Post/Author/DateTime	Post
opticassault 11-14-03, 03:55 PM	While i'm sure this isn't a new character concept by a longshot, I'd like to try to optimize this character fully: Feral Insectile Half Ogre Barb1/Ftr4/Berserk1/Frenzied Berserker10 Ability scores (based on 40 point buy) Str 18 (base) + 6 (half ogre) + 4 (feral) + 6 (belt of giant strength) + 5 (tome of strength +5) +4 (level increases)= 43 Dex 16 (base) -2 feral - 2 half ogre +4 insectile = 16 Con 16 (base) +2 (feral) + 2 (half ogre) = 20 Wis 10 (base) +2 feral -2 half ogre +2 insectile = 12 Int 8 (base) -4 feral -2 half ogre = 2 Cha 8 (base) -2 half ogre = 6 Feats: 1 Snow Tiger Berserker 2 Power Attack 3 Destructive Rage 3 Cleave 5 Weapon Focus (Greatsword) 6 Intimidating Rage 9 Extra Raging 12 Power Lunge 15 Weapon Spec (Greatsword) 18 Extra Raging Important Items: Belt of Giant strength +6 Tome of Strength +5 +5 vicious keen valorus vicious screaming acidic 6 handed huge greatsword Rhino Hide Armor Full attack after a charge while raging, berserked, frenzied, and battlewined (67 str) = 16 (base attack) + 28 (strength) + 5 (weapon bonus) + 1 (weapon focus) + 2 (charging) = +52/+52/+47/+42/+37 and damage = (2d8 + 98 (str) + 5 (weapon bonus) +2 (weapon spec) + 6d6 for a normal attack) 4d8 + 294 (str) + 10 (weapon bonus) + 4 (weapon specialization) + 6d6 = 324 per attack * 5 attacks = 1620 average damage on a full attack. I'm sure this would be even higher if he was mounted, using a lance and spirited charging, but i'm not sure if you can use snow tiger berserker while mounted. Ignoring the infeasability of a Nordic Pantheon worshipping Rashemi half-ogre feral insect barbarian walking around the realms, I'd like to see what we can do to make this better. Don't bother with the "this makes no sense RP wise" or "i'd never allow this in my game" comments, because this is a theory build anyway (I've already banned a character like this from one of my own campaigns). I'm also wondering if you still get full charging damage bonus for the full attack after a snow tiger charge. I don't see anything to the contrary, but I'm kind of leery of how fast the damage can build up.
Funny Slaughter 11-14-03, 09:18 PM	bah, i'd never allow this in my game. SCNR, Funny
draegl0th 11-14-03, 09:22 PM	First of all, Snow Tiger Berserker only work with light weapons. Second, you have an epic weapon for a non-epic character. I see no reason to take 10 levels of Frenzied Berserker, unless you're planning to fight with two weapons (which you're obviously not planning on doing). Try the following class/race combination: Feral Half-Minotaur Human Monk/Fighter/Singh Rager Sandals of Tiger Leap x2 damage Valorous Ward Cetus x2 damage Mantis Leap x2 damage Power Lunge x2 Str mod to damage Snow Tiger Berserker -Full Attack Action on a Charge Flurry of Blows -Extra attacks on a Full Attack Action
Kenkai 11-14-03, 09:29 PM	if you are charging i'd rather use a falchion, that gives you a higher chance of getting a critical. the lower damage dice doesn't really make a difference since most of your damage comes from strength.
opticassault 11-15-03, 12:45 PM	+5 valourus (+1) keen (+1) vicious (+1) screaming (+1, 1d6 sonic if I am correct) acidic (+1, 1d6 acid if I am correct.. I never remember what these elemental things are called). Oh, and it isn't vicious twice.:embarrass Damn, I'll have to change it to a longsword, which would be light for this character. The full 10 levels of FB are simply because I need to get to +16 base attack so he can get 5 attacks a round. If there are some other classes with +1 BAB and raging (maybe Singh Rager, but I don't have any of the OA / Rokugan books so I don't know) I'd try to fit them in. That minotaur DOES look nasty... but I don't know the stats for half-minotaur. I was considering dual wielding and holding each weapon with 3 hands for x2 damage with each, but I'm not good with the multiweapon stuff. Edit: Well, it would need to be a scimitar, but that isn't a bad idea... Edit, redux: And holding a light weapon with more than one hand doesn't deal extra damage... back to the drawing board....
opticassault 11-15-03, 12:59 PM	Edit: Bah, I did a bunch of calculations wrong on this, so I'll figure it out later.
SerpentMage 11-15-03, 01:14 PM	If an insectile character cannot gain extra attacks for the extra 4 arms, why would you assume that they could be used to wield a '6-armed' version of a weapon? If they aren't strong/large-enough/whatever to make attacks with, then they shouldn't grant the extra 0.5 str bonus per arm effect with multi-armed versions of weapons...seems reasonable to me.
opticassault 11-15-03, 02:34 PM	It may seem reasonable to you, but it doesn't say it anywhere in the rules. You know what they say about assuming....
Whakapapa 11-15-03, 02:49 PM	edit: *lol* :) my previous comment didn't work :p so this guy is only LA +4?
Ranthanas 11-15-03, 03:55 PM	Someone search for Wizu's Feral Anthropomorphic Giant Squid please. I can't be bothered...
Whakapapa 11-15-03, 05:46 PM	if you wonna get really cheasy, become a werebear, and take levels in werebear race and brownbear race: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a in total you will look at : +32 str, +2 wis, +12 con, +4 dex, +9 natural armor, large size, +many cool abilities now take some levels in...monk for example, you will at level 11 deal out 2d8+21 damage (Assuming you started with 18 str) this is without magical items, with magic: str: 18(starting)+32 (werebear+brownbear)+5(inheret)+6(belt of giant str) =61 str con: 16(starting)+12+5(inheret)+6(amulet of health)=39 con damage on lvl 11 monk with 9 monster levels: 2d8+25 hp: xxx+280 this could be worked out better.... you could also use a huge falchion (you are large) and deal out hella damage with your critical hits...
SerpentMage 11-15-03, 11:27 PM	Originally posted by opticassault It may seem reasonable to you, but it doesn't say it anywhere in the rules. You know what they say about assuming.... From Savage Species under Insectile Template: Attacks: Despite having six arms, insectile creatures gain no additional attacks. I'd say that lends more support to my assumption than to the assumption that an Insectile creature can use those arms to increase the damage of a multi-arm weapon. You do, of course, realize that both arguments (for and against) are based on assumption, right? It never says that you can use those arms in a combative manner, but it does say that they do not grant additional attacks. While it doesn't specifically mention that they aren't able to help deal extra damage with a single weapon, I'd say that it's safer to assume that they cannot do so than to assume that they can...and I at least have some text to back my argument up. Just to nail the coffin securely...the rules regarding using additional arms to add to the damage of a weapon actually refer to 'off-hands' as opposed to additional hands, which assumes that those hands can actually wield weapons (since that is the definition of an off-hand in DnD). In this case, the extra hands cannot wield weapons, so they aren't off-hands and therefore cannot be used to add Str damage to a specially made 6-handed weapon. So, what do they say about assuming? :smirk: P.S. - You know what they say about hubris?
opticassault 11-15-03, 11:45 PM	And you know what they say about arguing on the internet, I hope. Since it could be interpreted openly, let's just leave it at that. Anyway, I'm glad this is generating some replys. I've seen the anthro giant squid stuff before... I might take a look in savage species and work up a build.
SerpentMage 11-16-03, 12:21 AM	Originally posted by opticassault Since it could be interpreted openly, let's just leave it at that. Only if you throw out the rulebooks and make it up as you go along. Originally posted by opticassault And you know what they say about arguing on the internet, I hope. So, if open discourse is so distasteful to you, why even bother posting something for others to discuss on the internet? P.S. - The platitudes are great, but they don't really add to the discussion, so why even bother? P.P.S. - Not that it even matters anymore (since rules apparently don't matter to you), but Feral cannot be applied to either Half-Ogre or Insectile Half-Ogre (the first being a Giant, and the 2nd being an Aberration).
opticassault 11-16-03, 10:12 AM	Ooops. I guess when I was making up the rules for my version of Dungeons and Dragons, I ignored that part. It certainly wasn't just a mistake :rolleyes: You realize that neither of us will be able to prove our viewpoint to the other. Yours is based on an assumption that you can't use the extra arms to hold a weapon. Mine is based on an assumption that you can. You think your assumption is more valid because it says you cannot use the arms to gain extra attacks. I think my assumption is more valid because it doesn't state anywhere that you can't use the extra arms to gain a better strength bonus from holding a weapon. Both are based on what a rulebook says or doesn't say, and unless some errata comes out to the contrary, neither one of us will suddenly decide "oh, he is right, so I will give up." (Savage species is in dire need of errata anyway... half ogre certainly shouldn't be +1 LA) I have no problem posting things for open discourse on the internet. I have a problem posting things for the purposes of an arguement based on opinion, because neither side will be able to convince the other side of their position. That being said, this is the last post on this topic of whether insectile creatures can use their arms for strength bonus or not I will make.
SerpentMage 11-16-03, 11:45 AM	From a logic standpoint, (you did use the word valid) the only logical assumption is that the arms are not combat effective. There is evidence to support that hypothesis and no evidence to support the opposite (a lack of evidence doesn't act as proof of something). Whether it is a sound claim or not remains to be seen (I obviously believe that it is, but you disagree for unknown reasons). That doesn't mean that it's ridiculous to believe the opposite, but one of the main designers of the book (Rich Redman) even said that the template wasn't meant to grant extra attacks. The whole point of me even calling you on this is that you pretty much stated that each of us had provided equal basis for our claims, but you didn't so much as provide a single reference to support the claim that Insectile allows you to gain greater Str bonus to damage with a 6-arm weapon. Sure, you insulted me in a vague manner (the platitudes)...remember, you were the one that came out saying that I was wrong at first, not the other way around: Originally posted by opticassault: It may seem reasonable to you, but it doesn't say it anywhere in the rules. Yeah, and it doesn't say anywhere in the rules that extra arms alone are enough to grant extra Str damage with a weapon designed for more than 2 arms or that Insectile creatures can wield weapons in the arms that 'gain no additional attacks'. To suggest that as a more reasonable alternative, you need to be willing to back your claims up...otherwise, you're just ******* in the wind. ;)
NHdjinn 11-16-03, 12:59 PM	Anyone but me see the intelligence 2? Thats horse level boys. exactly how does this character have anything? He should be fairly confused getting up in the morning. Do what you will, just dont expect anyone to take this creation seriously. NHdjinn
baoban sith 11-16-03, 01:18 PM	wow, kids, go ahead and unbunch your panties...
opticassault 11-16-03, 02:29 PM	Last time I checked, horses and other animals could get up just fine... :D Seriously though, it isn't as if this guy is playable in a real game in the first place.
FarKadeNear 11-16-03, 02:57 PM	Anyone but me see the intelligence 2? Thats horse level boys. exactly how does this character have anything? He should be fairly confused getting up in the morning. Do what you will, just dont expect anyone to take this creation seriously As per the standard rules no character can start with an intellegence lower then 3. if stat mods drop it lower (half-ork is used as an example) you instead start witha 3. so this chars int is 3 not 2. Playable. Just. FKN
SerpentMage 11-16-03, 03:47 PM	You never know, it might be fun having the rest of the party training you to do various tasks...(fun NPC interaction, too; anyone that has played Fallout/Fallout2 would know what I'm talking about, here). ;)