Post/Author/DateTime	Post
canadianguy 11-07-06, 04:31 PM	Having seen the thread on word of pain , which I hope is an editing error, I figured we should see what toher spells can easily be busted. My personal favourites are ones that do ability damage ie ray of stupidity and the shiveirng touch spells. These are spells with no save and do ability damage so go below 1 and nasty stuff happens. Any other spells people feel are broken or easy to abuse.
Caelic 11-07-06, 04:45 PM	Consumptive Field. Coupled with Persistent Spell, it provides a limitless boost to Strength and hit points and a 50% boost in caster level.
GaffeR 11-07-06, 04:47 PM	Anything in the Polymorph line, really.
canadianguy 11-07-06, 04:52 PM	Consumptive is very sweet. Is ability damage in general just too powerful?
Nightbluejh 11-07-06, 05:21 PM	Consumptive is very sweet. Is ability damage in general just too powerful? I don't think it's too pwerfull. I actually think it's very fair and realistic (considering we're talking about magic). The problem comes when a charecter or charecter's are able to too much ability damage too quickly.
Cael 11-07-06, 05:24 PM	Consumptive is very sweet. Is ability damage in general just too powerful? Umm... Feeblemind + Quickened Ray of Stupidity = Dead Fighter...
tear_of_primus 11-07-06, 05:37 PM	Umm... Feeblemind + Quickened Ray of Stupidity = Dead Fighter... Or Shivering Touch...though that is much more adept at killing dragons, well other than White ones...
Edea 11-07-06, 05:39 PM	I hear a lot about the celerity spell and its cheesiness, but I don't know which book it's from.
Cael 11-07-06, 05:42 PM	Or Shivering Touch...though that is much more adept at killing dragons, well other than White ones... You have to be in melee range of the dragon for that to happen. Not a nice place to be. Feeblemind + Ray of Stupidity is a stand-off weapon, which is the attractive part of the combo, IMO. That said, Shivering Touch is better for dragons simply because of their crazy high Will saves. That is why I reserve it for the Fighter types.
Phoenix00 11-07-06, 05:46 PM	I hear a lot about the celerity spell and its cheesiness, but I don't know which book it's from. PHB2. They allow you to take an action now as an immediate action and you gaiin , move, standard, or full action (which one based off the strength of the spell). Next round you will be dazed, even if you don't get around the dazed factor getting more actions now break the game (celerity+timestop if you lose initative for example can't do if your flat footed though). Additionally heavily used metamagic spells with metamagic adjustment. Metamagic level adjustment is designed so it would scale damage and utility comparable to other similar level spells (see the DMG for examples.) When you add arcane thesis, improved metamagic (incantatrix or similar abilities), practical metamagic etc it gets scary. Persistant spells can get broken especially if the total level is higher than you could normally cast.
fnord 11-07-06, 06:03 PM	Umm... Feeblemind + Quickened Ray of Stupidity = Dead Fighter... Umm... Feeblemind allows a will save. You way as well cast Dominate Person, and get a new ally as well. Shivering touch is broken because it doesn't allow a save.
Cael 11-07-06, 06:05 PM	Umm... Feeblemind allows a will save. You way as well cast Dominate Person, and get a new ally as well. Shivering touch is broken because it doesn't allow a save. Dominate don't work on Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, etc...
ChristopherGroves 11-07-06, 07:23 PM	Grease. MHB transpositions. Both of those combo well with other people or affects. Can you Occular Spell Shivering Touch?
JWT 11-07-06, 07:41 PM	Three words. Greater Mighty Wallop. If you have a monk in your party it is all over. Or a character with monkey grip, or a character wielding a large weapon teo handed, or a golliath. Heck, even if you have a cleric with a mace, it is a VERY nasty spell. Forget about combining it with an enlarge spell.
canadianguy 11-07-06, 08:04 PM	Now shiveirng touch is cold based can you energy sub it to effect cold things. Also I use spectral hand with touch spells.
lunarfish 11-07-06, 08:31 PM	I'd like to nominate Fear + Quicken Spell. It's high level (15th minimum), but it works on everything that isn't immune to fear, even if they save.
Yorath_theWolf 11-07-06, 08:41 PM	as I dn'na have LoM in front of me(and am feeling to lazy to go and dig it out) Chris, I _think_ you could only Occular Shivering Touch if you first Reached it. though if you can turn touch spells into rays via Occular Spell, yer golden.
RadicalTaoist 11-07-06, 09:00 PM	Venomfire. That spell alone allows the druid to compete with early versions of the Hulking Hurler power-wise.
Edea 11-07-06, 09:11 PM	Venomfire. That spell alone allows the druid to compete with early versions of the Hulking Hurler power-wise. I went and looked it up, and my jaw almost dropped. +1d6/CL acid damage every time you use your bite attack as a wild shaped poisonous snake? For 1 hour/level? And it's only a level 3 spell?? LOL! Or just use it on a poisonous animal companion, or be a member of a race that has an inherent poison attack...would a maximized venomfire just do an extra 120 points of acid damage per bite at 20th level, for 20 hours? That's a big bang for a Lv.3 spell, even metamagicked to Lv.6. Serpent Kingdoms is so broken :/...
Crimson_Concerto 11-07-06, 09:57 PM	Serpent Kingdoms is so broken :/... *insert own Pun-Pun pun*
Cael 11-07-06, 10:09 PM	Grease. MHB transpositions. Both of those combo well with other people or affects. Can you Occular Spell Shivering Touch? Grease is still my Number 1 spell abuse spell. Encounter ender at level 14. I am seriously considering taking Freezing Fog because of it, only that I prefer to not hit my party members with both the cold and the grease effect...
jameswilliamogle 11-07-06, 10:18 PM	I went and looked it up, and my jaw almost dropped. +1d6/CL acid damage every time you use your bite attack as a wild shaped poisonous snake? For 1 hour/level? And it's only a level 3 spell?? LOL! Or just use it on a poisonous animal companion, or be a member of a race that has an inherent poison attack...would a maximized venomfire just do an extra 120 points of acid damage per bite at 20th level, for 20 hours? That's a big bang for a Lv.3 spell, even metamagicked to Lv.6. Serpent Kingdoms is so broken :/...Heh, try a maximized venomfire while transformed into a fleshraker dinosaur after casting bite of the wearbear. That's a 33 Str, Pounce, 4 attacks, three of which are poisonous and deal venomfire damage. At 20th, that's +26 to hit, and 3 attacks at 131 damage plus a die roll, and a normal attack (do you get extra primary attacks based on BAB???). BUT, I'm a fan of maximized control winds personally. Nothing like a massive area of effect tornado (centered on you, of course) that requires a massive save and normall does 300 damage.
Cael 11-07-06, 10:25 PM	Heh, try a maximized venomfire while transformed into a fleshraker dinosaur after casting bite of the wearbear. That's a 33 Str, Pounce, 4 attacks, three of which are poisonous and deal venomfire damage. At 20th, that's +26 to hit, and 3 attacks at 131 damage plus a die roll, and a normal attack (do you get extra primary attacks based on BAB???). BUT, I'm a fan of maximized control winds personally. Nothing like a massive area of effect tornado (centered on you, of course) that requires a massive save and normall does 300 damage. No, you don't if you are using natural attacks. Natural attacks don't have iteratives.
jameswilliamogle 11-07-06, 10:40 PM	No, you don't if you are using natural attacks. Natural attacks don't have iteratives.OK, I guess you could take Prehensile Tail and weild a weapon with it to get your iterative attacks, but that's one of the poison attacks gone :P
Rhonin the Big 11-07-06, 10:40 PM	Detect Magic ... dear God this is broken!
Brol_The_Mighty 11-07-06, 10:57 PM	FrostFell from the Frostburn book :D
Tenebrous_Sage 11-07-06, 11:19 PM	Detect Magic ... dear God this is broken!Not really, no...
Rhonin the Big 11-07-06, 11:44 PM	Not really, no... Detect Magic can get crazy broken when you highten it. Party wizard with a bit of insanity:BEHOLD, THE ULTIMATE, 9TH LEVEL DETECT MAGIC! I DETECT THE MAGIC OF SIAM! Enough dumb jokes. I despise the Elemental Orb spells from Complete Arcane. No saving throw, No Spell resistance, and a save vs an extra effect that doesnt make sense sometimes. I magically conjure a nonmagical orb of fire that dazes you, I happen to have a buncha those in my backyard! Dee dee dee! And whats the only thing standing in your way to using the Broken Elemental Orb spells? Hitting the lowest AC of everything in the game, the touch AC! So now we got a 4th level spell that caps out 5d6 higher than fireball 1 spell level ago that is not subject to neither evasion, mettle nor game balance ... need I say what 9th level cleric save-or-die it just got hit with? Mordenkainen's Disjunction, any spell that can destroy an artifact and thus make the Gods stop and go "WTF?" needs to be errataed and balanced until Mordenkainen wishes he was never conceived. Let us consider my favorite spell Implosion. It is of the Transmutation school, can be multi-targeted, is NOT a death effect and can turn anything corporeal into a crumpled up piece of scientific nothing. So much for not being able to use Save-or-dies on constructs, but I still love Implosion anyway. Anything with the word Invisibility is just plain overpowered for its level. At low levels there is nothing that can answer it, even if you have See Invis and Invis Purge without strong non-visual senses it requires metagaming to answer invisibility.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-08-06, 12:09 AM	Enough dumb jokes. I despise the Elemental Orb spells from Complete Arcane...No, just no. There have been many threads discussing this before. There are a number of points that I could bring up, but the best one is MAGIC USERS HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO THAN DEAL DAMAGE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE TIME!!! All the orb spells do is give the character a viable combat option in situations where he would otherwise be useless (fighting golems); this in no way unbalances the game anymore than battlefield control/save-or-die/buff/utility spells. On a side note: the orb spells are Conjuration (Creation) spells. You aren't conjuring the orbs; you are creating them.
SageBahamut 11-08-06, 12:25 AM	My favorite right now is Combust. A second level touch-attack spell that deals 1d8 (yes 1d8) per CL? Yes please, with seconds. As for the Orbs of doomy doom, I've never had occasion to cast one. It's not because they aren't good, it's just... yeah I've always had something else to spend my spell slots on. I suppose they'd be tasty in wands. The one I don't understand is Orb of Force. How does one create an essentially nonmagical ball of pure eldritch force? Or Manyjaws. *shiver* Sick. Sick and twisted. And yes, ability-eating spells are fun too. Especially when you give the +10-initiative Rogue a +1 keen spell-storing scimitar and send him after your favorite victim. (Remember, Ability Damage multiplies on critical hits if the spell's delivery method requires an attack roll.)
Rhonin the Big 11-08-06, 12:39 AM	No, just no. There have been many threads discussing this before. There are a number of points that I could bring up, but the best one is MAGIC USERS HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO THAN DEAL DAMAGE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE TIME!!! All the orb spells do is give the character a viable combat option in situations where he would otherwise be useless (fighting golems); this in no way unbalances the game anymore than battlefield control/save-or-die/buff/utility spells. I agree. Id rather throw out a Phantasmal Killer than an elemental orb, but from the perspective of damage vs damage the Orb Spells are way too powerful for 4th level. It caps out 5d6 (average 13.5) higher than 3rd level spells, that alone made me pause for consideration. But when you add direct damage with no save, no SR and a save vs an added effect that in many cases make no sense (lightning that entangles? Fire that dazes? Sounds like elemental orbs of "Dee dee dee!") hitting touch AC doesnt do enough to balance these spells. They're also Conjuration, so my specialist conjurer can give up Evocation and still answer nuke requests. Sure, Id rather prep Phantasmal Killer than the Orb Spells against an opponent with lots of HP but when we're talking damage this just seems too insane for me. Of course I may be wrong.
Senevri 11-08-06, 12:42 AM	Combust caps at 10d8, so compared to Scorching Ray (12d6), it's not so bad.. HOWEVER, levels 3-5 it's awesome. Especially since at those levels critters won't make their saves, yet.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-08-06, 12:42 AM	...The one I don't understand is Orb of Force. How does one create an essentially nonmagical ball of pure eldritch force?Uhhh... Magic? Or Manyjaws. *shiver* Sick. Sick and twisted.The first time I cast this spell the mental image stopped the game for about 15 minutes. I guess my arrogant, dour grey elf wizard producing a horde of gnashing teeth was too much for my poor DM to bear.
Skyrocket 11-08-06, 01:35 AM	Guys, could you please list the books these spells are in to help everyone find them. Some of these sound great but I don't normally play casters so I'm not familer with most of these spells.
Ancillary 11-08-06, 02:02 AM	Combust is powerful, but I have a question. It can affect "Touched creature or combustible object that weighs no more than 24 lb./ level" Does the weight limit apply to creatures or just objects? Command Undead is pretty insane if you run into any undead.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-08-06, 02:15 AM	Consumptive Field-SC Polymorph-PHB Feeblemind-PHB Ray of Stupidity-SC Shivering Touch-Frostburn Celerity-PHBII Grease-PHB Greater Mighty Wallop-Races of the Dragon Venomfire-Serpent Kingdoms Transpositions-MHB Frostfell-Frostburn Orb spells-SC MDJ-PHB Implosion-PHB Combust-SC Manyjaws-SC Control Winds-PHB Rhonin the Big according to the DMG (pg. 35) 15 dice should be the damage cap for a 4th level, single target spell. The spells are short range, require a touch attack (at least 5% chance of missing, probably higher), and don't allow SR. While that last one is pretty good; it doesn't unbalance them when compared to most other spells of 4th level. The secondary effects of some of the spells do make sense, after a fashion. Have you ever been shocked by an electrical outlet? Most people have some trouble moving properly for a short time after that happens, thus the entanglement effect of an Orb of Electricity. The acrid fumes from an Orb of Acid make your character nauseous, thus the sickened condition. etc... It's just a different way of looking at things. Ancillary the weight limit only applies to objects.
Ian Demagi 11-08-06, 02:19 AM	Yeah , the orbs of Doom are heinous especially when a war mage starts applying his sudden feats to them and then uses something like twin spell. Take a greater Orb of Acid -sudden empower, sudden maximize, and spell twin it. Let's grab the old HP10BII. Cast at ultimate level thats 15d6(maximized) x1.5(empowered)+ warmage edge=147 hps*2(spell twin)+=294 points of damage. Yeah, you burned a ninth level slot but you did a whole lot of damage-no save , no resistance, if it hits, you suck it up -enjoy! I know Wizards can be using Sphere of Ultimate Destruction & Time Stop at this point, but I have never been a proponet of Warmages being the only arcane caster in a party either. Getting socked like this is definately a big ouch. My DM is already complaining. Another little combo worked with a Knight & Warmage, Knight prohibits movment & flaming sphere. Monster can't move, damage mounts slowly but surely, for more damage add more spheres-fun, Ian.
Seeker of Truth 11-08-06, 03:32 AM	I'd like to point out Evard's Menacing tentacles Drd-3 from PHBII. Especially when combined with other powerful buff spells like bite of the were bear. The spell give you two tentacles that threaten 10' and can attack once each turn as a free action. Even just adding two attacks a round is handy, but having the attacks be free action adds a great deal of flexibility. Also since each tentacle can make one attack of opportunity the spell basically give a free poor man's combat reflexes. This spell certainly doesn't rise to the level of a celerity or a consumtive field, but I find it a very very handy spell that I've not seen mentioned on these boards.
LordArkan 11-08-06, 04:06 AM	No love (or hate, as it were) for Avasculate or Avascular Mass from Libris Mortis? :D
Senevri 11-08-06, 11:07 AM	Well, ninth spell already has a spell, which by lv20 can do 400d6 untyped damage. allows SR, I think, though. It's a bit situational, but so are all those elemental damage spells, too. The No SR is only good if you can't beat the SR in the first place, which isn't the case usually with proper feats and Assay Spell Resistance. As for constructs... Well, Orb of X spells work, but you could just use Grease + Acid Fog, or eventually Force Cage + Acid Fog. Moonbow is a fifth level spell, that does 30d6 damage, with 3 touch attacks. Has SR, though.
hogarth 11-08-06, 11:24 AM	A thread on broken spells, and no mention of Gate? Weird...
Person_Man 11-08-06, 03:30 PM	For some reason no one has mentioned Wraithstrike from the Spell Comp. yet. 2nd level spell. Swift Action casting time. All melee attacks for that round are touch attacks. Every broken Gish's best friend. If you work with a Ranger or Druid and cast them in the same round, Stinking Cloud + Entagle can completely screw relatively large groups of enemies at relatively low levels.
Edea 11-08-06, 07:16 PM	Also, if for some reason a sorcerer character is immune to daze (a certain Dragonmark comes to mind), arcane fusion is a very easy way to blast through all of your spell slots (using only 1st level spells, however) at once as long as celerity is the "4th or lower" partner in the spell, and at later levels you can mix celerity with any 7th level or lower spell you know with greater arcane fusion (someone has already pointed this out, I want to credit them, forget the name, please add). Both fusion spells are easy to abuse. I admit, I love them both, and I'm not sure if they're truly -broken- or not (the greater one might be).
TrackStar 11-08-06, 07:26 PM	How has no one mentioned Power Word Pain from races of the dragon? 1d6 damage for 4d4 rounds at level 1? Cast and run away and wait for death. No save. No cure.
WombleHunter 11-08-06, 07:37 PM	Better - with the rite from Races of the Dragon, every kobold in the warren can cast Power Word: Pain once per day. And then run off. This does not adjust their CR.
TrackStar 11-08-06, 07:38 PM	OOooOO, what page?!
Tenebrous_Sage 11-08-06, 07:43 PM	Also, if for some reason a sorcerer character is immune to daze (a certain Dragonmark comes to mind), arcane fusion is a very easy way to blast through all of your spell slots (using only 1st level spells, however) at once as long as celerity is the "4th or lower" partner in the spell, and at later levels you can mix celerity with any 7th level or lower spell you know with greater arcane fusion (someone has already pointed this out, I want to credit them, forget the name, please add). Both fusion spells are easy to abuse. I admit, I love them both, and I'm not sure if they're truly -broken- or not (the greater one might be).It's a NOVA!!! FYI: Arcane Fusion doesn't daze the caster, and it only costs 1 spell slot (the one used to cast Arcane Fusion) not 3.
Edea 11-08-06, 07:46 PM	Yah, knew about it costing the one spell slot instead of 3 (making it even more delicious). But...you don't get dazed if celerity is one of the spells in the fusion?! That's new to me O_O.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-08-06, 07:58 PM	Bah, I forgot that Celerity dazes the caster, oh well.
Edea 11-08-06, 08:01 PM	That's quite alright, all that's needed is immunity or even temporary resistance to daze, and boom. I'd hope that's not too difficult to find.
Rhonin the Big 11-08-06, 08:35 PM	I love Celerity abuse! Celerity + 10th level Jade Phoenix Mage's emerald immolation. Daze, what daze? I'm not here! Greater Celerity + timestop + forcecage +cloudkill. Daze, what daze? You just lost!
The_Mad_Linguist 11-08-06, 08:56 PM	Magic means there's a solution to every problem. That solution is Gate.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-08-06, 09:00 PM	Gate is only broken if you if you allow people to use it. ;)
RadicalTaoist 11-08-06, 10:49 PM	Pointing out Gate on a thread for broken spells is like pointing out the common cold on a discussion of diseases that make you cough. Obvious much?
Kulthos 11-09-06, 12:00 AM	The one I don't understand is Orb of Force. How does one create an essentially nonmagical ball of pure eldritch force? I love orb of force. Nothing can resist it. All level 20s need a wand of empowered maximized orb of force for those resisty types.
smrtgmp 11-09-06, 01:44 AM	No, just no. There have been many threads discussing this before. There are a number of points that I could bring up, but the best one is MAGIC USERS HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO THAN DEAL DAMAGE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE TIME!!! All the orb spells do is give the character a viable combat option in situations where he would otherwise be useless (fighting golems); this in no way unbalances the game anymore than battlefield control/save-or-die/buff/utility spells.Thank you. You spared me a rant. The orbs are far from broken (though the flavor of orb of force is certainly questionable). regarding celerity: there is a feat in the new dragonmarked book that makes you immune to daze and stun. Mark of the Dauntless. could be handy for those of you playing in eberron who like to shatter a game. :)
LordArkan 11-09-06, 02:03 AM	For some reason no one has mentioned Wraithstrike from the Spell Comp. yet. 2nd level spell. Swift Action casting time. All melee attacks for that round are touch attacks. Every broken Gish's best friend. And then Persistant it for fun and profit? :D (This works by the CV wording, I don't know how its worded in SC)