Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Otto the Bugbear 01-31-05, 09:48 PM	Hey all. Just wanted to put up a build I'm fooling with to see what opinions it would generate. I was just trying to make a lightly armored, hard hitting, many attack character, and this is what popped into existence. lesser Tiefling (+0 LA: PGtF) - Fighter 2 / Swashbuckler 3 / Dervish 5 / Shou Disciple 5 / Tempest 5 Str: 16 Dex: 16 (incl. +2 racial) Con: 14 Int: 16 (incl. +2 racial) Wis: 10 Cha: 8 (incl. -2 racial) 1 - Swashbuckler 1 - Weapon Finesse, Dodge 2 - Swashbuckler 2 - 3 - Fighter 1 - Mobility, Improved Unarmed Strike 4 - Fighter 2 - Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike 5 - Swashbuckler 3 - insightful strike 6 - Shou Disciple 1 - IUS (1d6), +1 AC, Weapon Focus: Greatsword 7 - Shou Disciple 2 - IUS (1d8), +2 AC, bonus feat (combat expertise) 8 - Dervish 1 - dervish dance 1/day, movement mastery, slashing blades 9 - Shou Disciple 3 - IUS (1d10), martial flurry (light), Two Weapon Fighting 10 - Dervish 2 - fast movement +5 ft. 11 - Shou Disciple 4 - +3 AC, bonus feat (Power Attack) 12 - Dervish 3 - spring attack, dervish dance 2/day, Improved Two Weapon Fighting 13 - Shou Disciple 5 - IUS (2d6), martial flurry (any) 14 - Dervish 4 - dance of death 15 - Tempest 1 - tempest defense +1, Leap Attack 16 - Dervish 5 - fast movement +10 ft., dervish dance 3/day 17 - Tempest 2 - ambidexterity -3/-1 18 - Tempest 3 - tempest defense +2, two-weapon versatility, Greater Two Weapon Fighting 19 - Tempest 4 - ambidexterity -2/-0 20 - Tempest 5 - tempest defense +3, two weapon spring attack The attack sequence would be something like: Greatsword: +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 Unarmed strike: +18/+13/+8 or Greatsword: +18/+13/+8/+3 Unarmed strike: +18/+18/+13/+8 With both unarmed strikes and greatsword attacks doing the same damage (2d6+str+int (+3 on sword from dervish)), you're not really hurting yourself with either method. Base saves are not bad either; fort +15, ref +10, will +7. Of course, will is a bit low, but what's pretty normal for a tank type. I had occult slayer in there, but the flurry penalties combined with TWF penalties got to be too much. At that point, Tempest almost becomes a must. I also considered putting in Improved Unarmed Strike instead of GTWF, and I may still switch that back. IMO, that last attack is less likely to hit for the damage it does compared to the first attacks. Having said that, pushing IUS from 2d6 to 3d6(?) may be a better tactic instead of hoping that final attack hits. Level up ability adjustments would probably go into strength. For equipment it would be important to boost str, dex, con, and int :mymy:. Things I like about this build: * Number of attacks (8!) great with dervish dance and still great without. * Damage is equal no matter what attack is used * Int and Str to damage * +20 BAB, not seen too often really * Class based AC bonuses for Shou Disciple, Dervish, and Tempest are nice, and should combine with light armor/high dex to help keep this guy alive. * Two decent saves, with other save average * Not restricted to Lawful (using monk to qualify for Shou would be easier, but I dislike that alignment restriction.) I'm not certain about Leap Attack. I know it's not compatible with dervish dance, but OTOH it's nice to have a good, hard hitting charge strike when dervish dance isn't available/needed. That followed up by 8 attacks per round will soften up just about any opponent. Not exactly a game breaking build, but a nice solid tank. Plus I love the image of a whirling attack machine, chopping away with a greatsword with a bunch of kicks/knees/elbows/head butts in the middle of it. So, whatdya think? Cheers Otto :)
HoshiAdam 01-31-05, 11:21 PM	I'm fairly sure that you can only make attacks with slashing weapons during a dervish dance. If you can squeeze in 2(?) levels of Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries, you can make the unarmed strikes into slashing attacks.
Otto the Bugbear 02-01-05, 07:21 AM	Oh yeah, that's right. Well, 5 greatsword attacks with the dance is still pretty mean. I still like it considering dervish dance is only 3/day. I don't imagine I'll be fitting in those levels of IoDM. I did try to get a build done with a scimitar wielding dervish/shou disciple with 4 levels of IoDM, but I wasn't happy with it in the end. It was something like Scout 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / Shou 5 / Dervish 5 / IoDM 4 (not in that order). Cheers Otto :)
carnivore 02-01-05, 07:28 AM	very nice :clap: i love the Shou disciple....IMO, probably one of the best Tank PrC out......good synergy there. :D
Dain 02-01-05, 07:32 AM	You can't apply Insightful Strike on a greatsword It isn't a finessable weapon. And I should think that Unarmed Strike isn't finessable either, but this I'm not too sure about. Anyway, it doesn't matter since you can't use Unarmed Strike in a Dervish Dance in the first place. - Dain Perhaps you could switch the Swashbuckler levels with levels of Ranger? It seems like a good trade to me since you wont benefit from Insightful Strike on most slashing weapons anyway. And with Insightful Strike gone the Swashbuckler levels kinda lose their mening.
carnivore 02-01-05, 07:47 AM	from the SRD: WEAPON FINESSE [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1. Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls. Special: A fighter may select Weapon Finesse as one of his fighter bonus feats. Natural weapons are always considered light weapons. also from the SRD: Light: A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls. Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon. :D
carnivore 02-01-05, 07:49 AM	IIRC, there is a feat that makes your unarmed strikes slashing ....... maybe its a PrC, cant remember which. :D
Dain 02-01-05, 08:10 AM	IIRC, there is a feat that makes your unarmed strikes slashing ....... maybe its a PrC, cant remember which. :D Sounds cheesy. Anyway, there's no doubt that Insightful Strike doesn't work with a Greatsword, and I can't really seem to picture a Dervish going berserk with his slashing... hands? It seems kinda stupid (and cheesy), no offense. :) In other words, I'd still skip the Swashbuckler levels. AND the Shou Disciple levels while we're at it. - Dain
carnivore 02-01-05, 09:01 AM	none taken.......... but the shou disciple is a great class , gives flurry with all martial weapons and a +3 dodge bonus to AC also your unarmed strikes do 2d6. so even with nothing you are armed and have a bonus to AC....... while keeping a full BAB. :D
Sang-Drax 02-01-05, 10:17 AM	Sounds cheesy. I can't really seem to picture a Dervish going berserk with his slashing... hands? It seems kinda stupid (and cheesy), no offense. :) - Dain I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who thinks that way :D Anyway, I still can't see what is this Dervish/Tempest combo all about. The best Tempest ability - the 5th level one that allows you to attack with both weapons while moving - is sort of useless to a Dervish, that may move and full attack anyway. I'd rather use good old scimitars: Scout 4/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish 10/Shou Disciple 3 Flury with your scimitars dealing an additional +1d6 damage to each attack. If you don't really want to care for your Int score, than go Scout 5/Fighter 2 instead.
Otto the Bugbear 02-01-05, 07:39 PM	Hey guys. Looks like you're right about the insightful strike. It's a no-go with the greatsword. However, it isn't limited to scimitar or even slashing weapons. That means that it does apply to the unarmed strikes. The thing you're thinking of that makes unarmed strikes into slashing weapons is the Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries PrC from Draconomicon. IMO, it's just not worth it. As for the "cheesiness": Why do you think it's cheesy for a martial artist to move up to an opponent and pummel away at them, but not cheesy for a swordsman to move up and slash away with a sword? Not trying to change your opinions here or bad mouth them, I'm just curious why such a subtle difference goes from the realm of neat (swords) to cheesy(unarmed strikes). Let's see, why would I go with tempest 5 when that ability is trumped by the dervish dance. I guess it all boils down to getting tempest 4 to negate the TWF penalties, and then just taking that last level. In my imagination, the two weapon spring attack will look rather... odd... with this guy. It's also nice to have a way to deal extra damage without using up on of the limited dervish dances this build gets. Basically what it boils down to is the Shou levels aren't going anywhere. The swashbuckler levels may go away, depending on whether there's something out there I feel would be a better fit. The thing I can't help but think of is the +6 damage to each unarmed strike (int 16 base +6 item). In addition to that, there's nothing prohibiting this guy from carrying a couple scimitars as backup weapons for use in the dervish dance. Of course they wouldn't be enchanted up like the greatsword would be, but with a couple minor enchantments, it would still be nice. I'm not sure that ranger levels would be that great a match. Then again, free TWF is nice and helps with the intense feat requirements, so that may be the best base class to use instead of Swashbuckler. I'll explore that a little more tonight. Plus, I love skill points and a ranger at 1st level certainly trumps a swashbuckler in that regard. Wow, the more I type, the more it becomes a coin flip for swashbuckler v. ranger.:confused: Thanks for the comments guys, keep em coming. Cheers Otto :)
xanadu 02-01-05, 08:31 PM	I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who thinks that way :D Anyway, I still can't see what is this Dervish/Tempest combo all about. The best Tempest ability - the 5th level one that allows you to attack with both weapons while moving - is sort of useless to a Dervish, that may move and full attack anyway. I'd rather use good old scimitars: Scout 4/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish 10/Shou Disciple 3 Flury with your scimitars dealing an additional +1d6 damage to each attack. If you don't really want to care for your Int score, than go Scout 5/Fighter 2 instead. That scout 5th level is tempting for evasion and the extra d6 but no BAB and no saves is awfully irritating for a front-liner.