Build 1 vs Build 2, who wins? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Build 1 vs Build 2, who wins? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Count_Rugen
05-31-06, 10:20 AM 1.) lvl 10 wiz/ lvl 5 argent savant/ lvl 5 archmage
2.) lvl 10 wiz/ lvl 10 elemental savant

Would you consider both of these builds to be "high-powered?" Or just average?
In general, which has the most pro's vs the most cons? Opinions?
_J_
05-31-06, 10:33 AM In high levels, it's all about initiative. Both of those characters should be able to kill the other in one turn, provided neither has had any time to prepare. If they have had, then the one who wins initiative should still win, as he'll just throw the other with Mordenkainen's disjunction followed by a quickened save-or-die spell.

If contigencies are in the game, it becomes tricky. Both should have Celerity (PHBII) as a contigency to go off at the beginning of the battle, and I don't think there is a way to solve which character gets its contigency off first.
JosephKell
05-31-06, 11:11 AM Build 3 wins. Build 3 is the WoW-esque PvP server lurker that waits until a person is nearly dead to attack them. In this case attacking both once they are weak.

Honestly this is a really stupid question. A wizards' spells are more important to determine who wins. And honestly, if it is just Arcanist vs Arcanist a Sorcerer will win. Sorcerers are better without support than Wizards just because they can spontaneously choose which spells to use.

I know this from experience, a few years back, my friend Jeff used a half-fiend elf Sorcerer in a fight vs a Wizard/Incantrix. Sorcerers have more flexibility while Wizards have more versatility. But when it comes to battle magic, you can't beat the Sorcerer or Warmage (spontaneous magic makes replayability is the solution).

-Jonathan
Count_Rugen
05-31-06, 11:16 AM Thanks a bunch _J_! Thanks a bit less Joe.

Let me rephrase my question as it was misinterpreted. I'm a lvl 2 wizard. I'm pondering these two career choices. Which would you choose and why?
_J_
05-31-06, 11:26 AM Of those two I'd take the Argent savant/Archmage one. Loses less casting than that Elemental savant does. Losing even a little casting is really bad for someone who focuses on it!

-J-
Count_Rugen
05-31-06, 11:40 AM Of those two I'd take the Argent savant/Archmage one. Loses less casting than that Elemental savant does. Losing even a little casting is really bad for someone who focuses on it!

-J-

Good point... The problem with Archmage is it's particular feats. I've been searching for a "filler" PrC to replace Argent Savant that would still allow me to go the Archmage route (and not lose any caster levels) but darned if I can find one. Have any suggestions?
Sci
05-31-06, 12:07 PM Good point... The problem with Archmage is it's particular feats. I've been searching for a "filler" PrC to replace Argent Savant that would still allow me to go the Archmage route (and not lose any caster levels) but darned if I can find one. Have any suggestions?

Personally, I would get the heck out of wizard into a full-caster prc as soon as possible! They get all the abilities of wizard and more, even if it's nothing great. Geometer is really helpful for levels 6-10, because it will greatly reduce the cost of copying spells into your spellbook. What books are allowed? If you DM allows Dragonlance, I recommend the Warmage (the prestige class, not the base class) from, I believe, Age of Mortal. It lets you tag extra damage to each dice of the spells you cast...kind of like Argent Savant but with ANY damage-dealing spells. It also lets you negate the penalty from wearing armor, and buff up your party members' defense without using spells.
_J_
05-31-06, 12:19 PM If you have access to Player's guide to Faerun, Incantatrix is a good PrC. It requires any metamagic feat and Iron will, and you have to lose access to one school of spells just like you would have specialized, but it has full casting, bonus metamagic feat at levels 1, 4, 7 and 10, killer class abilities that let you spontaneously use metamagic with spells without raising the level of the spell.

Other than that, there are a few good candidates. Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil from Complete arcane is really good, but it requires quite a lot of feats, though they overlap with Archmage requirements pretty well. Loremaster isn't bad, but has awful requirements. Divine oracle from Complete divine also requires a pretty useless feat, but is pretty good otherwise.
Count_Rugen
05-31-06, 02:37 PM It's an Eberron game so tragically, MoF and Dragonlance books aren't allowed.
Initiate of the 7fold Veil looks good, but level-wise it seems like it'd be vieing for competition with the Archmage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Count_Rugen 05-31-06, 10:20 AM	1.) lvl 10 wiz/ lvl 5 argent savant/ lvl 5 archmage 2.) lvl 10 wiz/ lvl 10 elemental savant Would you consider both of these builds to be "high-powered?" Or just average? In general, which has the most pro's vs the most cons? Opinions?
_J_ 05-31-06, 10:33 AM	In high levels, it's all about initiative. Both of those characters should be able to kill the other in one turn, provided neither has had any time to prepare. If they have had, then the one who wins initiative should still win, as he'll just throw the other with Mordenkainen's disjunction followed by a quickened save-or-die spell. If contigencies are in the game, it becomes tricky. Both should have Celerity (PHBII) as a contigency to go off at the beginning of the battle, and I don't think there is a way to solve which character gets its contigency off first.
JosephKell 05-31-06, 11:11 AM	Build 3 wins. Build 3 is the WoW-esque PvP server lurker that waits until a person is nearly dead to attack them. In this case attacking both once they are weak. Honestly this is a really stupid question. A wizards' spells are more important to determine who wins. And honestly, if it is just Arcanist vs Arcanist a Sorcerer will win. Sorcerers are better without support than Wizards just because they can spontaneously choose which spells to use. I know this from experience, a few years back, my friend Jeff used a half-fiend elf Sorcerer in a fight vs a Wizard/Incantrix. Sorcerers have more flexibility while Wizards have more versatility. But when it comes to battle magic, you can't beat the Sorcerer or Warmage (spontaneous magic makes replayability is the solution). -Jonathan
Count_Rugen 05-31-06, 11:16 AM	Thanks a bunch _J_! Thanks a bit less Joe. Let me rephrase my question as it was misinterpreted. I'm a lvl 2 wizard. I'm pondering these two career choices. Which would you choose and why?
_J_ 05-31-06, 11:26 AM	Of those two I'd take the Argent savant/Archmage one. Loses less casting than that Elemental savant does. Losing even a little casting is really bad for someone who focuses on it! -J-
Count_Rugen 05-31-06, 11:40 AM	Of those two I'd take the Argent savant/Archmage one. Loses less casting than that Elemental savant does. Losing even a little casting is really bad for someone who focuses on it! -J- Good point... The problem with Archmage is it's particular feats. I've been searching for a "filler" PrC to replace Argent Savant that would still allow me to go the Archmage route (and not lose any caster levels) but darned if I can find one. Have any suggestions?
Sci 05-31-06, 12:07 PM	Good point... The problem with Archmage is it's particular feats. I've been searching for a "filler" PrC to replace Argent Savant that would still allow me to go the Archmage route (and not lose any caster levels) but darned if I can find one. Have any suggestions? Personally, I would get the heck out of wizard into a full-caster prc as soon as possible! They get all the abilities of wizard and more, even if it's nothing great. Geometer is really helpful for levels 6-10, because it will greatly reduce the cost of copying spells into your spellbook. What books are allowed? If you DM allows Dragonlance, I recommend the Warmage (the prestige class, not the base class) from, I believe, Age of Mortal. It lets you tag extra damage to each dice of the spells you cast...kind of like Argent Savant but with ANY damage-dealing spells. It also lets you negate the penalty from wearing armor, and buff up your party members' defense without using spells.
_J_ 05-31-06, 12:19 PM	If you have access to Player's guide to Faerun, Incantatrix is a good PrC. It requires any metamagic feat and Iron will, and you have to lose access to one school of spells just like you would have specialized, but it has full casting, bonus metamagic feat at levels 1, 4, 7 and 10, killer class abilities that let you spontaneously use metamagic with spells without raising the level of the spell. Other than that, there are a few good candidates. Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil from Complete arcane is really good, but it requires quite a lot of feats, though they overlap with Archmage requirements pretty well. Loremaster isn't bad, but has awful requirements. Divine oracle from Complete divine also requires a pretty useless feat, but is pretty good otherwise.
Count_Rugen 05-31-06, 02:37 PM	It's an Eberron game so tragically, MoF and Dragonlance books aren't allowed. Initiate of the 7fold Veil looks good, but level-wise it seems like it'd be vieing for competition with the Archmage.