Buffer Optimization (Spelldancer, War Weaver, etc.) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Buffer Optimization (Spelldancer, War Weaver, etc.) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
snb1131
07-17-05, 02:30 PM Hey all...

I am in the planning stages of my next character (should the need arise). I am looking to be the party's buffer and am looking to do this through the (ab)use of Spelldancer (with Persistent Spell) and War Weaver.

Spelldancer pre-reqs are 3rd-level spells, Dodge, Mobility, Endurance and Combat Casting. War Weaver pre-reqs are Enlarge Spell and 3rd-level arcane spells.

Obviously, I would want to get into the first level of both of these classes as soon as possible. This would mean that I'd need to take five levels of a core spell-casting class (more than likely an arcane one) right off the bat. However, the heavy feat requirements make it more than likely that I won't be able to jump right into both immediately after the first five levels. That being said, I had thought about taking two of the first five levels in Monk - using the Cobra Strike school variant from UA will net me Dodge and Mobility as the monk's bonus feats; this leaves me free to take other feats at first level (playing a human would be a good choice as I am needing many feats). I am certain that flaws are not allowed (too bad, eh?).

Using two levels of monk will also give me the ability to flurry with a quarterstaff...eventually having access to the Cleric/Druid spell lists will gain me Brambles and Spikes to use on said staff.

A couple of levels in Chameleon might be a good choice - this would let me focus on arcane casting in the first few levels while waiting until my levels in Chameleon to take advantage of Divine Focus. However, this requires me to take Able Learner, yet another feat (though, if I take two levels of monk, I can take it at first level).

Both Spelldancer and War Weaver may be used with arcane and divine spells.

Questions:

Which arcane class would be the best in terms of amounts and types of spells which may be made persistent (and eventually eligible to be made persistent on my party)? Wu Jen gives me a bonus metamagic feat at first level, though I'm not sure that its spell list is optimal for my concept. Sorcerer is always good - I can take Ascetic Mage to use CHA to my AC bonus, though the drawback is that it takes up a feat slot.

I think that, regardless of if I take two levels in monk, I'll have to wait until 6th or 7th level to start taking levels in these prestige classes, so is having two levels in monk a good thing? They will also give me help with my Fort and Ref saves as well as evasion.

I am familiar with some feat and/or spell somewhere which negates the effects of fatigue and exhaustion, though I can't remember where this is...if someone knows and could tell me, I'd appreciate it.

Preliminary beginning build:

Monk2/Caster5/Spelldancer1/Chameleon1/WarWeaver1...this leaves 11 levels left to play with.

I know that I need to work in Persistent Spell as well, but the feat crunch is bogging me down...

One last thing - it might be possible to ask my DM to allow the War Weaver's pre-req to simply be "casting 3rd-level spells." This would open up new avenues such as taking levels in Cleric.

I just want to be able to do all of this as soon as possible, and I am needing help in figuring out how to do it.

Thanks for your help!

Sam

EDIT: Is there any way to cast 3rd-level spells sooner than 5th level?
Snow Savant
07-17-05, 02:40 PM Wizard 5 / War Weaver 5 / Spellguard of Silverymoon 5 / XXX 5

Where "XXX 5" equals:

If you are a Gnome, go: Shadowcraft Mage 5

If you are not a Gnome, go: Arcane Devotee 2 / Harper Mage 3

***

For a War Weaver, stay Wizard or Sublime Chord. Avoid Bard, Sorc, Cleric, etc. Wizard gets a *HUGE* benefit from WW, even with the atrocious 4/5 spellcaster progression. Primarily because of the so-called "expanded slots" phenomenon and the combo'ing of speedy buffs along with Quickened spells, & Ext. Concentration-transferred spells. WW makes for a wickedly powerful multi-tasking mage. Quite delicious. I highly recommend.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
snb1131
07-17-05, 02:45 PM Hi, Snow!! Haven't talked with you in awhile...good to see you again!

I like that idea, but I'm really wanting to make use of Spelldancer - in order to dance to persist as many spells as possible....and I want to do it as early as possible.

I liked the idea of Wu Jen because it gave me that extra metamagic feat, even though the spell list is not terribly optimal.

Suggestions for feat-crunching?
Snow Savant
07-17-05, 03:20 PM Oh, so you want to break the game, huh? :P Your poor DM ... Definitely pick up the heavy-duty metamagick feats though - Quicken, Chain, Persistent, and Twin.

Good to see you again too, SNB.

Seriously, if you want extra metamagic feats, why not go with Spellguard of Silverymoon/Incantatar combo as a PrC avenue? Both grant bonus metamagic feats.

I think you'll be kicking yourself in the balls taking Wu-Jen ... for the sheer reason of a tightly restricted spell list.

I'd offer you more help, but Spelldancing is a massively broken game mechanic that just doesn't interest me much.

Good luck!
Erudite
07-17-05, 03:27 PM Excuse me Snow, but where is War Weaver from? I don't recognize that one.
snb1131
07-17-05, 03:29 PM I agree about Wu Jen - as a man, I definitely do not enjoy being kicked in the gonads.

I'm sure that my DM won't go for my game-breaking idea...just wanted to see if it could be done (thereby seeing his "Oh, s***" expression). I like the Spelldancer, though...it's fun. :)
A Man In Black
07-17-05, 03:40 PM Excuse me Snow, but where is War Weaver from? I don't recognize that one.
I'm not Snow (not even close), but it's in Heroes of Battle.
Naja
07-17-05, 04:06 PM I am familiar with some feat and/or spell somewhere which negates the effects of fatigue and exhaustion, though I can't remember where this is...if someone knows and could tell me, I'd appreciate it.

The feat is "Tireless" (PGtF). Another way is Horizon Master with Desert Mastery.

Preliminary beginning build:

Monk2/Caster5/Spelldancer1/Chameleon1/WarWeaver1...this leaves 11 levels left to play with.

No way. You loose to much by going Monk-Spelldancer. See, you can´t spelldance Evocation spells, so the two most abusive spells that don´t rely heavily on casterlevel (Divine Power/Favor) are flat out. So you´re going to rely heavily on casterlevel. If you can´t get flaws, your best bet stays Caster5/PrC1/SpD2 with PrC=any metamagic feat rich PrC.
I had tempered long with a spelldancer build but discarded it in the end. The feat cost is just to high. You can do it at higher levels, but before 12 (Persistant Spell) it is castrated.
snb1131
07-17-05, 04:13 PM Does the 3.0 "Invocation" school translate to the 3.5 "Evocation" school?

I suppose the build could work with divine casting and flaws.
Erudite
07-17-05, 04:59 PM I'm not Snow (not even close), but it's in Heroes of Battle.

Thanks, MIB!
The Thing in the Night
07-17-05, 08:13 PM I wonder how well spelldancer would interact with a melee chameleon build....it has access to any <6 spell you need. The only problem then becomes lack of party support in favour of personal support. Perhaps a rog1/mnk2/rgr3/chameleon5/spelldancer2/chameleon6-10/xx2...or something. Chameleon always does wonders combining the best of the cleric and druid buffs into one tidy package
Snow Savant
07-17-05, 08:37 PM Keep in mind, the Spelldancer PrC is a nifty flavored PrC in the FRCS.

Unfortunately, it was given a class ability that can highly unbalance a campaign unless restricted in use by a DM.

It's given the same amount of credibility as the Spellfire Wielder or the 3.0 OA version of Maho-Tsukai ... meaning it gets *none*.

I like SNB1131 and applaud his use of Spelldancer for flavor and minor abuse of the Spelldancing class ability. :P Otherwise, pontificating on the various ways to abuse Spelldancer will probably get you a lot of yawns in here.
Naja
07-18-05, 06:53 AM Keep in mind, the Spelldancer PrC is a nifty flavored PrC in the FRCS.

Unfortunately, it was given a class ability that can highly unbalance a campaign unless restricted in use by a DM.

It's given the same amount of credibility as the Spellfire Wielder or the 3.0 OA version of Maho-Tsukai ... meaning it gets *none*.

I like SNB1131 and applaud his use of Spelldancer for flavor and minor abuse of the Spelldancing class ability. :P Otherwise, pontificating on the various ways to abuse Spelldancer will probably get you a lot of yawns in here.
We know that already, Snow. ;)
On the other hand, I didn´t get it in the last years, so I won´t be getting it now. (no discussion on game mechanics regarding SpD. I just want to make known, that 3.5 and the German 3.0 made the ABuse a mere shadow of it´s former brokeness. If you figure the requirements into the equation, the SpD is useless ´cause its opportunity cost is too high).
LordKiwi
07-18-05, 07:35 AM Spelldancer pre-reqs are 3rd-level spells, Dodge, Mobility, Endurance and Combat Casting. War Weaver pre-reqs are Enlarge Spell and 3rd-level arcane spells.
You can get into both by level 7 quite easily...
Human
1 - Wizard 1 - Dodge, Mobility, Scribe Scroll
2 - Wizard 2
3 - Wizard 3 - Endurance
4 - Wizard 4
5 - Wizard 5 - Enlarge Spell
6 - Warweaver 1 - Combat Casting
7 - Spell Dancer 1

Unfortunatly you're missing any good metamagic to abuse. With UA you can get one more feat by substituting your normal bonus feats for fighter feats (Dodge and Mobility) as well as an additional 2 for taking flaws.

For good persistent wizard spells, a few low level ones are mage armour, shield, blur, haste, fly, stoneskin and heroism. Arcane Disiple for War, Competition or Mystisism give you a selection of the best divine buff spells.

The thing about the Warweaver though is you don't need persistent spells, you can just load up your weave with your favourite 1-4 buff spells and activate them at the start of a battle.

Lord Kiwi,
snb1131
07-18-05, 09:55 AM The thing about the Warweaver though is you don't need persistent spells
How do you figure? Unless I'm reading something incorrectly, all it does is cast the spell normally on all your allies. Perhaps the "eldritch tapestry lasts for 24 hours" part matters...
snb1131
07-18-05, 10:39 AM A bit more cheese for the Spelldancer:

Healing Lorecall (CV; Clr2/Drd2/Rgr1) gives immunity to (depending on total ranks in Heal), among other things, fatigue (five ranks) and exhaustion (10 ranks)...and it can be made persistent. No need to take Tireless now.
LordKiwi
07-18-05, 11:09 AM How do you figure? Unless I'm reading something incorrectly, all it does is cast the spell normally on all your allies. Perhaps the "eldritch tapestry lasts for 24 hours" part matters...
Unless I'm mis-remembering it (I don't have the book on my, I'm at work), you can place several spells in the weave and then activate them all on your allies all at once.
The advantage of Persistent spells is that you can have them active all day and don't have to waste several rounds buffing yourselves before combat. With this ability it reduces that need by allowing you to buff the entire party as part of the first turn of a fight.
Persistent is still better, but war weaver is a nice alternative, I think.

Lord Kiwi,
snb1131
07-18-05, 11:13 AM I was under the same impression as well...for some reason I think I failed my INT check on your last post... :D

Too bad War Weaver tapestry stuff doesn't work on spells with Range: Personal...
Caelic
07-18-05, 11:34 AM Fundamental problem: a War Weaver cannot include personal-range spells in his weave; ergo, you're not going to be using it to buff up your entire party with Persistent buffs.
sornet
07-18-05, 12:19 PM Fundamental problem: a War Weaver cannot include personal-range spells in his weave; ergo, you're not going to be using it to buff up your entire party with Persistent buffs.
That's why you want Spellguard of Silverymoon 4 :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
snb1131 07-17-05, 02:30 PM	Hey all... I am in the planning stages of my next character (should the need arise). I am looking to be the party's buffer and am looking to do this through the (ab)use of Spelldancer (with Persistent Spell) and War Weaver. Spelldancer pre-reqs are 3rd-level spells, Dodge, Mobility, Endurance and Combat Casting. War Weaver pre-reqs are Enlarge Spell and 3rd-level arcane spells. Obviously, I would want to get into the first level of both of these classes as soon as possible. This would mean that I'd need to take five levels of a core spell-casting class (more than likely an arcane one) right off the bat. However, the heavy feat requirements make it more than likely that I won't be able to jump right into both immediately after the first five levels. That being said, I had thought about taking two of the first five levels in Monk - using the Cobra Strike school variant from UA will net me Dodge and Mobility as the monk's bonus feats; this leaves me free to take other feats at first level (playing a human would be a good choice as I am needing many feats). I am certain that flaws are not allowed (too bad, eh?). Using two levels of monk will also give me the ability to flurry with a quarterstaff...eventually having access to the Cleric/Druid spell lists will gain me Brambles and Spikes to use on said staff. A couple of levels in Chameleon might be a good choice - this would let me focus on arcane casting in the first few levels while waiting until my levels in Chameleon to take advantage of Divine Focus. However, this requires me to take Able Learner, yet another feat (though, if I take two levels of monk, I can take it at first level). Both Spelldancer and War Weaver may be used with arcane and divine spells. Questions: Which arcane class would be the best in terms of amounts and types of spells which may be made persistent (and eventually eligible to be made persistent on my party)? Wu Jen gives me a bonus metamagic feat at first level, though I'm not sure that its spell list is optimal for my concept. Sorcerer is always good - I can take Ascetic Mage to use CHA to my AC bonus, though the drawback is that it takes up a feat slot. I think that, regardless of if I take two levels in monk, I'll have to wait until 6th or 7th level to start taking levels in these prestige classes, so is having two levels in monk a good thing? They will also give me help with my Fort and Ref saves as well as evasion. I am familiar with some feat and/or spell somewhere which negates the effects of fatigue and exhaustion, though I can't remember where this is...if someone knows and could tell me, I'd appreciate it. Preliminary beginning build: Monk2/Caster5/Spelldancer1/Chameleon1/WarWeaver1...this leaves 11 levels left to play with. I know that I need to work in Persistent Spell as well, but the feat crunch is bogging me down... One last thing - it might be possible to ask my DM to allow the War Weaver's pre-req to simply be "casting 3rd-level spells." This would open up new avenues such as taking levels in Cleric. I just want to be able to do all of this as soon as possible, and I am needing help in figuring out how to do it. Thanks for your help! Sam EDIT: Is there any way to cast 3rd-level spells sooner than 5th level?
Snow Savant 07-17-05, 02:40 PM	Wizard 5 / War Weaver 5 / Spellguard of Silverymoon 5 / XXX 5 Where "XXX 5" equals: If you are a Gnome, go: Shadowcraft Mage 5 If you are not a Gnome, go: Arcane Devotee 2 / Harper Mage 3 *** For a War Weaver, stay Wizard or Sublime Chord. Avoid Bard, Sorc, Cleric, etc. Wizard gets a HUGE benefit from WW, even with the atrocious 4/5 spellcaster progression. Primarily because of the so-called "expanded slots" phenomenon and the combo'ing of speedy buffs along with Quickened spells, & Ext. Concentration-transferred spells. WW makes for a wickedly powerful multi-tasking mage. Quite delicious. I highly recommend. XO, Snow :cloud9:
snb1131 07-17-05, 02:45 PM	Hi, Snow!! Haven't talked with you in awhile...good to see you again! I like that idea, but I'm really wanting to make use of Spelldancer - in order to dance to persist as many spells as possible....and I want to do it as early as possible. I liked the idea of Wu Jen because it gave me that extra metamagic feat, even though the spell list is not terribly optimal. Suggestions for feat-crunching?
Snow Savant 07-17-05, 03:20 PM	Oh, so you want to break the game, huh? :P Your poor DM ... Definitely pick up the heavy-duty metamagick feats though - Quicken, Chain, Persistent, and Twin. Good to see you again too, SNB. Seriously, if you want extra metamagic feats, why not go with Spellguard of Silverymoon/Incantatar combo as a PrC avenue? Both grant bonus metamagic feats. I think you'll be kicking yourself in the balls taking Wu-Jen ... for the sheer reason of a tightly restricted spell list. I'd offer you more help, but Spelldancing is a massively broken game mechanic that just doesn't interest me much. Good luck!
Erudite 07-17-05, 03:27 PM	Excuse me Snow, but where is War Weaver from? I don't recognize that one.
snb1131 07-17-05, 03:29 PM	I agree about Wu Jen - as a man, I definitely do not enjoy being kicked in the gonads. I'm sure that my DM won't go for my game-breaking idea...just wanted to see if it could be done (thereby seeing his "Oh, s***" expression). I like the Spelldancer, though...it's fun. :)
A Man In Black 07-17-05, 03:40 PM	Excuse me Snow, but where is War Weaver from? I don't recognize that one. I'm not Snow (not even close), but it's in Heroes of Battle.
Naja 07-17-05, 04:06 PM	I am familiar with some feat and/or spell somewhere which negates the effects of fatigue and exhaustion, though I can't remember where this is...if someone knows and could tell me, I'd appreciate it. The feat is "Tireless" (PGtF). Another way is Horizon Master with Desert Mastery. Preliminary beginning build: Monk2/Caster5/Spelldancer1/Chameleon1/WarWeaver1...this leaves 11 levels left to play with. No way. You loose to much by going Monk-Spelldancer. See, you can´t spelldance Evocation spells, so the two most abusive spells that don´t rely heavily on casterlevel (Divine Power/Favor) are flat out. So you´re going to rely heavily on casterlevel. If you can´t get flaws, your best bet stays Caster5/PrC1/SpD2 with PrC=any metamagic feat rich PrC. I had tempered long with a spelldancer build but discarded it in the end. The feat cost is just to high. You can do it at higher levels, but before 12 (Persistant Spell) it is castrated.
snb1131 07-17-05, 04:13 PM	Does the 3.0 "Invocation" school translate to the 3.5 "Evocation" school? I suppose the build could work with divine casting and flaws.
Erudite 07-17-05, 04:59 PM	I'm not Snow (not even close), but it's in Heroes of Battle. Thanks, MIB!
The Thing in the Night 07-17-05, 08:13 PM	I wonder how well spelldancer would interact with a melee chameleon build....it has access to any <6 spell you need. The only problem then becomes lack of party support in favour of personal support. Perhaps a rog1/mnk2/rgr3/chameleon5/spelldancer2/chameleon6-10/xx2...or something. Chameleon always does wonders combining the best of the cleric and druid buffs into one tidy package
Snow Savant 07-17-05, 08:37 PM	Keep in mind, the Spelldancer PrC is a nifty flavored PrC in the FRCS. Unfortunately, it was given a class ability that can highly unbalance a campaign unless restricted in use by a DM. It's given the same amount of credibility as the Spellfire Wielder or the 3.0 OA version of Maho-Tsukai ... meaning it gets none. I like SNB1131 and applaud his use of Spelldancer for flavor and minor abuse of the Spelldancing class ability. :P Otherwise, pontificating on the various ways to abuse Spelldancer will probably get you a lot of yawns in here.
Naja 07-18-05, 06:53 AM	Keep in mind, the Spelldancer PrC is a nifty flavored PrC in the FRCS. Unfortunately, it was given a class ability that can highly unbalance a campaign unless restricted in use by a DM. It's given the same amount of credibility as the Spellfire Wielder or the 3.0 OA version of Maho-Tsukai ... meaning it gets none. I like SNB1131 and applaud his use of Spelldancer for flavor and minor abuse of the Spelldancing class ability. :P Otherwise, pontificating on the various ways to abuse Spelldancer will probably get you a lot of yawns in here. We know that already, Snow. ;) On the other hand, I didn´t get it in the last years, so I won´t be getting it now. (no discussion on game mechanics regarding SpD. I just want to make known, that 3.5 and the German 3.0 made the ABuse a mere shadow of it´s former brokeness. If you figure the requirements into the equation, the SpD is useless ´cause its opportunity cost is too high).
LordKiwi 07-18-05, 07:35 AM	Spelldancer pre-reqs are 3rd-level spells, Dodge, Mobility, Endurance and Combat Casting. War Weaver pre-reqs are Enlarge Spell and 3rd-level arcane spells. You can get into both by level 7 quite easily... Human 1 - Wizard 1 - Dodge, Mobility, Scribe Scroll 2 - Wizard 2 3 - Wizard 3 - Endurance 4 - Wizard 4 5 - Wizard 5 - Enlarge Spell 6 - Warweaver 1 - Combat Casting 7 - Spell Dancer 1 Unfortunatly you're missing any good metamagic to abuse. With UA you can get one more feat by substituting your normal bonus feats for fighter feats (Dodge and Mobility) as well as an additional 2 for taking flaws. For good persistent wizard spells, a few low level ones are mage armour, shield, blur, haste, fly, stoneskin and heroism. Arcane Disiple for War, Competition or Mystisism give you a selection of the best divine buff spells. The thing about the Warweaver though is you don't need persistent spells, you can just load up your weave with your favourite 1-4 buff spells and activate them at the start of a battle. Lord Kiwi,
snb1131 07-18-05, 09:55 AM	The thing about the Warweaver though is you don't need persistent spells How do you figure? Unless I'm reading something incorrectly, all it does is cast the spell normally on all your allies. Perhaps the "eldritch tapestry lasts for 24 hours" part matters...
snb1131 07-18-05, 10:39 AM	A bit more cheese for the Spelldancer: Healing Lorecall (CV; Clr2/Drd2/Rgr1) gives immunity to (depending on total ranks in Heal), among other things, fatigue (five ranks) and exhaustion (10 ranks)...and it can be made persistent. No need to take Tireless now.
LordKiwi 07-18-05, 11:09 AM	How do you figure? Unless I'm reading something incorrectly, all it does is cast the spell normally on all your allies. Perhaps the "eldritch tapestry lasts for 24 hours" part matters... Unless I'm mis-remembering it (I don't have the book on my, I'm at work), you can place several spells in the weave and then activate them all on your allies all at once. The advantage of Persistent spells is that you can have them active all day and don't have to waste several rounds buffing yourselves before combat. With this ability it reduces that need by allowing you to buff the entire party as part of the first turn of a fight. Persistent is still better, but war weaver is a nice alternative, I think. Lord Kiwi,
snb1131 07-18-05, 11:13 AM	I was under the same impression as well...for some reason I think I failed my INT check on your last post... :D Too bad War Weaver tapestry stuff doesn't work on spells with Range: Personal...
Caelic 07-18-05, 11:34 AM	Fundamental problem: a War Weaver cannot include personal-range spells in his weave; ergo, you're not going to be using it to buff up your entire party with Persistent buffs.
sornet 07-18-05, 12:19 PM	Fundamental problem: a War Weaver cannot include personal-range spells in his weave; ergo, you're not going to be using it to buff up your entire party with Persistent buffs. That's why you want Spellguard of Silverymoon 4 :D