teleport, Quickened Greater Teleport and Quickened Dimension Door Spell Like Ability.

When the Swift action clarification propagated, it made it so I was left with only Greater Teleport and Quickened Dimension Door (Spell or Spell Like Ability), leaving only two Shadow Pounces.

On a side note, if one can Polymorph into a Wood Wose and take Assume Supernatural Ability for their Treewalk ability, and fought in a forest (or just somewhere with two separate trees adjacent to an opponent), one could theoretically walk through the trees, taking twelve individual teleports, getting a Shadow Pounce after each one, then ending with a Quickened Dimension Door.

(Qaetar)
Furdaddy
12-22-04, 11:44 PM I'm a big Shadowlord fan, but multiple full round attacks is just silly. True, by the RAW, it's legal. But it strikes me as the height of ridiculousness. It seems pretty clear that Shadow Pounce was meant to simply permit a DD equivalent of the pounce special ability.

Do you know a DM who would allow this, or are we just engaged in one of those purely theoretical exercises in optimization?

Is there ANY other way to get more than one full attack action in a single round?
olothfaern
12-22-04, 11:48 PM This will be much harder to get by someone...

http://www.geocities.com/olothfaern/shpounce.jpg

We've got logs and logs of cheese here, Able Learner, Skill Knowledge, Sublime Chord, Extra Spell (Divine Power)... fun fun fun

The main things here are the 1st level (sor/wiz) spell Benign Transposition from the Miniature's Handbook (pp. 34) and it's 2nd level brother Baleful Transposition, both have the 'teleportation' descriptor, which triggers your shadow pounce.

Oh I forgot, you use all you nice mount abilities with your polymorphed (draconic) familiar.
amalcon
12-23-04, 12:09 AM Read the fine print:

After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.

from the SRD description of Dim. Door. This doesn't prevent the full attack, since it's part of the action of casting Dim. Door, nor the repeat, since it takes no action, but it does prevent the second (quickened) Dim. Door.
olothfaern
12-23-04, 12:10 AM You could go Egoist 15/Crinti S. Marauder 5; get expanded knowledge (dimension swap) and expanded knowledge polymorph... then polymorph and fission yourself and use dimension swap.

The above is from memory, feel free to disprove/improve it.
Tempest Stormwind
12-23-04, 12:52 AM What is the Crinti S. Marauder and were can I find it?

There's other ways to teleport than D.Door.

In psionics (my specialty), Dimension Swap has already been mentioned (and a psychic warrior or nomad can take it without a feat -- as a 2nd level effect, it really is the cheapest self-teleport "spell" I know of). There's also the third level Dimension Slide (psywar only, though), which is a close-range teleport that's limited by line-of-sight. It can also be augmented to be used as a move action, so you can use it a whopping THREE times in a round normally (Standard, Move (augmented), and Swift (quickened)). Plus, with Expanded Knowledge (Schism), you can get a fourth one in there too. A bit costly on the PP scale, though (30 PP to pull off all four manifestations, not counting the cost on Schism). Still, that's four full attacks in one round, and psywars don't suffer from such a huge base attack loss that it can't be saved to gish-worthy levels with Illithid Slayer.

What IS noteworthy, though, is the following.
1) Dimension Slide is on the psychic rogue (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) list, and they also get Psionic Dimension Door. That one class has no problems qualifying for TSL on its own, although it does end up with a lower base attack and has to wait till 13th level before it can pull this off. (on the upside, it also works well for Psychic Assassin (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d), so your death attacks can be souped-up even further. Imagine if you catch you opponent flat-footed at the start of this stunt -- he'd have to make 12 or 16 (haste/speed weapon dependant) separate death attack saves, if I remember properly how that ability works!). If you take Shadow Jump as your Special Ability (it's open to both classes), you may qualify sooner.
2) None of the above powers (except, of course, Psionic Dimension Door) limit your actions after a teleport.
3) TSL's shadow jump can be used in a pinch if you want to conserve PP on this (replace your Standard manifestation with a Shadow Jump), provided there's some elements of shadow around (and since you're a shadowlord, there probably is some).

If you're worried about balance (and you shouldn't be if you're in a thread like this!), don't be. The psychic rogue is widely held to be one of the best balanced alternative base classes available, and I've seen no definitive arguments made between choosing it or the core rogue over each other.
olothfaern
12-23-04, 01:07 AM What is the Crinti S. Marauder and were can I find it?

In Shining South, much easier class to get into (mechanically), and gets shadow pounce @5th.

I was just about to bring up psychic rogue.

How about Ranger 5/ Crinti S. Marauder 5/Dervish 10...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NateNate 12-22-04, 05:04 PM	I was just thinking how awesome Horizon Walker/Teflammar Shadowlord is, when you full-attack, Quickened spell-like Dimension Door, and full-attack again. Then I thought of using Repeat Spell. I want to build a pseudo-Gish Wizard who can use a Repeated Dimension Door to move adjacent to a foe, full-attack, then Quickened Repeated Dimension Door to the other side of them, and full-attack again. The next round you get two full-attacks from the Repeated spells, then you can do another Repeated Dimension Door and full-attack, and another Quickened Repeated Dimension Door and full-attack a fourth time. It should be able to get four full-attacks/round for maybe three rounds before the higher level spells are used up. I'm sure it would involve Easy Metamagic: Quicken, and maybe metamagic rods. With the Extra Spell feat I could pick Dimension Door off the TS spell list as a 3rd level spell. The requirements for TS will be a bit hindering, though: Alignment: Nongood Hide 10 ranks, Move Silently 10 ranks Blind-Fight, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack Dimension Door as a spell or spell-like ability Sneak Attack +2d6 Region: Thesk The class gets Rogue BAB, good Ref save, 4 skill points/level, gains Shadow Pounce at level 4, and maxes out at 6 levels. It has its own spell progression up to 3rd level spells, with its own spell list, most of which is at a much lower level than normal and includes Greater Invisibility as a 2nd level spell, so Sneak Attack will probably go through. It looks like it should start out similar to an Arcane Trickster build, but without going into AT (or maybe it could..). I'd probably use Extra Spell to pick Divine Power, so BAB won't matter. I just thought of going into it with Cleric instead of Wizard, using Extra Spell to get D.Door as a 3rd level spell, maybe with Divine Metamagic for Quicken or Repeat Spell. Show me some ideas!
olothfaern 12-22-04, 06:24 PM	http://www.geocities.com/olothfaern/quicksp.jpg The finish in geomancer allows you ignore arcane spell failure with all your shadowlord spells. I'd see about using the cloisterd cleric variant so you can still be a skill monkey. I took the regional feat, to reflect the deity selection; it'd probably be more optimal to take something else (like Able Learner).
Tempest Stormwind 12-22-04, 06:58 PM	Get an item that engages Schism (4th level telepath power) when you can. The power gives you, effectively, an extra mental standard action per round, which you can use on an at-will dimension door effect (preferrably a spell-like ability). So, you do this: 1) Standard action: Dimension door behind you target. Shaow Pounce Full Attack (SPFA). 2) Quickened action: Quickened Dimension door on the other side of the target (as a quickened effect, no AoO). SPFA. 3) Schism-mind's standard action (no AoO as it's not distracting your main mind): Dimension Door to another position. SPFA. 4) Move action: Either hide (if you have something like HiPS) or move away (if you're fast or you can fly). You probaly have Tumble. Of course, the delay on the Horizon Walker's version makes this less effective. There's also another thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=342342) that attempts something similar using the warlock (Flee the Scene = At will, short-range Dimension Door, with the added benefit of a Major Image of yourself where you started the teleport. Warlocks also have 24-hour flight, so you and the images all make your getaway by flying up, entering the same square, and then emerging in random directions. Repeat as desired). (Of course, the problem with the warlock lies in pulling off Quicken Spell-Like with a high base attack bonus...)
Qaetar 12-22-04, 09:39 PM	Just a note: Other than your Shadow Pounce, Dimension Door halts all other actions for the round. Twin Spell is a better bet than Repeat Spell for that reason. Thus, the Shadow Pouncer I made used Greater Teleport, Quickened Greater Teleport and Quickened Dimension Door Spell Like Ability. When the Swift action clarification propagated, it made it so I was left with only Greater Teleport and Quickened Dimension Door (Spell or Spell Like Ability), leaving only two Shadow Pounces. On a side note, if one can Polymorph into a Wood Wose and take Assume Supernatural Ability for their Treewalk ability, and fought in a forest (or just somewhere with two separate trees adjacent to an opponent), one could theoretically walk through the trees, taking twelve individual teleports, getting a Shadow Pounce after each one, then ending with a Quickened Dimension Door. (Qaetar)
Furdaddy 12-22-04, 11:44 PM	I'm a big Shadowlord fan, but multiple full round attacks is just silly. True, by the RAW, it's legal. But it strikes me as the height of ridiculousness. It seems pretty clear that Shadow Pounce was meant to simply permit a DD equivalent of the pounce special ability. Do you know a DM who would allow this, or are we just engaged in one of those purely theoretical exercises in optimization? Is there ANY other way to get more than one full attack action in a single round?
olothfaern 12-22-04, 11:48 PM	This will be much harder to get by someone... http://www.geocities.com/olothfaern/shpounce.jpg We've got logs and logs of cheese here, Able Learner, Skill Knowledge, Sublime Chord, Extra Spell (Divine Power)... fun fun fun The main things here are the 1st level (sor/wiz) spell Benign Transposition from the Miniature's Handbook (pp. 34) and it's 2nd level brother Baleful Transposition, both have the 'teleportation' descriptor, which triggers your shadow pounce. Oh I forgot, you use all you nice mount abilities with your polymorphed (draconic) familiar.
amalcon 12-23-04, 12:09 AM	Read the fine print: After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn. from the SRD description of Dim. Door. This doesn't prevent the full attack, since it's part of the action of casting Dim. Door, nor the repeat, since it takes no action, but it does prevent the second (quickened) Dim. Door.
olothfaern 12-23-04, 12:10 AM	You could go Egoist 15/Crinti S. Marauder 5; get expanded knowledge (dimension swap) and expanded knowledge polymorph... then polymorph and fission yourself and use dimension swap. The above is from memory, feel free to disprove/improve it.
Tempest Stormwind 12-23-04, 12:52 AM	What is the Crinti S. Marauder and were can I find it? There's other ways to teleport than D.Door. In psionics (my specialty), Dimension Swap has already been mentioned (and a psychic warrior or nomad can take it without a feat -- as a 2nd level effect, it really is the cheapest self-teleport "spell" I know of). There's also the third level Dimension Slide (psywar only, though), which is a close-range teleport that's limited by line-of-sight. It can also be augmented to be used as a move action, so you can use it a whopping THREE times in a round normally (Standard, Move (augmented), and Swift (quickened)). Plus, with Expanded Knowledge (Schism), you can get a fourth one in there too. A bit costly on the PP scale, though (30 PP to pull off all four manifestations, not counting the cost on Schism). Still, that's four full attacks in one round, and psywars don't suffer from such a huge base attack loss that it can't be saved to gish-worthy levels with Illithid Slayer. What IS noteworthy, though, is the following. 1) Dimension Slide is on the psychic rogue (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) list, and they also get Psionic Dimension Door. That one class has no problems qualifying for TSL on its own, although it does end up with a lower base attack and has to wait till 13th level before it can pull this off. (on the upside, it also works well for Psychic Assassin (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d), so your death attacks can be souped-up even further. Imagine if you catch you opponent flat-footed at the start of this stunt -- he'd have to make 12 or 16 (haste/speed weapon dependant) separate death attack saves, if I remember properly how that ability works!). If you take Shadow Jump as your Special Ability (it's open to both classes), you may qualify sooner. 2) None of the above powers (except, of course, Psionic Dimension Door) limit your actions after a teleport. 3) TSL's shadow jump can be used in a pinch if you want to conserve PP on this (replace your Standard manifestation with a Shadow Jump), provided there's some elements of shadow around (and since you're a shadowlord, there probably is some). If you're worried about balance (and you shouldn't be if you're in a thread like this!), don't be. The psychic rogue is widely held to be one of the best balanced alternative base classes available, and I've seen no definitive arguments made between choosing it or the core rogue over each other.
olothfaern 12-23-04, 01:07 AM	What is the Crinti S. Marauder and were can I find it? In Shining South, much easier class to get into (mechanically), and gets shadow pounce @5th. I was just about to bring up psychic rogue. How about Ranger 5/ Crinti S. Marauder 5/Dervish 10...