Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rotru 01-08-07, 12:42 PM	I am starting a campaign soon and I need advice on where to go with my character. I will list the stats and specifics in order of how central they are to my character concept. Stats (rolled, not bought): Str-16, Dex-15, Con-19 (dwarf), Wis-13, Int-12, Cha-6 Start at Level 3 Definite: Dwarf Ranger, moving toward Deepwarden Solid: Titan Fighting (Races of Stone) Dwarven Waraxe and Shield (possibly buckler to allow Two-Weapon Fighting) Two levels of Fighter for two extra feats Steadfast Determination (PHBII) Favored Enemy (Giants) Iffy: Shielded Axe (Races of Stone) with Two-Weapon Fighting Spring Attack/Bounding Assault/Rapid Assault chain Shield Specialization and Shield Ward -OR- Battle Hardened (Races of Stone) and Improved Initiative Knowing the DM as I do, this campaign will focus on combat and exploration, with low-ish magic item availability and very little city-based adventure. I should also mention that Forgotten Realms, Eberron, etc. specific material is out, but all the Complete material, as well as the PHBII is fair game. EDIT: Psionics are also not available for this campaign. I welcome all criticism and suggestions.
PhaedrusXY 01-08-07, 12:49 PM	What about psionics? You might check the Dwarven Answerer link in my sig.
rotru 01-08-07, 12:52 PM	What about psionics? You might check the Dwarven Answerer link in my sig. I knew I'd forget something! Also no psionics. They rub the DM the wrong way.
NineInchNall 01-08-07, 01:14 PM	Since Deepwarden doesn't advance animal companion stats or spellcasting, there's really no reason to take more than three levels of Ranger. I'd suggest taking three levels of Ranger and filling in the rest (before Deepwarden) with Fighter (the Dwarf's favored class - no reason not to use it.) Also, since anything past level 2 in Deepwarden is kind of a waste, what are you thinking of doing after that? So far: Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Deepwarden 2/Something-or-other X, right?
rotru 01-08-07, 01:30 PM	Since Deepwarden doesn't advance animal companion stats or spellcasting, there's really no reason to take more than three levels of Ranger. I'd suggest taking three levels of Ranger and filling in the rest (before Deepwarden) with Fighter (the Dwarf's favored class - no reason not to use it.) Also, since anything past level 2 in Deepwarden is kind of a waste, what are you thinking of doing after that? So far: Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Deepwarden 2/Something-or-other X, right? Well, I might go so far as Deepwarden 4, for Uncanny Dodge, but I definitely see where you are coming from. I'd like to go for Tempest or Dervish, I guess, but my Dex is too low for most of the Two-Weapon feats, and I plan to spend all of my stat-ups on Con. I suppose a level or two of Barbarian couldn't go wrong.
NineInchNall 01-08-07, 01:34 PM	Weeelllllll, if you're not going to invest in the entire TWF tree, then it's probably not wise to go into either of those two PrCs, as both of them are highly TWF oriented. Maybe something else. What sort of role are you looking to fill? Damage dealing, tanking, battlefield control, or what?
rotru 01-08-07, 01:44 PM	Weeelllllll, if you're not going to invest in the entire TWF tree, then it's probably not wise to go into either of those two PrCs, as both of them are highly TWF oriented. Maybe something else. What sort of role are you looking to fill? Damage dealing, tanking, battlefield control, or what? I suppose battlefield control, with some tanking as well. Our party has a ranged-focused ranger, a rogue, a wizard, a cleric, and a barbarian. I like the flavor of ranger, and the skills are nice, so if I could continue along those lines it might be cool.
PhaedrusXY 01-08-07, 01:57 PM	Eh, if you just go to Ranger 6 (eventually) for ITWF, it isn't that bad. You get to dump dex and still get the feats, and GTWF isn't that hot anyway, seeing how the attack bonus for that 3rd attack is so low. GTWF isn't a prereq for Tempest or Dervish, is it?
SKRP 01-08-07, 02:06 PM	Well, I might go so far as Deepwarden 4, for Uncanny Dodge, but I definitely see where you are coming from. I'd like to go for Tempest or Dervish, I guess, but my Dex is too low for most of the Two-Weapon feats, and I plan to spend all of my stat-ups on Con. I suppose a level or two of Barbarian couldn't go wrong. What about six levels of non-casting ranger variant from CW with alternative class feature from PHBII? You can dump dex and wis. In addition you doesn't pester self with weak animal companion.
neilthrun 01-08-07, 02:13 PM	Dervish works fine with twohanded weapons. Use a falchion. Horizion walker might not be a horrible choice either.
pfooti 01-08-07, 03:14 PM	Some basic thoughts about Deepwarden. I like deepwarden past 2, unless you're really hardcore CO-ing. d12 hit die, good bab, two good saves and 6 hit dice is decent. I also don't like Ranger as a prefix to Deepwarden, unless you're in a hurry. Many parts of the ranger are duplicated by DW (track feat, skills), the only reason I would go that way would be to get skill points into there. But with 12 int, you should be able to do a non ranger, 7-level prefix with something like Barbarian 2 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 3. An additional 2d6 sneak attack is nice, when you get your friend the rogue to flank with you, Raging is even better, and the Deepwarden-2 ability offsets the rage AC penalty nicely. Fighter2 for bonus feats. You have to do it in 7 levels, because Heal is cross-class for many classes. That's just my opinion, though, and the only real reason I have it on my mind is I had just planned out a Goliath Barbarian2 / Stoneblessed3 / Fighter2 / Deepwarden X for a campaign I was looking at.
HoshiAdam 01-08-07, 03:54 PM	All my suggestions involve using Dwarf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#dwarfParagon) from Unearthed Arcana. If it isn't allowed, oh well. Also, if possible, rearrange Dex, Int, and Wis - they should be 13, 15, and 12 for all these suggestions. For the 5 level entry: Ranger 1/ Fighter1 /Dwarf Paragon3. This gets you into the class with skill points to spare. Rearrange (if possible), Dex, Int, and Wis - they should be 13, 15, and 12. Downside to doing it this way is the lack of feats. 6 level entry: Ranger3 /Dwarf Paragon3. Solid skills and useful abilities, plus you can pick up those fighter feats later on if you want. Paragon 3 before entering the class, as the +2 Con will be nice. A seven level entry: Dwarf Paragon3 /Fighter 4. Gets an extra fighter feat (and qualifies you for Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing if you go focus/specialization). Good if you aren't having to play the tracking role early on.
schulerta 01-08-07, 03:59 PM	What are the Deepwarden Prereqs?
Caelic 01-08-07, 04:02 PM	Unlimited Sending also isn't half bad. The problem with Deepwarden is that the second level ability is so juicy that the rest of the class looks worse in comparison.
pfooti 01-08-07, 04:07 PM	What are the Deepwarden Prereqs? BAB +5, Endurance, and 5 ranks in Heal, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Climb, Jump, Survival.
FriendlyFrog 01-08-07, 04:17 PM	Unlimited Sending also isn't half bad. The problem with Deepwarden is that the second level ability is so juicy that the rest of the class looks worse in comparison. The class abilities might not be that hot, but full BAB, d12 HD, good Fort and Will saves, and 6 + Int skill points with a good class skill list is still pretty good in my book.
Caelic 01-08-07, 04:18 PM	My point exactly, Friendly. I think people overlook how solid the class is because its most spectacular ability comes so early.
rotru 01-08-07, 04:26 PM	The class abilities might not be that hot, but full BAB, d12 HD, good Fort and Will saves, and 6 + Int skill points with a good class skill list is still pretty good in my book. This is exactly why I started looking at it, plus I like the flavor. I'm not sure if Paragon levels are available to me. I think that they are. I really want to play up the dwarf in this character, so that would be a cool way to go. I also think I might be able to switch my stats around as was suggested. Assuming that I keep my starting Ranger 3, take the Paragon levels, and naturally Fighter at some point, what direction do you suggest from there? Feats and PrC wise, I'm not sure where to go. Also, I like the idea of the Spring Attack tree, but I'm not sure how useful it would be, especially with a 20' move. Any thoughts on Stonelord? I dismissed it as fairly weak, was I right? I have been spoiled by the skill points of Ranger, so if nothing else, I will probably go into Horizon Walker. Thanks for all the replies!
HoshiAdam 01-08-07, 05:02 PM	Do you know if you'll be fighting a lot of giants? If so, Power Attack and Favored Enemy Power Attack might be good. Since you'll be getting Endurance at 3, probably should pick up Steadfast Determination then. It'll help with your starting will save, especially when you hit level 4 and have a 20 con. Spring Attack, while decent, is a bit tough on feat requirements for a character that doesn't have a lot of extra damage to single attacks. Horizon Walker isn't a bad PrC, compared to some. A one level dip to get 150' darkvision (when combined with the paragon bonus) is nice - you'll be an excellent spotter at night or underground. If you want to stick with it, 8 levels can be good also, to get dimension door and the two resistances.
dirkformica 01-08-07, 05:07 PM	This is somewhat tangential, but potentially on-topic, what are people's opinions of the Wildshape variant Ranger from Unearthed Arcana combined with Master of Many Forms from Complete Adventurer and Deepwarden from Races of Stone? Two level dips in both MMoF and DW can get some powerful Trollish forms with very high Con scores to fuel AC. They also often have high Natural Armor bonuses like the Cave Troll and War Troll (if you go to 3rd level of MMoF) from Monster Manual III. Any thoughts?
valfen 01-08-07, 05:32 PM	I'm completely new here, but I don't see why it shouldn't work. From what I gathered by lurking around the CO board though, everything that even remotely involves MoMF seems to automatically be considered broken... Regarding the Horizon Walker, the fatigue immunity from the desert terrain mastery is quite good too. That being said, taking 2 levels of barbarian can't be a bad move with that kind of character, especially if some of the UA variant are available (Wolf and Dragon Totem comes to mind), since if you plan on advancing Deepwarden a bit you can regain that lost Uncanny dodge ability. Or if you know you'll never come back to ranger, you can try to start with a Rgr1/Bbn2/Ftr2/Deepwarden2 (classic) and work from there. It hurts your will save, though, since you'll have to delay Steadfast determination a bit. I think if you take the Wild shape Ranger variant from UA you can stack fast movement from ranger AND barbarian to get a 40' land speed Dwarf. I'm not sure about this, though. (anyone can enlighten me on this point ? I'm afraid my search-fu is a bit weak) Hope this helps.
Caelic 01-08-07, 05:38 PM	This is somewhat tangential, but potentially on-topic, what are people's opinions of the Wildshape variant Ranger from Unearthed Arcana combined with Master of Many Forms from Complete Adventurer and Deepwarden from Races of Stone? Two level dips in both MMoF and DW can get some powerful Trollish forms with very high Con scores to fuel AC. They also often have high Natural Armor bonuses like the Cave Troll and War Troll (if you go to 3rd level of MMoF) from Monster Manual III. Any thoughts? You'll have to go a bit more than a two-level dip; remember that, while you could access troll forms at MoMF 2, you only have 7 levels of wildshaping classes at that point, and ergo can only access 7 HD forms. Me, I'd go ahead and take MoMF to 7. If you're going to be a War Troll, you might as well be a *War Troll*...have regeneration, DR, and spell resistance to back up that Con-boosted AC. That also opens up the possibility of Shambling Mound-Deepwarden cheese, if you want to go that far...
Novabomb 01-08-07, 06:21 PM	Since you need endurance to qualify for deepstone sentinal dwarven defender wouldn't be much of a stretch. Personnally I would recomend Deepstone sentinal from Tome of Battle.
Mr. Dog 01-08-07, 07:01 PM	Dwarven Defender can be good for deepwarden if you can't think of anything better. I made a deepwarden Dw. Def. build that used strength for thrown weapons and handled itself pretty well. I think it was Ranger 3/Fighter 2 (Dwarven Fighter sub at 1st if you plan to use axes)/Dwarf Paragon 3/Deepwarden 2/Dwarven Defender 10. Get a Glove of Taarnahm the Vigilant (Wondrous Item, Players Guide to Faerūn, p. 123) to get Throwing and Returning on all your weapons for 10k.
Bellinator 01-08-07, 07:14 PM	With Ranger 1, there is reason to consider Ranger 4, Fighter or Barb 1, and then Deepwarden 2. Then, take Stalker of Kharash from Book of Exalted Deeds for 2 levels. That nets you Favored Enemy: Evil. Then go with your 5th level of Ranger, and apply your new level of Favored Enemy to your Favored Enemy: Evil. So: Ranger 4/Fighter 1/DW 2/StoK 2/Ranger +1 Stalker has d8 HP, full BaB, full Ranger spell progression, and 6 SP. I like that build a lot. After that, run Stalker or DW, your choice. Grap Improved Favored Enemy for +3 damage vs. Evil!!!
HoshiAdam 01-09-07, 08:42 AM	If you have Favored Enemy: Evil, then definitely take Power Attack and Favored Enemy Power Attack.