Broken Classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Broken Classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
marrithl2
10-13-06, 10:45 AM Is it just me, or are there classes/Prc out there that if you cherry pick become extrememly borken?

For instance:

Witch Hunter: a level one dip for Mettle? That's insane. the next best is three levels in Hexblade for mettle and arcane resistance

Shiba Protector: A level one dip for No Thought? Wisdom to attack AND damage!! WTF!

While I use these two classes, along with a few other dips here and there to maximize my character's potential... I kinda think it's cheap to get such powerful abilities in one level with little pre-reqs.
jameswilliamogle
10-13-06, 10:51 AM It's true that some classes are poorly designed, but the prereq's are what keeps them in check. Compared to the core base classes that are all front loaded, these 2 don't seem that bad. Shiba Protector is a fairly specialized class that requires long-term planning to get into, and is only really optimal for a select few builds (monks, psywar's, and maybe melee clerics are what comes to mind, of which only psywar's actually have feats to spare). I'm not familiar w/ the Witch hunter.
Tempest Stormwind
10-13-06, 11:02 AM Is it just me, or are there classes/Prc out there that if you cherry pick become extrememly borken?

For instance:

Witch Hunter: a level one dip for Mettle? That's insane. the next best is three levels in Hexblade for mettle and arcane resistance

Shiba Protector: A level one dip for No Thought? Wisdom to attack AND damage!! WTF!

While I use these two classes, along with a few other dips here and there to maximize my character's potential... I kinda think it's cheap to get such powerful abilities in one level with little pre-reqs.
Both in OA, which is 3.0 and considered rather poorly balanced (the real killer there was the Iaijutsu Master).

This argument'd carry more weight if you looked at 3.5 classes instead. (Hint: Arcane and divine PrCs.)
Wilds
10-13-06, 11:13 AM Both in OA, which is 3.0 and considered rather poorly balanced (the real killer there was the Iaijutsu Master).

This argument'd carry more weight if you looked at 3.5 classes instead. (Hint: Arcane and divine PrCs.)

Iaijutsu Master is fricking crazy, i let a player use that prestige class in a short epic campgain i ran. Ya.....bad idea. A simple DC check of like 50ish, which with maxed ranks, high stats and an skill item, gives a free 9d6 damage on the first hit.

Fun class, but scary
rilem
10-13-06, 11:14 AM He's talking about Witch Slayer (ToM), not Witch Hunter (which gets Cha to Saves, not mettle).

And although No Thought is a bit wacko, the feat requirements for Shiba Protector are so odd (and generally counter-productive for most builds) that it's rarely used. I'd prefer to take Soulbow with Zen Archery and not waste another two feats.
Kuroi Kenshi
10-13-06, 02:24 PM Witch Slayer is pretty awesome to take straight to 5 for its repeat disjunction ability, but you don't get mettle until level 2. It's relatively easy to get into the class too =o And it has decent HD, saves, and skills/level.
Surreal
10-13-06, 03:15 PM I like to cherry pick two levels of fighter. :D
ravenkith
10-13-06, 03:17 PM Eff that! 2 levels of Martial Rogue baby, all the way!
Kirby179
10-13-06, 04:40 PM holy broken, a 2-level dip that gives you evasion!?!?!?!

:P
Prominence
10-13-06, 04:50 PM holy broken, a 2-level dip that gives you evasion!?!?!?!

How about monk 2? omg 2 bonus feats, flurry, +1 bab, evasion all for shaving your head and wearing a brown robe!!!
GaffeR
10-13-06, 04:59 PM Cancer Mage 1 can be extremely broken (read: infinite strength)
MoMF 3 can be extremely broken (read: one version of Pun Pun)
Tainted Scholar 1 can be extremely broken (read: nigh-infinite spellcasting)

The 3.0 Soldier of Light was good (Turn undead and Divine Grace in 2 levels)

One has to note the difference between "broken" and "good".
Sir Gummibaerchen
10-13-06, 05:09 PM 3 levels of Incanctatrix
2 levels of Sublime Chord
1 level of Spellsword
1 level of Dragonslayer
2 levels of Deepwarden
2 levels of Totemist

There are a lot of classes that can be cherry picked.
X-Codes
10-13-06, 06:04 PM 3 levels of Incanctatrix
2 levels of Sublime Chord
1 level of Spellsword
1 level of Dragonslayer
2 levels of Deepwarden
2 levels of Totemist

There are a lot of classes that can be cherry picked.
2 levels of Fighter
1 level of Pious Templar
1 level of Sacred Exorcist
1 level of Necrocarnate

Still barely scratching the surface.
FriendlyFrog
10-13-06, 07:52 PM Iaijutsu Master is fricking crazy, i let a player use that prestige class in a short epic campgain i ran. Ya.....bad idea. A simple DC check of like 50ish, which with maxed ranks, high stats and an skill item, gives a free 9d6 damage on the first hit.
It's not that 9d6 that's scary, it's that 9d6+(9*Cha). 9d6 is in itself puny, it's 31,5 damage avaraged, but a 20th level character can easily have 32 charisma. That's 9*11 extra damage for each hit!
ninjarabbit
10-13-06, 08:49 PM Fist of Raziel: full BAB, 9/10 divine spellcasting progression, full smite progression with 5 smites and a bunch of ways to improve your smites, and one of the two feats you need for it is freaking power attack, it's a paladin on steroids

Sublime Chord: might as well be the default 11th level of bard, what's nice it that it allows you to take up to 4 non spellcasting levels and still get 9th level spells
Ikeren
10-13-06, 09:07 PM A one level dip of Sacred Exorcist gives turning, for 1 feat.
A one level dip of Contemplative gives a bonus domain, and another cool ability or two, no feat requirements.
Not broken, but highly useful - especially the turning on a favoured soul to power DMM, which is all around broken.
X-Codes
10-13-06, 09:26 PM Fist of Raziel: full BAB, 9/10 divine spellcasting progression, full smite progression with 5 smites and a bunch of ways to improve your smites, and one of the two feats you need for it is freaking power attack, it's a paladin on steroids

Sublime Chord: might as well be the default 11th level of bard, what's nice it that it allows you to take up to 4 non spellcasting levels and still get 9th level spells
Meh, Sublime Chord is nice, but not the end-all, be-all. High-end Bardic Music can be really nice (DC 20+Charisma Mass Suggestions effectively unlimited times per day? Yes, please!). I agree, however, that theres practically no reason for just about any divine caster with Power Attack to *not* take Fist of Raziel. At level 1 he gains immunity to charms and compulsions!

A one level dip of Sacred Exorcist gives turning, for 1 feat.
A one level dip of Contemplative gives a bonus domain, and another cool ability or two, no feat requirements.
Not broken, but highly useful - especially the turning on a favoured soul to power DMM, which is all around broken.
I don't remember any feat requirements for Sacred Exorcist.
Sir Gummibaerchen
10-14-06, 03:47 AM I agree, however, that theres practically no reason for just about any divine caster with Power Attack to *not* take Fist of Raziel.

Except that he has to be exalted of course. And he has another feat requirement.
Pinky's brain
10-14-06, 04:18 AM As long as it's not brokenly overpowered there is nothing wrong with good dip classes ... ideally all classes would be decent to take all the way, but a class which is good for a dip is still better than classes which are completely useless (which make up the majority). At least they are not a complete waste of paper.
FriendlyFrog
10-14-06, 05:13 AM There are strong classes, and then there are broken classes. Even if things like Sublime chord and Fist of Raziel are pretty damn good, I wouldn't call them broken. Overpowered, perhaps, but not outright broken. Now, Planar shephard and Dweomerkeeper, those prestige classes will brake any game.
Iron Klaw Merc
10-14-06, 05:31 AM You could always just limit players to only one Prc until they have completed it, before they can enter another Prc.
Kuroi Kenshi
10-14-06, 02:58 PM You could always just limit players to only one Prc until they have completed it, before they can enter another Prc.All that does is encourage players to take the PrCs that are actually good to take to full levels (Dweomerkeeper, Incantatrix, Abjurant Champion, Initiatve of the Sevenfold veil, Revenant Blade, Dervish, Frenzied Berserker, Radiant Servant, Planar Shepherd, Illithid Slayer, Chameleon, Fist of Raziel, Witch Hunter, the list goes on) and skip out on all the classes that have some good levels that collectively add up to or come close to the former great PrCs...sometimes. Sometimes all those dips don't even come close to matching the power of those PrCs taken all the way.

It also limits the variety of character types you can make. Most types of hybrid characters get screwed because they have to dip around and carefully arrange their level order to keep pace with straight class types (i.e., Wiz3/Master Specialist10/IotSV7 or hell, just wizard20!) due to most hybrid PrCs being crap as a full package.

And finally, if you look at most of the strongest and/or gamebreaking builds here, they do at least 2 of 4 things:

1) Take all 3 levels of a paragon class
2) Take all 5 levels of a great PrC
3) Take all 10 levels of a great PrC
4) Use all their remaining levels on one great PrC after doing any of the above

In other words most of the strongest builds wouldn't be affected by that house rule much or at all.
Vestigial_Thumb
10-14-06, 04:15 PM Tainted Scholar 1 can be extremely broken (read: nigh-infinite spellcasting)
I veto this.
Slyver
10-14-06, 06:32 PM You could always just limit players to only one Prc until they have completed it, before they can enter another Prc.
This is a completely useless mentality. If used to try to limit power it has absolutely zero effect. All that it actually does it limit roleplaying. If a person wants to play a certain type of character with certain abilities and still be effective they very often will need to "dip". If a person wants to create a character to break the game, in most campaigns they won't have to leave the players handbook.

As for "broken classes". There are very few things that are actually broken, as in, they will break the game if allowed. Many things are abusable. Many, many things. Many more than a person who has the above mentality can possibly realize. There is a distinct difference between broken and abusable. Abusable should absolutely be allowed. If we were to actually attempt to disallow abusable we would all have to be sitting around playing go fish. We sure as hell can't play DnD. The ruleset is so vast, with so many variables the capacity for abuse is inherent in the system. One can not have a system that is both fun to play because of its near limitless variety and unabusable simply due to the same level of complexity being required by both.

What should not be allowed is a level of abuse that breaks the game. That is where the concept of responsible playing (and DMing) comes in. If one knows how to abuse something to this level, one has the capacity to know whether or not they should. (Unless one is a sociopath or 14 years old.)

Slyver
Hanniball
10-14-06, 08:48 PM Is it just me, or are there classes/Prc out there that if you cherry pick become extrememly borken?

I would say it's just you. There is no prestige class, that I'm aware of, that is inherently broken (or, borken, as you put it :)). Combining certain class abilities granted by said Prcs with other class/racial abilities to game-shattering effect is what broken consists of. It takes a certain level of dedication to one ability to produce inherently broken effects.

It is also the basis for optimization. Combining different options to maximize character potential. The mere existance of such a plethora of variant options actually promotes "dipping" or "cherry-picking."

Either way...just my 2 cp
Iron Klaw Merc
10-14-06, 08:50 PM Oh please, most of the point of the one or two level dips is to get as many stackable class features as possible, this way your character has evasion, mettle, arcane resistance, divine grace, and a bunch of other abilities to make your character near imposible to beat. You don't need to dip into half a dozen classes and Prcs to be able to role-play, you can role play a single class just aswell.
PhaedrusXY
10-14-06, 09:03 PM Oh please, most of the point of the one or two level dips is to get as many stackable class features as possible, this way your character has evasion, mettle, arcane resistance, divine grace, and a bunch of other abilities to make your character near imposible to beat. You don't need to dip into half a dozen classes and Prcs to be able to role-play, you can role play a single class just aswell.Did you even read what he said? He said it encourages people to pick only the more powerful prestige classes, that are worth taking 10 levels of, rather than taking combinations of the ones that are good for 1 or 2 levels, but suck for the rest of the levels. And even when you "cherry pick" the weaker PrCs, it often still doesn't yield a character as powerful as taking all the levels of a more powerful Prestige class (like Incantatrix or Initiate of the 7-fold Veil).
Slyver
10-14-06, 09:05 PM Oh please, most of the point of the one or two level dips is to get as many stackable class features as possible, this way your character has evasion, mettle, arcane resistance, divine grace, and a bunch of other abilities to make your character near imposible to beat. You don't need to dip into half a dozen classes and Prcs to be able to role-play, you can role play a single class just aswell.

95% of all characters that have all of those things are going to be easier to kill than a core+complete cleric or a core druid past about level 7 or a core+complete wizard past about level 9.

Maybe you want to roleplay a character that is good at avoiding being hit by spells or other similar effects. A "tough guy" that can scoff at a spellcaster (prior to said spellcaster casting time stop, mdj and shapechange and ripping said tough guy a new one). Seriously, if you think building up a defensive type character is going to break your game, you have a lot to learn about what is possible.

Of course one can roleplay within a single class, but what if someone doesn't want the strictures put upon him by that single class. What if he has a character concept that is to play that "tough to hit with a spell guy". As I said, you aren't going to be breaking any games by dipping. You can only break the game if that is what you are trying to do, and it can be done easier with single classes or full prcs than it can be done by dipping.

Slyver
Vestigial_Thumb
10-16-06, 11:12 AM This can't be all there is.
marrithl2
10-16-06, 11:20 AM I really like:

Monk 2: This is the ****. As stated before. In addition, if you worry about not using flurry of blows because it's worthless at level 2, you can always use UA to get decisive strike instead!
Fighter 2:
Psy Warrior 2:
Hexblade 3:
Feat Rogue 2:
Feat Wizard 2:
--It's redundant to say, but anything with fighter feats is great for two levels--
Shiba Protector:
Witch Slayer: (yeah I meant this one, my bad)
Richmud
10-16-06, 11:38 AM I really like:

Monk 2: This is the ****. As stated before. In addition, if you worry about not using flurry of blows because it's worthless at level 2, you can always use UA to get decisive strike instead!

Decisive strike is in PHB2 not UA
marrithl2
10-16-06, 11:55 AM The main problem I'm having with cherry picking is that no one else in my party is even close to being considered optimized. So my character is either killing everything that the DM sends at us without thinking twice, or everyone else is dying because the DM is trying to challenge me.

The simple solution is to STOP cherry picking, but I can't help it!! :P I see so many possibilities and I just want to play the best I can. I like being able to handle most situations, but I really want to find a good balance with the rest of the party.

--I think I'm going to try to compile as many good level dips that i can and post them. Any more dips you guys can think of to add to the list?--

**Oh yeah, Player's 2. Yer right.**

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
marrithl2 10-13-06, 10:45 AM	Is it just me, or are there classes/Prc out there that if you cherry pick become extrememly borken? For instance: Witch Hunter: a level one dip for Mettle? That's insane. the next best is three levels in Hexblade for mettle and arcane resistance Shiba Protector: A level one dip for No Thought? Wisdom to attack AND damage!! WTF! While I use these two classes, along with a few other dips here and there to maximize my character's potential... I kinda think it's cheap to get such powerful abilities in one level with little pre-reqs.
jameswilliamogle 10-13-06, 10:51 AM	It's true that some classes are poorly designed, but the prereq's are what keeps them in check. Compared to the core base classes that are all front loaded, these 2 don't seem that bad. Shiba Protector is a fairly specialized class that requires long-term planning to get into, and is only really optimal for a select few builds (monks, psywar's, and maybe melee clerics are what comes to mind, of which only psywar's actually have feats to spare). I'm not familiar w/ the Witch hunter.
Tempest Stormwind 10-13-06, 11:02 AM	Is it just me, or are there classes/Prc out there that if you cherry pick become extrememly borken? For instance: Witch Hunter: a level one dip for Mettle? That's insane. the next best is three levels in Hexblade for mettle and arcane resistance Shiba Protector: A level one dip for No Thought? Wisdom to attack AND damage!! WTF! While I use these two classes, along with a few other dips here and there to maximize my character's potential... I kinda think it's cheap to get such powerful abilities in one level with little pre-reqs. Both in OA, which is 3.0 and considered rather poorly balanced (the real killer there was the Iaijutsu Master). This argument'd carry more weight if you looked at 3.5 classes instead. (Hint: Arcane and divine PrCs.)
Wilds 10-13-06, 11:13 AM	Both in OA, which is 3.0 and considered rather poorly balanced (the real killer there was the Iaijutsu Master). This argument'd carry more weight if you looked at 3.5 classes instead. (Hint: Arcane and divine PrCs.) Iaijutsu Master is fricking crazy, i let a player use that prestige class in a short epic campgain i ran. Ya.....bad idea. A simple DC check of like 50ish, which with maxed ranks, high stats and an skill item, gives a free 9d6 damage on the first hit. Fun class, but scary
rilem 10-13-06, 11:14 AM	He's talking about Witch Slayer (ToM), not Witch Hunter (which gets Cha to Saves, not mettle). And although No Thought is a bit wacko, the feat requirements for Shiba Protector are so odd (and generally counter-productive for most builds) that it's rarely used. I'd prefer to take Soulbow with Zen Archery and not waste another two feats.
Kuroi Kenshi 10-13-06, 02:24 PM	Witch Slayer is pretty awesome to take straight to 5 for its repeat disjunction ability, but you don't get mettle until level 2. It's relatively easy to get into the class too =o And it has decent HD, saves, and skills/level.
Surreal 10-13-06, 03:15 PM	I like to cherry pick two levels of fighter. :D
ravenkith 10-13-06, 03:17 PM	Eff that! 2 levels of Martial Rogue baby, all the way!
Kirby179 10-13-06, 04:40 PM	holy broken, a 2-level dip that gives you evasion!?!?!?! :P
Prominence 10-13-06, 04:50 PM	holy broken, a 2-level dip that gives you evasion!?!?!?! How about monk 2? omg 2 bonus feats, flurry, +1 bab, evasion all for shaving your head and wearing a brown robe!!!
GaffeR 10-13-06, 04:59 PM	Cancer Mage 1 can be extremely broken (read: infinite strength) MoMF 3 can be extremely broken (read: one version of Pun Pun) Tainted Scholar 1 can be extremely broken (read: nigh-infinite spellcasting) The 3.0 Soldier of Light was good (Turn undead and Divine Grace in 2 levels) One has to note the difference between "broken" and "good".
Sir Gummibaerchen 10-13-06, 05:09 PM	3 levels of Incanctatrix 2 levels of Sublime Chord 1 level of Spellsword 1 level of Dragonslayer 2 levels of Deepwarden 2 levels of Totemist There are a lot of classes that can be cherry picked.
X-Codes 10-13-06, 06:04 PM	3 levels of Incanctatrix 2 levels of Sublime Chord 1 level of Spellsword 1 level of Dragonslayer 2 levels of Deepwarden 2 levels of Totemist There are a lot of classes that can be cherry picked. 2 levels of Fighter 1 level of Pious Templar 1 level of Sacred Exorcist 1 level of Necrocarnate Still barely scratching the surface.
FriendlyFrog 10-13-06, 07:52 PM	Iaijutsu Master is fricking crazy, i let a player use that prestige class in a short epic campgain i ran. Ya.....bad idea. A simple DC check of like 50ish, which with maxed ranks, high stats and an skill item, gives a free 9d6 damage on the first hit. It's not that 9d6 that's scary, it's that 9d6+(9Cha). 9d6 is in itself puny, it's 31,5 damage avaraged, but a 20th level character can easily have 32 charisma. That's 911 extra damage for each hit!
ninjarabbit 10-13-06, 08:49 PM	Fist of Raziel: full BAB, 9/10 divine spellcasting progression, full smite progression with 5 smites and a bunch of ways to improve your smites, and one of the two feats you need for it is freaking power attack, it's a paladin on steroids Sublime Chord: might as well be the default 11th level of bard, what's nice it that it allows you to take up to 4 non spellcasting levels and still get 9th level spells
Ikeren 10-13-06, 09:07 PM	A one level dip of Sacred Exorcist gives turning, for 1 feat. A one level dip of Contemplative gives a bonus domain, and another cool ability or two, no feat requirements. Not broken, but highly useful - especially the turning on a favoured soul to power DMM, which is all around broken.
X-Codes 10-13-06, 09:26 PM	Fist of Raziel: full BAB, 9/10 divine spellcasting progression, full smite progression with 5 smites and a bunch of ways to improve your smites, and one of the two feats you need for it is freaking power attack, it's a paladin on steroids Sublime Chord: might as well be the default 11th level of bard, what's nice it that it allows you to take up to 4 non spellcasting levels and still get 9th level spells Meh, Sublime Chord is nice, but not the end-all, be-all. High-end Bardic Music can be really nice (DC 20+Charisma Mass Suggestions effectively unlimited times per day? Yes, please!). I agree, however, that theres practically no reason for just about any divine caster with Power Attack to not take Fist of Raziel. At level 1 he gains immunity to charms and compulsions! A one level dip of Sacred Exorcist gives turning, for 1 feat. A one level dip of Contemplative gives a bonus domain, and another cool ability or two, no feat requirements. Not broken, but highly useful - especially the turning on a favoured soul to power DMM, which is all around broken. I don't remember any feat requirements for Sacred Exorcist.
Sir Gummibaerchen 10-14-06, 03:47 AM	I agree, however, that theres practically no reason for just about any divine caster with Power Attack to not take Fist of Raziel. Except that he has to be exalted of course. And he has another feat requirement.
Pinky's brain 10-14-06, 04:18 AM	As long as it's not brokenly overpowered there is nothing wrong with good dip classes ... ideally all classes would be decent to take all the way, but a class which is good for a dip is still better than classes which are completely useless (which make up the majority). At least they are not a complete waste of paper.
FriendlyFrog 10-14-06, 05:13 AM	There are strong classes, and then there are broken classes. Even if things like Sublime chord and Fist of Raziel are pretty damn good, I wouldn't call them broken. Overpowered, perhaps, but not outright broken. Now, Planar shephard and Dweomerkeeper, those prestige classes will brake any game.
Iron Klaw Merc 10-14-06, 05:31 AM	You could always just limit players to only one Prc until they have completed it, before they can enter another Prc.
Kuroi Kenshi 10-14-06, 02:58 PM	You could always just limit players to only one Prc until they have completed it, before they can enter another Prc.All that does is encourage players to take the PrCs that are actually good to take to full levels (Dweomerkeeper, Incantatrix, Abjurant Champion, Initiatve of the Sevenfold veil, Revenant Blade, Dervish, Frenzied Berserker, Radiant Servant, Planar Shepherd, Illithid Slayer, Chameleon, Fist of Raziel, Witch Hunter, the list goes on) and skip out on all the classes that have some good levels that collectively add up to or come close to the former great PrCs...sometimes. Sometimes all those dips don't even come close to matching the power of those PrCs taken all the way. It also limits the variety of character types you can make. Most types of hybrid characters get screwed because they have to dip around and carefully arrange their level order to keep pace with straight class types (i.e., Wiz3/Master Specialist10/IotSV7 or hell, just wizard20!) due to most hybrid PrCs being crap as a full package. And finally, if you look at most of the strongest and/or gamebreaking builds here, they do at least 2 of 4 things: 1) Take all 3 levels of a paragon class 2) Take all 5 levels of a great PrC 3) Take all 10 levels of a great PrC 4) Use all their remaining levels on one great PrC after doing any of the above In other words most of the strongest builds wouldn't be affected by that house rule much or at all.
Vestigial_Thumb 10-14-06, 04:15 PM	Tainted Scholar 1 can be extremely broken (read: nigh-infinite spellcasting) I veto this.
Slyver 10-14-06, 06:32 PM	You could always just limit players to only one Prc until they have completed it, before they can enter another Prc. This is a completely useless mentality. If used to try to limit power it has absolutely zero effect. All that it actually does it limit roleplaying. If a person wants to play a certain type of character with certain abilities and still be effective they very often will need to "dip". If a person wants to create a character to break the game, in most campaigns they won't have to leave the players handbook. As for "broken classes". There are very few things that are actually broken, as in, they will break the game if allowed. Many things are abusable. Many, many things. Many more than a person who has the above mentality can possibly realize. There is a distinct difference between broken and abusable. Abusable should absolutely be allowed. If we were to actually attempt to disallow abusable we would all have to be sitting around playing go fish. We sure as hell can't play DnD. The ruleset is so vast, with so many variables the capacity for abuse is inherent in the system. One can not have a system that is both fun to play because of its near limitless variety and unabusable simply due to the same level of complexity being required by both. What should not be allowed is a level of abuse that breaks the game. That is where the concept of responsible playing (and DMing) comes in. If one knows how to abuse something to this level, one has the capacity to know whether or not they should. (Unless one is a sociopath or 14 years old.) Slyver
Hanniball 10-14-06, 08:48 PM	Is it just me, or are there classes/Prc out there that if you cherry pick become extrememly borken? I would say it's just you. There is no prestige class, that I'm aware of, that is inherently broken (or, borken, as you put it :)). Combining certain class abilities granted by said Prcs with other class/racial abilities to game-shattering effect is what broken consists of. It takes a certain level of dedication to one ability to produce inherently broken effects. It is also the basis for optimization. Combining different options to maximize character potential. The mere existance of such a plethora of variant options actually promotes "dipping" or "cherry-picking." Either way...just my 2 cp
Iron Klaw Merc 10-14-06, 08:50 PM	Oh please, most of the point of the one or two level dips is to get as many stackable class features as possible, this way your character has evasion, mettle, arcane resistance, divine grace, and a bunch of other abilities to make your character near imposible to beat. You don't need to dip into half a dozen classes and Prcs to be able to role-play, you can role play a single class just aswell.
PhaedrusXY 10-14-06, 09:03 PM	Oh please, most of the point of the one or two level dips is to get as many stackable class features as possible, this way your character has evasion, mettle, arcane resistance, divine grace, and a bunch of other abilities to make your character near imposible to beat. You don't need to dip into half a dozen classes and Prcs to be able to role-play, you can role play a single class just aswell.Did you even read what he said? He said it encourages people to pick only the more powerful prestige classes, that are worth taking 10 levels of, rather than taking combinations of the ones that are good for 1 or 2 levels, but suck for the rest of the levels. And even when you "cherry pick" the weaker PrCs, it often still doesn't yield a character as powerful as taking all the levels of a more powerful Prestige class (like Incantatrix or Initiate of the 7-fold Veil).
Slyver 10-14-06, 09:05 PM	Oh please, most of the point of the one or two level dips is to get as many stackable class features as possible, this way your character has evasion, mettle, arcane resistance, divine grace, and a bunch of other abilities to make your character near imposible to beat. You don't need to dip into half a dozen classes and Prcs to be able to role-play, you can role play a single class just aswell. 95% of all characters that have all of those things are going to be easier to kill than a core+complete cleric or a core druid past about level 7 or a core+complete wizard past about level 9. Maybe you want to roleplay a character that is good at avoiding being hit by spells or other similar effects. A "tough guy" that can scoff at a spellcaster (prior to said spellcaster casting time stop, mdj and shapechange and ripping said tough guy a new one). Seriously, if you think building up a defensive type character is going to break your game, you have a lot to learn about what is possible. Of course one can roleplay within a single class, but what if someone doesn't want the strictures put upon him by that single class. What if he has a character concept that is to play that "tough to hit with a spell guy". As I said, you aren't going to be breaking any games by dipping. You can only break the game if that is what you are trying to do, and it can be done easier with single classes or full prcs than it can be done by dipping. Slyver
Vestigial_Thumb 10-16-06, 11:12 AM	This can't be all there is.
marrithl2 10-16-06, 11:20 AM	I really like: Monk 2: This is the ****. As stated before. In addition, if you worry about not using flurry of blows because it's worthless at level 2, you can always use UA to get decisive strike instead! Fighter 2: Psy Warrior 2: Hexblade 3: Feat Rogue 2: Feat Wizard 2: --It's redundant to say, but anything with fighter feats is great for two levels-- Shiba Protector: Witch Slayer: (yeah I meant this one, my bad)
Richmud 10-16-06, 11:38 AM	I really like: Monk 2: This is the ****. As stated before. In addition, if you worry about not using flurry of blows because it's worthless at level 2, you can always use UA to get decisive strike instead! Decisive strike is in PHB2 not UA
marrithl2 10-16-06, 11:55 AM	The main problem I'm having with cherry picking is that no one else in my party is even close to being considered optimized. So my character is either killing everything that the DM sends at us without thinking twice, or everyone else is dying because the DM is trying to challenge me. The simple solution is to STOP cherry picking, but I can't help it!! :P I see so many possibilities and I just want to play the best I can. I like being able to handle most situations, but I really want to find a good balance with the rest of the party. --I think I'm going to try to compile as many good level dips that i can and post them. Any more dips you guys can think of to add to the list?-- Oh yeah, Player's 2. Yer right.