Breakworthy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Breakworthy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Querdenker
10-25-06, 09:58 AM This is gonna get a little complicated...

Our Game Master has released a set of special house rules for our current campaign, and I'm looking for some input on what I can do and how I can get the best out of it.

Ok, so here it is:

Character creation is as follows:

- Characters start at level 3 with 1 possible multiclass.
- Attributes are a standard 25 pointbuy.
- Starting gold is equal to level 1 starting gold.

- Every class receives one extra skillpoint per level, maximum skillrank is character level + 5.

- Only Wizards, Clerics, Paladins and Bards can read at the beginning (and only those languages, they can speak).
Learning to read/write costs 2 skillpoints per language.

For level 2 every character receives a bonus feat from the following list:
Humans: one of the "skill + 2 feats", one of the saving throw bonus feats, Jack of all Trades, Open Minded, Skill Mastery

Elves: Animal Affinity, Lightning Reflexes, Self sufficient, Dash, Blind Fight, Acrobatic, Agile, Athletic

Dwarfs: Endurance, Improved Toughness, Diehard, Brutal Throw, Persuasive, Diligent, Iron Will

Gnomes: Improved Toughness, Insightful Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Dilligent, Negotiator, Deceitful, Athletic, Blind Fight

Halflings: Improved Initiative, Force of Personality, Stealthy, Nimble Fingers, Deft Hands, Run, Danger Sense, Alertness

Spellcasters can as well take a metamagic feat, given they match the prerequisits.

- A character can only take levels in a new class/prestige class, when he finds a teacher.

- Wizards must specialise and half (round down) of their spells per grade must be from their area of expertise.
Therefor, they receive a bonus spell from this area at every odd numbered level.

- Sorcerers receive Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at level 3.

- Improved Toughness replaces Toughness (in regards of prerequisits for other feats and prestige classes as well). It also loses its prerequisits.

- Spell slots can be traded 2:1 for one spellslot of the next higher grade. The spell needs a fullround action to cast and a spellcraft-check DC 10 + new grade + number of spells used to build the higher level spell. Grade 0 counts as 0.5 in regards to this ability.

- For intuitive spellcasters there are some additions to this:
In the table, how many spells they know, the first "-" is replaced with "1".
If they use any from metamagic and use a higher slot, there is no additional casting time (so the combination of spells AND the metamagic use only one full round action).

- After raging, the barbarian is fatigued for 1 minute per round of rage.
- There is another mundane weapon upgrade than masterwork - "massive" - that gives -1 to hit and +1 damage per hand wielding the weapon.

Beginning at level 3, characters receive on hero point at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 of the xp necessary for the next level (that's where the interesting stuff begins!).

Hero Points can be used to buy special abilities from the following list:

- Cost of 1 point -
.once per day for 1 round per character level you receive class level + 1/2 character level (round down) for every spell/ability you use.
.(1/2 charlevel, round down) per day you can reroll any die before determining whether successful or not.
.(1/2 charlevel, round down) per day +2 to the next die roll.

- Cost of 2 points -
.receive one additional feat.
.you receive one class ability from one of your classes up to 4 levels above your level.
.a spellcaster counts as one level higher in regards of the number of spells known.

- Cost of 3 points -
.receive one class ability from any class up to four levels lower than your level.

edit: what I almost forgot! We are limited to PHB, DMG and the "Complete" series excluding Psionics, because our GM hates psionics for some odd reason (although I'm trying to get him to allow sth. from BovD). The only five races allowed are Humans, Elves, Dwarfs, Gnomes and Halflings.
Tweedledope
10-25-06, 10:02 AM Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7

Go to town.
dog45
10-25-06, 11:46 PM This seems unneccessarily complicated. But, its your game.

I'd go with a Human Druid w/ the Jack of All Trades bonus feat. Now you can do everything.
LogicNinja
10-26-06, 12:12 AM Yeah, and spend 3 points to buy the monk's WIS-to-AC as a druid (or even cleric).
Kirech
10-26-06, 12:30 AM Focused Specialist Gnome Illusionist.

You qualify for Shadowcraft Mage immediately, due to the stacking spell mechanic. Save up your Hero Points and start cherry-picking key abilities from PrCs you don't plan to take (Seal Fate, Nightmare Spinner stuff, Spell Power from Ultimate Magus). Make sure to take Skill Mastery and Skill Artistry (spellcraft) from Exemplar (level 1 abilities). Keep pumping your Spellcraft modifier and keep track of the highest level you can safely heighten Silent Image to. Game Broken.
PhoenixInferno
10-26-06, 01:08 AM Focused Specialist Gnome Illusionist.

You qualify for Shadowcraft Mage immediately, due to the stacking spell mechanic. Save up your Hero Points and start cherry-picking key abilities from PrCs you don't plan to take (Seal Fate, Nightmare Spinner stuff, Spell Power from Ultimate Magus). Make sure to take Skill Mastery and Skill Artistry (spellcraft) from Exemplar (level 1 abilities). Keep pumping your Spellcraft modifier and keep track of the highest level you can safely heighten Silent Image to. Game Broken.I'm with this guy. Insightful Reflexes also makes the Divine Oracle's Prescient Sense useful. I don't like the Focused Specialist though.
Kirech
10-26-06, 01:21 AM ...I don't like the Focused Specialist though.
That was just for more spell slots to Voltron together. Sorcerer or Beguiler might work, but it would take longer to get higher level slots and therefore easier Spellcraft checks.
Querdenker
10-26-06, 04:40 AM Very neat ideas so far (I think, I should send our Cleric and Sorcerer over here to get some input :cool: )!

I'm going for a character, a little more fighterish. I started a basic fighter and (if the GM allows some BovD stuff) I'm planning on Fighter 5/Warrior of Darkness 9/Disciple of Dispater 6, as I can enter WoD on level 5 and DoD on level 6 (and I only need 6 levels of DoD, as I can buy the higher level class abilities with hero points). The only drawback is the relatively low ability scores I have to deal with...
PhoenixInferno
10-26-06, 04:42 AM NO! Odd levels of Fighter are BAD! BAD POSTER! BAD! Where's my rolled up newspaper? :)
Querdenker
10-26-06, 04:51 AM NO! Odd levels of Fighter are BAD! BAD POSTER! BAD! Where's my rolled up newspaper? :)
:eek: I really missed that.... alternatives?
GaffeR
10-26-06, 04:57 AM :eek: I really missed that.... alternatives?
ANYTHING that gives +1 BAB. Hell, ANYTHING really. All Fighter 5 gives is d10 HD and BAB. It is CRAP.

Taking odd levels of fighter gets you beat around here.
Vikjunk
10-26-06, 05:13 AM ANYTHING that gives +1 BAB. Hell, ANYTHING really. All Fighter 5 gives is d10 HD and BAB. It is CRAP.

Taking odd levels of fighter gets you beat around here.
Sometimes you have to eat it unless you’re a human, a half-elf, a dwarf, or a few other races that are non-core. If not the XP penalty can be killer if not careful. Yes, you can find a prestige class but sometimes it isn't worth the requirements. I’ll admit it is a smart idea to try to avoid odd levels of fighter if you can, but just keep in mind don’t shoot yourself in the foot trying to avoid it. At least this campaign looks like he can multiclass without worrying.
Querdenker
10-26-06, 05:18 AM ANYTHING that gives +1 BAB. Hell, ANYTHING really. All Fighter 5 gives is d10 HD and BAB. It is CRAP.

Taking odd levels of fighter gets you beat around here.
If I just pick anything, I suddenly get a nice -20% xp penalty.
Vikjunk
10-26-06, 05:32 AM If I just pick anything, I suddenly get a nice -20% xp penalty.
Not if you are a human or dwarf if your DM is still using the favored class rules. They will let you ignore your fighter levels so that you can pick up another class if you want without worrying about the xp penalty.
Querdenker
10-26-06, 05:53 AM Not if you are a human or dwarf if your DM is still using the favored class rules. They will let you ignore your fighter levels so that you can pick up another class if you want without worrying about the xp penalty.
Ok, my fault. Until five minutes ago, I didn't know, prestige classes don't count in regards of multiclassing rules. :eek:
Aufenshauft
10-26-06, 09:30 AM Remember, if he is starting at 3rd level, you are not going to see this campaign past 7-8th level. Watch those 20 level build ideas.

I would want to get more clarification on the 3 hero point buy effect, as it is obviously the most broken ability in the listing. If he limits the 'level' to the effective level you would have to be for the class, then that might not be as broken, but if it is the way you wrote it, then we are talking massively broken.

Chamelion's floating feat - available at 6th level (2nd level chamelion, taken at -4 levels)
Chamelion's ability focus - available at 8th level
Monk wisdom to AC - 5th level
Duelist/Invisible Blade int to AC - 5th level
Paladin Cha to saves - 5th level
Initiate of sevenfold veil red veil - 5th level
Illithid Savant... 5th level
Soul Eater level draining - 5th level and you don't have to be evil

Just be cautious about abilities that rely on class levels to be good, like smiting, chamelion's spellcasting ability, or sneak attack. Yeah, this is a cherrypicker's dream.

I would suggest Druid or some other class that has a lot of class abilities, then use all your hero points to pick up a higher level ability, then switch classes to something else. Example:

Druid 3, pick up Druid 7 wild shaping ability. Then take
fighter 2 or Monk 2 and get class abilities from other classes (I like chamelion, soul eater, or illithid savant) then it should be easy to do
Horizon Walker 1, and use the hero points to get plane shifting early

By late 7th level you have a short duration shapeshifting monster that can do level draining punce attacks at range at will.

Edit:
Sorry, Sorry, didn't see the book rules.
Still, getting class abilities at lower level than you should is already a powerful ability. Take my example above and remove the level draining, but add higher level abilities just as-is. You can still have a battlefield control pouncer on the loose. I could see some real power coming in if you start doing 1 level in multiple classes and become a fighter type by taking the 2-5th level ability from all combat oriented classes.
fnord
10-26-06, 10:16 AM Chamelion's floating feat - available at 6th level (2nd level chamelion, taken at -4 levels)
Chamelion's ability focus - available at 8th level
Monk wisdom to AC - 5th level
Duelist/Invisible Blade int to AC - 5th level
Paladin Cha to saves - 5th level
Initiate of sevenfold veil red veil - 5th level
Illithid Savant... 5th level
Soul Eater level draining - 5th level and you don't have to be evil

Think Big. Think Epic Prestige Classes.

Agent Retriever's Force Sphere is available at 7th
Guardian Paramount's Call Back is available at 9th
High Proselytizer's Proselytize is available at 5th
Querdenker
10-26-06, 10:43 AM Honestly, I don't know how our GM intended the possibility to get other classes abilities to work in regards of prestige classes. Maybe something even got lost translating it (had to translate it from german).

But I'm pretty sure, he won't allow to take abilities from epic prestige classes prior to reaching epic levels. :rolleyes:
Ardras
10-26-06, 11:26 AM Well, you could of course just post the original rules here and get some help translating them ^^ from me e.g :D
Nevertheless, with those hero point you can buy feats, your max skill level is class +5, so remember not to worry about PrC reqs anymore. All of a sudden they can be met at an instant.
But what a character do you actually want ? You said more fighter, but honestly, with those houserules, and without ToB on you list of books, you might as well just give up and play a caster anyway....
Kirech
10-26-06, 11:50 AM ...I'm going for a character, a little more fighterish...
With the power he's giving spellcasters, if you're not one, you're not as good as you could be. Try this gish:

Bard4/[Full BAB]3/EldritchKnight1/SublimeChord1/EldritchKnight9/&c.

You'll have to invest in Cha, but it's a good investment. Grab Cha to saves from Paladin, Turn Undead from Cleric, and some nice buffing Divine feats.
Ardras
10-26-06, 12:01 PM With the power he's giving spellcasters, if you're not one, you're not as good as you could be. Try this gish:

Bard4/[Full BAB]3/EldritchKnight1/SublimeChord1/EldritchKnight9/&c.

You'll have to invest in Cha, but it's a good investment. Grab Cha to saves from Paladin, Turn Undead from Cleric, and some nice buffing Divine feats.

Also, for heaven's sake, grab Divine Metamagic asap. You'll have more than enough feats, hell, you could even buy some extra turning feats with those hero points.
Kirech
10-26-06, 12:17 PM Hah, I forgot to add Divine casting:

Bard4/Ur-Priest4/SublimeChord1/FochlucanLyrist10/&c.

You still have gishworthy BAB, but you'll have to figure out something to do with those last 4 divine caster levels from FL.
PhoenixInferno
10-26-06, 01:26 PM Also, for heaven's sake, grab Divine Metamagic asap. You'll have more than enough feats, hell, you could even buy some extra turning feats with those hero points.Divine Metamagic only applies to divine spells. See the eratta.
Endarire
10-26-06, 04:43 PM Bard4/Ur Priest2/Mystic Theurge2/Sublime Chord2/Fochluran10

-EE
Senevri
10-26-06, 05:13 PM Looks like fun house rules... kinda favors the casters, but that's not such a big problem in actual gameplay.
Querdenker
10-27-06, 07:05 AM Well, you could of course just post the original rules here and get some help translating them ^^ from me e.g :D

Here they are as our GM gave them to us.
House Rules (pdf) (http://synapsis.dynalias.com/Temp/Hausregeln.pdf)

I think I really should send our spellcasters a link to this thread. Maybe we should have made the whole party spellcasters... :D
X-Codes
10-27-06, 09:18 AM Human Bard 16/Fighter 4. (13 S, 8 D, 14 C, 14 I, 8 W, 15 Ch)

1) Insightful Reflexes, Force of Personality
2) Jack of all Trades
3) Power Attack, Extend Spell
(1/2 charlevel, round down) per day you can reroll any die before determining whether successful or not.
4) Lingering Song (1 saved)
5) Turn Undead (Cleric) (1 saved)
6) Divine Might, Divine Shield (2 saved)
7) Divine Grace (Paladin), Extra Turning
8) Evasion (Monk)
9) Mettle (Hexblade), Extra Turning
10) EWP (pick one you like) (1 saved)
11) Sacred Healing, Extra Turning
12) Armored Mage (Medium), Battlecaster
...
14) Mass Suggestion (Bard)
...
16) Inspire Courage +4 (Bard)
...

Theres so much you can do that I just don't know what to do beyond 12th level other than Mass Suggestion and Inspire Courage +4. Somehow get a Fighter level early to pick up Heavy Armor Prof.
Querdenker
10-31-06, 08:47 AM Ok, my fault. Until five minutes ago, I didn't know, prestige classes don't count in regards of multiclassing rules. :eek:
btw, where do I find that in the rules? :confused:
Kirech
10-31-06, 10:15 AM http://d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm
Last sentence of the first paragraph.
Querdenker
10-31-06, 10:45 AM http://d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm
Last sentence of the first paragraph.
Accept my humble thanks! :)
ShneekeyTheLost
10-31-06, 11:30 AM Here they are as our GM gave them to us.
House Rules (pdf) (http://synapsis.dynalias.com/Temp/Hausregeln.pdf)

I think I really should send our spellcasters a link to this thread. Maybe we should have made the whole party spellcasters... :D

Okay, assuming one can only use Hero Points to obtain class abilities from Core classes (because anything else is sheer cheeze), I present the following build for your perusal:

Human Barb3

Stats of Note:

Str, Dex, Con, Wis

Ditch Cha and Int, but don't hurt your skill points too bad with negs.

Following abilities you want to grab:

AC Bonus as per Monk. See if you can arrange to not only get Wis to AC, but get +1 AC per 5 levels, as written in the ability description on the SRD.

Evasion As per 2nd level Monk or Rogue

Don't bother with Armor, it'll just slow you down. You will be a tank who will be practically immune to nukes (thanks to Evasion) and your AC will not suffer. Rage and charge in. Build as per normal Thog Smash build.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Querdenker 10-25-06, 09:58 AM	This is gonna get a little complicated... Our Game Master has released a set of special house rules for our current campaign, and I'm looking for some input on what I can do and how I can get the best out of it. Ok, so here it is: Character creation is as follows: - Characters start at level 3 with 1 possible multiclass. - Attributes are a standard 25 pointbuy. - Starting gold is equal to level 1 starting gold. - Every class receives one extra skillpoint per level, maximum skillrank is character level + 5. - Only Wizards, Clerics, Paladins and Bards can read at the beginning (and only those languages, they can speak). Learning to read/write costs 2 skillpoints per language. For level 2 every character receives a bonus feat from the following list: Humans: one of the "skill + 2 feats", one of the saving throw bonus feats, Jack of all Trades, Open Minded, Skill Mastery Elves: Animal Affinity, Lightning Reflexes, Self sufficient, Dash, Blind Fight, Acrobatic, Agile, Athletic Dwarfs: Endurance, Improved Toughness, Diehard, Brutal Throw, Persuasive, Diligent, Iron Will Gnomes: Improved Toughness, Insightful Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Dilligent, Negotiator, Deceitful, Athletic, Blind Fight Halflings: Improved Initiative, Force of Personality, Stealthy, Nimble Fingers, Deft Hands, Run, Danger Sense, Alertness Spellcasters can as well take a metamagic feat, given they match the prerequisits. - A character can only take levels in a new class/prestige class, when he finds a teacher. - Wizards must specialise and half (round down) of their spells per grade must be from their area of expertise. Therefor, they receive a bonus spell from this area at every odd numbered level. - Sorcerers receive Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at level 3. - Improved Toughness replaces Toughness (in regards of prerequisits for other feats and prestige classes as well). It also loses its prerequisits. - Spell slots can be traded 2:1 for one spellslot of the next higher grade. The spell needs a fullround action to cast and a spellcraft-check DC 10 + new grade + number of spells used to build the higher level spell. Grade 0 counts as 0.5 in regards to this ability. - For intuitive spellcasters there are some additions to this: In the table, how many spells they know, the first "-" is replaced with "1". If they use any from metamagic and use a higher slot, there is no additional casting time (so the combination of spells AND the metamagic use only one full round action). - After raging, the barbarian is fatigued for 1 minute per round of rage. - There is another mundane weapon upgrade than masterwork - "massive" - that gives -1 to hit and +1 damage per hand wielding the weapon. Beginning at level 3, characters receive on hero point at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 of the xp necessary for the next level (that's where the interesting stuff begins!). Hero Points can be used to buy special abilities from the following list: - Cost of 1 point - .once per day for 1 round per character level you receive class level + 1/2 character level (round down) for every spell/ability you use. .(1/2 charlevel, round down) per day you can reroll any die before determining whether successful or not. .(1/2 charlevel, round down) per day +2 to the next die roll. - Cost of 2 points - .receive one additional feat. .you receive one class ability from one of your classes up to 4 levels above your level. .a spellcaster counts as one level higher in regards of the number of spells known. - Cost of 3 points - .receive one class ability from any class up to four levels lower than your level. edit: what I almost forgot! We are limited to PHB, DMG and the "Complete" series excluding Psionics, because our GM hates psionics for some odd reason (although I'm trying to get him to allow sth. from BovD). The only five races allowed are Humans, Elves, Dwarfs, Gnomes and Halflings.
Tweedledope 10-25-06, 10:02 AM	Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 Go to town.
dog45 10-25-06, 11:46 PM	This seems unneccessarily complicated. But, its your game. I'd go with a Human Druid w/ the Jack of All Trades bonus feat. Now you can do everything.
LogicNinja 10-26-06, 12:12 AM	Yeah, and spend 3 points to buy the monk's WIS-to-AC as a druid (or even cleric).
Kirech 10-26-06, 12:30 AM	Focused Specialist Gnome Illusionist. You qualify for Shadowcraft Mage immediately, due to the stacking spell mechanic. Save up your Hero Points and start cherry-picking key abilities from PrCs you don't plan to take (Seal Fate, Nightmare Spinner stuff, Spell Power from Ultimate Magus). Make sure to take Skill Mastery and Skill Artistry (spellcraft) from Exemplar (level 1 abilities). Keep pumping your Spellcraft modifier and keep track of the highest level you can safely heighten Silent Image to. Game Broken.
PhoenixInferno 10-26-06, 01:08 AM	Focused Specialist Gnome Illusionist. You qualify for Shadowcraft Mage immediately, due to the stacking spell mechanic. Save up your Hero Points and start cherry-picking key abilities from PrCs you don't plan to take (Seal Fate, Nightmare Spinner stuff, Spell Power from Ultimate Magus). Make sure to take Skill Mastery and Skill Artistry (spellcraft) from Exemplar (level 1 abilities). Keep pumping your Spellcraft modifier and keep track of the highest level you can safely heighten Silent Image to. Game Broken.I'm with this guy. Insightful Reflexes also makes the Divine Oracle's Prescient Sense useful. I don't like the Focused Specialist though.
Kirech 10-26-06, 01:21 AM	...I don't like the Focused Specialist though. That was just for more spell slots to Voltron together. Sorcerer or Beguiler might work, but it would take longer to get higher level slots and therefore easier Spellcraft checks.
Querdenker 10-26-06, 04:40 AM	Very neat ideas so far (I think, I should send our Cleric and Sorcerer over here to get some input :cool: )! I'm going for a character, a little more fighterish. I started a basic fighter and (if the GM allows some BovD stuff) I'm planning on Fighter 5/Warrior of Darkness 9/Disciple of Dispater 6, as I can enter WoD on level 5 and DoD on level 6 (and I only need 6 levels of DoD, as I can buy the higher level class abilities with hero points). The only drawback is the relatively low ability scores I have to deal with...
PhoenixInferno 10-26-06, 04:42 AM	NO! Odd levels of Fighter are BAD! BAD POSTER! BAD! Where's my rolled up newspaper? :)
Querdenker 10-26-06, 04:51 AM	NO! Odd levels of Fighter are BAD! BAD POSTER! BAD! Where's my rolled up newspaper? :) :eek: I really missed that.... alternatives?
GaffeR 10-26-06, 04:57 AM	:eek: I really missed that.... alternatives? ANYTHING that gives +1 BAB. Hell, ANYTHING really. All Fighter 5 gives is d10 HD and BAB. It is CRAP. Taking odd levels of fighter gets you beat around here.
Vikjunk 10-26-06, 05:13 AM	ANYTHING that gives +1 BAB. Hell, ANYTHING really. All Fighter 5 gives is d10 HD and BAB. It is CRAP. Taking odd levels of fighter gets you beat around here. Sometimes you have to eat it unless you’re a human, a half-elf, a dwarf, or a few other races that are non-core. If not the XP penalty can be killer if not careful. Yes, you can find a prestige class but sometimes it isn't worth the requirements. I’ll admit it is a smart idea to try to avoid odd levels of fighter if you can, but just keep in mind don’t shoot yourself in the foot trying to avoid it. At least this campaign looks like he can multiclass without worrying.
Querdenker 10-26-06, 05:18 AM	ANYTHING that gives +1 BAB. Hell, ANYTHING really. All Fighter 5 gives is d10 HD and BAB. It is CRAP. Taking odd levels of fighter gets you beat around here. If I just pick anything, I suddenly get a nice -20% xp penalty.
Vikjunk 10-26-06, 05:32 AM	If I just pick anything, I suddenly get a nice -20% xp penalty. Not if you are a human or dwarf if your DM is still using the favored class rules. They will let you ignore your fighter levels so that you can pick up another class if you want without worrying about the xp penalty.
Querdenker 10-26-06, 05:53 AM	Not if you are a human or dwarf if your DM is still using the favored class rules. They will let you ignore your fighter levels so that you can pick up another class if you want without worrying about the xp penalty. Ok, my fault. Until five minutes ago, I didn't know, prestige classes don't count in regards of multiclassing rules. :eek:
Aufenshauft 10-26-06, 09:30 AM	Remember, if he is starting at 3rd level, you are not going to see this campaign past 7-8th level. Watch those 20 level build ideas. I would want to get more clarification on the 3 hero point buy effect, as it is obviously the most broken ability in the listing. If he limits the 'level' to the effective level you would have to be for the class, then that might not be as broken, but if it is the way you wrote it, then we are talking massively broken. Chamelion's floating feat - available at 6th level (2nd level chamelion, taken at -4 levels) Chamelion's ability focus - available at 8th level Monk wisdom to AC - 5th level Duelist/Invisible Blade int to AC - 5th level Paladin Cha to saves - 5th level Initiate of sevenfold veil red veil - 5th level Illithid Savant... 5th level Soul Eater level draining - 5th level and you don't have to be evil Just be cautious about abilities that rely on class levels to be good, like smiting, chamelion's spellcasting ability, or sneak attack. Yeah, this is a cherrypicker's dream. I would suggest Druid or some other class that has a lot of class abilities, then use all your hero points to pick up a higher level ability, then switch classes to something else. Example: Druid 3, pick up Druid 7 wild shaping ability. Then take fighter 2 or Monk 2 and get class abilities from other classes (I like chamelion, soul eater, or illithid savant) then it should be easy to do Horizon Walker 1, and use the hero points to get plane shifting early By late 7th level you have a short duration shapeshifting monster that can do level draining punce attacks at range at will. Edit: Sorry, Sorry, didn't see the book rules. Still, getting class abilities at lower level than you should is already a powerful ability. Take my example above and remove the level draining, but add higher level abilities just as-is. You can still have a battlefield control pouncer on the loose. I could see some real power coming in if you start doing 1 level in multiple classes and become a fighter type by taking the 2-5th level ability from all combat oriented classes.
fnord 10-26-06, 10:16 AM	Chamelion's floating feat - available at 6th level (2nd level chamelion, taken at -4 levels) Chamelion's ability focus - available at 8th level Monk wisdom to AC - 5th level Duelist/Invisible Blade int to AC - 5th level Paladin Cha to saves - 5th level Initiate of sevenfold veil red veil - 5th level Illithid Savant... 5th level Soul Eater level draining - 5th level and you don't have to be evil Think Big. Think Epic Prestige Classes. Agent Retriever's Force Sphere is available at 7th Guardian Paramount's Call Back is available at 9th High Proselytizer's Proselytize is available at 5th
Querdenker 10-26-06, 10:43 AM	Honestly, I don't know how our GM intended the possibility to get other classes abilities to work in regards of prestige classes. Maybe something even got lost translating it (had to translate it from german). But I'm pretty sure, he won't allow to take abilities from epic prestige classes prior to reaching epic levels. :rolleyes:
Ardras 10-26-06, 11:26 AM	Well, you could of course just post the original rules here and get some help translating them ^^ from me e.g :D Nevertheless, with those hero point you can buy feats, your max skill level is class +5, so remember not to worry about PrC reqs anymore. All of a sudden they can be met at an instant. But what a character do you actually want ? You said more fighter, but honestly, with those houserules, and without ToB on you list of books, you might as well just give up and play a caster anyway....
Kirech 10-26-06, 11:50 AM	...I'm going for a character, a little more fighterish... With the power he's giving spellcasters, if you're not one, you're not as good as you could be. Try this gish: Bard4/[Full BAB]3/EldritchKnight1/SublimeChord1/EldritchKnight9/&c. You'll have to invest in Cha, but it's a good investment. Grab Cha to saves from Paladin, Turn Undead from Cleric, and some nice buffing Divine feats.
Ardras 10-26-06, 12:01 PM	With the power he's giving spellcasters, if you're not one, you're not as good as you could be. Try this gish: Bard4/[Full BAB]3/EldritchKnight1/SublimeChord1/EldritchKnight9/&c. You'll have to invest in Cha, but it's a good investment. Grab Cha to saves from Paladin, Turn Undead from Cleric, and some nice buffing Divine feats. Also, for heaven's sake, grab Divine Metamagic asap. You'll have more than enough feats, hell, you could even buy some extra turning feats with those hero points.
Kirech 10-26-06, 12:17 PM	Hah, I forgot to add Divine casting: Bard4/Ur-Priest4/SublimeChord1/FochlucanLyrist10/&c. You still have gishworthy BAB, but you'll have to figure out something to do with those last 4 divine caster levels from FL.
PhoenixInferno 10-26-06, 01:26 PM	Also, for heaven's sake, grab Divine Metamagic asap. You'll have more than enough feats, hell, you could even buy some extra turning feats with those hero points.Divine Metamagic only applies to divine spells. See the eratta.
Endarire 10-26-06, 04:43 PM	Bard4/Ur Priest2/Mystic Theurge2/Sublime Chord2/Fochluran10 -EE
Senevri 10-26-06, 05:13 PM	Looks like fun house rules... kinda favors the casters, but that's not such a big problem in actual gameplay.
Querdenker 10-27-06, 07:05 AM	Well, you could of course just post the original rules here and get some help translating them ^^ from me e.g :D Here they are as our GM gave them to us. House Rules (pdf) (http://synapsis.dynalias.com/Temp/Hausregeln.pdf) I think I really should send our spellcasters a link to this thread. Maybe we should have made the whole party spellcasters... :D
X-Codes 10-27-06, 09:18 AM	Human Bard 16/Fighter 4. (13 S, 8 D, 14 C, 14 I, 8 W, 15 Ch) 1) Insightful Reflexes, Force of Personality 2) Jack of all Trades 3) Power Attack, Extend Spell (1/2 charlevel, round down) per day you can reroll any die before determining whether successful or not. 4) Lingering Song (1 saved) 5) Turn Undead (Cleric) (1 saved) 6) Divine Might, Divine Shield (2 saved) 7) Divine Grace (Paladin), Extra Turning 8) Evasion (Monk) 9) Mettle (Hexblade), Extra Turning 10) EWP (pick one you like) (1 saved) 11) Sacred Healing, Extra Turning 12) Armored Mage (Medium), Battlecaster ... 14) Mass Suggestion (Bard) ... 16) Inspire Courage +4 (Bard) ... Theres so much you can do that I just don't know what to do beyond 12th level other than Mass Suggestion and Inspire Courage +4. Somehow get a Fighter level early to pick up Heavy Armor Prof.
Querdenker 10-31-06, 08:47 AM	Ok, my fault. Until five minutes ago, I didn't know, prestige classes don't count in regards of multiclassing rules. :eek: btw, where do I find that in the rules? :confused:
Kirech 10-31-06, 10:15 AM	http://d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm Last sentence of the first paragraph.
Querdenker 10-31-06, 10:45 AM	http://d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm Last sentence of the first paragraph. Accept my humble thanks! :)
ShneekeyTheLost 10-31-06, 11:30 AM	Here they are as our GM gave them to us. House Rules (pdf) (http://synapsis.dynalias.com/Temp/Hausregeln.pdf) I think I really should send our spellcasters a link to this thread. Maybe we should have made the whole party spellcasters... :D Okay, assuming one can only use Hero Points to obtain class abilities from Core classes (because anything else is sheer cheeze), I present the following build for your perusal: Human Barb3 Stats of Note: Str, Dex, Con, Wis Ditch Cha and Int, but don't hurt your skill points too bad with negs. Following abilities you want to grab: AC Bonus as per Monk. See if you can arrange to not only get Wis to AC, but get +1 AC per 5 levels, as written in the ability description on the SRD. Evasion As per 2nd level Monk or Rogue Don't bother with Armor, it'll just slow you down. You will be a tank who will be practically immune to nukes (thanks to Evasion) and your AC will not suffer. Rage and charge in. Build as per normal Thog Smash build.