Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Norade 08-18-06, 03:07 AM	Is it possible to simply flip a deck of many things over, spread it out, and pick the cards you want? I'm pretty sure that by RAW it is, since the cards are stated to be activated once they are drawn from he deck not upon being viewed.
JungeonJeff 08-18-06, 05:26 AM	...But would your character know what card has which effect? -and what is to stop the GM rom simply causing any card you pull from being a random effect of one of the cards? ;)
X-Codes 08-18-06, 05:40 AM	...But would your character know what card has which effect? -and what is to stop the GM rom simply causing any card you pull from being a random effect of one of the cards? ;) Or from spreading out the cards causing the effect to activate for them all, in a random order? Could be pretty devastating to die on the first draw and then not get *anything* good out of the deck, but since you already drew you are now unaffected by it. It goes strongly against the spirit of the Deck, so don't get mad if you try this and the DM strongly reams your character for cheating with artifacts.
Masse 08-18-06, 07:16 AM	Try casting a divination (or other predictive magic) asking "Will good or evil befall me if I draw X cards?" Repeat for X=1,2,3... until you get an "Evil" answer. I saw this idea somewhere on this board, can't remember where...
colm_l 08-18-06, 07:31 AM	Or just adjust the odds: Wild Touch (feat)& Wild mage together allow you to roll/draw 4 times & pick the best. I think a 2.8% chance of drawing a bad card may be broken...
Caelic 08-18-06, 07:43 AM	At any rate, I'd certainly say that flipping the cards over and spreading them out counts as drawing them from the deck. They're no longer in the deck; you just have a somewhat messier way of drawing than most.
weblife 08-18-06, 07:53 AM	Casting of Augury before pulling each card can help alot. As Augury can only see a short time into the future and all the punishing effects of the Deck is instant, the Augury spell will likely be pretty accurate in detecting bad things for any given draw. Note that your "draw" will be irrelevant if you do not take it immediately after the Augury. If something happens that makes you pull another card, or in another way that you were going to do it before the Augury, the divination is no longer accurate and should be cast again.
Aufenshauft 08-18-06, 09:02 AM	I can't believe anyone didn't think of the Wild Mage class yet. It allows you to choose two chances for random events and choose the one you want. There are very few ways to get **rewed by the deck if you have this class, as the chances of picking up two of the really negative cards at the same time is rather low, but the chances of picking up at least one good card is. Heck, even if you take a bad card hit you can reverse it with the wish card, so you could theoretically come back from behind. So, bring your cleric friend for the divinations and away you go.
colm_l 08-18-06, 12:34 PM	I can't believe anyone didn't think of the Wild Mage class yet. It allows you to choose two chances for random events and choose the one you want. There are very few ways to get **rewed by the deck if you have this class, as the chances of picking up two of the really negative cards at the same time is rather low, but the chances of picking up at least one good card is. Heck, even if you take a bad card hit you can reverse it with the wish card, so you could theoretically come back from behind. So, bring your cleric friend for the divinations and away you go. Oh but I did ;) Or just adjust the odds: Wild Touch (feat)& Wild mage together allow you to roll/draw 4 times & pick the best. I think a 2.8% chance of drawing a bad card may be broken...
Rhonin the Big 08-18-06, 12:59 PM	Put the deck of many things into your Handy Haversack, the joker will keep floating to the top of the deck. Deck of many things now broken in a core environment. Deck of many things now Implodes, have a nice day!
Iron Klaw Merc 08-18-06, 01:50 PM	The Deck of Many Things is a Major Artifact, most if not all major artifacts in the games I have played are not affected by puny mortal magic, mortal feats, or mortal class feature and abilities.
Zemyla 08-18-06, 03:43 PM	The Deck of Many Things is a minor artifact.
Rhonin the Big 08-18-06, 05:09 PM	The Deck of Many Things is a Major Artifact, most if not all major artifacts in the games I have played are not affected by puny mortal magic, mortal feats, or mortal class feature and abilities. If it works it works. If the gods didnt want their deck of many things to be used and abused by level 1 commoners with handy haversacks then it shouldn't have been created.
Norade 08-18-06, 06:12 PM	Sorry I should have been clearer on what I ment by spreading out, I meant that you could fan them out so that all cards are still touching and then remove the cards(s) you wanted from the deck.
Dolo 08-18-06, 06:26 PM	You know if Norade's DM reads any of this Norade is hooped. But this is aproaching levels of funny indeed. Regardless of whether its a Minor or a Major, its still an artifact, and a particuarly dangerous one too. Back in 1st and 2nd ed, yes a lot of these ideas would work, but with WOTC kicking it up to a Artifact you are pretty much playing with something that is Dm fiat. But the fanning of the deck to see what you can pick.....welll since you can only pick one at a time and its random when you pull, it don't really matter do it? But like I said before, you think you can get away with it go ahead. When the DM((If he has any common sense)) finishes laughing at you and starts hitting you with effects, hope for something good Obi Dumb Kenobi, its your only hope.
Norade 08-18-06, 06:33 PM	I might be able to make it fly, becuase when I DM he complains about DM Fiat when I pull it. But, I guess with most DM's the artifact = DM Fiat thing screws the pan over.
JaronK 08-18-06, 06:38 PM	Considering the Wild Touch feat already explicitly lists the Deck of Many Things as something it works on, there's already precident for messing with the deck. The simplest way to pull this off is with a cleric and multiple castings of Augery... just have him fill all his slots with that spell. Now, ask the following: "If I draw the top card of the deck, will that be a good thing?" If it says woe or weal and woe, the next question is "If I draw the second from the top card of the deck, will that be a good thing?" Continue until you get a weal response. If you got a weal on this question, you then ask "If I draw the second from the top card of the deck, then the third card, will that be a good thing?" Each time, if you get "weal" ask about doing what you just confirmed was good, plus one card, and if you get "weal and woe" ask about doing all but the last thing you added and a different card. Repeat until you can't cast any more Augerys... then draw in safety. Yehaw. JaronK
Dolo 08-18-06, 07:09 PM	Well you should be pulling the good cards as soon as you know((Gives a DM less of a reason to mess with you)), but at least its a thought out idea JaronK. Using a power to mess with the deck and combining it with Augry is a decent combo that works nicely. But remember you have to declare before even looking at the deck how many cards you want outside of that you should be home free, unless someone on this board points out something I am missing.
Norade 08-18-06, 07:11 PM	Well how many good cards are in the deck? If your character knows then just say that you draw tha many.
HelloRaptor 08-18-06, 07:16 PM	Where is this 'Wild Touch' feat from? Can someone point me to where I can read its Prereqs and Benefits?
Arkat 08-18-06, 09:20 PM	According to this list... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats ...there is no such feat as "Wild Touch!"
colm_l 08-18-06, 09:29 PM	According to this list... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats ...there is no such feat as "Wild Touch!" Wild Touch is from Dragon it's an anarchic feat
X-Codes 08-18-06, 10:52 PM	Considering the Wild Touch feat already explicitly lists the Deck of Many Things as something it works on, there's already precident for messing with the deck. The simplest way to pull this off is with a cleric and multiple castings of Augery... just have him fill all his slots with that spell. Now, ask the following: "If I draw the top card of the deck, will that be a good thing?" If it says woe or weal and woe, the next question is "If I draw the second from the top card of the deck, will that be a good thing?" Continue until you get a weal response. If you got a weal on this question, you then ask "If I draw the second from the top card of the deck, then the third card, will that be a good thing?" Each time, if you get "weal" ask about doing what you just confirmed was good, plus one card, and if you get "weal and woe" ask about doing all but the last thing you added and a different card. Repeat until you can't cast any more Augerys... then draw in safety. Yehaw. JaronK DM: "You find a leather pouch containing a deck of cards." Player 1: "Oooh! Oooh! I know what this is! I roll Knowledge!" *rolls dice* DM: "You think it's likely that this is a deck of many things, a powerful artifact that can create both benefitial and baneful results when you draw the cards." Player 1: "Ok! Lets rest, guys, I want to prepare some Auguries!" DM: "Uh... I just told you what happens when you draw the cards." Player 1: "I know, but I want to know what happens when I draw EACH card." DM: "I just told you that..." After they're all done resting... Player 1: "I cast augury and ask 'What happens if I draw the top card of the deck?'" DM: *rolls dice* "Weal and Woe" Player 1: "I cast augury and ask 'What happens if I draw the second-from-the-top card of the deck?'" DM: *rolls dice* "Weal and Woe" Player 1: "I cast augury and ask 'What happens if I draw the third-from-the-top card of the deck?'" DM: *rolls dice* "Weal and Woe" Player 1: "I cast augury and ask 'What happens if I draw the fourth-from-the-top card of the deck?'" DM: *rolls dice, augury fails* "Nothing" Player 1: "Well... I guess I'll just draw the top three cards then. I'm out of Auguries" DM: *rolls dice* "Skull, a translucent form climbs out of the card and attacks with twisted, ethereal hands!" After the fight... Player 1: "You gotta revive me, guys!" DM: "Your soul has been destroyed." Player 1: "I thought that something good was supposed to happen when I drew that card! You liar!" DM: *opens DMG to Deck of Many Things* "A deck of many things (both benefitial and baneful) is usually found in a box or leather pouch." Player 1: :eek: "Wait, you mean..." DM: "Have you learned your lesson yet?" Player 1: "Yes, sir... I'll never try to cheat with artifacts again..."
Rhonin the Big 08-18-06, 11:19 PM	I still dont understand why nobody is talking about my friends idea to put it in your handy haversack. Handy Haversack A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It is constructed of finely tanned leather, and the straps have brass hardware and buckles. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds. While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power in addition. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains. Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does. So just put it in the sack, draw the specific item of Sun Card, put it back, take out the deck, shuffle, put the deck back in the sack and draw the specific item of Sun Card again until your level 8 billion! :D
X-Codes 08-18-06, 11:38 PM	I still dont understand why nobody is talking about my friends idea to put it in your handy haversack. So just put it in the sack, draw the specific item of Sun Card, put it back, take out the deck, shuffle, put the deck back in the sack and draw the specific item of Sun Card again until your level 8 billion! :D A specific item is the Deck of Many Things itself. The deck is one item, it's not broken down smaller than that.
PhaedrusXY 08-18-06, 11:41 PM	How to break a Deck of Many Things? Simple: Put it in the game. It has the capacity to ruin a campaign exactly as-is. They can be quite fun, though. :D
Arkat 08-19-06, 08:23 AM	Wild Touch is from Dragon it's an anarchic feat Oh...Dragon huh? Nevermind.
diphycue 08-19-06, 09:36 AM	"If I draw the second from the top card of the deck, will that be a good thing?" Continue until you get a weal response. If you got a weal on this question, you then ask "If I draw the second from the top card of the deck, then the third card, will that be a good thing?" Since the card is readded to the deck and it is randomized again, there is no way to know in advance (for the DM) what the next card after the top card would be. Not to mention, Augury doesn't always work... you're asking divine powers to interfere with the operation of something THEY probably made. As for the HHH... you might be able to pull the entire deck out, but not a specific card from the deck... a) unless you're well versed in artifact lore, how would your character even know what cards are in it and what each card does? b) it's only one item the deck of many things, not a pouch containing 22 individual cards. And, yes, it can ruin a campaign... my evil necromancer drew out The Fates, and saved that for a bit, then drew Balance. He became Neutral Good. So, acting in Neutral Good fashion he avoided ever becoming Evil in the first place...and promptly disappearred to reappear wherever his life as a Good person would have taken him. I had to make a new character, but the campaign never really recovered. what I'd like to know is can you draw "The Whole Deck"? If so what happens? Since, after each card is drawn it goes back in...would you just keep drawing until reaching the card the Void? Can a Wish spell, or effect, allow you to ignore a card effect, like the Fates? Or could it be used to change the number of cards you originally requested?
djinni 08-19-06, 01:27 PM	what I'd like to know is can you draw "The Whole Deck"? If so what happens? Since, after each card is drawn it goes back in...would you just keep drawing until reaching the card the Void? Can a Wish spell, or effect, allow you to ignore a card effect, like the Fates? Or could it be used to change the number of cards you originally requested? the answer to all those questions in short is no. but that doesn't really cover it. you must declare by number how many cards you wish to draw. now for those that don't understand that means the words you use to declare how many cards you draw must be a mathmatically defined whole number. now with GM fiat wish can do anything. so theoretically you could wish that. I would instead wish for this drawing of the deck (as in this set of cards you draw) you would gain the effects of "wildfeat" and "chaos mage" and that those effects will vanish after you have selected your cards.
BradSmit 08-19-06, 02:31 PM	My DM actully put the deck in his game. My party and I found it. This DM loves props and actully had the deck that was made by Dragon magazine or something. He did it really fancy by setting down a small cardboard box and putting a white table cloth over it and laying the deck flat. My DM is cruel if you would ever try to do anything with any type of artifact. We were able to recognize what it was. At the time the party had 6 members. The rogue went first and decided to draw six cards. She was dead upon the third one if i remember correctly. I drew next. Got the sun card, the moon (4 wishs if i remember correctly), and the Skull. I promptly wished the skull away. Long story short the cleric (myself) and the wizard each drew the sun card. Anything bad that would happen got wished away. It was a solid night... However, now two party memebers have left and two new guys are coming in. To join the party you must draw from the deck of many things... Which is happening tonight for them. Anyone interested in finding out what they get? :D
Besshalar 08-19-06, 04:02 PM	The deck cannot be affected by any kinds of divination magic.
NoldorForce 08-19-06, 05:04 PM	The deck cannot be affected by any kinds of divination magic.Wrong. The Rogue's Dice (epic minor artifact) have this restriction, but nothing of the sort is listed in the description of the Deck of Many Things.
diphycue 08-19-06, 05:56 PM	Ok, is there a maximum number you can draw? Say you said 438,000, or one an hour for the next 50 years? What are the chances that you'd get enough wishes and The Fates to correct any major problems that come up through the cards? Not to mention, what are the chances you'd get enough levels through bonus XP that you'd be able to just take out the Death that shows up, easily levelling again through the defeat the next challenge and gain a level cards? Anyhow...it's my favorite artifact, so...
JaronK 08-19-06, 08:19 PM	Since the card is readded to the deck and it is randomized again, there is no way to know in advance (for the DM) what the next card after the top card would be. Not to mention, Augury doesn't always work... you're asking divine powers to interfere with the operation of something THEY probably made. Augery does work most of the time, and you just try each day to see if it starts working... if it does, it will continue to work. It's perfectly possible to know in advance as the DM what's going to happen. Simply take a real deck and use that for the deck of many things. When you say "is it a good idea to take the top card of the deck?" the DM looks at the card and then answers "weal" or "woe" or whatever. Then you say "is it a good idea to take the top card of the deck, then the next top card" the DM makes note of what the top card was, then shuffles and draws the top again. Nothing to it. When you're done, you simply say "I draw X" where X is what the Augeries told you to draw, and the DM looks at his written down material and tells you what you drew. DM: "You find a leather pouch containing a deck of cards." Player 1: "Oooh! Oooh! I know what this is! I roll Knowledge!" *rolls dice* DM: "You think it's likely that this is a deck of many things, a powerful artifact that can create both benefitial and baneful results when you draw the cards." ... {Insert text of DM arbitrarily screwing over player} That's why I don't play with DMs who screw over players like that. Just because it's an artifact doesn't mean magic can't affect it at all... see Wild Touch, Wild Mage, and other examples of magic doing just that. Your example was a DM screwing over a player and killing his character because the player got creative... I would have walked out on the game and never played with that sadist again. I prefer games where the DMs encourage creativity, and if they have a problem with what a player does, they don't arbitrarily off the character. JaronK
Caelic 08-19-06, 08:51 PM	That's why I don't play with DMs who screw over players like that. Just because it's an artifact doesn't mean magic can't affect it at all... see Wild Touch, Wild Mage, and other examples of magic doing just that. Your example was a DM screwing over a player and killing his character because the player got creative... Well, no, not really. His example was a DM making a judgement call on the limitations of a second-level spell that's not unreasonable given the description of the spell. The DM didn't lie to the character; the DM didn't force the character to draw cards; the DM didn't choose which card the character would draw. He simply determined that the Augury spell would give an indeterminate result in this situation, which is totally in keeping with the text of the spell.
diphycue 08-19-06, 08:59 PM	I disagree, also, I think a character who believes they can outthink a GOD should be put in their place. There are specific magics that can work on a DoMT, otherwise, since it's an artifact level item, many magics just won't work correctly. And, one thing many people forget, is that divine magic is provided by a diety, to be given or not as the god or goddess wills, not just as the character wants...unless you're an Ur Priest or Spellthief, I suppose. Rule 0 is specifically made to avoid overuses of game rules in ways they weren't intended. The game is supposed to be fun for everyone, not just the players, if the players screw the DM, ruining a carefully laid plan through a loophole in the rules, then he should feel free to excersize similar rules specifics to his advantage.
JaronK 08-19-06, 09:04 PM	Augery has a result for failure... the DM in that case said "weal and woe" despite the fact that he should have given the "spell fails" response, so he lied outright to the player, then killed him. This is DM fiat at its worst... killing off a player arbitrarily because the DM didn't like his course of action. JaronK
Caelic 08-19-06, 09:05 PM	I don't quite see it that way, diphycue. I don't believe in punishing players for trying to think outside the box--I just don't feel like I'm under any obligation to make sure every such attempt is a success. One thing about taking gambles is that sometimes you win big, and sometimes you don't. In the case of Augury, I'd simply rule that, as a low level divination spell, it can't handle sorting through the probability threads of a very random artifact like the Deck of Many Things. I wouldn't punish them for trying, but I'd make it pretty darned clear that their Auguries just weren't giving them useful information. If they proceed with drawing from the deck after that, whatever happens happens.
Arkat 08-20-06, 08:38 AM	I disagree, also, I think a character who believes they can outthink a GOD should be put in their place. What is this fixation you have with deities? Minor Artifacts (of which the DoMT is one) is mearly a very powerful magic item whose method of creation has been lost. There is nothing said in the DM guide about only deities making them. See DMG pg. 277 under the heading "Minor Artifacts." Here's that section from the SRD: Minor artifacts are not necessarily unique items. Even so, they are magic items that no longer can be created, at least by common mortal means. emphasis mine In fact, the very first paragraph under the overall "Artifacts" heading implies that "great wizards and powerful clerics" have created even Major Artifacts. So let's not get hung up on blaming (or, in this case, crediting) deities for everything.
colm_l 08-20-06, 08:41 AM	In the case of Augury, I'd simply rule that, as a low level divination spell, it can't handle sorting through the probability threads of a very random artifact like the Deck of Many Things. I wouldn't punish them for trying, but I'd make it pretty darned clear that their Auguries just weren't giving them useful information. If they proceed with drawing from the deck after that, whatever happens happens. Bingo. The reason the game has a GM in the first place is for this reason. GMs should play with the spirit of the rules not necessarily the letter. Otherwise the game bogs down completely.
X-Codes 08-20-06, 10:30 AM	What is this fixation you have with deities? Minor Artifacts (of which the DoMT is one) is mearly a very powerful magic item whose method of creation has been lost. There is nothing said in the DM guide about only deities making them. See DMG pg. 277 under the heading "Minor Artifacts." Here's that section from the SRD: In fact, the very first paragraph under the overall "Artifacts" heading implies that "great wizards and powerful clerics" have created even Major Artifacts. So let's not get hung up on blaming (or, in this case, crediting) deities for everything. You should also read the Mage's Disjunction spell from the SRD (MDJ for those that use PHB's). It specifically states that the spell is capable of destrying an artifact, and that if it does it's almost certain that a very powerful entity will take great interest in the party. Considering that this board has kicked the Monster Manual to the curb and ground it under it's heel, the only real foe thats a challenge for a COer is an optimized deity. Face it, thats a scary prospect. So here is what I'll conceed. If you want, you can cast Foresight and have a 1% chance per caster level of knowing the next card that will be drawn from a deck of many things. Once you learn this, you must succeed a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all your spellcasting abilities and have a 95% chance that your actions draw the attention of either a deity of chance or their direct servants, and they will be in a very bad mood about you trying to cheat chance, since thats like trying to cheat the deity of chance him/herself. The rules aren't there, so I use this, which I consider a logical extrapolation of present rules.
daynew 08-20-06, 11:22 AM	The true trick to making the deck of many things give you what you want is for a caster with an undead minion. Tell the minnion to draw 10 cards and hope he gets a card that allows him to ask any question. Then have him ask how many more cards he would have to draw to get the desirable number of cards in a certain order. Use other undead minions to get rid of the rest of the cards in between and have fun drawing your predetermined cards.
Masse 08-20-06, 11:29 AM	You should also read the Mage's Disjunction spell from the SRD (MDJ for those that use PHB's). It specifically states that the spell is capable of destrying an artifact, and that if it does it's almost certain that a very powerful entity will take great interest in the party.... So here is what I'll conceed. If you want, you can cast Foresight... permanently lose all your spellcasting abilities and have a 95% chance that your actions draw the attention of either a deity of chance or their direct servants... The rules aren't there, so I use this, which I consider a logical extrapolation of present rules. The general discussion of this thread regarding "screwing/rewarding creative players" and "make certain things fearful" is largely a matter of personal taste. I'm in the "make the game fun" camp. If the players will die from using a Deck, for no reason other than "they tried it," I wouldn't put one in the game. I liken it to watching a movie, or better yet, a series of movies. Imagine, if you will, after watching Star Wars 1,2,3 and just starting into 4, Luke dies when he activates the light-saber Ben gave him. I realize the game isn't a movie, but it should, to me, be more or less set up to let the players be the winning heroes- much like movies heros are set up to win. Or to die in some creative or interesting way that makes a good story. But the end should not come from using something handed to them, even if they try to get creative with it's use. That all said, I would have no problem in using a Deck to advance a plot of drawing a deity's attention, as X-Codes said above. That could be wonderful fun, allowing very interesting stories to unfold, assuming the deity don't just "Bzzzap!" them out of existance with a lightning bolt, or otherwise suddenly end their adventuring careers.
Ringmereth 08-20-06, 02:15 PM	The true trick to making the deck of many things give you what you want is for a caster with an undead minion. Tell the minnion to draw 10 cards and hope he gets a card that allows him to ask any question. Then have him ask how many more cards he would have to draw to get the desirable number of cards in a certain order. Use other undead minions to get rid of the rest of the cards in between and have fun drawing your predetermined cards. That's the sort of thinking that's best for abusing a Deck. When my group stumbled across one, the plan I came up with to profit from it (which we never enacted) was to travel to the biggest city in the nation (a metropolis of millions) and round up beggars, compulsive gamblers, and desperate persons of low level to go with the party into the middle of nowhere and draw from the deck. If they get a bad result, it's their problem. If they get a good result that produces an immaterial benefit (like XP), it's their lucky day. And if they draw a card that gives them wealth or magic items, the party swoops in, steals the loot, and disposes of the guy to make sure he doesn't give away their method. Highly amoral, but since there's no limit to the number of people who can draw from the deck, thousands of commoners could try their luck every day if they were available. Alternatively, summoned creatures, undead, constructs, or other disposable entities could be used to draw, and roughly 1 in 5 will draw Throne, Sun, Key, or Gem, so for every 100 creatures who draw, the party would gain five medium magic items, five major magic weapons, five small keeps, and 250,000 gp in jewelry and gems. As a disclaimer, this obviously wouldn't be permitted by any sane GM, who would probably send Inevitables, avatars, and dieties after the group (despite the fact that they haven't cheated fate in any way, but merely taken advantages of the unaltered good and bad luck of others). Playing strictly by RAW, a group with enough time and summoning spells would be able to produce an unlimited fortune with this method--I'd probably use wands of summon monster II to produce Lemures to draw.
IceFractal 08-20-06, 02:15 PM	There's actually a simple way to benefit from the DoMT, without any questionable magic interaction. Simply use mind-controlled thralls. Order one to draw, say, a dozen cards, pausing between each. If they draw anything that gives them money or other possessions, have them give it to you. If they draw wishes, have them be used on your behalf. If they draw the Fates and survive the rest, have them become your personal bodyguard. And if they get killed, soul trapped, or otherwise dead, then hey - you have more thralls. And you can keep having other ones draw until you're satisfied, if you have enough.
Gryftir 08-20-06, 03:35 PM	And if they get XP, you use the Web Enhancement rules for PHBII that let you transfer xp to make magical items, and have them give you the XP for a magic item, which you then keep.
Arkat 08-20-06, 04:13 PM	It specifically states that the spell is capable of destrying an artifact, and that if it does it's almost certain that a very powerful entity will take great interest in the party. If it was a deity that created it, for sure! I don't see deities caring about the destruction of Spheres of Annihilation, Hammers of Thunderbolts or other Minor Artifacts however. They aren't unique after all and it's unlikely a deity would mass produce powerful items (Just how many Spheres of Annihilation are there? If you played through the second adventure path in Dungeon magazine, it's made clear there were many when the Wind Dukes of Aaqa fought in the Battle of Pesh to slay the Queen of Chaos' greatest general, Mishka the Wolf Spider in the Greyhawk campaign world - Oerth).
Caelic 08-20-06, 09:28 PM	Just how many Spheres of Annihilation are there? Well, logic tells us none--the planet still has an atmosphere. ;)
LogicNinja 08-20-06, 09:35 PM	Well, logic tells us none--the planet still has an atmosphere. ;) This is D&D. LOGIC DOES NOT WORK (that way).
diphycue 08-20-06, 11:44 PM	Don't you have to choose how many cards you take? A mindless undead minion can't choose anything, just do what it's told, and if you tell it to draw x amount, wouldn't that be just you drawing x amount using a proxy? Similarly for a mind-controlled thrall...the thrall isn't choosing to draw, you are. As for the using the commoners to draw...woe betide you the commoner that gets wishes or a similarly powerful effect, and then realizes what you're planning to do.
djinni 08-21-06, 12:14 AM	or one an hour for the next 50 years? you have to state a number, and all the cards must be drawn within an hour. not one every hour. you declare how many cards, and in one hour any cards not drawn automatically get drawn for you. The deck cannot be affected by any kinds of divination magic. book and page number.
tiercel 08-21-06, 12:36 AM	I think I have to agree that the best way to break the DoMT is to put it into the game :P No, really, what are your outcomes: 1) PCs decide to draw from the DoMT, straight up, without any particular attempts to outfox it. Given even a moderate number of cards, most likely one or more characters have something amazing happen and one or more characters have something disastrous happen, throwing the party/campaign out of whack. 2) PCs decide to draw from the DoMT, using a "clever" method to try to outfox it. DM does not appreciate this and Something Bad happens; PC death or TPK or Major Bad Campaign Mojo ensues. 2a) DM does not appreciate "cleverness" but merely does not allow it to work, rather than being vindictive, leading to situation (1) or (4). 3) PCs decide to draw from the DoMT, using a "clever" method to try to outfox it. DM allows this; PCs become veritable demigods. Campaign ends or continues at a power level DM was wildly unprepared for. 4) PCs decide not to draw from the DoMT -- "the only way to win is not to play." Playing strictly by RAW, a group with enough time and summoning spells would be able to produce an unlimited fortune with this method--I'd probably use wands of summon monster II to produce Lemures to draw. The problem with any RAW strategy is that the DM can be a literalist too, for instance: Where in the RAW does it actually say that the DoMT is random? (I need to check the actual DMG, but I'm looking at the SRD and I'm not seeing it.) I'll agree that it seems pretty stupid literalism to have a DM-designed DoMT card sequence, but I'm not sure if that is any more or less stupid than PCs generating infinite amounts of wealth and experience by abusing literalism.
Caedrus 08-21-06, 03:07 AM	My 2 cents worth: According to RAW, 2000 g.p. are needed for the well-known Heward's Trick: Buy a Heward's Handy Haversack, then place the cards within it. Then announce the card you are after. "When the wearer reaches into (the Haversack) for a specific item, that item is always on top." (DMG, Pg 259). BUT Let's face it, the Deck of May Things is potentially a game breaker (or at least extremely impactful), both in terms of balance (intra character as well as intercharacter balance), and so it has to be used very carefully. In my campaign setting, the party's wizard (who is also a shopkeep) created a social event of it. Every month, he offers the use of it ... for 5000 gold per card. Half of the takings go to the city's tax coffers. :devil: It is a social event, and a crowd always gathers. There is no insurance. You want to set up a deal with your local cleric, that's fine ... but there's worse things than death, of course. :devil: Are there ways to get around the Deck? Some Prestige Classes exist that allow a certain amount of Probability Manipulation. If you design and build a character for that purpose, and you find a Deck, more power to you. Literally. But, ultimately, it is, as always, the DM's call. A DM that doesn't give a Deck the game-balance respect it deserves, then woe to them. 60,000 XP, Some magic items, a keep, some wishes, and +6 to Diplomacy, all for one character? Allow that, and you deserve it. Find a way to grab it, and don't be surprised when your D.M. takes away your P.C. for game balance purposes. Just my 2 cents. C. ;)
JaronK 08-21-06, 03:11 AM	Come on guys, this is the char op boards, where we assume the DM is playing by RAW. Sure, lots of DMs will throw a deck of many things at you and then smack you down if you try to keep your character alive while using it. Some, like X-codes, would kill your character outright for daring to try something he didn't expect in his little novel, but that's the move of a novice. Most experienced DMs would try something else that simply caused the trick not to work, but that's not RAW. By RAW, you can use undead minions, charmed accomplices, augery spells, and a variety of other tricks to insulate you from the nastier cards or otherwise mitigate the danger of the deck. And in this environment, shouldn't we be talking about RAW? Individual DMs can nerf it as they see fit, though in my mind, considering the risk the DM wanted to throw at the characters, they should allow for serious powerups if they throw the deck at players. After all, even without tricks the deck could easily seriously powerup a group, and a DM should either be prepared for that or shouldn't put the deck in the game. JaronK
Zendu 08-21-06, 03:45 AM	This may be char-op but most of the builds and plots here have a hint of legitimacy. This is a board for not only 'wouldnt it be nice' but also 'you should rule 0 this' case in point- Pun-Pun. It may not be in the RAW, but I assume that the magic only works if the chances are truely random( by a sentiant creature). If your player draws a death card, so be it, adventurers make mistakes. Don't coddle your players. I also understand how it feels like the nerf bat seems heavy in this case, but lets be realistic. Anyone capable of making this item certinly knows about divination spells. So many things are passed off as DM fiat when in reality its just common sense. It would take the resources of a small country to make this item, to expect it to be broken to your will by a second level spell.
X-Codes 08-21-06, 04:43 AM	Some, like X-codes, would kill your character outright for daring to try something he didn't expect in his little novel, but that's the move of a novice. What do you know about novels? You didn't even read my post. Lets assume you were Player 1 and, before you made the entire party rest for spells, I said "This is not going to work and your character knows it." We would end up getting in an argument over RAW and I'd probably end up throwing you out of the game (and my house) after about 5 minutes because continuing the game is more important to me than catering to whiny brats who think that their wimpy level 4 selves can cheat with artifacts and not expect to get bit in the ass HARD. Instead, taking the more subtle route of having every augury be "weal and woe," I am telling you, plain as day, that SOMETHING BAD WILL HAPPEN. If you go on to pull Throne, Sun, Key, and Gem, then I'm perfectly ready to deal with that because thats why I put the thing in the game for in the first place, so don't you get angry with me if you happen to draw Talons, Ruin, Fool, and Skull. Also, read Augury's description. When the spell fails, the cleric gets a "Nothing" result, not "weal and woe."
solbergb 08-25-06, 07:47 PM	Ah, but the Augury poster didn't say "Weal and woe" when it failed. He got the "Nothing" result once. Presumably that's when the dice caused it to fail. All the best deck of many things scams I've seen have involved the owner charging a fee for drawing. Either a flat fee, or, more commonly, splitting a percentage any material "take" you get (cashing in the magic item). The "keep" thing is probably not worth doing, but the cash and magic item rewards are plenty worthwhile. Plus the entertainment value of watching greedy commoners contend with Skull, Talons, Ruin and Donjon.... It probably won't work forever. Somebody will get the 60k xp or the wish and decide to take the deck from you, and maybe succeed eventually.