Build a Psion Army [Archive] - Wizards Community

Build a Psion Army [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lo77o
09-03-04, 06:43 AM Ok, asuming your are ECL 20 "Psion 10/Thrallherd 10"

Now you pick to psions as Thralls 17/17 so thats "psion 7/Thrallherd 10"
and they do the same... and so on and so on ... all the way down to "psion 5/thrallherd 1"

Asuming you have CHA 10, and so does all your thralls thats should give you...

2 lvl 17
2 lvl 16
4 lvl 15
6 lvl 6 - 14
and 6 lvl 5 "who is not thrallherds, only psions"

and on top of that you get this amount of belivers

3131 lvl 1 belivers
223 lvl 2 belivers
113 lvl 3 belivers
62 lvl 4 belivers
36 lvl 5 belivers
20 lvl 6 belivers

Ohhh and lets sey you loose all your Thralls and belivers in an epic battle... but you survive... you have to wait 24 hours to get a new army ..hehe

Now this cant be true... so plz pick it apart...
Piraatje
09-03-04, 06:56 AM Its true allright.

Now give all of them the astral construct power ;)
Lo77o
09-03-04, 07:06 AM I was thinking about that... its nice

Ohh and this just hit me... "i dont have the book right here"

Metaconcert... for every psion who joins, i can ad +1DC to my powers...

Wohoo, and all xp costs gets devided between all of us...
gbnogkfs
09-03-04, 08:56 AM Ok, asuming your are ECL 20 "Psion 10/Thrallherd 10"

Now you pick to psions as Thralls 17/17 so thats "psion 7/Thrallherd 10"
and they do the same... and so on and so on ... all the way down to "psion 5/thrallherd 1"

Asuming you have CHA 10, and so does all your thralls thats should give you...

2 lvl 17
2 lvl 16
4 lvl 15
6 lvl 6 - 14
and 6 lvl 5 "who is not thrallherds, only psions"

and on top of that you get this amount of belivers

3131 lvl 1 belivers
223 lvl 2 belivers
113 lvl 3 belivers
62 lvl 4 belivers
36 lvl 5 belivers
20 lvl 6 belivers

Ohhh and lets sey you loose all your Thralls and belivers in an epic battle... but you survive... you have to wait 24 hours to get a new army ..hehe

Now this cant be true... so plz pick it apart...

yeah, I like the leadership/thrall chains...

but it should be like this (assume all standard classes with no possibilities of getting thrallherd 1 before 6th level):

You have 2 thralls levels 17 and 16
every 17th lvl thrall gets two sub-thralls levels 16 and 15
every 16th lvl thrall gets two sub-thralls levels 15 and 14
every 15th lvl thrall gets two sub-thralls levels 14 and 13
every 14th lvl thrall gets one sub-thrall level 13
every 13th lvl thrall gets one sub-thrall level 12
...
every 6th lvl thrall gets one sub-thrall level 5

the total is:

1 Big Guy lvl 20 (the Ruler Of Them All)
1 lvl 17
2 lvl 16
3 lvl 15
5 lvl 14
8 lvl 13
8 lvl 12
8 lvl 11
8 lvl 10
...
8 lvl 5

but that is assuming the lower level thrallherds have no Cha penalties.

Now, assuming they all have Cha 10, you get, as far as believers are concerned:

27 lvl 6
40 lvl 5
75 lvl 4
130 lvl 3
164 lvl 2
2723 lvl 1

ON TOP, consider that level 6 believers can as well become thrallherds, thus giving you 27 other sub-thralls guys, but that's pretty the max you can get.

AND THAT is only considering the non-epic characters... consider that the leadership concept is much limited compared with what you get at epic levels...

It's been some time I wanted to do a worksheet to calculate how many people you have at your feets with epic levels... (that is, assuming your DM have you get the Epic Leadership feat and work with Thrallherds); I think I'm going to make one just now :cool:
Lo77o
09-03-04, 09:30 AM yeah, I like the leadership/thrall chains...

but it should be like this (assume all standard classes with no possibilities of getting thrallherd 1 before 6th level):

You have 2 thralls levels 17 and 16
every 17th lvl thrall gets two sub-thralls levels 16 and 15
every 16th lvl thrall gets two sub-thralls levels 15 and 14
every 15th lvl thrall gets two sub-thralls levels 14 and 13
every 14th lvl thrall gets one sub-thrall level 13
every 13th lvl thrall gets one sub-thrall level 12
...
every 6th lvl thrall gets one sub-thrall level 5

the total is:

1 Big Guy lvl 20 (the Ruler Of Them All)
1 lvl 17
2 lvl 16
3 lvl 15
5 lvl 14
8 lvl 13
8 lvl 12
8 lvl 11
8 lvl 10
...
8 lvl 5

but that is assuming the lower level thrallherds have no Cha penalties.

Now, assuming they all have Cha 10, you get, as far as believers are concerned:

27 lvl 6
40 lvl 5
75 lvl 4
130 lvl 3
164 lvl 2
2723 lvl 1

ON TOP, consider that level 6 believers can as well become thrallherds, thus giving you 27 other sub-thralls guys, but that's pretty the max you can get.

AND THAT is only considering the non-epic characters... consider that the leadership concept is much limited compared with what you get at epic levels...

It's been some time I wanted to do a worksheet to calculate how many people you have at your feets with epic levels... (that is, assuming your DM have you get the Epic Leadership feat and work with Thrallherds); I think I'm going to make one just now :cool:

Hmmm im shure you get 2 lvl 17 thralls at level 20..

1 has a maximum level "Your ECL -1"
and the other got "Your ECL -2"
So thats 19 and 18... but 17 is max... so 17 and 17...

Or i might be wrong.. :weep:
gbnogkfs
09-03-04, 11:23 AM Hmmm im shure you get 2 lvl 17 thralls at level 20..

1 has a maximum level "Your ECL -1"
and the other got "Your ECL -2"
So thats 19 and 18... but 17 is max... so 17 and 17...

Or i might be wrong.. :weep:

oooooops :D

sorry... that makes:

Master Of The Universe:
1 lvl 20

Thralls and thralls of thralls:
2 lvl 17
2 lvl 16
4 lvl 15
6 lvl 14
10 lvl 13
10 lvl 12
...
10 lvl 5

Believers, believers of thralls and believers of thralls of thralls:
34 lvl 6
50 lvl 5
94 lvl 4
163 lvl 3
331 lvl 2
3415 lvl 1

thralls of believers:
34 lvl 5

grand total of 4226 guys pre-epic (slightly augmentable for high cha followers)
Kyle_the_DM
09-03-04, 02:26 PM Believers can only be warriors, experts, and commoners though right?

The 6th level believers could have the leadership feat which would give them each a 4th level cohort.

If I were going to make an army like this I would make the 7th level thralls 3rd level psion/ 3rd level defender of sardior/ 1st level psionic dragon comrades. They would have enough leadership to have a cohort plus they would have a dragon, which in my opinion out weigh a bunch of low level believers.

Anyway, that's still pretty good. I think I might use that idea in my campaign, for highly psionic kingdom or something. Cool.

-Kyle
Kyle_the_DM
09-03-04, 04:10 PM Now that I think of it, this would be a good thing to use with the "mind war" series that came out a while back for the mind's eye. All of them could be blues.

Or the top psion could be an illithid and all of the lower psions half-illithid. Then the believers would be unknowing slaves.

Wow... the boards make me think. I'm gonna start planning my next full campaign...

-Kyle
gbnogkfs
09-03-04, 04:14 PM Believers can only be warriors, experts, and commoners though right?

uhhh, wrong :D

what's true is that the DM gets to choose the characteristics of the thralls and believers
Kyle_the_DM
09-03-04, 04:39 PM uhhh, wrong :D

what's true is that the DM gets to choose the characteristics of the thralls and believers

I must still be in 3.0....

In that case... :devil: ... "I call DM! I call DM!"

Thanks.
-Kyle
gbnogkfs
09-03-04, 05:45 PM I must still be in 3.0....

In that case... :devil: ... "I call DM! I call DM!"

yes, that was a 3.0 rule no longer present in the revised books (yeah, let the powerful creatures come to me :bow: )
Lo77o
09-04-04, 04:04 AM Believers can only be warriors, experts, and commoners though right?

The 6th level believers could have the leadership feat which would give them each a 4th level cohort.

If I were going to make an army like this I would make the 7th level thralls 3rd level psion/ 3rd level defender of sardior/ 1st level psionic dragon comrades. They would have enough leadership to have a cohort plus they would have a dragon, which in my opinion out weigh a bunch of low level believers.

Anyway, that's still pretty good. I think I might use that idea in my campaign, for highly psionic kingdom or something. Cool.

-Kyle

No leadership feat.... only thralls and belivers....

The thing is if you loose any of your thralls/belivers... you get new ones in 24 hours... and you dont get lover leadership score becourse of to many deaths..

Ohhh and every one should be Elans... that way no one needs to eat in my army... and all my thralls got enough Power Points to suck up a nice deal of damage with power points...

Ohhh and i dident know the restriction to followers class is removed in 3.5

Wohhooooo thats all most 3500 low level psions in my army... That would be a nice metaconcert.. +3500 to save DC on my powers... and 35000 Power Points to manifest from... hehe
gbnogkfs
09-04-04, 04:22 PM Wohhooooo thats all most 3500 low level psions in my army... That would be a nice metaconcert.. +3500 to save DC on my powers... and 35000 Power Points to manifest from... hehe

you would find some nice surprises reading the description of Metaconcert, like the "Target: You and up to nine other willing psionic creatures"-thing :cool:
Lo77o
09-04-04, 07:16 PM Ohhh man, way to spoil my fun...
Kyle_the_DM
09-06-04, 10:38 AM No leadership feat.... only thralls and belivers....

The thing is if you loose any of your thralls/belivers... you get new ones in 24 hours... and you dont get lover leadership score becourse of to many deaths..

I was refering to the believers and thralls having leadership not the thrallherd. Sorry if that confused you.
olothfaern
09-06-04, 11:26 AM you would find some nice surprises reading the description of Metaconcert, like the "Target: You and up to nine other willing psionic creatures"-thing :cool:

Isn't a metaconcert a psionic entity? Which means up to nine metaconcert entities could manifest another metaconcert, and so on, right?
gbnogkfs
09-06-04, 02:33 PM That's a goooooooooooood point. :cool:
First, I gently ask you to please have a look at my thread about Metaconcert in the Psionics board ("Metaconcert Clarifications"), and please say what you think about it.

Than, back to your trick... it is maybe technically available, but we have to remember Metaconcert has a manifestation time of 1 minute and a duration of 1 minute/level (augmentable 1PP/minute)...

... so, in two minutes' time we can metaconcert 10^2 people toghether
... in three minutes 10^3
and at the end of the fourth minute we can connect all the people of the chain (they are less than 10,000)...

all this requires that Metaconcert is manifested by one character every tenth (about 423 in my exemple of all 10 Cha people), and since Metaconcert is a 5th level power we need at least 423 10th level character (Thrallherds don't incease manifester level at 1st level)... but we only have 55 of them (that is the maximum pre-epic, no matter what charisma score you and the thralls have). The maximum we can connect is then 550 people (in 3 minutes' time).

Since a Metaconcert manifested by a 10th level character (the wickest links of the chain) has a duration of 9 minutes (manifester level 9), that leaves 7 minutes worth of manifesting time.

The total number of Metaconcerts manifested are 55+6+1=62, for a total of 62*9=558 PPs.
The whole party, supposing all the characters are psions with Int equal to the minimum score to manifest the power levels they have access to, and considering even the ones not involved in the SuperMetaconcert (they can swap between a SuperMetaconcert and the other) has something like 25,112 PPs, you are consuming 2,2% of your psionic potential to connect all these crazy people :D

One more thing: can you participate in more than one Metaconcert at a time? If so, you can connect more people spending more time; you can actually connect 4510 people if each 10-or-more-th level guy manifests 9 Metaconcert spending 9 minutes and consuming 9*9=81 PPs. Since to connect them all we need two more minutes, bringing the total manifesting time after the beginning of the effects of the first Metaconcerts to 10 minutes, each initial Metaconcert has to stay in effect by at least 11 minutes, requiring the expenditure of some extra points by 10th and 11th level thralls; let's say about 82 PPs each. Let's add the other 7 Metaconcert to connect the various orchestras out there and the total cost is about [b]4,500 PPs[b] (ouch!), that is 17-18% of your psionic potential... probably not worth it compared to the 550-people version above.

I know, that's a lot of numbers... but it's just fun :D :D

Kyle_the_DM: there's really no ppoint in giving thralls and believers the Leadership feat instead of becoming thrallherds.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lo77o 09-03-04, 06:43 AM	Ok, asuming your are ECL 20 "Psion 10/Thrallherd 10" Now you pick to psions as Thralls 17/17 so thats "psion 7/Thrallherd 10" and they do the same... and so on and so on ... all the way down to "psion 5/thrallherd 1" Asuming you have CHA 10, and so does all your thralls thats should give you... 2 lvl 17 2 lvl 16 4 lvl 15 6 lvl 6 - 14 and 6 lvl 5 "who is not thrallherds, only psions" and on top of that you get this amount of belivers 3131 lvl 1 belivers 223 lvl 2 belivers 113 lvl 3 belivers 62 lvl 4 belivers 36 lvl 5 belivers 20 lvl 6 belivers Ohhh and lets sey you loose all your Thralls and belivers in an epic battle... but you survive... you have to wait 24 hours to get a new army ..hehe Now this cant be true... so plz pick it apart...
Piraatje 09-03-04, 06:56 AM	Its true allright. Now give all of them the astral construct power ;)
Lo77o 09-03-04, 07:06 AM	I was thinking about that... its nice Ohh and this just hit me... "i dont have the book right here" Metaconcert... for every psion who joins, i can ad +1DC to my powers... Wohoo, and all xp costs gets devided between all of us...
gbnogkfs 09-03-04, 08:56 AM	Ok, asuming your are ECL 20 "Psion 10/Thrallherd 10" Now you pick to psions as Thralls 17/17 so thats "psion 7/Thrallherd 10" and they do the same... and so on and so on ... all the way down to "psion 5/thrallherd 1" Asuming you have CHA 10, and so does all your thralls thats should give you... 2 lvl 17 2 lvl 16 4 lvl 15 6 lvl 6 - 14 and 6 lvl 5 "who is not thrallherds, only psions" and on top of that you get this amount of belivers 3131 lvl 1 belivers 223 lvl 2 belivers 113 lvl 3 belivers 62 lvl 4 belivers 36 lvl 5 belivers 20 lvl 6 belivers Ohhh and lets sey you loose all your Thralls and belivers in an epic battle... but you survive... you have to wait 24 hours to get a new army ..hehe Now this cant be true... so plz pick it apart... yeah, I like the leadership/thrall chains... but it should be like this (assume all standard classes with no possibilities of getting thrallherd 1 before 6th level): You have 2 thralls levels 17 and 16 every 17th lvl thrall gets two sub-thralls levels 16 and 15 every 16th lvl thrall gets two sub-thralls levels 15 and 14 every 15th lvl thrall gets two sub-thralls levels 14 and 13 every 14th lvl thrall gets one sub-thrall level 13 every 13th lvl thrall gets one sub-thrall level 12 ... every 6th lvl thrall gets one sub-thrall level 5 the total is: 1 Big Guy lvl 20 (the Ruler Of Them All) 1 lvl 17 2 lvl 16 3 lvl 15 5 lvl 14 8 lvl 13 8 lvl 12 8 lvl 11 8 lvl 10 ... 8 lvl 5 but that is assuming the lower level thrallherds have no Cha penalties. Now, assuming they all have Cha 10, you get, as far as believers are concerned: 27 lvl 6 40 lvl 5 75 lvl 4 130 lvl 3 164 lvl 2 2723 lvl 1 ON TOP, consider that level 6 believers can as well become thrallherds, thus giving you 27 other sub-thralls guys, but that's pretty the max you can get. AND THAT is only considering the non-epic characters... consider that the leadership concept is much limited compared with what you get at epic levels... It's been some time I wanted to do a worksheet to calculate how many people you have at your feets with epic levels... (that is, assuming your DM have you get the Epic Leadership feat and work with Thrallherds); I think I'm going to make one just now :cool:
Lo77o 09-03-04, 09:30 AM	yeah, I like the leadership/thrall chains... but it should be like this (assume all standard classes with no possibilities of getting thrallherd 1 before 6th level): You have 2 thralls levels 17 and 16 every 17th lvl thrall gets two sub-thralls levels 16 and 15 every 16th lvl thrall gets two sub-thralls levels 15 and 14 every 15th lvl thrall gets two sub-thralls levels 14 and 13 every 14th lvl thrall gets one sub-thrall level 13 every 13th lvl thrall gets one sub-thrall level 12 ... every 6th lvl thrall gets one sub-thrall level 5 the total is: 1 Big Guy lvl 20 (the Ruler Of Them All) 1 lvl 17 2 lvl 16 3 lvl 15 5 lvl 14 8 lvl 13 8 lvl 12 8 lvl 11 8 lvl 10 ... 8 lvl 5 but that is assuming the lower level thrallherds have no Cha penalties. Now, assuming they all have Cha 10, you get, as far as believers are concerned: 27 lvl 6 40 lvl 5 75 lvl 4 130 lvl 3 164 lvl 2 2723 lvl 1 ON TOP, consider that level 6 believers can as well become thrallherds, thus giving you 27 other sub-thralls guys, but that's pretty the max you can get. AND THAT is only considering the non-epic characters... consider that the leadership concept is much limited compared with what you get at epic levels... It's been some time I wanted to do a worksheet to calculate how many people you have at your feets with epic levels... (that is, assuming your DM have you get the Epic Leadership feat and work with Thrallherds); I think I'm going to make one just now :cool: Hmmm im shure you get 2 lvl 17 thralls at level 20.. 1 has a maximum level "Your ECL -1" and the other got "Your ECL -2" So thats 19 and 18... but 17 is max... so 17 and 17... Or i might be wrong.. :weep:
gbnogkfs 09-03-04, 11:23 AM	Hmmm im shure you get 2 lvl 17 thralls at level 20.. 1 has a maximum level "Your ECL -1" and the other got "Your ECL -2" So thats 19 and 18... but 17 is max... so 17 and 17... Or i might be wrong.. :weep: oooooops :D sorry... that makes: Master Of The Universe: 1 lvl 20 Thralls and thralls of thralls: 2 lvl 17 2 lvl 16 4 lvl 15 6 lvl 14 10 lvl 13 10 lvl 12 ... 10 lvl 5 Believers, believers of thralls and believers of thralls of thralls: 34 lvl 6 50 lvl 5 94 lvl 4 163 lvl 3 331 lvl 2 3415 lvl 1 thralls of believers: 34 lvl 5 grand total of 4226 guys pre-epic (slightly augmentable for high cha followers)
Kyle_the_DM 09-03-04, 02:26 PM	Believers can only be warriors, experts, and commoners though right? The 6th level believers could have the leadership feat which would give them each a 4th level cohort. If I were going to make an army like this I would make the 7th level thralls 3rd level psion/ 3rd level defender of sardior/ 1st level psionic dragon comrades. They would have enough leadership to have a cohort plus they would have a dragon, which in my opinion out weigh a bunch of low level believers. Anyway, that's still pretty good. I think I might use that idea in my campaign, for highly psionic kingdom or something. Cool. -Kyle
Kyle_the_DM 09-03-04, 04:10 PM	Now that I think of it, this would be a good thing to use with the "mind war" series that came out a while back for the mind's eye. All of them could be blues. Or the top psion could be an illithid and all of the lower psions half-illithid. Then the believers would be unknowing slaves. Wow... the boards make me think. I'm gonna start planning my next full campaign... -Kyle
gbnogkfs 09-03-04, 04:14 PM	Believers can only be warriors, experts, and commoners though right? uhhh, wrong :D what's true is that the DM gets to choose the characteristics of the thralls and believers
Kyle_the_DM 09-03-04, 04:39 PM	uhhh, wrong :D what's true is that the DM gets to choose the characteristics of the thralls and believers I must still be in 3.0.... In that case... :devil: ... "I call DM! I call DM!" Thanks. -Kyle
gbnogkfs 09-03-04, 05:45 PM	I must still be in 3.0.... In that case... :devil: ... "I call DM! I call DM!" yes, that was a 3.0 rule no longer present in the revised books (yeah, let the powerful creatures come to me :bow: )
Lo77o 09-04-04, 04:04 AM	Believers can only be warriors, experts, and commoners though right? The 6th level believers could have the leadership feat which would give them each a 4th level cohort. If I were going to make an army like this I would make the 7th level thralls 3rd level psion/ 3rd level defender of sardior/ 1st level psionic dragon comrades. They would have enough leadership to have a cohort plus they would have a dragon, which in my opinion out weigh a bunch of low level believers. Anyway, that's still pretty good. I think I might use that idea in my campaign, for highly psionic kingdom or something. Cool. -Kyle No leadership feat.... only thralls and belivers.... The thing is if you loose any of your thralls/belivers... you get new ones in 24 hours... and you dont get lover leadership score becourse of to many deaths.. Ohhh and every one should be Elans... that way no one needs to eat in my army... and all my thralls got enough Power Points to suck up a nice deal of damage with power points... Ohhh and i dident know the restriction to followers class is removed in 3.5 Wohhooooo thats all most 3500 low level psions in my army... That would be a nice metaconcert.. +3500 to save DC on my powers... and 35000 Power Points to manifest from... hehe
gbnogkfs 09-04-04, 04:22 PM	Wohhooooo thats all most 3500 low level psions in my army... That would be a nice metaconcert.. +3500 to save DC on my powers... and 35000 Power Points to manifest from... hehe you would find some nice surprises reading the description of Metaconcert, like the "Target: You and up to nine other willing psionic creatures"-thing :cool:
Lo77o 09-04-04, 07:16 PM	Ohhh man, way to spoil my fun...
Kyle_the_DM 09-06-04, 10:38 AM	No leadership feat.... only thralls and belivers.... The thing is if you loose any of your thralls/belivers... you get new ones in 24 hours... and you dont get lover leadership score becourse of to many deaths.. I was refering to the believers and thralls having leadership not the thrallherd. Sorry if that confused you.
olothfaern 09-06-04, 11:26 AM	you would find some nice surprises reading the description of Metaconcert, like the "Target: You and up to nine other willing psionic creatures"-thing :cool: Isn't a metaconcert a psionic entity? Which means up to nine metaconcert entities could manifest another metaconcert, and so on, right?
gbnogkfs 09-06-04, 02:33 PM	That's a goooooooooooood point. :cool: First, I gently ask you to please have a look at my thread about Metaconcert in the Psionics board ("Metaconcert Clarifications"), and please say what you think about it. Than, back to your trick... it is maybe technically available, but we have to remember Metaconcert has a manifestation time of 1 minute and a duration of 1 minute/level (augmentable 1PP/minute)... ... so, in two minutes' time we can metaconcert 10^2 people toghether ... in three minutes 10^3 and at the end of the fourth minute we can connect all the people of the chain (they are less than 10,000)... all this requires that Metaconcert is manifested by one character every tenth (about 423 in my exemple of all 10 Cha people), and since Metaconcert is a 5th level power we need at least 423 10th level character (Thrallherds don't incease manifester level at 1st level)... but we only have 55 of them (that is the maximum pre-epic, no matter what charisma score you and the thralls have). The maximum we can connect is then 550 people (in 3 minutes' time). Since a Metaconcert manifested by a 10th level character (the wickest links of the chain) has a duration of 9 minutes (manifester level 9), that leaves 7 minutes worth of manifesting time. The total number of Metaconcerts manifested are 55+6+1=62, for a total of 629=558 PPs. The whole party, supposing all the characters are psions with Int equal to the minimum score to manifest the power levels they have access to, and considering even the ones not involved in the SuperMetaconcert (they can swap between a SuperMetaconcert and the other) has something like 25,112 PPs, you are consuming 2,2% of your psionic potential to connect all these crazy people :D One more thing: can you participate in more than one Metaconcert at a time? If so, you can connect more people spending more time; you can actually connect 4510 people if each 10-or-more-th level guy manifests 9 Metaconcert spending 9 minutes and consuming 99=81 PPs. Since to connect them all we need two more minutes, bringing the total manifesting time after the beginning of the effects of the first Metaconcerts to 10 minutes, each initial Metaconcert has to stay in effect by at least 11 minutes, requiring the expenditure of some extra points by 10th and 11th level thralls; let's say about 82 PPs each. Let's add the other 7 Metaconcert to connect the various orchestras out there and the total cost is about [b]4,500 PPs[b] (ouch!), that is 17-18% of your psionic potential... probably not worth it compared to the 550-people version above. I know, that's a lot of numbers... but it's just fun :D :D Kyle_the_DM: there's really no ppoint in giving thralls and believers the Leadership feat instead of becoming thrallherds.