Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ranthanas 11-15-04, 07:40 PM	So, with Sublime Chord allowing 9th level spells to a partial caster and Precocious Apprentice allowing second level spells to a first level character, what can we come up with? Mystic Theurges: Wizard 1 (Precocious Apprentice) Cleric 3 Mystic Theurge 1-10 (Yes, you only need 6 ranks in each of Knowledge (Religion) and Knowledge (Arcana) for a Mystic Theurge. Almost full clerical casting (and is anyone else thinking "Cheater of Mystra" to finish this off? - although a level in True Necromancer is equally cheesy. Cleric 8/Nar Demonbinder 1/Virtuoso (to cleric) 1/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9 9th level arcane and divine spells. Qualifying for Sublime Chord isn't going to be easy, however. Bard 9/Apostle Of Peace 1/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9 (or equivalent Nar Demonbinder build) 9th level arcane and divine casting. And no, I don't want to try working out the caster level for the AoP. (Yes, there are some pretty obvious finesses to this build). Bard 2/Druid 3/Green Whisperer 5/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9 (Who gets credit for that?) 9th level arcane and divine casting. Caster level 20 with Practiced Spellcaster... Gish: Fighter 1/Bard 4/Spellsword 5/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8 (Requires Skill Knowledge or Versatile - and yes, I did get this one first) BAB: +18 Caster Level: 20 9th level Arcane Spells (almost the Holy Grail of the Gish) The decent Bladesinger builds: Half-elf Fighter 2/Bard 4/Spellsword 1/Blade Singer 3/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8 (See above for the advantages- but you don't need either Skill Knowledge or Versatile for this one to work). Wizard 2 (Precocious Apprentice)/Swashbuckler 3/Spell Sword 3/Blade Singer 1/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8 Only BAB: +17 and 19 caster levels. Int to melee damage and towards AC. Ranger 2/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8 Only BAB: +17 and 18 caster levels. A number of useful bennies to make up for this. (If you'd told me that I'd be saying only BAB +17 and 18 caster levels (9th level spells) a week ago, I'd have laughed). Bard 1 (Precocious Apprentice)/Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Dragon Disciple 10/Exotic Weapon Master 1 (Uncanny Blow- Bastard Sword)/War Shaper 4 (Make the Precocious Bard spell Alter Self for the ability to kick a*** and take names- a decent use for the bonus Dragon Disciple spells) Arcane Tricksters: (and other rogue types) Rogue 3/Bard 7/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Trickster 8 (not mine) Good skills monkey, 9th level spells (20 caster levels) Rogue 3/Sorceror 2/Paragon Human 3/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Trickster 8 6d6 sneak attack, 9th level spells (20th level casting) Rogue 4/Sorceror 4/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Trickster 8 (less optimised version of above- but available to any race) Rogue 4/Barbarian 1/Assassin 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Trickster 8 (8d6 sneak attack, 19th level casting) Anyone who's actually seen Complete Arcane want to add more? I think we've raised the bar for a good build quite a lot here.
nihility 11-15-04, 07:45 PM	Good work, Ranthanas. The power creep goes ever upward...
Rod Howard 11-15-04, 07:48 PM	O_O What are the requirements for Sublime Chord?
nihility 11-15-04, 07:53 PM	So, for those of you keeping score, we have: 1) The Thought Bottle, an item that lets you "save" your experience, then "load" it when you feel like it, such as after casting wish a few times and dying. 2) Sublime Chord, bringing us within a stone's throw of the legendary BAB 20, 9th level spells, all good saves Uber-Gish. 3) Precocious Apprentice, which only looks mildly bad in comparison to #1. 4) Updated Orb spells. 5) Dual-wand mojo, because 135d6 damage per round is perfectly reasonable. So, what else? Are we going to make the Cheater of Mystra look underpowered by the end of the week? Edit: updated to include Caelic's points.
shadow mage 11-15-04, 07:54 PM	Oh my my my, I think I've found something to be added to my gish thread...now I just need someone kind enough to inform me a little more about the sublime chord... :thinks: Oh the havoc I can think of with a bard gish...
Caelic 11-15-04, 08:16 PM	So, for those of you keeping score, we have: 1) The Thought Bottle, an item that lets you "save" your experience, then "load" it when you feel like it, such as after casting wish a few times and dying. 2) Sublime Chord, bringing us within a stone's throw of the legendary BAB 20, 9th level spells, all good saves Uber-Gish. 3) Precocious Apprentice, which only looks mildly bad in comparison to #1. So, what else? Are we going to make the Cheater of Mystra look underpowered by the end of the week? The updated Orb spells, coupled with Double Wand Wielder--bringing the Blastificer's damage potential up to a nice, modest 135d6, no SR, no save, in a one-round volley. Plus, of course, four Fortitude saves to avoid the various incapacitating special effects.
catharz 11-15-04, 08:19 PM	Precocious Apprentice is another great Bard feat. A 1st-level character who gets 24+(4*Int) skill points, 6+Con HP, good Reflex and Will, spellcasting in armor, decent weapon proficiencies, and the ability to cast a 2nd level spell? Sign me up! At later levels, of course, the power declines unless you find a clever way to abuse it.
nihility 11-15-04, 08:43 PM	Thanks, Caelic. I updated the list.
Mucknuggle 11-15-04, 09:01 PM	I suspect that errata will soon be fixing some of these things like they've done in the past with the more broken CD tricks. The developpers probably read this board before typing up most of the errata. Anyway...the Thought Bottle is dirty. Any super dirty spells in Complete Arcane?
Caelic 11-15-04, 10:01 PM	Ugh. This CAN'T be right. It can't possibly be right. If it is right, it merits a new thread. BRB.
Timespike 11-15-04, 10:07 PM	And of course there's the evil-stalking Gish... Level 1 Bard 1 [Education, Sacred Vow] Level 2 Bard 2 Level 3 Ranger 1 Favored Enemy:Evil Outsiders [Skill Knowledge (Perform, Listen)], [Track] Level 4 Paladin of Freedom 1 Level 5 Paladin of Freedom 2 Level 6 Bard 3 [Vow of Obedience] Level 7 Bard 4 Level 8 Harper Paragon 1 Level 9 Harper Paragon 2 [Arcane Strike] Level 10 Harper Paragon 3 Level 11 Sublime Chord 1 Level 12 Sublime Chord 2 [Nemesis] Level 13 Harper Paragon 4 Level 14 Eldritch Knight 1 [Expertise] Level 15 Eldritch Knight 2 [Snowflake Wardance] Level 16 Eldritch Knight 3 Level 17 Eldritch Knight 4 Level 18 Eldritch Knight 5 [Wise to Your Ways] Level 19 Eldritch Knight 6 Level 20 Eldritch Knight 7 Divine Grace, Bardic Music (6/day), Lay on Hands (2 levels worth), Detect evil (twice) Favored enemy (evil), Excellent weapon and armor proficiency, BAB 17 F 12 R 12 W 10, hit dice 6d6 + 1d8 + 6d10 + 7d4 And possibly even the ability to wield a holy avenger (or its chaotic equivalent) Take THAT you evil bastards! :fight!:
Caelic 11-15-04, 10:17 PM	Okay, guys: somebody, please go and kill the monstrosity I just gave birth to in the "Ur-Singer" thread. Unless I'm mistaken, it has 9th level arcane and divine spells, with a CL of 20 for the arcane spells and 30 for the divine--and that's in 19 levels.
RadicalTaoist 11-15-04, 10:18 PM	I'm surprised no one's attached Archmage or Sacred Exorcist to Sublime Chord yet. Hey, aren't there some spells in the Book of Exalted Deeds that require the loss of a level? Spells we can break with a Thought Bottle? Amazing, I can turn my Wiz5/Rainbow Servant4/Celestial Mystic10/Dragonslayer1 build into PURE EVIL :schemes: And for the grand finale, someone find an effective way to work Cerebremancer into the Sublime Chord. TEH WIN!
Wicked Warlock 11-16-04, 01:22 AM	What about the whole idea about the wild mage with the Practiced Spellcaster feat. If I read it correctly, allows for a 1d6 CL increase on all spells cast by the wild mage. No matter how you interpret it, you have a good chance of adding to your caster level with one level of the Prc. Very Munchy IMO.
NateNate 11-16-04, 02:50 AM	I'm surprised nobody's grabbed a level of Prestige Bard on any of these...
Brastan 11-16-04, 03:37 AM	Heres one since the bard is being used. How would the Feat: Battle Caster come into play? Would taking it once apply to both the Bard's and Sublime Cord's ability to ware armor? If so that feat combined with Mithral Fullplate would give heavy armor at no armor check penalty. The heavy steel shield is covered by the spellsword. My First time around optimization boards but I had to note that Mithral Fullplate on a Bard/Spellcaster seems almost... wrong :devil: If the Battle Caster only applies to one class get it after you take Sublime Cord, who cares about the low level bard spells at that point. Edit WARNING skills mismatch on the Fighter 1/Bard 4/Spellsword 5/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8 You won't get the full ranks in Perform or Listen that are need for the Sublime Cord. The cc on Perform and Listen during the Spellsword levels kills it. Unless you have a way to make Perform and Listen Class skills permanently. Please, oh please correct me if I'm wrong there. Edit 2 Revise to Fighter 1/Bard 5/Spellsword 4/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8 One level of Bard to be taken after Spellsword hits 4th level Races: Human, Half-Elf, Gnome Stats: Int 14 before level 10 (12 for humans )
Voldenuit 11-16-04, 04:42 AM	WARNING skills mismatch on the Fighter 1/Bard 4/Spellsword 5/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8 You won't get the full ranks in Perform or Listen that are need for the Sublime Cord. The cc on Perform and Listen during the Spellsword levels kills it. Unless you have a way to make Perform and Listen Class skills permanently. Please, oh please correct me if I'm wrong there. Your maximum ranks in a skill that is a class skill for any of your classes is your character level +3. However, when you buy ranks in it using a level it is not a class skill for, you pay skill points as if it were a cross-class skill (2 skill points for every rank).
LordKiwi 11-16-04, 07:16 AM	Fighter 1/Bard 4/Spellsword 5/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8 (Requires Skill Knowledge or Versatile - and yes, I did get this one first) BAB: +18 Caster Level: 20 9th level Arcane Spells (almost the Holy Grail of the Gish) Taking... Fighter 1/Bard 4/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 2/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 3-10 Would boost your Sublime Chord progression to allow more high level spells earlier, although you would loose channel spell. I'd prefer this as it gets you better spells below 20th level, which is where you'll spend most of your time. Precious Apprentice may be useful for qualifying for Spellsword one level early. Wizard 2 / Fighter 2 / XXX 1 - where XXX = any full BAB class. Lord Kiwi,
Scud-O 11-16-04, 09:33 AM	Has it been officially ruled that gaining a single spell (not a single spell slot, but a single spell) of a given level constitutes being able to casts spells (plural) of that level (i.e. "able to cast 2nd-level spells" as a req)? I just don't think there is any room for argument that PRECOCIOUS APPRECTICE does NOT qualify you for PrCs that require the ability to cast 2nd-level spells (plural), because you it doesn't allow you to cast 2nd-level spells - you can cast one (1) 2nd-level spell. And you can't even ALWAYS cast it (although the DC is pretty easy).
Sabis 11-16-04, 11:44 AM	Has it been officially ruled that gaining a single spell (not a single spell slot, but a single spell) of a given level constitutes being able to casts spells (plural) of that level (i.e. "able to cast 2nd-level spells" as a req)? I just don't think there is any room for argument that PRECOCIOUS APPRECTICE does NOT qualify you for PrCs that require the ability to cast 2nd-level spells (plural), because you it doesn't allow you to cast 2nd-level spells - you can cast one (1) 2nd-level spell. And you can't even ALWAYS cast it (although the DC is pretty easy). Or, if you want to think of it that way, then a 4th level sorcerer cannot qualify for the ability to cast 2nd level spells, as they only have 1 2nd level spell at that level. Making their entry into prestige classes EVEN HARDER. but since this is oviously not the case, as since 3.0 a 4th level sorcer qualified for PrC's w/ the ability to cast 2nd level spells, then there is precident for the mechanic of this feat being used as a PrC requirement
Caelic 11-16-04, 05:34 PM	The fact that spell-like abilities are now considered to meet prestige class requisites for specific spells (as per page 72) is...interesting. And potentially very abusable.
Musrum 11-16-04, 06:08 PM	Or, if you want to think of it that way, then a 4th level sorcerer cannot qualify for the ability to cast 2nd level spells, as they only have 1 2nd level spell at that level. Making their entry into prestige classes EVEN HARDER. but since this is oviously not the case, as since 3.0 a 4th level sorcer qualified for PrC's w/ the ability to cast 2nd level spells, then there is precident for the mechanic of this feat being used as a PrC requirement Even more silliness: You are out of spells for the day. You loose all your PrC abilities since you no longer qualify. Go and rest up...
RadicalTaoist 11-16-04, 06:44 PM	THIS IS SO HARD TO SYNERGIZE WITH PSIONICS! What PrCs grant Bardic Music? Maybe I can do this with a Harper Scout...
Ranthanas 11-16-04, 07:59 PM	Precocious Apprentice is another great Bard feat. A 1st-level character who gets 24+(4*Int) skill points, 6+Con HP, good Reflex and Will, spellcasting in armor, decent weapon proficiencies, and the ability to cast a 2nd level spell? Sign me up! At later levels, of course, the power declines unless you find a clever way to abuse it. There is one second level bard spell that does not go obselete. Silence. The way it is used is for mage fighting- ready an action and if he opens his mouth to cast a spell *bang* - automatic spell failure as you silence the ground on which he is standing. If anything, that gets more powerful as you level and face more mages. (Your second level starting spell of choice is Alter Self for +6 to AC at first level, on top of your armour...) As for granting Bardic Music, I think Virtuoso and Warrior Skald are it (at least if you don't already have Bardic Music). On other points: you use Skill Knowledge to get the class skills to qualify for Sublime Chord, and I didn't put levels of Eldritch Knight before the Sublime Chord levels because it is debatable whether you can change which class the +1 caster level applies to in midstream. FWIW, the caster level of Bard 7/Apostle of Peace 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9 is: For the AoP: 12+0.5*(7+Sublime Chord) For the SC (I think): AoP+10 Therefore: AoP=12+.5*(17+AoP) .5*AoP=20.5 Acolyte of Peace Caster Level = 41 Sublime Chord Caster Level = 51 DM's response: hit any such munchkin over the head with a hardback copy of the DMG.
RadicalTaoist 11-16-04, 08:18 PM	Hey, it's an Apostle of Peace, so it can't hurt anybody... It can only buff its party members for half a week at a time, or cast spells that demiliches can't dispel, or greater planar binding a celestial paragon, or PaO into a devastation vermin for kicks, or start crafting +24 cloaks of charisma and periapts of wisdom the second you get into epic levels. Thank god Venomfire is a 3rd level cleric spell or we'd see this guy buffing an ally with poisonous fangs and the Spit Venom feat so that he could, including Empower, do 76d6 acid damage every round with a ranged touch attack as a standard action for over four days. Thank GOD that AoP's can't directly hurt anyone. See the first line of my sig. Now, with that said, I'm at my wit's end at how to abuse cerebremancer with the CA.
handforged 11-16-04, 09:33 PM	True Necromancer seems like a perfect fit for all this wonderfulness. Wiz 1 (Precocious Apprentice)/Cleric 3/MT 2/TM 14 Wiz CL: 15 (8th level spells) Clr CL: 17 (9th level spells) All of the True Necro's super abilities. I don't have Libris Mortis, so I may be wrong, but it seems pretty nice. ~hf
Caelic 11-16-04, 11:04 PM	'Fraid not. The AoP isn't an arcane spellcasting class, and thus can't be used for calculating Sublime Chord CL. Your Sublime Chord caster level is 17. Your bard caster level is also 17. Your AoP caster level is 27. Add Practiced Spellcaster to bard to kick both arcane levels up to 20 and AoP level to 30.
rilem 11-17-04, 09:46 AM	THIS IS SO HARD TO SYNERGIZE WITH PSIONICS! ... Well, the Cerebremancer was already better synergized than the Mystic Theurge. the Precocious gimmick just makes it a bit better still. The fact that spell-like abilities are now considered to meet prestige class requisites for specific spells (as per page 72) is...interesting. And potentially very abusable. That's in there? Surprising. So I suppose that a Tiefling's or Aasimar's spell-like abilities (both 2nd level spells, right?) wouldn't be "specific" enough for Mystic Theurge on their own?
rilem 11-17-04, 09:50 AM	So far the best argument I've seen against the Precocious Apprentice trick, cited by HorndGod in another thread, is that, while a fourth-level Sorceror only knows one 2nd level spell, he can cast it several times per day, thus meeting the "spells" requirement. It's not a home-run shot against the concept, but it muddies the waters sufficiently. However, a 4th level Battle Sorceror only knows one spell and can only cast it once per day (assuming a Cha of less than 14). Can a BattleSorceror4/Cleric 3 go into Mystic Theurge? I would think so.
Qaetar 11-17-04, 12:35 PM	So I suppose that a Tiefling's or Aasimar's spell-like abilities (both 2nd level spells, right?) wouldn't be "specific" enough for Mystic Theurge on their own? What it means, I gather, is that if a PrC says "Must be able to cast Mage Hand," having Mage Hand as a Spell-Like Ability counts. If a PrC says "Must be able to cast 1st level spells," having Entangle as a Spell-Like Ability should not count. (Qaetar)
Ranthanas 11-17-04, 03:51 PM	'Fraid not. The AoP isn't an arcane spellcasting class, and thus can't be used for calculating Sublime Chord CL. Your Sublime Chord caster level is 17. Your bard caster level is also 17. Your AoP caster level is 27. Add Practiced Spellcaster to bard to kick both arcane levels up to 20 and AoP level to 30. Bugger! Oh well.
Kuroi Kenshi 11-17-04, 06:49 PM	Does anyone else think it funny how errata is required for the CA and CD due to overpowering rule abuses, while the CW hasn't gotten errata yet because most the problems are minor errors that don't break gameplay like problems with PrC reqs (invisible blade), poor wording (channel spell), and so on? Cool to see bards making the best gish builds, at least!
incubus 11-17-04, 06:57 PM	Does anyone else think it funny how errata is required for the CA and CD due to overpowering rule abuses, while the CW hasn't gotten errata yet because most the problems are minor errors that don't break gameplay like problems with PrC reqs (invisible blade), poor wording (channel spell), and so on? Cool to see bards making the best gish builds, at least! Wait. You DID see my thread, right? And you do realise that a large part of it relies on the rules for improvised weapons, and don't actually need anything but a bizarrely high strength to compete... IOW the rules section of CW is majorly bent.
SuperThread 11-17-04, 07:27 PM	So far the best argument I've seen against the Precocious Apprentice trick, cited by HorndGod in another thread, is that, while a fourth-level Sorceror only knows one 2nd level spell, he can cast it several times per day, thus meeting the "spells" requirement. Nope. If casting the same spells multiple times qualifies, PA also qualifies. It doesn't say that you have to be able to cast the spells *on the same day*– you just need to be able to cast them.
Kuroi Kenshi 11-18-04, 03:34 AM	Wait. You DID see my thread, right? And you do realise that a large part of it relies on the rules for improvised weapons, and don't actually need anything but a bizarrely high strength to compete... IOW the rules section of CW is majorly bent. Ah, forgive me. I hadn't until now. Jeez :eek: awesome job. Well, one more reason to give the CW a much needed errata!
Part-Human2 11-18-04, 03:55 PM	Assuming there is a good Half-Ogre Fighter 5/Survivor 5/Warhulk 10 build its BAB would be +5. With a Skilled Weapon it'd be +15 BAB.
Blue23 11-19-04, 02:49 PM	I've really gotten into chord, so here's some ideas. I haven't constructed all the builds, so it's a bit rough. Many have "play room" to customize as you like. Bard 3 / Marshal 3 / Stormsinger 4 / SC 2 / Stormsinger 5-10 / Virtuoso 2 9th level spells, marshal 3 giving motivate charisma (for stormsinger thunderbolt/bard stuff) and determined spellcaster (get through SR) minor auras and a major aura of choice. 16 bardic music uses for the large variety of bard songs. -- Bard 7 / Any full BAB 2 / Divine Crusader 1 / SC 1 / MT 9 No Song of Arcane Power, but 9th level SC and cleric spells, though with a very limited list for each. Bard 7 isn't a great break point, if we can fit +1 caster level down there instead of 1 level (to keep bard 6 for suggestion) that's good. War Chanter makes a good fit for the full BAB spots for more bardic music uses. -- Bard 7 / EK 1 / Deepwoods Sniper 2 / SC 2 / EK 2-9. An archer build I'm thinking about playing soon. Bard 7 is still far from optimal, but fitting in a single level of a +1 caster level class early is tough because we need feat for archery, can't do EK until 3rd level spells, and DS has a BAB requirement. See any good ways to improve it? Needs the Martial feat from FR. -- Rog 3 / Bard 2 / Fatemaker (PlanarHB) 5 / SC 2 / AK 8 Just an interesting take. Could be Rog 4 / Bard 1 for uncanny dodge, but this build lacks bardic music. In FR take the Artist feat for a few more. -- Bard 4 / Bonded Summoner 6 / SC 2 / Bonded Summoner 7-10 / +1 Arcane 4 Four levels at the end to play with as long as they grant caster level. One SC caster level short of 9th level spells, but you have the full size bonded elemental, and if you're going to bother to get an elemental you want the whole thing. -- Bard 6 / Havoc Mage 3 / Eldritch Knight 1 / SC 2 / HM 4-5 / EK 2-7 Also requires the Martial feat. This one is touch. Havoc Mage 5 is the real payoff, but if we instead do another level of EK instead we up to BAB +16 and gain an iterative attack. But I'd rather battlecast 8th level spells and attack once then not battlecast and attack one extra time in general. -- Want to try something with a good number of spellsword levels gained prior to SC (and perhaps one +1 caster level one after). -- In general, my thoughts on SC were: * No reason to stay in the class beyond 2nd level. d6 HD, 4 skill points and 1/2 a bardic music use isn't a big deal vs. d4 HD, 2 skill points, and special abilities * Assuming using other PrCs to boost caster level, it's still an inferior spell caster to the Sorcerer (who isn't all that great in the first place) * The beauty of it is that you have a few levels prior to getting into it where you have room to play. So you can do things like take a few levels of classes that don't grant full or even any spellcasting progression. Cheers, =Blue(23)
celloshane 11-19-04, 03:28 PM	Just thought I would report that the designer intends to errata the feat so that it cannot be used to qualify for PrCs. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=339046 Ah, the conundrums of grammer.
Naramyth 11-19-04, 05:14 PM	Bard 4 / Bonded Summoner 6 / SC 2 / Bonded Summoner 7-10 / +1 Arcane 4 Four levels at the end to play with as long as they grant caster level. One SC caster level short of 9th level spells, but you have the full size bonded elemental, and if you're going to bother to get an elemental you want the whole thing. Thats a great Idea! Might have to steal that... :P I do agree on the coolness of using non-caster levels prior to SC to get lots of abilities and still wind up with high level spells. Its like the Nar Demonbinder, thats not setting specific, and can be used in a good-aligned build. Anyway I haven't picked up my copy of CA so this is based off the fact that SC get 5th level spells at SC level 2 Fighter1/Bard5/Spell Sword4/Sublime Choir2/Sacred Exorcist8 BAB +15 with full casting and better then d8 average HD with channel spell and all the good SE bennies. This assumes non-UA, non-setting specific. If you can used Unearthed Arcania I would get skill knowledge Perform, or Human Paragon, or use the CG paladin and cha to saves.