Brutal Throw: Worth It? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Brutal Throw: Worth It? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Furry Rodent
02-23-05, 06:11 PM The feat from CV lets you use your Str Mod instead of Dex Mod for thrown attacks. It leads to Power Throw, which is Power Attack with thrown weapons. What's the consensus on this? Is this a viable way of doing thrown attacks? It appears to me to be effective, as extra damage from a thrown weapon comes from strength. This also makes strength based fighters easier to use thrown weapons, as they can use their main weapon, and have hand-axes as back ups.

Thoughts?
Boondoggle
02-23-05, 06:40 PM For a character focusing on thrown weapons, it's very useful. For your average fighter, just use a mighty compositie longbow.
Furry Rodent
02-23-05, 06:45 PM I guess the fighter option was just fluff; the question really is if it's useful for thrown weapon specialists. You say it is; why? To make an arguement (I'm not saying I disagree with you), is it really worth taking a feat over?
Tempest Stormwind
02-23-05, 06:53 PM Let me put it this way.

There is a REGIONAL (read: better than normal, limited to 1, limited to first-level only, comes with RP and mechanical restriction) feat in PGtF called Axethrower. This became a CRITICAL component of the Hulking Hurler build.

Brutal Throw does everything that Axethrower did, and more (as a prerequisite), and now it's a generic feat.

Conclusion: Read the Hulk-Less hurler in my sig, but imagine it in any region, in any setting now (rather than just FR).

Or another way:

Ask your party rogue why he has Weapon Finesse. Now look at your barbarian.

Yet another way:

Power Throw is a feat version of a Hulking Hurler stunt, but a creature of any size can take it and it doesn't require a full-round, two-handed action to use.
incubus
02-23-05, 07:38 PM For a character focusing on thrown weapons, it's very useful. For your average fighter, just use a mighty compositie longbow.
And miss.

The average fighter focusses on strength, and may or may not effectively dump his dex (because he figures on using platemail anyway).

So wear heavy armour and take this one feat, and you are only left with one-third of the advantage of a high dex (good reflex saves). You're not getting much AC anymore, and you don't need it for ranged weapon attacks.
MustafaHazaraKhan
02-24-05, 04:50 AM It complements Throw Anything really well. Chuck your greatsword at the swines! Sort of reminds me of the end of Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, when Morgan Freeman throws his massive falchion...

I really like the Brutal Throw chain for any high-strength melee character with a couple of feats to spare (read: after Leap Attack and Combat Brute).
Largegnome
02-24-05, 04:51 AM I guess the fighter option was just fluff; the question really is if it's useful for thrown weapon specialists. You say it is; why? To make an arguement (I'm not saying I disagree with you), is it really worth taking a feat over?

IMHO, yes. Especially if you're playing a master thrower with the "weak spot" thrown weapon trick. Power throw is just too good to pass up, so it's definitely worth a feat ( or two, in this case..) and since brutal throw is a prereq...
Boondoggle
02-24-05, 05:11 AM For a thrown weapon based character, it removes the need to have a high dex and strength and is also a prereq for power throw, a bread and butter feat for a thrower. Throwers will also have the other feats that make ranged combat effective, something a melee focused fighter won't.

For your average fighter, a mighty composite longbow will probably be better for a few reasons. First, the range increments of thrown weapons are short, which means they are most effective at fairly close ranges. Within these ranges, most fighters would be much more effective charging into melee. Second, the bow has a large range incrment, much larger than that of thrown weapons, making it useful when the fighter is unable to close to melee. Third, the average (min/maxed) fighter probably has a str bonus 4 or 5 higher than his dex bonus. That is roughly the equivalent of 2 range increments. Within two range increments of a thrown weapon, the fighter should be closing to melee. Beyond that range, the fighter will have a better chance to hit with the bow whether he has this feat or not.
Jeremymc
02-24-05, 10:17 AM And miss.

The average fighter focusses on strength, and may or may not effectively dump his dex (because he figures on using platemail anyway).

So wear heavy armour and take this one feat, and you are only left with one-third of the advantage of a high dex (good reflex saves). You're not getting much AC anymore, and you don't need it for ranged weapon attacks.

What? I have no idea whether you're saying Brutal throw is good... or that it's bad... I quite literally cannot understand your point. I think you're saying that Brutal throw is good for a fighter... but I'm not sure..

For a thrown weapon fighter, Brutal Throw is an INCREDIBLE feat. It means that unlike with dexterity based fighters, you have the ability to basically deal melee damage at a distance. With a high strength stat, damage for your ranged attacks FAR outstrips anything a dexterity-based thrower can achieve without extras like sneak attack.

And by focusing your stat points in Str, and wearing full plate you are:

a) as good at hitting
b) superior in damage
c) superior in AC (unless the dexterity-based fighter somehow has about 20 more dexterity points than you)

The only thing you're missing out on is dexterity-based skills. But for a fighter, who cares?
HoshiAdam
02-24-05, 10:26 AM If you have the feats available, and are in need of a way to do short range damage, brutal throw is good. It can be very good in a few builds (dwarven defender with quickdraw, for damage in defensive stance; the dexless dwarf build found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=369703)).
Khazra Reborn
02-24-05, 10:37 AM Am i right in thinking the best range increment of any thrown weapon is the spinning javelin from sword & fist? I dont have the book on me now but i think it was 60ft, which, although not close to the bows, it is a fair distance. Also, don't forget that if you focus on range & take far shot the range increment of a thrown is not X1.5 but doubled!

Although only needing strength seems good, a properly min maxed archer doesn't need dex.....bow of hunters mercy :P
El_Machinae
02-24-05, 10:59 AM All I know is that this feat has become the 'gimee' feat for giants. Their 'softening' with boulders stage has become a LOT more deadly.
Vorlir
02-24-05, 11:22 AM oooo, thats a great idea. I just started running a low level game in the silver marches(forgotten realms) and if the game goes long enough they will run into giants.

<waves to his players who read this board>
Surreal
02-24-05, 12:19 PM Just thought I'd note that War Hulk 3 gains 'mighty rock throwing' which lets you use your strength mod in place of dexterity for attack rolls. Not sure if that qualifies you for power throw (though I don't see why not).
solbergb
02-24-05, 01:12 PM If the strength based thrower can spare a little space for a wiz or sorcerer level Guided Shot is a great way to get the range of your javelins all the way across the battlemap.

no range or cover penalties is a big boon for a thrown weapon fighter.

But of course you need either 11-12 int or cha and lose a point of BAB. Nothing comes for free.
Blue23
02-24-05, 02:22 PM Is it "the one true optimized way to build a thrower"? No. Can it help you reduce MAD? Definitely. I'm waiting to build a Hammer of Moridin with it.

Frankly, I'm liking it with the FR gloves that give any melee weapon the throwing and returning properties to add a little variety to a melee specialist.

Cheers,
=Blue(23)
Surreal
02-24-05, 02:33 PM the FR gloves that give any melee weapon the throwing and returning properties
And now I'm envisioning some giant with that feat (can't remember the name offhand) that lets you pick up and swing wee folk like a weapon...

Heck even if that's bending the rules a bit, I'd house rule it just so I can power throw a gnome who comes back every round so I can throw him again.. :D
incubus
02-24-05, 06:59 PM What? I have no idea whether you're saying Brutal throw is good... or that it's bad... I quite literally cannot understand your point. I think you're saying that Brutal throw is good for a fighter... but I'm not sure..

I am indeed saying that brutal throw is good for a fighter, ANY fighter, not just one focussed on thrown weapons. It all-but removes one stat that they need to concentrate on.
Bartok
02-25-05, 01:13 PM 'Could be a nice feat for a dwarven defender. If opponents try to ignore him, he can throws axes at them.

Bartok

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Furry Rodent 02-23-05, 06:11 PM	The feat from CV lets you use your Str Mod instead of Dex Mod for thrown attacks. It leads to Power Throw, which is Power Attack with thrown weapons. What's the consensus on this? Is this a viable way of doing thrown attacks? It appears to me to be effective, as extra damage from a thrown weapon comes from strength. This also makes strength based fighters easier to use thrown weapons, as they can use their main weapon, and have hand-axes as back ups. Thoughts?
Boondoggle 02-23-05, 06:40 PM	For a character focusing on thrown weapons, it's very useful. For your average fighter, just use a mighty compositie longbow.
Furry Rodent 02-23-05, 06:45 PM	I guess the fighter option was just fluff; the question really is if it's useful for thrown weapon specialists. You say it is; why? To make an arguement (I'm not saying I disagree with you), is it really worth taking a feat over?
Tempest Stormwind 02-23-05, 06:53 PM	Let me put it this way. There is a REGIONAL (read: better than normal, limited to 1, limited to first-level only, comes with RP and mechanical restriction) feat in PGtF called Axethrower. This became a CRITICAL component of the Hulking Hurler build. Brutal Throw does everything that Axethrower did, and more (as a prerequisite), and now it's a generic feat. Conclusion: Read the Hulk-Less hurler in my sig, but imagine it in any region, in any setting now (rather than just FR). Or another way: Ask your party rogue why he has Weapon Finesse. Now look at your barbarian. Yet another way: Power Throw is a feat version of a Hulking Hurler stunt, but a creature of any size can take it and it doesn't require a full-round, two-handed action to use.
incubus 02-23-05, 07:38 PM	For a character focusing on thrown weapons, it's very useful. For your average fighter, just use a mighty compositie longbow. And miss. The average fighter focusses on strength, and may or may not effectively dump his dex (because he figures on using platemail anyway). So wear heavy armour and take this one feat, and you are only left with one-third of the advantage of a high dex (good reflex saves). You're not getting much AC anymore, and you don't need it for ranged weapon attacks.
MustafaHazaraKhan 02-24-05, 04:50 AM	It complements Throw Anything really well. Chuck your greatsword at the swines! Sort of reminds me of the end of Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, when Morgan Freeman throws his massive falchion... I really like the Brutal Throw chain for any high-strength melee character with a couple of feats to spare (read: after Leap Attack and Combat Brute).
Largegnome 02-24-05, 04:51 AM	I guess the fighter option was just fluff; the question really is if it's useful for thrown weapon specialists. You say it is; why? To make an arguement (I'm not saying I disagree with you), is it really worth taking a feat over? IMHO, yes. Especially if you're playing a master thrower with the "weak spot" thrown weapon trick. Power throw is just too good to pass up, so it's definitely worth a feat ( or two, in this case..) and since brutal throw is a prereq...
Boondoggle 02-24-05, 05:11 AM	For a thrown weapon based character, it removes the need to have a high dex and strength and is also a prereq for power throw, a bread and butter feat for a thrower. Throwers will also have the other feats that make ranged combat effective, something a melee focused fighter won't. For your average fighter, a mighty composite longbow will probably be better for a few reasons. First, the range increments of thrown weapons are short, which means they are most effective at fairly close ranges. Within these ranges, most fighters would be much more effective charging into melee. Second, the bow has a large range incrment, much larger than that of thrown weapons, making it useful when the fighter is unable to close to melee. Third, the average (min/maxed) fighter probably has a str bonus 4 or 5 higher than his dex bonus. That is roughly the equivalent of 2 range increments. Within two range increments of a thrown weapon, the fighter should be closing to melee. Beyond that range, the fighter will have a better chance to hit with the bow whether he has this feat or not.
Jeremymc 02-24-05, 10:17 AM	And miss. The average fighter focusses on strength, and may or may not effectively dump his dex (because he figures on using platemail anyway). So wear heavy armour and take this one feat, and you are only left with one-third of the advantage of a high dex (good reflex saves). You're not getting much AC anymore, and you don't need it for ranged weapon attacks. What? I have no idea whether you're saying Brutal throw is good... or that it's bad... I quite literally cannot understand your point. I think you're saying that Brutal throw is good for a fighter... but I'm not sure.. For a thrown weapon fighter, Brutal Throw is an INCREDIBLE feat. It means that unlike with dexterity based fighters, you have the ability to basically deal melee damage at a distance. With a high strength stat, damage for your ranged attacks FAR outstrips anything a dexterity-based thrower can achieve without extras like sneak attack. And by focusing your stat points in Str, and wearing full plate you are: a) as good at hitting b) superior in damage c) superior in AC (unless the dexterity-based fighter somehow has about 20 more dexterity points than you) The only thing you're missing out on is dexterity-based skills. But for a fighter, who cares?
HoshiAdam 02-24-05, 10:26 AM	If you have the feats available, and are in need of a way to do short range damage, brutal throw is good. It can be very good in a few builds (dwarven defender with quickdraw, for damage in defensive stance; the dexless dwarf build found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=369703)).
Khazra Reborn 02-24-05, 10:37 AM	Am i right in thinking the best range increment of any thrown weapon is the spinning javelin from sword & fist? I dont have the book on me now but i think it was 60ft, which, although not close to the bows, it is a fair distance. Also, don't forget that if you focus on range & take far shot the range increment of a thrown is not X1.5 but doubled! Although only needing strength seems good, a properly min maxed archer doesn't need dex.....bow of hunters mercy :P
El_Machinae 02-24-05, 10:59 AM	All I know is that this feat has become the 'gimee' feat for giants. Their 'softening' with boulders stage has become a LOT more deadly.
Vorlir 02-24-05, 11:22 AM	oooo, thats a great idea. I just started running a low level game in the silver marches(forgotten realms) and if the game goes long enough they will run into giants. <waves to his players who read this board>
Surreal 02-24-05, 12:19 PM	Just thought I'd note that War Hulk 3 gains 'mighty rock throwing' which lets you use your strength mod in place of dexterity for attack rolls. Not sure if that qualifies you for power throw (though I don't see why not).
solbergb 02-24-05, 01:12 PM	If the strength based thrower can spare a little space for a wiz or sorcerer level Guided Shot is a great way to get the range of your javelins all the way across the battlemap. no range or cover penalties is a big boon for a thrown weapon fighter. But of course you need either 11-12 int or cha and lose a point of BAB. Nothing comes for free.
Blue23 02-24-05, 02:22 PM	Is it "the one true optimized way to build a thrower"? No. Can it help you reduce MAD? Definitely. I'm waiting to build a Hammer of Moridin with it. Frankly, I'm liking it with the FR gloves that give any melee weapon the throwing and returning properties to add a little variety to a melee specialist. Cheers, =Blue(23)
Surreal 02-24-05, 02:33 PM	the FR gloves that give any melee weapon the throwing and returning properties And now I'm envisioning some giant with that feat (can't remember the name offhand) that lets you pick up and swing wee folk like a weapon... Heck even if that's bending the rules a bit, I'd house rule it just so I can power throw a gnome who comes back every round so I can throw him again.. :D
incubus 02-24-05, 06:59 PM	What? I have no idea whether you're saying Brutal throw is good... or that it's bad... I quite literally cannot understand your point. I think you're saying that Brutal throw is good for a fighter... but I'm not sure.. I am indeed saying that brutal throw is good for a fighter, ANY fighter, not just one focussed on thrown weapons. It all-but removes one stat that they need to concentrate on.
Bartok 02-25-05, 01:13 PM	'Could be a nice feat for a dwarven defender. If opponents try to ignore him, he can throws axes at them. Bartok