Breathing Radioactive Fire: Best methods? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Breathing Radioactive Fire: Best methods? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Noria Merfolk Mage
03-06-06, 01:48 PM I'm turning all the various methods of gaining a breath weapon through my head, but I'm still unsure as to which is the best option, or if it varies by situation.

The 2 main ones that I can see are the Dragon Breath spell, last seen in the Spell Compendium, and the DragonHeart Mage. The D-heart can do up to 27d6, but that's burning away a 9th level spell slot each time. He can do less though, it's flexible, it works at will and you get it fairly early. The Spell only does 10d8 base, and only lasts 1 rnd/lvl (with a delay of d4 rounds per breath), but you get to pick your energy type on the fly, or get sleep, slow or paralysis effects, so it's flexible in that regard. it's difficult to metamagic though, Twin Spell and Energy Admixture don't work, but a sorceror could maximise and empower it for 10d8/2 +80, which isn't atrocious. The real trick would be to Persist it, so an incantrix or DMM Cleric is probably going to get the most mileage out of it.

Any thoughts, or any alternatives I missed?
Surreal
03-06-06, 02:07 PM I'm pretty sure I've heard references to the new book Races of the Dragon that can get you a permanent breath weapon...
RadicalTaoist
03-06-06, 02:27 PM See my sig - 'Metabreath options for sorcerors' under Ideas and Collections.
FromTheShadows
03-06-06, 02:54 PM If you have access to Dragon, the latest issue (#341) contains a PrC (Thrall of Baphomet) that eventually grants a breath weapon that maxes out at a 10d6 (acid, cold or fire) 50ft. line useable at will every d4 rounds.

The class is combat-focused (at least as far as I can see), and it offers a non-magic solution to gaining a breath weapon.
Noria Merfolk Mage
03-06-06, 03:49 PM Here's a level-by-level damage analysis I've been meaning to do for a sorceror using these methods.

1st level: Draconic Breath does 2d6 damage to Lesser Orb's 1d8, and potentially to more than 1 target.

4th level: 1st levels spells still equal 2d6 breath, but Lesser Orbs are doing 2d8 (albient to 1 target) and Burning Hands is doing 4d6 (but with nothing like the AoE). Scorching Ray does the same damage if sacrificed, but to more people (but then it has a save).

6th level: You could have taken your first level of Dragonheart mage by now. 1st level spells are now easily beating out Breath for damage, but not for area. 2nd level spells are still a fair trade. Fireball is doing 6d6 (5d6 for a dragonheart, but he can't cast it yet) as is the breath, so it's essentially a choice of blast shape.

8th level: Scorching Ray is now 8d6ing one target or 4d6ing 2, so Breath is still viable if you want AoE instead of damage on 1 person. 3rd and 4th level spells are doing 8d6 in an area (7d6 for a D-heart), so only 4th level should be sacrificed if you want efficiency. The Dragon Breath spell appears, only doing 4d8.

10th level: 3rd and 4th level spells have left the Feat behind, and Cone of Cold has twice the area, so the Feat looks weak at this level, although maybe you still want to use the odd 2nd level spell on it. The Spell does 5d8.

12th level: A full caster's Feat bounces back somewhat, keeping pace with Olituke's Freezing Sphere as an AoE option, but probably not hitting as many targets as Chain Lightning. Scorching ray is now doing 12d6 or 4d6 to 3 targets, so the usefulness of sacrificing 2nd level slots is much lower except in odd circumstances. From now on, a standard sorceror is probably better off using his spells rather than the feat, but it might not be a total loss if it qualifies him for other Draconic feats.
The Spell is doing 6d8, and can be empowered for an average damage of 40 damage, close to the average for a 12d6 spell of the same level. Add metabreath spells and you can get a big bang for your buck.
A dragonheart mage is now a full 2 caster levels behind, but his Feat is now giving him d8s. This makes his 5th level spells better choices for using with the Feat and 4th level is more of a tossup (8d8 vs. 10d6). This gets broken if you take Practised Spellcaster though, swinging the favour back to regular spells.

14th level: Feat stays pace with Delayed Blast Fireball for 14d6 (average 49). Spell does 7d8 and could be maximised to 56 damage.
Dragonheart Mage is in much the same position as last time: Practised Spellcaster will make him wish he hadn't taken the PrC at all.

16th level: The Feat laughs at Polar Rays, but it's pretty late in the game. A Maximised Dragon Breath does 64 damage, not bad.
The Dragonheart Mage was got his capping class feature, doing 3d6 per spell level. His 6th and 7th level spells are better off sacrificed, and his 5th levels break even. His 4th levels are back in action as feat fuel too. Also, Practised Spellcaster no longer rains on his parade. He's still 2 levels casting behind though, and it was a long road in getting here.

18th level: The Feat dies to Meteor Swarms 32d6. Maximised Empowered Dragon Breath is giving us 9d8/2+72 damage, not as much as the Swarm but still useable. D-heart's Polar Ray is pipped masterfully by Breath, but he's missing those 9th level spells now.

20th Level. The Feat's got nothing unless you're a D-heart, and even then you've only just got 9th level spells. You get good milage out of your lesser spells but it's been a long bumpy road getting here. The Metamagiced spell caps at 5d8+80, 102 average damage, not too bad.

Verdict: I didn't realise just how underpowered Draconic Breath gets so quickly. If it weren't for the Synergy with the other Draconic feats I don't think anyone should take it. Still, I can think of worse things to have at lower levels. But the seeming winner is definitely the Dragon Breath spell, given the proviso that that's how it interacts with metamagic: Some DMs may prevent metamagic from working using semantics. Still, since you can combo it with metabreath spells, it's still a nice mid-level spell.
cyberpunks
03-06-06, 04:08 PM Hey Noria!

I found an interesting way to get a breath weapon (every 2d4 rounds)that grows with HD, for LA +3 Recently.

You Need two templates. Dustform(LA+2, Sandstorm), and Soulfused (LA+1,Magic of Incarnum)

Dustform grants you a breath weapon(but sets your int&con to -)
Soulfused undoes the int and con.

A Soulfused Dustform Azurin (for example) gets

Soulfused Dustform
Construct (Living construct)
Breath Weapon, 2d4 rounds, 1d6/HD, Cha based save
Blindsight
DR5/Magic
STR+4,CHA+4,Int 3,Con 10
1D6 Slam Attack
Natural Armor +5
Essentia 2+1/6HD
2 Feats
Deathson
03-06-06, 04:08 PM It's worth noting that the dragonheart mage is, IIRC, not vulnerable to SR. This can oftentimes make it better than an evoc spell (which you compred it to). Try comparing it to conj spells (Melfs? ick) if you want a true comparison, in that sense.
Noria Merfolk Mage
03-06-06, 05:09 PM RadicalTaoist: I've seen that thread before, and liked it a lot. In fact I was hoping this could be a kind of update for it, with the Spell Compendium and Races of the Dragon coming out since then.

Deathson: That's a very good point, and looking it up, it seems the same is true for Dragon Breath. I didn't mean to say Draconic Breath was useless, I simply said that it's not as efficient a damage machine as the equivalent level of spell. It's still a great backup trick.
Dragonheart Mage is still fairly gimped though, from a CO standpoint (I'd still play one since they're so cool).

cyberpunks: Looks cool, but I'm not a fan of Soulborn contruct because of the low con. I'd rather just be a non-living construct and keep the immunities, if I could.

FromTheShadows: The Thrall of Baphomet is indeed a cool class, and I'll show it to the DM of the next Vile campaign I play. Still, the breath is only 10d6, a combat opener and impromptu ranged weapon rather than a character focus.

Surreal: There are a couple of options for breath weapons in Races of the Dragon, one being the Dragonheart Mage and his improved Draconic Breath. The other 2 main ones are the Dragon Breath feat which lets a Half-Dragon breath all day, but that's still only 6d8, and the Heart Dragonborn's breath weapon, which will get to 7d8 pre-epic, and can change energy type with each use. They're a little low for your sole source of damage, but handy nonetheless.

Interesting point: What are people's readings of the Breath Weapon of the Dragon Samurai in the Miniatures Handbook? Would it continually boost your existing breath weapon if you had an at-will one, or is it a mere once-a-day boost regardless?
Noria Merfolk Mage
03-06-06, 05:15 PM I'vegot Maximised Empowered Dragon Breath, cast the same round as Breath Weapon Admixture, for 10d8+160 damage in 1 round, at the cost of 2 9th level spells (1 previously cast, one burned for a damage boost). Can anyone improve on that?
Noria Merfolk Mage
03-07-06, 03:37 PM Bump. Anyone else have any thoughts?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Noria Merfolk Mage 03-06-06, 01:48 PM	I'm turning all the various methods of gaining a breath weapon through my head, but I'm still unsure as to which is the best option, or if it varies by situation. The 2 main ones that I can see are the Dragon Breath spell, last seen in the Spell Compendium, and the DragonHeart Mage. The D-heart can do up to 27d6, but that's burning away a 9th level spell slot each time. He can do less though, it's flexible, it works at will and you get it fairly early. The Spell only does 10d8 base, and only lasts 1 rnd/lvl (with a delay of d4 rounds per breath), but you get to pick your energy type on the fly, or get sleep, slow or paralysis effects, so it's flexible in that regard. it's difficult to metamagic though, Twin Spell and Energy Admixture don't work, but a sorceror could maximise and empower it for 10d8/2 +80, which isn't atrocious. The real trick would be to Persist it, so an incantrix or DMM Cleric is probably going to get the most mileage out of it. Any thoughts, or any alternatives I missed?
Surreal 03-06-06, 02:07 PM	I'm pretty sure I've heard references to the new book Races of the Dragon that can get you a permanent breath weapon...
RadicalTaoist 03-06-06, 02:27 PM	See my sig - 'Metabreath options for sorcerors' under Ideas and Collections.
FromTheShadows 03-06-06, 02:54 PM	If you have access to Dragon, the latest issue (#341) contains a PrC (Thrall of Baphomet) that eventually grants a breath weapon that maxes out at a 10d6 (acid, cold or fire) 50ft. line useable at will every d4 rounds. The class is combat-focused (at least as far as I can see), and it offers a non-magic solution to gaining a breath weapon.
Noria Merfolk Mage 03-06-06, 03:49 PM	Here's a level-by-level damage analysis I've been meaning to do for a sorceror using these methods. 1st level: Draconic Breath does 2d6 damage to Lesser Orb's 1d8, and potentially to more than 1 target. 4th level: 1st levels spells still equal 2d6 breath, but Lesser Orbs are doing 2d8 (albient to 1 target) and Burning Hands is doing 4d6 (but with nothing like the AoE). Scorching Ray does the same damage if sacrificed, but to more people (but then it has a save). 6th level: You could have taken your first level of Dragonheart mage by now. 1st level spells are now easily beating out Breath for damage, but not for area. 2nd level spells are still a fair trade. Fireball is doing 6d6 (5d6 for a dragonheart, but he can't cast it yet) as is the breath, so it's essentially a choice of blast shape. 8th level: Scorching Ray is now 8d6ing one target or 4d6ing 2, so Breath is still viable if you want AoE instead of damage on 1 person. 3rd and 4th level spells are doing 8d6 in an area (7d6 for a D-heart), so only 4th level should be sacrificed if you want efficiency. The Dragon Breath spell appears, only doing 4d8. 10th level: 3rd and 4th level spells have left the Feat behind, and Cone of Cold has twice the area, so the Feat looks weak at this level, although maybe you still want to use the odd 2nd level spell on it. The Spell does 5d8. 12th level: A full caster's Feat bounces back somewhat, keeping pace with Olituke's Freezing Sphere as an AoE option, but probably not hitting as many targets as Chain Lightning. Scorching ray is now doing 12d6 or 4d6 to 3 targets, so the usefulness of sacrificing 2nd level slots is much lower except in odd circumstances. From now on, a standard sorceror is probably better off using his spells rather than the feat, but it might not be a total loss if it qualifies him for other Draconic feats. The Spell is doing 6d8, and can be empowered for an average damage of 40 damage, close to the average for a 12d6 spell of the same level. Add metabreath spells and you can get a big bang for your buck. A dragonheart mage is now a full 2 caster levels behind, but his Feat is now giving him d8s. This makes his 5th level spells better choices for using with the Feat and 4th level is more of a tossup (8d8 vs. 10d6). This gets broken if you take Practised Spellcaster though, swinging the favour back to regular spells. 14th level: Feat stays pace with Delayed Blast Fireball for 14d6 (average 49). Spell does 7d8 and could be maximised to 56 damage. Dragonheart Mage is in much the same position as last time: Practised Spellcaster will make him wish he hadn't taken the PrC at all. 16th level: The Feat laughs at Polar Rays, but it's pretty late in the game. A Maximised Dragon Breath does 64 damage, not bad. The Dragonheart Mage was got his capping class feature, doing 3d6 per spell level. His 6th and 7th level spells are better off sacrificed, and his 5th levels break even. His 4th levels are back in action as feat fuel too. Also, Practised Spellcaster no longer rains on his parade. He's still 2 levels casting behind though, and it was a long road in getting here. 18th level: The Feat dies to Meteor Swarms 32d6. Maximised Empowered Dragon Breath is giving us 9d8/2+72 damage, not as much as the Swarm but still useable. D-heart's Polar Ray is pipped masterfully by Breath, but he's missing those 9th level spells now. 20th Level. The Feat's got nothing unless you're a D-heart, and even then you've only just got 9th level spells. You get good milage out of your lesser spells but it's been a long bumpy road getting here. The Metamagiced spell caps at 5d8+80, 102 average damage, not too bad. Verdict: I didn't realise just how underpowered Draconic Breath gets so quickly. If it weren't for the Synergy with the other Draconic feats I don't think anyone should take it. Still, I can think of worse things to have at lower levels. But the seeming winner is definitely the Dragon Breath spell, given the proviso that that's how it interacts with metamagic: Some DMs may prevent metamagic from working using semantics. Still, since you can combo it with metabreath spells, it's still a nice mid-level spell.
cyberpunks 03-06-06, 04:08 PM	Hey Noria! I found an interesting way to get a breath weapon (every 2d4 rounds)that grows with HD, for LA +3 Recently. You Need two templates. Dustform(LA+2, Sandstorm), and Soulfused (LA+1,Magic of Incarnum) Dustform grants you a breath weapon(but sets your int&con to -) Soulfused undoes the int and con. A Soulfused Dustform Azurin (for example) gets Soulfused Dustform Construct (Living construct) Breath Weapon, 2d4 rounds, 1d6/HD, Cha based save Blindsight DR5/Magic STR+4,CHA+4,Int 3,Con 10 1D6 Slam Attack Natural Armor +5 Essentia 2+1/6HD 2 Feats
Deathson 03-06-06, 04:08 PM	It's worth noting that the dragonheart mage is, IIRC, not vulnerable to SR. This can oftentimes make it better than an evoc spell (which you compred it to). Try comparing it to conj spells (Melfs? ick) if you want a true comparison, in that sense.
Noria Merfolk Mage 03-06-06, 05:09 PM	RadicalTaoist: I've seen that thread before, and liked it a lot. In fact I was hoping this could be a kind of update for it, with the Spell Compendium and Races of the Dragon coming out since then. Deathson: That's a very good point, and looking it up, it seems the same is true for Dragon Breath. I didn't mean to say Draconic Breath was useless, I simply said that it's not as efficient a damage machine as the equivalent level of spell. It's still a great backup trick. Dragonheart Mage is still fairly gimped though, from a CO standpoint (I'd still play one since they're so cool). cyberpunks: Looks cool, but I'm not a fan of Soulborn contruct because of the low con. I'd rather just be a non-living construct and keep the immunities, if I could. FromTheShadows: The Thrall of Baphomet is indeed a cool class, and I'll show it to the DM of the next Vile campaign I play. Still, the breath is only 10d6, a combat opener and impromptu ranged weapon rather than a character focus. Surreal: There are a couple of options for breath weapons in Races of the Dragon, one being the Dragonheart Mage and his improved Draconic Breath. The other 2 main ones are the Dragon Breath feat which lets a Half-Dragon breath all day, but that's still only 6d8, and the Heart Dragonborn's breath weapon, which will get to 7d8 pre-epic, and can change energy type with each use. They're a little low for your sole source of damage, but handy nonetheless. Interesting point: What are people's readings of the Breath Weapon of the Dragon Samurai in the Miniatures Handbook? Would it continually boost your existing breath weapon if you had an at-will one, or is it a mere once-a-day boost regardless?
Noria Merfolk Mage 03-06-06, 05:15 PM	I'vegot Maximised Empowered Dragon Breath, cast the same round as Breath Weapon Admixture, for 10d8+160 damage in 1 round, at the cost of 2 9th level spells (1 previously cast, one burned for a damage boost). Can anyone improve on that?
Noria Merfolk Mage 03-07-06, 03:37 PM	Bump. Anyone else have any thoughts?