Broken Spellcaster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Broken Spellcaster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Alacast
06-17-05, 04:36 PM What particular combinations of prestige classes make for the most absurdly -broken- spellcaster? This is not "what can deal the most damage," but just that general feel of "that shouldn't be able to happen" ;)

The big daddy that I'm aware of is Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge. Once at high levels, the recently developed Gnome Illusionist with Shadow magic making shadows more real than real is also notably stupid awesome. Anything else that ought to make a DM feel sick inside? (That is, until he decides to turn make an NPC like that to turn against the player :) )
NineInchNall
06-17-05, 04:44 PM The Ur-priest is only broken because of its 10th level ability, which allows him to steal another's spell-like ability. wish with no XP cost should not happen in 3.5 because the power of it scales with the XP cost. When you don't have to pay it, you can make an infinitely (well, actually just a really high finitely) powerful item off of one wish -- for free.

The same goes from the Dweomerkeeper.

Anything else is just small variation in power level compared to the power of the Wish, who can actually be both the Wish and the Word at the same time (just wish up a ring that changes your alignment temporarily when casting a caster level n holy word or a ring that casts every type of save or die at once at caster level n heightened to spell level n/2).

In short, the Ur-theurge is not broken. It is powerful, undoubtedly the best of the Mystic Theurge mold, but certainly not game breaking if the Steal SLA ability isn't abused. It's really more a problem with XP components than anything else anyway.

:twocents:

EDIT: Whoops! I forgot to mention the H.I.V.E., another absurdly broken idea. You don't even have to bend the UMD rules to do it, considering even a single swarm has a fairly high caster level when casting gate.
Alacast
06-17-05, 04:51 PM Hmm...I thought the big problem with MT/UrPriest was that by level 16 you could have 9th level divine spells and 7th level arcane spells. That seems...bad...to me :)

Which is not to say that free wishes isn't. Oh, it's bad. ;)

Edit: Ah, you edited while I was typing, nm
psly4mne
06-17-05, 04:55 PM You mentioned the Ur-priest/mystic theurge, but it just gets nutty when you add Sublime Chord.
SavageBard[UA]7 / Ur-priest[CD]2 / MasterOfShrouds[DotF]1 / SublimeChord[CA]2 / MysticTheurge 7 / xxx1 (the last level must advance arcane casting) with the Aligned Theurgy[DR325] and Practiced Spellcaster[CA] feats has 9th level arcane and divine spells, CL 20 arcane, 30 divine, 40 (!) for [evil] spells, access to divine feats, Song of Arcane Power, and a few other goodies.

Sick :mymy:

Edit: Let it be known that I can type really slow. There were no replies yet when I did this. And the point of the build is maximizing CL. Not uber-powerful, but nutty. And yes, I was thinking of blasphemy, which is a problem spell. By the way, depending on interpretation, a Ioun Stone(orange prism) and a Ring of Arcane Might[CA] make the CLs 24/36/48
NineInchNall
06-17-05, 05:21 PM Sick? Yes.

Extraordinarily powerful? You're damned right. But what do you expect from a character that's on the path of mastering TWO "secret" forms of magic that are only available through prestige classes, and even that only because he's taking yet another PrC that boosts both? It seems in keeping with the way it's put together.

Game breaking? Not likely, unless the character abuses the high caster level of blasphemy*, which is highly debatable anyway. Both the Ur-priest and the Sublime Chord have somewhat vague mechanics when it comes to caster levels, so the arguments flow freely. :D The character doesn't get access to the silliest of the UP's abilities, which I explained above. :nonono:

*Yet another instance where I say it's more a problem of the spell than anything else. I mean come on, an auto-kill with no save? Laaaaame. :rolleyes:
catharz
06-17-05, 05:40 PM Here is one which Customer Service has come out against:

Sha'ir [Drg 314] 3/Mystic theurge 7. Because Sha'ir cast both arcane and divine spells, one could say that they are an "arcane spellcasting class" and that they are a "divine spellcasting class."

So you end up with a 10th level character with a caster level of 17 and the ability to cast 9th-level spells.

There are a number of reasons why this might not work:
1) Customer Service says that 'the ability to cast divine spells dosen't make a divine spellcasting class.'
2) One could say that Mystic theurge advances one level of an arcane spellcasting class and one level of a divine spellcasting class, and those happen to be the same levels, and so each MT level only adds one spellcasting level.
3) Your DM will go OMG WTF U TALKIN BOUT THAT CRAZY TALK. BUY ME A PIZZA.

But still, it has that wonderful 'broken' feel.
psly4mne
06-17-05, 06:18 PM NIN's first post reminded me: a Staffificer with a Staff of Improvisation is... fun?

Any way to get a free wish is sufficiently broken - DwK, ur-priest, compel a genie, etc.

1) Customer Service says that 'the ability to cast divine spells dosen't make a divine spellcasting class.'
OK, clerics are not actually divine casters. They just cast divine spells. Mystic Theurge is now fixed.
gabrion
06-17-05, 06:40 PM The same goes from the Dweomerkeeper.

Speaking of which, what is the earliest a DwK can get the free wish spell thing?

BTW, lots of caster PrCs are more powerful thatn they should be, but few are broken. I think the Spelldancer (MoF) and any other classes/PrC that allow unlimited use of Persistent Spell for all spells are broken.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alacast 06-17-05, 04:36 PM	What particular combinations of prestige classes make for the most absurdly -broken- spellcaster? This is not "what can deal the most damage," but just that general feel of "that shouldn't be able to happen" ;) The big daddy that I'm aware of is Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge. Once at high levels, the recently developed Gnome Illusionist with Shadow magic making shadows more real than real is also notably stupid awesome. Anything else that ought to make a DM feel sick inside? (That is, until he decides to turn make an NPC like that to turn against the player :) )
NineInchNall 06-17-05, 04:44 PM	The Ur-priest is only broken because of its 10th level ability, which allows him to steal another's spell-like ability. wish with no XP cost should not happen in 3.5 because the power of it scales with the XP cost. When you don't have to pay it, you can make an infinitely (well, actually just a really high finitely) powerful item off of one wish -- for free. The same goes from the Dweomerkeeper. Anything else is just small variation in power level compared to the power of the Wish, who can actually be both the Wish and the Word at the same time (just wish up a ring that changes your alignment temporarily when casting a caster level n holy word or a ring that casts every type of save or die at once at caster level n heightened to spell level n/2). In short, the Ur-theurge is not broken. It is powerful, undoubtedly the best of the Mystic Theurge mold, but certainly not game breaking if the Steal SLA ability isn't abused. It's really more a problem with XP components than anything else anyway. :twocents: EDIT: Whoops! I forgot to mention the H.I.V.E., another absurdly broken idea. You don't even have to bend the UMD rules to do it, considering even a single swarm has a fairly high caster level when casting gate.
Alacast 06-17-05, 04:51 PM	Hmm...I thought the big problem with MT/UrPriest was that by level 16 you could have 9th level divine spells and 7th level arcane spells. That seems...bad...to me :) Which is not to say that free wishes isn't. Oh, it's bad. ;) Edit: Ah, you edited while I was typing, nm
psly4mne 06-17-05, 04:55 PM	You mentioned the Ur-priest/mystic theurge, but it just gets nutty when you add Sublime Chord. SavageBard[UA]7 / Ur-priest[CD]2 / MasterOfShrouds[DotF]1 / SublimeChord[CA]2 / MysticTheurge 7 / xxx1 (the last level must advance arcane casting) with the Aligned Theurgy[DR325] and Practiced Spellcaster[CA] feats has 9th level arcane and divine spells, CL 20 arcane, 30 divine, 40 (!) for [evil] spells, access to divine feats, Song of Arcane Power, and a few other goodies. Sick :mymy: Edit: Let it be known that I can type really slow. There were no replies yet when I did this. And the point of the build is maximizing CL. Not uber-powerful, but nutty. And yes, I was thinking of blasphemy, which is a problem spell. By the way, depending on interpretation, a Ioun Stone(orange prism) and a Ring of Arcane Might[CA] make the CLs 24/36/48
NineInchNall 06-17-05, 05:21 PM	Sick? Yes. Extraordinarily powerful? You're damned right. But what do you expect from a character that's on the path of mastering TWO "secret" forms of magic that are only available through prestige classes, and even that only because he's taking yet another PrC that boosts both? It seems in keeping with the way it's put together. Game breaking? Not likely, unless the character abuses the high caster level of blasphemy, which is highly debatable anyway. Both the Ur-priest and the Sublime Chord have somewhat vague mechanics when it comes to caster levels, so the arguments flow freely. :D The character doesn't get access to the silliest of the UP's abilities, which I explained above. :nonono: Yet another instance where I say it's more a problem of the spell than anything else. I mean come on, an auto-kill with no save? Laaaaame. :rolleyes:
catharz 06-17-05, 05:40 PM	Here is one which Customer Service has come out against: Sha'ir [Drg 314] 3/Mystic theurge 7. Because Sha'ir cast both arcane and divine spells, one could say that they are an "arcane spellcasting class" and that they are a "divine spellcasting class." So you end up with a 10th level character with a caster level of 17 and the ability to cast 9th-level spells. There are a number of reasons why this might not work: 1) Customer Service says that 'the ability to cast divine spells dosen't make a divine spellcasting class.' 2) One could say that Mystic theurge advances one level of an arcane spellcasting class and one level of a divine spellcasting class, and those happen to be the same levels, and so each MT level only adds one spellcasting level. 3) Your DM will go OMG WTF U TALKIN BOUT THAT CRAZY TALK. BUY ME A PIZZA. But still, it has that wonderful 'broken' feel.
psly4mne 06-17-05, 06:18 PM	NIN's first post reminded me: a Staffificer with a Staff of Improvisation is... fun? Any way to get a free wish is sufficiently broken - DwK, ur-priest, compel a genie, etc. 1) Customer Service says that 'the ability to cast divine spells dosen't make a divine spellcasting class.' OK, clerics are not actually divine casters. They just cast divine spells. Mystic Theurge is now fixed.
gabrion 06-17-05, 06:40 PM	The same goes from the Dweomerkeeper. Speaking of which, what is the earliest a DwK can get the free wish spell thing? BTW, lots of caster PrCs are more powerful thatn they should be, but few are broken. I think the Spelldancer (MoF) and any other classes/PrC that allow unlimited use of Persistent Spell for all spells are broken.