bugbear barbarian [Archive] - Wizards Community

bugbear barbarian [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SpartanMD
08-19-04, 11:52 AM I just got Savage species, and was intrigued by the example of the Bugbear barbarian. What struck me was how under powered the character was as a 5th level character vs. a standard 5th level 1/2 orc barbarian in the DMG. The DMG char has better BAB, MUCH better hp, more skills etc.....

Any way to start off as a 1st level character? To make bugbear a standard race with a ELC of +1?

When you compare the half orge and the bug bear its not even close! A 4th level half orge barbarian would wipe the floor with a 1st level bugbear barbarian in the SS. (a 1st level barbarian with 3HD of Bugbear).
helicopter
08-19-04, 12:02 PM Savage Speceis was meant to show players how to convert monsters to playable characters. But not show them how to make them more powerful than standard race characters. the majority of the SS monster races are below average on the power scale -- as you have noticed with the bugbear.
MoogleEmpMog
08-19-04, 12:26 PM Sad yet true.

There are very few monsters capable of hanging with straight 1-20 base class melee characters. Now imagine how they fare compared to even multiclassed core fighting builds, or spellcasters, or, as you see, strong low-LA no-hit dice races like half-ogre.

The problem is racial hit dice.

Monks, arugably one of the weaker base classes without careful preparation and a strong grasp of their specialties, get a bucketload of special abilities per level. They also get:

d8 hit dice
3/4 BAB
all good saves
4 + Int skill points

Compare that with basic humanoid hit dice:

d8 hit dice
3/4 BAB
one good save
2 + Int skill points

So a creature with humanoid hit dice should have abilities not only equal to a monk's special abilities (many of the best of which come at low levels), but a significant amount better to make up for two saves and 2 sp/level.

Monstrous humanoid is decent (d8, 1/1 BAB, 2 good saves, 2+Int), magical beast is quite good (d10, 1/1 BAB, 2 good saves, 2+Int), outsider is very good (d8, 1/1 BAB, 3 good saves, 6+Int) and dragon is better than any PC class hit dice (d12, 1/1 BAB, 3 good saves, 6+Int).

Everything else is an LA unto itself.

Bugbears should have an LA of 0 at most; a bugbear barbarian 1 is still much weaker than a human barbarian 4.

I once ran the bugbear through BESM d20's racial mods system (admittedly, that system isn't big on balance, but...):

He came out to being, effectively, ECL 1.4, *with* his three hit dice.
SpartanMD
08-19-04, 12:38 PM How would you set up a 0 HD bugbear character? WOuld you just use mods in DMG and then give +1 level?

What also burns me is that a bugbear is equivalent to a 4th char levels! So according to SS, if my 7th level human barbarian gets reincarnated into a bugbear, he needs XP of an 11th level char to advance! This seems crazy!

I also question whether a bugbear is as powerful (with no HD option) as a tiefling or asimar....
Minotaur
08-19-04, 02:05 PM Interesting. I had the opposite reaction to the bugbear. I felt like it was a deal at only +1 LA.

Lets look at this.

Assumptions: Same cash based ECL, same access to magic items and feats, same base stats.

Human Fighter 4th level vs Bugbear 0 Levels
Hit Points: 26.5 vs 16.5; While the Bugbear has +2 Con, the Human Fighter has gotten 3d10+10 (max for first level), more than making up for it.
Armor Class: 20 vs 19; While the Bugbear has +2 Dex and +3 Natural Armor, by 4th level the Human is going to have Full Plate and Heavy shield. Bugbear is only proficient in light armor.
Atk Bonus: +4 vs +4; while the Human Fighter gets +4 for his level, the Bugbear is going to have +4 str over the Human Fighter giving him +2 BAB and +2 from Str. So that is Equal.
Damage: 4.95 (longsword) vs 6.825 (morningstar); Human has access to martial weapon and the Bugbear does not, however the Bugbear has +2 Dmg from his +4 Str bonus.
Saves: +4/+1/+1 vs +2/+4/+1; slight advantage to the Bugbear hear, again do to his stat bonuses.
Skills:: 21 vs 12; This is a tough one to judge, while the Human Fighter will have more skill points and his max is going to higher, Listen and Spot as
Feats: 6 vs 2; Human Fighter own this category. However, the Bugbear has +4 Move Silently and Darkvision 60' which are both worth more than a feat.
Other: Human Fighter being 4th level gets his +1 Stat bump, the Bugbear has to get one more HD before he gets it.

Round 1 winner: Human Fighter; A lot more HPs, Skill points and Feats, the Human Fighter is just better than Bugbear, at this level

Human Fighter 8th level vs Bugbear 4th level Fighter
Hit Points: 44.5 vs 47; The Bugbear has now pulled into the lead on the HP race, his +2 Con bonus is really showing its advantages now.
Armor Class: 20 vs 24; The Bugbear has now pulled into the lead on the AC race too, now that he has access to all the same armor and shields that the human fighter has his +3 natural armor and +2 Dex bonus are impossible for the human fighter to make up for. The Bugbear will just always be +3 AC over the human fighter.
Atk Bonus: +8 vs +8; this continues to be equal, while the Bugbear is down 1 for humaniod hit dice and 1 for LA, his +4 Str makes up for it.
Damage: 4.95 (longsword) vs 7.15 (longsword); Now that the Bugbear has access to all the same weapons that the Human does, his +4 Str just keeps him doing more damage than the Human. This is even a larger gap if they are both using a Two Handed Weapons.
Saves: +6/+2/+2 vs +6/+5/+2; Bugbear is now clearly winning this race to. Having gotten a nice bump to Reflex saves as well as superior Con and Dex stats, he just will always have better saves than the Human Fighter.
Skills:: 33 vs 20; I am going to have to give this one to the Human. While the Bugbear will always have an advantage in Listen and Spot, the Human is just going to dominate him in skill points to spend.
Feats: 9 vs 6; While the Human own this category the Bugbear still has +4 Move Silently and Darkvision 60' which are both worth more than a feat. The difference is not as great as it was at 4th level.
Other: Human Fighter being 8th level gets his +1 Stat bump, the Bugbear has to get one more HD before he gets it.

Round 2 winner:Bugbear; More HPs, more AC, more damage and better saves. While the Human has better access to PrCs do to having more feats and skill points to play with.

We could go on with this little experiment, but I think you can see that as the levels go on, the Bugbear's stat bumps, natural armor and darkvision more than make up for the 3 Humanoid HD and +1 LA. The Human is always going to get into PrC earlier, and of coarse this discusion is only interessting if we are talking about a non-caster character. For some builds the Favored Class: Rogue might be challenging.

I am currently playing Bugbear. My plan for my character is:

1 Bugbear
2 Bugbear
3 Bugbear
4 Bugbear
5 Bbn 1
6 Rng 1
7 Rng 2
8 Devoted Defender
9 Devoted Defender
10 Devoted Defender

Not sure what I will be doing next. But I am very happy with being a Bugbear.
SpartanMD
08-19-04, 04:09 PM Minotaur, nice analysis! Wow!

I was comparing the bugbear barrbarian (5levels) vs the 5th half orc barbarian in the DMG and at that level, the half orc was superior. But I guess the Bugbear catches up to the human at mid levels....

My main argument is the BAB. feat selection and skill points always favor the standard races. You can play a half orge and start as a 1st level barbarian, why can't you do this with a bugbear, and just take the +1 LA? If you take away the 3d8 hp, the bugbear doesn't look more overpowered than the half orge, the tiefling or the asimar, IMHO.

I'm making a 10th level character, with as many of those levels being barbarian as possible. I just think 4 levels is a lot for not much in return.
Minotaur
08-19-04, 04:15 PM Spartan,

Half-Ogre is just plan too good at LA +1. And if you can be one, I highly recommend it, the Bugbear just looses to it hands down. However, compared to more appropriate LA creatures like Half Dragon and Aasimar, I feel that the Bugbear is a good deal. I think that at ECL 4, the Bugbear is a little rough, but that is your toughest level, and if you are starting at 10 and expect to going up to 15 or more, I believe you will be very happy with the Bugbear. Unless you can be a Half-Ogre or even a Feral Mineral Warrior Half-Ogre, in which case you should be. :)
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man
08-19-04, 04:23 PM Heck, just take the Half-Ogre template and CALL yourself a Bugbear. The two do have some similarities.

it's your game after all, and that is a minor tweak to make to take advantage of the better game mechanics
SpartanMD
08-19-04, 04:25 PM Originally posted by Minotaur

I am currently playing Bugbear. My plan for my character is:

1 Bugbear
2 Bugbear
3 Bugbear
4 Bugbear
5 Bbn 1
6 Rng 1
7 Rng 2
8 Devoted Defender
9 Devoted Defender
10 Devoted Defender

Not sure what I will be doing next. But I am very happy with being a Bugbear.

What is the character's story? How do the other PCs and NPCs react to him or her? Is this a good character?
SpartanMD
08-19-04, 04:29 PM Originally posted by Dirty Dan the Laundry Man
Heck, just take the Half-Ogre template and CALL yourself a Bugbear. The two do have some similarities.

it's your game after all, and that is a minor tweak to make to take advantage of the better game mechanics

I'm at work so forgive me if I'm not remembering the bonuses right, but ...

Half orgre +6 str +2 con -2 cha, ? natural armor, size Large

Bugbear +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Dex, -2 Cha, +3 natural armor, +4 move silently

Is this correct? I thought that half-orge seemed pretty unbalancing also. I also agree that BB seems about equivalent to asimar or tiefling if you take away those 3d8.
Minotaur
08-19-04, 05:23 PM Half-Ogre: +6 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, Large, +4 Nat Armor
Bugbear: +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha, +3 Nat Armor, +4 move silently
Aasimar: +2 Wis, +2 Cha, +2 spot/listen, Daylight 1/day, resist acid, cold and electricity 5
Tiefling: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, +2 bluff/hide, Darkness 1/day, resist cold, electricity and fire 5

When talking about Fighter-types Str just owns the other stats. When talking about caster-type, move on, in most cases an LA is not worth the cost of getting your next spells a level later.

Comparing the Bugbear (with the burden of 3d8 Humanoid HD) to the Half-Ogre is a interesting question. If you are going to take advantage of the reach, then Half-Ogre is maybe better. But if you are not, I think the Bugbear (sans HD) is the right choice. I do not believe that the Aasimar and Tielfling can really hold a candle to the Bugbear with out the burden of his HDs, and even then, I think the Bugbear is better.

As to my Characters story:
We are in the Underdark. All the PCs used to be servants/slave for a Dark Elf house that was destroyed. We were tasked by the Matron of the House to deliver her Albino Dark Elf Sorcerer son to another Dark Elf city far off.

The Party is a Goliath* Cleric, Chitine Rogue, Warforged** Wizard, Kobold Sorcerer and Dwarf Monk as well as the Albino Dark Elf Sorcerer we are working for. So you can see, my bugbear does not really stick out. My bugbear was a soldier for the house and has been charge as the Albino Dark Elf's bodyguard, part of the reason I am going into Devoted Defender with him.

*Was a Half-Giant, DM let him change to a Goliath when Races of Stone came out.
**Is a Dwarf version of Warforged, so as to match the world/setting better.
MoogleEmpMog
08-19-04, 05:25 PM Minotaur:

The +2 Dex and +2 natural armor are impossible to make up for?

Not at all.

A fighter in full plate will only benefit from that +2 Dex if he started with a Dex below 12, which is, IMX, unlikely. And the natural armor becomes obsolete as soon as both characters have enough spare cash for an Amulet of Natural Armor +3 - yes, the bugbear could save money and not buy one, but then he's settling for his lower AC.

On to more general points, though.

For starters, try a dwarf fighter instead of a human. After all, the dwarf is the core race with favored class: fighter, as well as the iconic fighter. There goes the bugbear's hp advantage at 8th level, as well as the advantage of darkvision.

At 4th level, our dwarf is probably wielding a dwarven waraxe rather than a battleaxe/long sword, for 5.95 average damage. The bugbear has the feats to obtain a bastard sword by 8th level, so we can leave that out of it.

At 8th level, both dwarf and bugbear have 2 attacks due to BAB - but the bugbear just got his second attack. If you make the comparison at 6th level or 7th level, the dwarf has 2 attacks on a full attack, the bugbear only 1. And this repeats at 11th & 12th and 16th & 17th. That's 6 levels out of 20 where the dwarf has a clear advantage.

The dwarf has a *ton* of racial bonuses and special abilities, which clearly eclipse +4 move silently. Especially since the characters in your example (and mine) are wearing full plate, so they're not likely to be sneaking about much...

The bugbear may be better on to-hit and damage (although a half-orc would eclipse him), but the dwarf's higher actual BAB means he qualifies for feats sooner - vital feats like Improved Crit.

Needless to say, the dwarf is going to win the saves battle with most anybody.

If the dwarf got *nasty*, he could take three levels of dwarf paragon, get a Con and hp *advantage,* and then become a dwarven defender once he qualified (as he would have, by 8th, I believe) - advantage, dwarf by a long shot. The bugbear is still too low in skill ranks and BAB to qualify for most PrCs, and has no nifty racial PrCs to take. The dwarf (or human) also has an advantage in that he can pick up a level of barbarian, a level or three of ranger, whatever floats his boat, without suffering XP penalties.

Good find on Devoted Defender for a bugbear character, though - it's one of my favorite low-entry-point PrCs and goes a long way toward making monsters 'acceptable' in civilized societies.
Minotaur
08-19-04, 05:52 PM Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog
[B]Minotaur:

The +2 Dex and +2 natural armor are impossible to make up for?

Not at all.

A fighter in full plate will only benefit from that +2 Dex if he started with a Dex below 12, which is, IMX, unlikely. And the natural armor becomes obsolete as soon as both characters have enough spare cash for an Amulet of Natural Armor +3 - yes, the bugbear could save money and not buy one, but then he's settling for his lower AC.

That was true in 3.0. However, in 3.5 the amulet of natural armor is an enhancement bonus to the Bugbear's base natural armor, and so they stack. As for the Dex, this lets the Bugbear either place a higher stat somewhere else leaving his Dex at 12 or at higher levels take Darkleaf or Mithral Full Plate. In general I would take a 16 Dex if you can so you can use Mithral later, but with the addition of Darkleaf in Eberron, 14 is fine too.

On to more general points, though.

For starters, try a dwarf fighter instead of a human. After all, the dwarf is the core race with favored class: fighter, as well as the iconic fighter. There goes the bugbear's hp advantage at 8th level, as well as the advantage of darkvision.

At 4th level, our dwarf is probably wielding a dwarven waraxe rather than a battleaxe/long sword, for 5.95 average damage. The bugbear has the feats to obtain a bastard sword by 8th level, so we can leave that out of it.

At 8th level, both dwarf and bugbear have 2 attacks due to BAB - but the bugbear just got his second attack. If you make the comparison at 6th level or 7th level, the dwarf has 2 attacks on a full attack, the bugbear only 1. And this repeats at 11th & 12th and 16th & 17th. That's 6 levels out of 20 where the dwarf has a clear advantage.

You are right, in my haste I forgot to include iteratives. That is a factor, and it make it a lot harder to compare since you have to assume some average ACs for the monsters you are fighting, and frankly I am just to lazy to go throught all that math :)

The dwarf has a *ton* of racial bonuses and special abilities, which clearly eclipse +4 move silently. Especially since the characters in your example (and mine) are wearing full plate, so they're not likely to be sneaking about much...

The bugbear may be better on to-hit and damage (although a half-orc would eclipse him), but the dwarf's higher actual BAB means he qualifies for feats sooner - vital feats like Improved Crit.

Needless to say, the dwarf is going to win the saves battle with most anybody

My point is that while the Bugbears LA +1 looks costly at 4th level as you get closer and closer to 20th level, the Bugbear's stats really start to shine. As you approach 20th level, the Dwarf's bonus's are less and less interesting. The Dwarf's higher BAB is less of a factor. Honestly, having 20/15/10/5 or 18/13/8 makes very little difference. That last iterative is not very likely to hit anyway. Sure the save bumps are really nice and will always be important. But frankly in most campaigns being +1 to hit goblinoids is not going to be much of a factor.

All that being said, I have a lot of respect for Dwarves, and saving throws could easily be more important than AC at high levels.
MoogleEmpMog
08-19-04, 09:56 PM So Amulets of NA stack with base natural armor, now...? I never noticed that change. I know what the next dragon I DM will be spending some of his hoard for. :smirk:

At 20th level, though:

A bugbear fighter is probably about equal to a dwarf fighter, doing more damage but having fewer hp and worse saves.

A bugbear barbarian is +2 Str and -2 Con relative to a dwarf barbarian (because the bugbear doesn't have greater rage), in addition to being short on useful racial bonuses, mostly to saves.

And all four are being simultaneously eaten by a venerable gnome monk/druid.

:D
Elgonn
08-19-04, 10:12 PM If you really want to make the Bugbear look bad compare it to an Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale. The whale even has 1 less ECL so give it Mineral Warrior to even it up.
Funny Slaughter
08-20-04, 04:53 AM as himself seems to be a bit away from the boards i chime in to suggest that you look out for posts from Otto the Bugbear. His name is program, he made the best bugbear-builds ever and i dont think they've ever got beaten!

gs
Funny
CompleteSatori
08-20-04, 10:11 AM Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog
And all four are being simultaneously eaten by a venerable gnome monk/druid.

Who had better have only 1 level of Monk or he is sub-optimal in the extreme.
The Druid 16/ Shiba Protector 1/ Warshaper 3 with a Monks Belt is even more going to eat them!
MoogleEmpMog
08-20-04, 11:31 AM Originally posted by CompleteSatori
Who had better have only 1 level of Monk or he is sub-optimal in the extreme.
The Druid 16/ Shiba Protector 1/ Warshaper 3 with a Monks Belt is even more going to eat them!

Nah. A Druid 16/ Shiba Protector 1/Warshaper 3 doesn't demean himself by even having encounters with non-Epic members of the warrior classes. If he did, Kord would send avatars to kill him... or die trying...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SpartanMD 08-19-04, 11:52 AM	I just got Savage species, and was intrigued by the example of the Bugbear barbarian. What struck me was how under powered the character was as a 5th level character vs. a standard 5th level 1/2 orc barbarian in the DMG. The DMG char has better BAB, MUCH better hp, more skills etc..... Any way to start off as a 1st level character? To make bugbear a standard race with a ELC of +1? When you compare the half orge and the bug bear its not even close! A 4th level half orge barbarian would wipe the floor with a 1st level bugbear barbarian in the SS. (a 1st level barbarian with 3HD of Bugbear).
helicopter 08-19-04, 12:02 PM	Savage Speceis was meant to show players how to convert monsters to playable characters. But not show them how to make them more powerful than standard race characters. the majority of the SS monster races are below average on the power scale -- as you have noticed with the bugbear.
MoogleEmpMog 08-19-04, 12:26 PM	Sad yet true. There are very few monsters capable of hanging with straight 1-20 base class melee characters. Now imagine how they fare compared to even multiclassed core fighting builds, or spellcasters, or, as you see, strong low-LA no-hit dice races like half-ogre. The problem is racial hit dice. Monks, arugably one of the weaker base classes without careful preparation and a strong grasp of their specialties, get a bucketload of special abilities per level. They also get: d8 hit dice 3/4 BAB all good saves 4 + Int skill points Compare that with basic humanoid hit dice: d8 hit dice 3/4 BAB one good save 2 + Int skill points So a creature with humanoid hit dice should have abilities not only equal to a monk's special abilities (many of the best of which come at low levels), but a significant amount better to make up for two saves and 2 sp/level. Monstrous humanoid is decent (d8, 1/1 BAB, 2 good saves, 2+Int), magical beast is quite good (d10, 1/1 BAB, 2 good saves, 2+Int), outsider is very good (d8, 1/1 BAB, 3 good saves, 6+Int) and dragon is better than any PC class hit dice (d12, 1/1 BAB, 3 good saves, 6+Int). Everything else is an LA unto itself. Bugbears should have an LA of 0 at most; a bugbear barbarian 1 is still much weaker than a human barbarian 4. I once ran the bugbear through BESM d20's racial mods system (admittedly, that system isn't big on balance, but...): He came out to being, effectively, ECL 1.4, with his three hit dice.
SpartanMD 08-19-04, 12:38 PM	How would you set up a 0 HD bugbear character? WOuld you just use mods in DMG and then give +1 level? What also burns me is that a bugbear is equivalent to a 4th char levels! So according to SS, if my 7th level human barbarian gets reincarnated into a bugbear, he needs XP of an 11th level char to advance! This seems crazy! I also question whether a bugbear is as powerful (with no HD option) as a tiefling or asimar....
Minotaur 08-19-04, 02:05 PM	Interesting. I had the opposite reaction to the bugbear. I felt like it was a deal at only +1 LA. Lets look at this. Assumptions: Same cash based ECL, same access to magic items and feats, same base stats. Human Fighter 4th level vs Bugbear 0 Levels Hit Points: 26.5 vs 16.5; While the Bugbear has +2 Con, the Human Fighter has gotten 3d10+10 (max for first level), more than making up for it. Armor Class: 20 vs 19; While the Bugbear has +2 Dex and +3 Natural Armor, by 4th level the Human is going to have Full Plate and Heavy shield. Bugbear is only proficient in light armor. Atk Bonus: +4 vs +4; while the Human Fighter gets +4 for his level, the Bugbear is going to have +4 str over the Human Fighter giving him +2 BAB and +2 from Str. So that is Equal. Damage: 4.95 (longsword) vs 6.825 (morningstar); Human has access to martial weapon and the Bugbear does not, however the Bugbear has +2 Dmg from his +4 Str bonus. Saves: +4/+1/+1 vs +2/+4/+1; slight advantage to the Bugbear hear, again do to his stat bonuses. Skills:: 21 vs 12; This is a tough one to judge, while the Human Fighter will have more skill points and his max is going to higher, Listen and Spot as Feats: 6 vs 2; Human Fighter own this category. However, the Bugbear has +4 Move Silently and Darkvision 60' which are both worth more than a feat. Other: Human Fighter being 4th level gets his +1 Stat bump, the Bugbear has to get one more HD before he gets it. Round 1 winner: Human Fighter; A lot more HPs, Skill points and Feats, the Human Fighter is just better than Bugbear, at this level Human Fighter 8th level vs Bugbear 4th level Fighter Hit Points: 44.5 vs 47; The Bugbear has now pulled into the lead on the HP race, his +2 Con bonus is really showing its advantages now. Armor Class: 20 vs 24; The Bugbear has now pulled into the lead on the AC race too, now that he has access to all the same armor and shields that the human fighter has his +3 natural armor and +2 Dex bonus are impossible for the human fighter to make up for. The Bugbear will just always be +3 AC over the human fighter. Atk Bonus: +8 vs +8; this continues to be equal, while the Bugbear is down 1 for humaniod hit dice and 1 for LA, his +4 Str makes up for it. Damage: 4.95 (longsword) vs 7.15 (longsword); Now that the Bugbear has access to all the same weapons that the Human does, his +4 Str just keeps him doing more damage than the Human. This is even a larger gap if they are both using a Two Handed Weapons. Saves: +6/+2/+2 vs +6/+5/+2; Bugbear is now clearly winning this race to. Having gotten a nice bump to Reflex saves as well as superior Con and Dex stats, he just will always have better saves than the Human Fighter. Skills:: 33 vs 20; I am going to have to give this one to the Human. While the Bugbear will always have an advantage in Listen and Spot, the Human is just going to dominate him in skill points to spend. Feats: 9 vs 6; While the Human own this category the Bugbear still has +4 Move Silently and Darkvision 60' which are both worth more than a feat. The difference is not as great as it was at 4th level. Other: Human Fighter being 8th level gets his +1 Stat bump, the Bugbear has to get one more HD before he gets it. Round 2 winner:Bugbear; More HPs, more AC, more damage and better saves. While the Human has better access to PrCs do to having more feats and skill points to play with. We could go on with this little experiment, but I think you can see that as the levels go on, the Bugbear's stat bumps, natural armor and darkvision more than make up for the 3 Humanoid HD and +1 LA. The Human is always going to get into PrC earlier, and of coarse this discusion is only interessting if we are talking about a non-caster character. For some builds the Favored Class: Rogue might be challenging. I am currently playing Bugbear. My plan for my character is: 1 Bugbear 2 Bugbear 3 Bugbear 4 Bugbear 5 Bbn 1 6 Rng 1 7 Rng 2 8 Devoted Defender 9 Devoted Defender 10 Devoted Defender Not sure what I will be doing next. But I am very happy with being a Bugbear.
SpartanMD 08-19-04, 04:09 PM	Minotaur, nice analysis! Wow! I was comparing the bugbear barrbarian (5levels) vs the 5th half orc barbarian in the DMG and at that level, the half orc was superior. But I guess the Bugbear catches up to the human at mid levels.... My main argument is the BAB. feat selection and skill points always favor the standard races. You can play a half orge and start as a 1st level barbarian, why can't you do this with a bugbear, and just take the +1 LA? If you take away the 3d8 hp, the bugbear doesn't look more overpowered than the half orge, the tiefling or the asimar, IMHO. I'm making a 10th level character, with as many of those levels being barbarian as possible. I just think 4 levels is a lot for not much in return.
Minotaur 08-19-04, 04:15 PM	Spartan, Half-Ogre is just plan too good at LA +1. And if you can be one, I highly recommend it, the Bugbear just looses to it hands down. However, compared to more appropriate LA creatures like Half Dragon and Aasimar, I feel that the Bugbear is a good deal. I think that at ECL 4, the Bugbear is a little rough, but that is your toughest level, and if you are starting at 10 and expect to going up to 15 or more, I believe you will be very happy with the Bugbear. Unless you can be a Half-Ogre or even a Feral Mineral Warrior Half-Ogre, in which case you should be. :)
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 08-19-04, 04:23 PM	Heck, just take the Half-Ogre template and CALL yourself a Bugbear. The two do have some similarities. it's your game after all, and that is a minor tweak to make to take advantage of the better game mechanics
SpartanMD 08-19-04, 04:25 PM	Originally posted by Minotaur I am currently playing Bugbear. My plan for my character is: 1 Bugbear 2 Bugbear 3 Bugbear 4 Bugbear 5 Bbn 1 6 Rng 1 7 Rng 2 8 Devoted Defender 9 Devoted Defender 10 Devoted Defender Not sure what I will be doing next. But I am very happy with being a Bugbear. What is the character's story? How do the other PCs and NPCs react to him or her? Is this a good character?
SpartanMD 08-19-04, 04:29 PM	Originally posted by Dirty Dan the Laundry Man Heck, just take the Half-Ogre template and CALL yourself a Bugbear. The two do have some similarities. it's your game after all, and that is a minor tweak to make to take advantage of the better game mechanics I'm at work so forgive me if I'm not remembering the bonuses right, but ... Half orgre +6 str +2 con -2 cha, ? natural armor, size Large Bugbear +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Dex, -2 Cha, +3 natural armor, +4 move silently Is this correct? I thought that half-orge seemed pretty unbalancing also. I also agree that BB seems about equivalent to asimar or tiefling if you take away those 3d8.
Minotaur 08-19-04, 05:23 PM	Half-Ogre: +6 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, Large, +4 Nat Armor Bugbear: +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha, +3 Nat Armor, +4 move silently Aasimar: +2 Wis, +2 Cha, +2 spot/listen, Daylight 1/day, resist acid, cold and electricity 5 Tiefling: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, +2 bluff/hide, Darkness 1/day, resist cold, electricity and fire 5 When talking about Fighter-types Str just owns the other stats. When talking about caster-type, move on, in most cases an LA is not worth the cost of getting your next spells a level later. Comparing the Bugbear (with the burden of 3d8 Humanoid HD) to the Half-Ogre is a interesting question. If you are going to take advantage of the reach, then Half-Ogre is maybe better. But if you are not, I think the Bugbear (sans HD) is the right choice. I do not believe that the Aasimar and Tielfling can really hold a candle to the Bugbear with out the burden of his HDs, and even then, I think the Bugbear is better. As to my Characters story: We are in the Underdark. All the PCs used to be servants/slave for a Dark Elf house that was destroyed. We were tasked by the Matron of the House to deliver her Albino Dark Elf Sorcerer son to another Dark Elf city far off. The Party is a Goliath* Cleric, Chitine Rogue, Warforged** Wizard, Kobold Sorcerer and Dwarf Monk as well as the Albino Dark Elf Sorcerer we are working for. So you can see, my bugbear does not really stick out. My bugbear was a soldier for the house and has been charge as the Albino Dark Elf's bodyguard, part of the reason I am going into Devoted Defender with him. Was a Half-Giant, DM let him change to a Goliath when Races of Stone came out. *Is a Dwarf version of Warforged, so as to match the world/setting better.
MoogleEmpMog 08-19-04, 05:25 PM	Minotaur: The +2 Dex and +2 natural armor are impossible to make up for? Not at all. A fighter in full plate will only benefit from that +2 Dex if he started with a Dex below 12, which is, IMX, unlikely. And the natural armor becomes obsolete as soon as both characters have enough spare cash for an Amulet of Natural Armor +3 - yes, the bugbear could save money and not buy one, but then he's settling for his lower AC. On to more general points, though. For starters, try a dwarf fighter instead of a human. After all, the dwarf is the core race with favored class: fighter, as well as the iconic fighter. There goes the bugbear's hp advantage at 8th level, as well as the advantage of darkvision. At 4th level, our dwarf is probably wielding a dwarven waraxe rather than a battleaxe/long sword, for 5.95 average damage. The bugbear has the feats to obtain a bastard sword by 8th level, so we can leave that out of it. At 8th level, both dwarf and bugbear have 2 attacks due to BAB - but the bugbear just got his second attack. If you make the comparison at 6th level or 7th level, the dwarf has 2 attacks on a full attack, the bugbear only 1. And this repeats at 11th & 12th and 16th & 17th. That's 6 levels out of 20 where the dwarf has a clear advantage. The dwarf has a ton of racial bonuses and special abilities, which clearly eclipse +4 move silently. Especially since the characters in your example (and mine) are wearing full plate, so they're not likely to be sneaking about much... The bugbear may be better on to-hit and damage (although a half-orc would eclipse him), but the dwarf's higher actual BAB means he qualifies for feats sooner - vital feats like Improved Crit. Needless to say, the dwarf is going to win the saves battle with most anybody. If the dwarf got nasty, he could take three levels of dwarf paragon, get a Con and hp advantage, and then become a dwarven defender once he qualified (as he would have, by 8th, I believe) - advantage, dwarf by a long shot. The bugbear is still too low in skill ranks and BAB to qualify for most PrCs, and has no nifty racial PrCs to take. The dwarf (or human) also has an advantage in that he can pick up a level of barbarian, a level or three of ranger, whatever floats his boat, without suffering XP penalties. Good find on Devoted Defender for a bugbear character, though - it's one of my favorite low-entry-point PrCs and goes a long way toward making monsters 'acceptable' in civilized societies.
Minotaur 08-19-04, 05:52 PM	Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog [B]Minotaur: The +2 Dex and +2 natural armor are impossible to make up for? Not at all. A fighter in full plate will only benefit from that +2 Dex if he started with a Dex below 12, which is, IMX, unlikely. And the natural armor becomes obsolete as soon as both characters have enough spare cash for an Amulet of Natural Armor +3 - yes, the bugbear could save money and not buy one, but then he's settling for his lower AC. That was true in 3.0. However, in 3.5 the amulet of natural armor is an enhancement bonus to the Bugbear's base natural armor, and so they stack. As for the Dex, this lets the Bugbear either place a higher stat somewhere else leaving his Dex at 12 or at higher levels take Darkleaf or Mithral Full Plate. In general I would take a 16 Dex if you can so you can use Mithral later, but with the addition of Darkleaf in Eberron, 14 is fine too. On to more general points, though. For starters, try a dwarf fighter instead of a human. After all, the dwarf is the core race with favored class: fighter, as well as the iconic fighter. There goes the bugbear's hp advantage at 8th level, as well as the advantage of darkvision. At 4th level, our dwarf is probably wielding a dwarven waraxe rather than a battleaxe/long sword, for 5.95 average damage. The bugbear has the feats to obtain a bastard sword by 8th level, so we can leave that out of it. At 8th level, both dwarf and bugbear have 2 attacks due to BAB - but the bugbear just got his second attack. If you make the comparison at 6th level or 7th level, the dwarf has 2 attacks on a full attack, the bugbear only 1. And this repeats at 11th & 12th and 16th & 17th. That's 6 levels out of 20 where the dwarf has a clear advantage. You are right, in my haste I forgot to include iteratives. That is a factor, and it make it a lot harder to compare since you have to assume some average ACs for the monsters you are fighting, and frankly I am just to lazy to go throught all that math :) The dwarf has a ton of racial bonuses and special abilities, which clearly eclipse +4 move silently. Especially since the characters in your example (and mine) are wearing full plate, so they're not likely to be sneaking about much... The bugbear may be better on to-hit and damage (although a half-orc would eclipse him), but the dwarf's higher actual BAB means he qualifies for feats sooner - vital feats like Improved Crit. Needless to say, the dwarf is going to win the saves battle with most anybody My point is that while the Bugbears LA +1 looks costly at 4th level as you get closer and closer to 20th level, the Bugbear's stats really start to shine. As you approach 20th level, the Dwarf's bonus's are less and less interesting. The Dwarf's higher BAB is less of a factor. Honestly, having 20/15/10/5 or 18/13/8 makes very little difference. That last iterative is not very likely to hit anyway. Sure the save bumps are really nice and will always be important. But frankly in most campaigns being +1 to hit goblinoids is not going to be much of a factor. All that being said, I have a lot of respect for Dwarves, and saving throws could easily be more important than AC at high levels.
MoogleEmpMog 08-19-04, 09:56 PM	So Amulets of NA stack with base natural armor, now...? I never noticed that change. I know what the next dragon I DM will be spending some of his hoard for. :smirk: At 20th level, though: A bugbear fighter is probably about equal to a dwarf fighter, doing more damage but having fewer hp and worse saves. A bugbear barbarian is +2 Str and -2 Con relative to a dwarf barbarian (because the bugbear doesn't have greater rage), in addition to being short on useful racial bonuses, mostly to saves. And all four are being simultaneously eaten by a venerable gnome monk/druid. :D
Elgonn 08-19-04, 10:12 PM	If you really want to make the Bugbear look bad compare it to an Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale. The whale even has 1 less ECL so give it Mineral Warrior to even it up.
Funny Slaughter 08-20-04, 04:53 AM	as himself seems to be a bit away from the boards i chime in to suggest that you look out for posts from Otto the Bugbear. His name is program, he made the best bugbear-builds ever and i dont think they've ever got beaten! gs Funny
CompleteSatori 08-20-04, 10:11 AM	Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog And all four are being simultaneously eaten by a venerable gnome monk/druid. Who had better have only 1 level of Monk or he is sub-optimal in the extreme. The Druid 16/ Shiba Protector 1/ Warshaper 3 with a Monks Belt is even more going to eat them!
MoogleEmpMog 08-20-04, 11:31 AM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori Who had better have only 1 level of Monk or he is sub-optimal in the extreme. The Druid 16/ Shiba Protector 1/ Warshaper 3 with a Monks Belt is even more going to eat them! Nah. A Druid 16/ Shiba Protector 1/Warshaper 3 doesn't demean himself by even having encounters with non-Epic members of the warrior classes. If he did, Kord would send avatars to kill him... or die trying...