Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caelic 04-28-06, 10:02 PM	Here's a build I was toying with for the Gish contest--a Gish who specializes in hunting and killing evil spellcasters. Human Str: 12 Dex: 10 Con: 16 Int: 12 Wis: 12 Cha: 16 1. Bard 1: Able Learner, Extend Spell 2. Paladin 1 3. Paladin 2: Persistent Spell 4. Paladin 3 5. Paladin 4 (Turn Undead) 6. Chameleon 1: Divine Metamagic (Persistent) 7. Chameleon 2 (Floating Feat) 8. Chameleon 3 9. Chameleon 4: Mage Slayer 10. Chameleon 5 11. Chameleon 6 12. Chameleon 7: Power Attack 13: Chameleon 8 (Rapid Refocus) 14. Chameleon 9 (Mimic Class Feature 3/day) 15. Witch Slayer 1 (Smite Spirit Shaper), Divine Might 16. Witch Slayer 2 (Mettle) 17. Witch Slayer 3 (Locate Possession) 18. Witch Slayer 4 (Slippery Mind), Practiced Spellcaster 19. Witch Slayer 5 (Momentary Disjunction) 20. Chameleon 10 BAB: +16 Fort: +10 Ref: +7 Will: +10 The character works on several levels: 1. Numerous abilities are based on Charisma. At level 20, while buffed, the character sports a 42 Charisma (Base 16+5 level+5 inherent+6 aptitude focus+4 sacred+6 enhancement.) This could, in theory, be nudged up as high as 46 by shaving points from other stats and swapping Persistent Sirine's Grace for Persistent Nixie's Grace, but I like the +Cha to AC. 2. Persistent Spells: The character has 19 turn attempts without nightsticks and without dipping into his Chameleon class feat uses. With one nightstick or the use of two of his Chameleon abilities, he can Persist three spells per day--typically Sirine's Grace, Righteous Aura, and Bite of the Werebear. 3. Mage-Killing: The character is well equipped for mage killing. He generally uses his floating feat to select Pierce Magical Protections (the advantage to doing it this way being that he doesn't always have to eat the -4 caster level.) Every five rounds, he can force an opponent to make a DC 36 Will Save or be shut down magically (as if in an AMF) for a round. His basic strategy is to shut down the enemy with Momentary Disjunction, get into melee range, and use Pierce Magical Protection to dispel all of the enemy's defensive spells. Once he's in melee range, the spellcaster doesn't have much of a chance, since he can't cast defensively. What do you think, sirs? (Edit: Shuffled levels slightly to gain Momentary Disjunction a level earlier. In order to drop it any further, I'll have to significantly postpone gaining sixth level spells; I'm not sure that's a good trade-off.)
Tweedledope 04-28-06, 10:14 PM	Forgive my ignorance but, what exactly is the purpose of the Chameleon? Don't get me wrong, I love the class, but, I don't see how it is an effective "mage-slayer" class. Perhaps also look at the Occult Slayer...it's pretty nice. Oh, and your race HAS to be Karsite if you're using LA Buyoff...they're awesome! (From the ToM)
PhoenixInferno 04-28-06, 10:19 PM	It seems he uses Chameleon to get the nice floating +6 to any stat and the free floating feat. Where'd you get +4 Sacred bonus to your CHA?
Caelic 04-28-06, 10:21 PM	Forgive my ignorance but, what exactly is the purpose of the Chameleon? Don't get me wrong, I love the class, but, I don't see how it is an effective "mage-slayer" class. The Chameleon's in there for several reasons: 1. To allow me to turn "Pierce Magical Protection" on and off via the floating feat. 2. To give me some much-needed buff spells; this build IS supposed to be a Gish. The Chameleon levels net me key spells: Righteous Aura (for a +4 sacred bonus to Charisma, which is important; see below) and Sirine's Grace (for the nifty +16 Deflection bonus to AC!) 3. To give me the extremely important extra +6 to Charisma; I need that Momentary Disjunction save as high as I can possibly get it, given that I'm going to be forcing spellcasters to make Will saves. Even 36 isn't as high as I'd like it to be. Perhaps also look at the Occult Slayer...it's pretty nice. I considered Occult Slayer, and might use it in a non-Gish, more straight fighter mage slayer build...but I don't think Momentary Disjunction would be bearly as effective in such a build.
Caelic 04-28-06, 10:24 PM	Where'd you get +4 Sacred bonus to your CHA? Persistent Righteous Aura. Of course, the drawback is that I glow like a small star and explode in a holy conflagration if I ever die...but, hey, I'm a Paladin! Those are PLUSSES! :) Come to think of it, I really don't need to Persist that--it's an hour per level. Extend will do just fine. That means I could Persist another spell. Hmm.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-29-06, 12:15 AM	My you've certainly been producing some good builds recently. You should start linking these in a compendium or something so that they don't get lost. Pierce magical protection is simply amazing. I never gave that feat proper consideration before, until you brought it to my attention. Should work nicely with a psi-gish build, eh? :smirk: Momentary disjunction seems like a very critical ability. Why postpone it until 20th level, where it will never see the light of day? I'd cut your chameleon levels and try to fit that class in ASAP, then you can finish out chameleon. Of course chameleon is really nice to have as well...
Caelic 04-29-06, 12:20 AM	The problem, TG, is that there's a little bit of a Catch-22 regarding Momentary Disjunction. It's a Will save, it's being used against spellcasters who excel at Will saves, and therefore, the save has to be as obscenely high as I can make it, or the ability will be next to useless. I'd like to get it earlier in the build, but postponing even one level of Chameleon cuts my ability focus bonus; many more than one and my Charisma takes a serious hit. I'm just not sure how to shuffle the levels to strike the best balance.
Subedei 04-29-06, 12:36 AM	I doubt he'd get along too well with my Dark Magister... Though I'm glad I finally found a use for that 30+ will save.
fnord 04-29-06, 12:38 AM	Nicely done. Come to think of it, I really don't need to Persist that--it's an hour per level. Extend will do just fine. That means I could Persist another spell. Hmm. You yourself mentioned Persistant Nixie's Grace earlier, which would net you +2 AC, +2 to saves, and +2 Momentary Disjunction DC. It won't work for the contest, but Persistant Ruin Delver's Fortune (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20041022a), off the Divine Bard's spell list, would be great, though you'd need to burn a Aptitude Focus use. I need that Momentary Disjunction save as high as I can possibly get it, given that I'm going to be forcing spellcasters to make Will saves. Even 36 isn't as high as I'd like it to be. If you move Witch Slayer up two levels (delaying the last two levels of Chameleon), you could maybe take Ability Focus: Momentary Disjunction. Not sure what feat to drop, though.
Caelic 04-29-06, 12:40 AM	Oh, I don't know...I think he'd be thrilled to meet you. After all, you're precisely the sort of person he's dedicated his life to meeting (and killing, but what can you do? :) ) Characters with Will saves that high are precisely why I need to jack the DC as high as possible. The highest I can get it right now is 40, but that takes some doing.
Subedei 04-29-06, 12:43 AM	Definitely the kind of character that benefits from burning his resources quickly. He'll likely have one mark a at a time that he'll track down over the course of days or weeks at which point he'll want to ambush and finish off the target as quickly as possible. How about Shock and Awe from the Spell Comdendium? It's a 1st level spell that when cast during the suprise round imposes a -10 penalty on your opponents initiative checks.
Caelic 04-29-06, 12:50 AM	That's definitely a thought. His initiative is a serious weak point in the build right now; he REALLY wants to go first, and a +4 initiative modifier just isn't likely to cut it. You're right, though--he's a hunter, and he's mainly geared towards tracking and eliminating a single mark at a time. As I note in his entry, he *can* fight mobs, but he doesn't really like to, because it takes a long time even if the enemies aren't individually able to do much to him. Against a character like your Magister, everything would rely on getting to melee distance. Once I'm there, I'm pretty sure I can win; if you see me coming and unload before I get there, I'm pretty sure you'll win.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-29-06, 01:00 AM	Here's a thought Caelic, from a complete psionic perspective: What's the way mages kill people, typically? If Death effects and mind-affecting effects fail (very easy to be immune to both), then they bust out the ol' fireball. So Grab a skin of power damping (10,800 gp) and gain the ability to damp powers 3/day as an immediate action. (Damp power MINIMIZES any variable effects of any power/spell/Psi-like ability/spell-like ability) That should take the edge off of mages like the dark magister.
Subedei 04-29-06, 01:04 AM	That's...really cool, much better than elemental immunity from a cinematic perspective.
fnord 04-29-06, 01:05 AM	That's definitely a thought. His initiative is a serious weak point in the build right now; he REALLY wants to go first, and a +4 initiative modifier just isn't likely to cut it. I assume your trying to avoid 3.0 stuff, which would get you Eager weapons. A Burning Weapon gives +2 to initiative, but needs to be held at the start of combat. That plus gloves of dex +6 gives +5. If you know combat's coming, Kauper's Skittish Nerves is a no brainer. Of course, casters can get many of these things, too.
tsuyoshikentsu 04-29-06, 02:35 AM	As long as you never, EVER take Leadership and have your cohort named Shadwell -- and your followers named Smith, Smith, Smith, Smythe, Floor, Carpet, and Tinned Milk, et al. -- you get approval from me.
PhoenixInferno 04-29-06, 02:37 AM	As long as you never, EVER take Leadership and have your cohort named Shadwell -- and your followers named Smith, Smith, Smith, Smythe, Floor, Carpet, and Tinned Milk, et al. -- you get approval from me.? :confused:
tsuyoshikentsu 04-29-06, 03:03 AM	? :confused:It's a Good Omens thing.
ZeroEffect 04-29-06, 03:46 AM	I like this.
Deschain of Gilead 04-29-06, 03:56 AM	Small comment on what I think is a great build: Mage Slayer, like Pierce Magical Protection, hits you with a -4 caster level. Do you just eat that? I guess it's not too big a deal b/c of Chameleon's caster level mechanics, but still...
Subedei 04-29-06, 04:22 AM	? :confused:
Khazra Reborn 04-29-06, 05:22 AM	Come to think of it, I really don't need to Persist that--it's an hour per level. Extend will do just fine. You dont need to even extend, 20 hours/day not long enough for you eh? How are you persisting bite of the werebear? Isnt that a level 9 or 8 spell depending what class you get it from? I think you need to go to one of the lower forms. You need to swap the positions of PA and divine might in your build as PA is a pre-requisite for divine might. Whats your wisdom like for the dispel DCS on your persistant divine buffs? Lastly, how about cleric1 instead of bard 1? With the trickery domain for skills and the spell domain your a mighty spellcaster. Why? greater anyspell will let you cast any 5th level or lower arcane spell as a divine spell, meaning you could persist say polymorph or truestrike as one of your other choices.
kaiza 04-29-06, 07:16 AM	I like the idea very much (I once tried to mix the Witch Hunter and the Witch Slayer from OA without success...), and yet it seems to me that the build becomes effective only at higher levels... am I wrong? k.
Deschain of Gilead 04-29-06, 07:42 AM	? :confused: The Mage Slayer feat from Complete Arcane also reduces your caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities by 4. Am I missing something? A big point of the build is that it avoids the caster level suck from Pierce Magical Protection, but it still ends up with *some* from Mage Slayer. Or, is there some way to avoid that as well?
Caelic 04-29-06, 11:27 AM	Wow. Lotsa stuff to respond to. Let's see... Small comment on what I think is a great build: Mage Slayer, like Pierce Magical Protection, hits you with a -4 caster level. Do you just eat that? I guess it's not too big a deal b/c of Chameleon's caster level mechanics, but still... Yep--hence the presence of Practiced Spellcaster towards the end of the build. That's to offset the Mage Slayer level bite. The theory is that I cast my buffs prior to "turning on" Pierce Magical Protection for the day. You dont need to even extend, 20 hours/day not long enough for you eh? How are you persisting bite of the werebear? Isnt that a level 9 or 8 spell depending what class you get it from? I think you need to go to one of the lower forms. Sixth, actually, as a divine spell--just within my reach. The Bite spells really are a bit overpowered for their level. You need to swap the positions of PA and divine might in your build as PA is a pre-requisite for divine might. Very true; I forgot about that while shuffling feats around. Whats your wisdom like for the dispel DCS on your persistant divine buffs? Err...I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. Dispel's a caster level check. Lastly, how about cleric1 instead of bard 1? With the trickery domain for skills and the spell domain your a mighty spellcaster. Why? greater anyspell will let you cast any 5th level or lower arcane spell as a divine spell, meaning you could persist say polymorph or truestrike as one of your other choices. Again, I'm a bit confused. First, Cleric 1 won't give me access to Greater Anyspell, even if I have the Spell domain. Cleric domains only apply to cleric spellcasting. The only way to add domains to non-cleric classes is through certain prestige classes. It might be nice for the domain powers, though--I'll consider it. Second, Polymorph isn't a valid target for Persist (thought Draconic Polymorph is.) Third, there's not much point to Persisting a True Strike, since it discharges after the first strike. I like the idea very much (I once tried to mix the Witch Hunter and the Witch Slayer from OA without success...), and yet it seems to me that the build becomes effective only at higher levels... am I wrong? Yes and no. You're right in that, as it stands now, the build only acquires its signature strike at level 20--the momentary disjunction/pierce magical protection combination. I might take TG's advice and shuffle levels to gain that a little earlier. The build is quite effective without that, though. From levels 1-6, you're as effective as most fighter-types; once you get to level 7 or 8, you start Persisting buffs on yourself. By the time you hit level 9, you're well established as a magekiller, with both Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Protection available.
Seldinor_Stormcloak 05-23-06, 03:59 PM	I noticed you changed your build to clr1/pal2/ftr2/cham1-9/witch slayer5/cham10 and wondered why you went with the cleric instead of bard. And also, why did you take combat expertise and if you went epic, would you go into occult slayer Thanks. P.S. the background for that character is awesome. Your gish will definitely get my vote. :D
Caelic 05-23-06, 04:55 PM	Swapping Bard 1/Paladin 4 for Cleric 1/Paladin 2/Fighter 2 was a trade-off. I lost a chunk of skill points by not taking the first level in bard, but I really wasn't doing anything else with the bard level. Cleric 1 with the Trickery domain gives me access to the skills I need for Chameleon, and also gives me Turn Undead--meaning I no longer need Paladin 4 for that same ability. Two levels of fighter, of course, gives me two more feats. I chose Power Attack and Combat Expertise as these two feats because I can build on them with my floating feat and the Heroics spell--it's not so much that I needed Combat Expertise, it's that now I can take any feat that has Combat Expertise as a prerequisite.