Build advice? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Build advice? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bez
07-21-05, 05:55 AM Hi, one of my mates is about to start running a Dark Sun game, using 3.5 and the rules off athas.org

I'm planning on playing an Elf Bard, and was wondering if anyone could help me put together a truly killer build. I do this, since I'm not that great at this optimisation malarkey, so bow to the mighty CO wisdom before me.

I'm pretty much aiming for a steriotypical Athasian Elf/Bard, so sneakiness, dodgy under-the-counter dealing, and assassination are the main areas I'm interested in. :D

Athasian Elves:
Elf Traits
• +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution. Elves are agile, but less resilient than humans.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses of penalties due to their size.
• Elven base land speed is 40 feet.
• Low-light vision: Elves can see twice as far as a human in moonlight and similar conditions of poor illumination, retaining the ability to distinguish color and detail.
• Proficient with all bows.
• Weapon Familiarity: Elven Longblade. All elves treat the elven longblade as a martial weapon.
• +2 racial bonus to Listen, Perform, Search and Spot checks. Elves have keen senses.
• Elves have a natural resistance to extreme temperatures and aren’t adversely affected by the heat of the day or the chill of the night. They treat extreme heat or cold as if it were only very hot or cold, (see DMG for rules on temperature effects) but suffer normally from abysmal heat, or from magical supernatural heat and cold.
• Elf Run: After a minute of warm-up and a Concentration check (DC 10), elves can induce an elf run state. This state allows elves to hustle for long distances as easily as a human can move normally, and run for long distances as easily as a human can hustle. Each day that elves continues the elf run, they must make additional Concentration skill checks to maintain their elf run state: A trivial check (DC 10) on the second day, an easy check (DC 15) on the third day, an average check (DC 20) on the fourth day, a difficult check (DC 30) on the fifth day, and an heroic check (DC 40) on the sixth day. Once the elf fails a Concentration skill check, he loses elf run benefits and suffers normal penalties for extended hustling and running as described
in chapter 9 of the Player’s Handbook. After a full day’s rest, the elf may attempt again to induce an elf run state. With a group of elves, runners add their leader’s Charisma bonus both to their movement rate and to any Fortitude checks related to movement.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Gith, Jozhal, Pterran, Scrab, Slig, Tari and Thri-Kreen.
• Favored Class: Rogue.

Athasian Bards:
Level BAB Fort/Ref/Will Special
1 +0 +2 / +2 / +2 Bardic music, Bardic knowledge, Smuggler +1
2 +1 +3 / +3 / +3 Poison Use, Streetsmart
3 +2 +3 / +3 / +3 Quick Draw, Smuggler +2
4 +3 +4 / +4 / +4 Trade secret
5 +3 +4 / +4 / +4 Mental resistance, Smuggler +3
6 +4 +5 / +5 / +5 Quick Thinking
7 +5 +5 / +5 / +5 Chance 1/day, Smuggler +4
8 +6/+1 +6 / +6 / +6 Trade Secret
9 +6/+1 +6 / +6 / +6 Speed reactions, Smuggler +5
10 +7/+2 +7 / +7 / +7 Slippery mind
11 +8/+3 +7 / +7 / +7 Smuggler +6
12 +9/+4 +8 / +8 / +8 Trade Secret
13 +9/+4 +8 / +8 / +8 Smuggler +7
14 +10/+5 +9 / +9 / +9 Chance 2/day
15 +11/+6/+1 +9 / +9 / +9 Defensive roll, Smuggler +8
16 +12/+7/+2 +10 /+10 /+10 Trade secret
17 +12/+7/+2 +10 /+10 /+10 Smuggler +9
18 +13/+8/+3 +11 /+11 /+11 Mindblank
19 +14/+9/+4 +11 /+11 /+11 Smuggler +10
20 +15/+10/+5 +12 /+12 /+12 Trade secret

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d6

Class Skills
True to her reputation of being a dabbler in everything but a master of nothing in particular, the Athasian bard has an extraordinary array of class skills to choose from.
The bard’s class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually)(Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand(Dex), Speak Language (None), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha, Exclusive), Use Psionic Device (Cha), Use Rope (Dex).

Skill points at first level: (6 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill points at each level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the bard.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bard is proficient in all simple weapons, and the following additional weapons: blowgun, bard’s friend, crossbow (any), garrote, whip and widow’s knife. A bard is proficient in light armor, but not shields
Bardic Music: As PHB bard benefit.
Bardic Knowledge: As PHB bard benefit.
Smuggler: At 1st level and every odd level thereafter, the bard receives a +1 insight bonus to Bluff and Slight of Hand checks.
Poison Use: Bards are trained in the use of poisons, and as of 2nd level, never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.
Streetsmart: When a bard reaches 2nd level, he gains a +2 competence bonus to Gather Information and Intimidate checks.
Quickdraw: Bards learn to strike quickly and without warning. At 3rd level, he gains the benefit of the quickdraw feat.
Trade Secrets: At every 4th level the bard learns a trade secret chosen from the list below.
Poison dealer: Pay ½ of the ordinary price for raw materials needed to craft poisons.
Scorpion’s touch: Add +1 to the save DC of all poisons applied by you. This trade secret may be chosen more than once, and its effects stack.
Skilled: Add half your bard level (rounded down) as a competence bonus to one of the following skills: Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive or Sleight of Hand. This trade secret may be chosen more than once, each time it applies to a different skill.
Smokestick application: You can combine inhaled poisons with smokesticks. All creatures within the area the smokestick covers (10 ft cube) are affected by the poison you applied to the smokestick. The effectiveness of the smokestick poison depends on the amount of poison applied to the smokestick. If one dose is applied, the save DC is reduced by 4. If two doses are applied, the save DC is reduced by 2. If three doses are applied, the save DC is unaffected. No more than three doses can be applied to one smokestick.
Versatile: Select any two non-class skills. These are now considered bard class skills.
Coolheaded: You may take 10 on Bluff and Diplomacy checks.
Poisonbane: +4 insight bonus to Craft(Alchemy) checks when creating antitoxin and poison antidotes.
Accurate: When you attack an armored opponent, your accuracy allows you to ignore 1 point of natural armor bonus to AC or 1 point of armor bonus to AC. This trade secret may be chosen more than once, and its effects stack.
Agile: You receive a +1 dodge bonus to AC. This trade secret may be chosen more than once, and its effects stack.
Poison resistance: +4 bonus to saving throws against poisons.
Mental Resistance: Bards carry many dark secrets they would prefer remain secret. This, combined with a large amount of knowledge based on half-truths and false rumors makes a bard’s mind unreliable to those who would seek to mentally affect it. At 5th level a bard receives a +2 morale bonus to saves made against telepathic powers and enchantment/charm spells.
Quick Thinking: Bards often find themselves in a tight spot where they have to act quickly, whether it is to escape a templar patrol or strike first when in confrontation with a foe. At 6th level bards gain +2 bonus to initiative. This bonus stacks with Improved Initiative and any other sources that increase initiative.
Chance: Bards live on the edge in many ways. At 7th level a bard may reroll one single d20 roll once per day, but has to keep the latter result—for better or for worse. At 14th level the bard may use this ability two times per day.
Speed Reactions: When a bard of 9th level or higher uses the attack action or full attack action in melee, he may subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to her initiative. This number may not exceed the bard’s base attack bonus. The bard may not make ranged attacks this round. The initiative increase takes effect on the next round. The new initiative is the bard’s initiative for the remainder of the combat, unless he were to use Speed reactions again, which would increase her initiative further.
Slippery Mind: At 10th level, the bard receives the Slippery Mind ability, as the rogue special ability in the Player’s Handbook.
Defensive Roll: A bard of 15th or higher level learns how to avoid a potentially lethal blow. He gains the ability to reduce damage from a knockout blow, as described in the rouge Defensive Roll ability.
Mind Blank: At 18th level the bard’s mind becomes completely sealed against involuntary intrusion as per the spell mindblank. This spell-like ability is always considered active.

Don't know about attributes yet, but the last game he ran was a 28-point buy.

For those that don't know, Athas is a desert world, with a high proportion of psionics. Metal is very scarce (10x cost).

Anyone keen enough to want to look at the full rules, it's Dark Sun 3 on the releases page of athas.org and there's also a few other bits on there (the Shadow Prestige class is tempting).

Many thanks,
Bez
Khazra Reborn
07-21-05, 07:58 AM May i ask, why shadow? i would have thought trade abilities go better with this class...

Thanks for that resource! Some great Prcs in there (soulknife doesn't suck!)
monkeycaster
07-21-05, 10:33 AM He's doing a 28 point buy?!?!?!?! In Athas?!?!?!?!

Man, in 2nd Ed, the rule was 5d4*7 (probably equivalent of a 40-50 point buy) for stats and start at level 3! Did they make the game easy enough to play standard characters in 3.5?
Bez
07-21-05, 12:56 PM I did think about the Dune Trader class too.
Not completely decided what to focus on, hence asking advice.

I don't know if it's going to be a 28 point buy, that was what he did for a standard D&D campaign. The Dark Sun rules for 3.5 do say not to give extra points any more, but we might be on more like the standard 32 points.

We are starting out at 1st level though (he did this when he ran DS in 2nd Ed, several dead PCs resulted).
monkeycaster
07-21-05, 02:00 PM Hmm. I checked out the book. There reasoning for the stat lowering seams sound to me.
murkaf
07-21-05, 02:02 PM He's doing a 28 point buy?!?!?!?! In Athas?!?!?!?!

Man, in 2nd Ed, the rule was 5d4*7 (probably equivalent of a 40-50 point buy) for stats and start at level 3! Did they make the game easy enough to play standard characters in 3.5?

From the FAQ in athas.org (http://www.athas.org/faq/)

Q: How are ability scores generated? Can I roll 4d4+4 per AD&D 2nd edition DS or do I have to use one of the methods in the 3.0/3.5 Player’s Handbook or Dungeon Master Guide?

A: I would recommend using one of the predetermined methods in the Player’s Handbook or the point-buy system in the Dungeon Master Guide, though ability score generation seems to be a somewhat lenient area in the rules whereas balanced is concerned given the variety of ability score generation methods and their range of average scores. Some GMs assign PCs high ability scores and attempt to counterbalance the higher than normal ability scores with less treasure per level than the recommended gear value figures in the DMG. In fact, such an attempt usually only results in too powerful characters at lower levels and inferior characters at higher levels due to the increased importance of gear throughout level advancement.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bez 07-21-05, 05:55 AM	Hi, one of my mates is about to start running a Dark Sun game, using 3.5 and the rules off athas.org I'm planning on playing an Elf Bard, and was wondering if anyone could help me put together a truly killer build. I do this, since I'm not that great at this optimisation malarkey, so bow to the mighty CO wisdom before me. I'm pretty much aiming for a steriotypical Athasian Elf/Bard, so sneakiness, dodgy under-the-counter dealing, and assassination are the main areas I'm interested in. :D Athasian Elves: Elf Traits • +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution. Elves are agile, but less resilient than humans. • Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses of penalties due to their size. • Elven base land speed is 40 feet. • Low-light vision: Elves can see twice as far as a human in moonlight and similar conditions of poor illumination, retaining the ability to distinguish color and detail. • Proficient with all bows. • Weapon Familiarity: Elven Longblade. All elves treat the elven longblade as a martial weapon. • +2 racial bonus to Listen, Perform, Search and Spot checks. Elves have keen senses. • Elves have a natural resistance to extreme temperatures and aren’t adversely affected by the heat of the day or the chill of the night. They treat extreme heat or cold as if it were only very hot or cold, (see DMG for rules on temperature effects) but suffer normally from abysmal heat, or from magical supernatural heat and cold. • Elf Run: After a minute of warm-up and a Concentration check (DC 10), elves can induce an elf run state. This state allows elves to hustle for long distances as easily as a human can move normally, and run for long distances as easily as a human can hustle. Each day that elves continues the elf run, they must make additional Concentration skill checks to maintain their elf run state: A trivial check (DC 10) on the second day, an easy check (DC 15) on the third day, an average check (DC 20) on the fourth day, a difficult check (DC 30) on the fifth day, and an heroic check (DC 40) on the sixth day. Once the elf fails a Concentration skill check, he loses elf run benefits and suffers normal penalties for extended hustling and running as described in chapter 9 of the Player’s Handbook. After a full day’s rest, the elf may attempt again to induce an elf run state. With a group of elves, runners add their leader’s Charisma bonus both to their movement rate and to any Fortitude checks related to movement. • Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Gith, Jozhal, Pterran, Scrab, Slig, Tari and Thri-Kreen. • Favored Class: Rogue. Athasian Bards: Level BAB Fort/Ref/Will Special 1 +0 +2 / +2 / +2 Bardic music, Bardic knowledge, Smuggler +1 2 +1 +3 / +3 / +3 Poison Use, Streetsmart 3 +2 +3 / +3 / +3 Quick Draw, Smuggler +2 4 +3 +4 / +4 / +4 Trade secret 5 +3 +4 / +4 / +4 Mental resistance, Smuggler +3 6 +4 +5 / +5 / +5 Quick Thinking 7 +5 +5 / +5 / +5 Chance 1/day, Smuggler +4 8 +6/+1 +6 / +6 / +6 Trade Secret 9 +6/+1 +6 / +6 / +6 Speed reactions, Smuggler +5 10 +7/+2 +7 / +7 / +7 Slippery mind 11 +8/+3 +7 / +7 / +7 Smuggler +6 12 +9/+4 +8 / +8 / +8 Trade Secret 13 +9/+4 +8 / +8 / +8 Smuggler +7 14 +10/+5 +9 / +9 / +9 Chance 2/day 15 +11/+6/+1 +9 / +9 / +9 Defensive roll, Smuggler +8 16 +12/+7/+2 +10 /+10 /+10 Trade secret 17 +12/+7/+2 +10 /+10 /+10 Smuggler +9 18 +13/+8/+3 +11 /+11 /+11 Mindblank 19 +14/+9/+4 +11 /+11 /+11 Smuggler +10 20 +15/+10/+5 +12 /+12 /+12 Trade secret Alignment: Any Hit Die: d6 Class Skills True to her reputation of being a dabbler in everything but a master of nothing in particular, the Athasian bard has an extraordinary array of class skills to choose from. The bard’s class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually)(Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand(Dex), Speak Language (None), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha, Exclusive), Use Psionic Device (Cha), Use Rope (Dex). Skill points at first level: (6 + Int modifier) x4. Skill points at each level: 6 + Int modifier. Class Features All of the following are class features of the bard. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bard is proficient in all simple weapons, and the following additional weapons: blowgun, bard’s friend, crossbow (any), garrote, whip and widow’s knife. A bard is proficient in light armor, but not shields Bardic Music: As PHB bard benefit. Bardic Knowledge: As PHB bard benefit. Smuggler: At 1st level and every odd level thereafter, the bard receives a +1 insight bonus to Bluff and Slight of Hand checks. Poison Use: Bards are trained in the use of poisons, and as of 2nd level, never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade. Streetsmart: When a bard reaches 2nd level, he gains a +2 competence bonus to Gather Information and Intimidate checks. Quickdraw: Bards learn to strike quickly and without warning. At 3rd level, he gains the benefit of the quickdraw feat. Trade Secrets: At every 4th level the bard learns a trade secret chosen from the list below. Poison dealer: Pay ½ of the ordinary price for raw materials needed to craft poisons. Scorpion’s touch: Add +1 to the save DC of all poisons applied by you. This trade secret may be chosen more than once, and its effects stack. Skilled: Add half your bard level (rounded down) as a competence bonus to one of the following skills: Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive or Sleight of Hand. This trade secret may be chosen more than once, each time it applies to a different skill. Smokestick application: You can combine inhaled poisons with smokesticks. All creatures within the area the smokestick covers (10 ft cube) are affected by the poison you applied to the smokestick. The effectiveness of the smokestick poison depends on the amount of poison applied to the smokestick. If one dose is applied, the save DC is reduced by 4. If two doses are applied, the save DC is reduced by 2. If three doses are applied, the save DC is unaffected. No more than three doses can be applied to one smokestick. Versatile: Select any two non-class skills. These are now considered bard class skills. Coolheaded: You may take 10 on Bluff and Diplomacy checks. Poisonbane: +4 insight bonus to Craft(Alchemy) checks when creating antitoxin and poison antidotes. Accurate: When you attack an armored opponent, your accuracy allows you to ignore 1 point of natural armor bonus to AC or 1 point of armor bonus to AC. This trade secret may be chosen more than once, and its effects stack. Agile: You receive a +1 dodge bonus to AC. This trade secret may be chosen more than once, and its effects stack. Poison resistance: +4 bonus to saving throws against poisons. Mental Resistance: Bards carry many dark secrets they would prefer remain secret. This, combined with a large amount of knowledge based on half-truths and false rumors makes a bard’s mind unreliable to those who would seek to mentally affect it. At 5th level a bard receives a +2 morale bonus to saves made against telepathic powers and enchantment/charm spells. Quick Thinking: Bards often find themselves in a tight spot where they have to act quickly, whether it is to escape a templar patrol or strike first when in confrontation with a foe. At 6th level bards gain +2 bonus to initiative. This bonus stacks with Improved Initiative and any other sources that increase initiative. Chance: Bards live on the edge in many ways. At 7th level a bard may reroll one single d20 roll once per day, but has to keep the latter result—for better or for worse. At 14th level the bard may use this ability two times per day. Speed Reactions: When a bard of 9th level or higher uses the attack action or full attack action in melee, he may subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to her initiative. This number may not exceed the bard’s base attack bonus. The bard may not make ranged attacks this round. The initiative increase takes effect on the next round. The new initiative is the bard’s initiative for the remainder of the combat, unless he were to use Speed reactions again, which would increase her initiative further. Slippery Mind: At 10th level, the bard receives the Slippery Mind ability, as the rogue special ability in the Player’s Handbook. Defensive Roll: A bard of 15th or higher level learns how to avoid a potentially lethal blow. He gains the ability to reduce damage from a knockout blow, as described in the rouge Defensive Roll ability. Mind Blank: At 18th level the bard’s mind becomes completely sealed against involuntary intrusion as per the spell mindblank. This spell-like ability is always considered active. Don't know about attributes yet, but the last game he ran was a 28-point buy. For those that don't know, Athas is a desert world, with a high proportion of psionics. Metal is very scarce (10x cost). Anyone keen enough to want to look at the full rules, it's Dark Sun 3 on the releases page of athas.org and there's also a few other bits on there (the Shadow Prestige class is tempting). Many thanks, Bez
Khazra Reborn 07-21-05, 07:58 AM	May i ask, why shadow? i would have thought trade abilities go better with this class... Thanks for that resource! Some great Prcs in there (soulknife doesn't suck!)
monkeycaster 07-21-05, 10:33 AM	He's doing a 28 point buy?!?!?!?! In Athas?!?!?!?! Man, in 2nd Ed, the rule was 5d4*7 (probably equivalent of a 40-50 point buy) for stats and start at level 3! Did they make the game easy enough to play standard characters in 3.5?
Bez 07-21-05, 12:56 PM	I did think about the Dune Trader class too. Not completely decided what to focus on, hence asking advice. I don't know if it's going to be a 28 point buy, that was what he did for a standard D&D campaign. The Dark Sun rules for 3.5 do say not to give extra points any more, but we might be on more like the standard 32 points. We are starting out at 1st level though (he did this when he ran DS in 2nd Ed, several dead PCs resulted).
monkeycaster 07-21-05, 02:00 PM	Hmm. I checked out the book. There reasoning for the stat lowering seams sound to me.
murkaf 07-21-05, 02:02 PM	He's doing a 28 point buy?!?!?!?! In Athas?!?!?!?! Man, in 2nd Ed, the rule was 5d4*7 (probably equivalent of a 40-50 point buy) for stats and start at level 3! Did they make the game easy enough to play standard characters in 3.5? From the FAQ in athas.org (http://www.athas.org/faq/) Q: How are ability scores generated? Can I roll 4d4+4 per AD&D 2nd edition DS or do I have to use one of the methods in the 3.0/3.5 Player’s Handbook or Dungeon Master Guide? A: I would recommend using one of the predetermined methods in the Player’s Handbook or the point-buy system in the Dungeon Master Guide, though ability score generation seems to be a somewhat lenient area in the rules whereas balanced is concerned given the variety of ability score generation methods and their range of average scores. Some GMs assign PCs high ability scores and attempt to counterbalance the higher than normal ability scores with less treasure per level than the recommended gear value figures in the DMG. In fact, such an attempt usually only results in too powerful characters at lower levels and inferior characters at higher levels due to the increased importance of gear throughout level advancement.