Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bullet-proof Monk 07-10-05, 03:46 PM	Greets all. I'm beginning a new 3.5 game in roughly 2 weeks. I'm interested in being the parties damage tank, and have been given the following limitations. Your help on a complete build w/stats aside would be most appreciated. I'm looking for a character w/max out-put of melee damage per round. With that said, here are the guide-lines of my characters creation: *6th level. Two levels of which must be dedicated to the fighters class. *Any class from the Players Handbook or "Complete" guides. *Must be human With everything laid out, I look forward to the monster you optimizers will create. Much thanks in advance.
Welcome 07-10-05, 04:03 PM	Build me the ultimate melee character using these guide-lines Sure, would you like an order of fries to go with that ? :rolleyes: Work something out, and then people will help you refine it.
Faroth 07-10-05, 04:08 PM	Hmmmm, quite simple but effective. Fighter6 - Power Attack (1) - Monkey Grip (1) - Weapon Focus: Greatsword (1) - Leap Attack (2) - Cleave (3) - Weapon Specialization (4) - Greater Weapon Focus (6) With a +1 Greatsword and 18 str you hit +11/+5 and damage 3d6+7 [10-23] but charging nd jumping, with power attack... you hit +9/+3 but the damage would be 3d6+25 [28-43] nice damage. Yes, i know, is too simple, but i don't know what exactly he wants. see u
Particle 07-10-05, 04:08 PM	If you just want to do most damage, I suggest Fighter 2/ Barbarian 3/Frenzied berserker 1 Just add Frenzied berserker lvls, for feats, take those prereqs, Iron Will (youll really want it), and later add something like Leap Attack or such. Youll make damage like crazy, even without the most +ber build ever. You'll might want to look here, for a really crazy frenzied Berserker charger. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=5769497
Bullet-proof Monk 07-10-05, 10:36 PM	Sure, would you like an order of fries to go with that ? :rolleyes: No thanks. I'm partial to apple wedges rather than fries myself. Honestly, you contibuted nothing toward the topic of this thread. Save perhaps un-needed attitude and a manner begging for confrontation. One I would readily give you if it suited my wants or needs. Alas though it does not. If you had nothing to offer on my request of a character build, than you shouldnt have posted a response. So thank you for a 0% contribution, and enjoy your time on the board. Faroth & Particle. Thanks for your input. And again, thanks in advance to any/all who have more ideas & advice for this build.
TheChocoboMafia 07-11-05, 12:24 AM	In all honesty, it seems to be etiquette around here to do some of the work yourself. Asking flat out "Can you make me something?" is a lot less well-recieved than doing some of your own research, creating a build (no matter how weak or flawed), and asking for help fleshing it out. A lot of the people here work hard on the combat monsters that they spawn, and to see someone not putting effort into what they enjoy and reaping the benefits regardless is sure to draw some flames.
Caelic 07-11-05, 12:28 AM	BPM, Allow me to second that. I don't really see the purpose of castigating someone who asks for a build...but you will get more and better responses if you post at least the skeleton of a build to begin with. That said, for raw damage, FB is almost surely the route you want to go, with possibly a one level detour into Exotic Weapon Master for Uncanny Blow.
MstrPaige 07-11-05, 12:42 AM	He did post a build. Fighter 2. That qualifies as a skeleton of a build. He also specified melee, vs ranged as the combat preference. And what books to include. Are we going to start putting up guidelines of what constitutes a "build" ?? If I say Fighter, guess what? Thats a build. Just b/c he doesn't say Fighter 2/Swash 5/Barbarian 2....does not mean he didn't post a build. And besides that, having a rule like that, will only get people forcefully posting random builds like the one above, just to make the "quota" and be sure people don't get mad. Look at your name on the boards.... if it doesn't say "Owner" or "Moderator" or "Super-Awesome-O Guy" then you shouldn't be telling people what to do..... wow.... just wow. That asside, there's no way to do MORE damage Melee then with charging. Go fighter 2, Barb 3 then on to Frenzy like that one guy said. Take Leap Attack, and Battle Jump I believe is the other cool feat. Thats what I'd do. Use a two handed weapon. Not an enlarged one with monkey grip. Anything that takes away from you abilty to hit, will punish you on Power Attack bonuses. If instead you only took 2 away from power attack on every hit, instead of using a bigger weapon. You'd be adding 4 damage each hit, and 6 when you reach higher levels in Frenzied. Look at the difference between 2d6 and 2d8. max 12, vs max 16. So on average you'll add 1-4 damage each hit. I like 4, as opposed to 1-4.
McJarvis 07-11-05, 12:49 AM	I think for 6th level "Tank" builds we are more or less skilled enough to just pull these things out of no where. No need to complain. I really like this: Dwarf Fighter 4/Barb 2 Barbarian 1 (Two Weapon Fighting)(PhB) Barbarian 2 Fighter 1/Barbarian 2(Oversized Two Weapon Fighting(CV), Monkey Grip(CW)) Fighter 2/Barbarian 2(Improved Buckler Defense(CW) Fighter 3 Fighter 4(Improved Two Weapon Fighting(PhB), Leadership(DMG)) With leadership grab a mage who can cast Enlarge Person, Rage, and any other spells that would be useful(Invisibility, levitate, etc). Weild 2 Large Dwarven Battleaxes. Large Dwarven Battleaxe should do something like 2d8 dmg, enlarged should do something like 3d8(10 ft reach at this point too). Plus you have 4 attacks. 5 when your mage gets high enough to haste you. And you can wear full plate(or whatever armor is optimal with your dex)+an enchanted buckler to keep your ac really high. Hopefully the buffs your mage gives, as well as buffs from equipment, will keep your to attack high enough that you're hitting opponents. Since this is more or less a level 6 build, you can take him where you want after that. I ended up going into Kensai with this guy eventually when I played him.((DM allowed me to spend double xp to enchant both axes at once, par double weapons)) And lastly: It's all with only two classes. You may find this more to your liking then x/x/x/x/x builds EDIT- CW=Complete Warrior CA=Complete Adventurer PHb=Players Handbook DMG=Dungeon Master Guide
rilem 07-11-05, 12:55 AM	Fighter2 is not a build — not unless you're building a second level character. He also left a lot of stuff out — and "melee damage-type" doesn't give much detail. There are plenty of ways to dish out lots of HP damage. I often suggest ideas to people who don't offer their own builds, but in general, C/O output tracks closely with with original-poster input. That said — sure, Frenzied Berskerer is dynamite if all you care about is HP damage. You'll kill your party, of course ... Read the FB 3.5 Thread, a couple pages in. Now, what's with that comment about "stats aside" is a case in point — are stats undetermined yet? That makes a BIG, BIG difference. I could pitch you some scary CHA-based melee builds, but if I can't count on the stats to back them up, there's little point. I'd stay far away from Frenzied Bersker without a guaranteed good Will save. For basic melee builds, you might be better off visiting the Build FAQ or the Optimization library. There are some wonderful things in both. For straight damage output, there is the F.B. of course, the King of Smack (find in the optimization library), the lancer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5436939), the Thri-Kreen invisible blade dervish, the Trip Monkey of Doom, etc. Without more data, I'd probably suggest a Fighter2/Bbn3/Cleric1(Luck and War) — This gets you fairly good saves, feats and a domain power that will set you up for F.B., should you decide to go that way. Cleric and WF (normally a feat to stay away from) will also get you into many other PrCs.
Xx Spider xX 07-11-05, 01:02 AM	He did post a build. Fighter 2. That qualifies as a skeleton of a build. He also specified melee, vs ranged as the combat preference. And what books to include. Are we going to start putting up guidelines of what constitutes a "build" ?? If I say Fighter, guess what? Thats a build. Just b/c he doesn't say Fighter 2/Swash 5/Barbarian 2....does not mean he didn't post a build. And besides that, having a rule like that, will only get people forcefully posting random builds like the one above, just to make the "quota" and be sure people don't get mad. Look at your name on the boards.... if it doesn't say "Owner" or "Moderator" or "Super-Awesome-O Guy" then you shouldn't be telling people what to do..... wow.... just wow. I agree with this statement. Keep your personal or "click" qualifications to yourself. You have no place to make requirements or demands for creating threads or posting on these boards. Additionally you dont have any place or authority to criticize another board members threads or topic as long as they meet the requirements set forth by WoTc and its representatives. Policing of threads, subjects and content is the place of WiZo's and reps, not an individual board member or group "click" of members. I dont think the fact that events like this occurred, and that this board has been warned about similar behavior is a coincidence. We are all here to enjoy a game. So lets use what talents we have to help one another enjoy it.
McJarvis 07-11-05, 01:16 AM	I think the best guide line is "if you don't have something helpful to say, don't say it". Either direct posters to forums that would help them more then CO or give them a few options for general builds(ie- Ask if he'd rather have a TWF'r or Single weapon guy). I _think_ this board should be for people who really don't know what all thier options are as well as regular dnd players who are seeking optimization.
Bullet-proof Monk 07-11-05, 01:21 AM	I just received an email on the handling of stats from my DM. They are as follows: 27 points, which includes the point gained at 4th level. While I am new to the 3-3.5e system I am not new to D&d/Ad&d. I will begin playing with a group of seasoned 3.5e players, and seek to fill my role as group tank to the best of the my ability(while I learn the system through play & experience)...as can be done with the numbers, rules and options at my disposal. Again, thanks to all who have contributed & continue to contribute for your help.
McJarvis 07-11-05, 01:34 AM	I just received an email on the handling of stats from my DM. They are as follows: 27 points, which includes the point gained at 4th level. While I am new to the 3-3.5e system I am not new to D&d/Ad&d. For my Dwarven Dual-Wielding build: 27 points including the point at 4th level? I'll just assume that's 26 points with the point at 4th level...the point at 4th level really isn't meant for buying at the begining. I'd do his array like this: 12 Str(4 pts) 17 Dex(10pts)(16+1(4th level)) 14 Con(4pts)(12+2racial) 10 Int(2pts) 10 Wis(2pts) 10 Cha(4pts)(12-2racial) The mage he attracts with leadership doesn't matter too much, so long as she can cast enlarge person, rage, and whatever other buffs you want spell-wise. I'm afraid the TWF Dwarven Battleaxe guy won't be as powerful as the Frenzied Berserker. If you truly want raw power go with the berserker: It will kill things. And they will go splat.
Bullet-proof Monk 07-11-05, 01:40 AM	Unfortunately, for some reason. The group has been limited to human characters only. I am unsure as to the reason, but expect that the information will be revealed later on during game-play. We are playing within a custom setting, rather than a pre-existing supported world. I have also been given 600 gold to purchase equipment from the Players Handbook and Dm's guide. This 600 gold must be used as if I had no equipment prior to it being given to me.
Andreas0815 07-11-05, 01:59 AM	Fighter 2/Rogue 4
McJarvis 07-11-05, 02:04 AM	Unfortunately, for some reason. The group has been limited to human characters only. I am unsure as to the reason, but expect that the information will be revealed later on during game-play. We are playing within a custom setting, rather than a pre-existing supported world. I have also been given 600 gold to purchase equipment from the Players Handbook and Dm's guide. This 600 gold must be used as if I had no equipment prior to it being given to me. Strange. Human can be substituted in my build. As your bonus feat take Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Bastard Sword). Then buy two Bastard Swords that are large. that's 70gp. As for the rest of the cash- spend it as you wish I guess. That's _really_ low for lvl 6 chars(6th level character wealth according to the DMG is 13,000), so I'm assuming your dm is gonna be giving you rewards quickly.
Ravashack 07-11-05, 03:45 AM	This probably isn't what you had in mind, but... Fighter 2/Rogue 2/Paladin 2 26+1 point build: 14 Str 13 Dex 12 Con 8 Int 11 Wis 15 (16) Cha +1 Cha at level 4 Rogue 1 Power Attack, Force of Personality (C. Adv) (Use Cha for Will saves instead of Wis) Fighter 1 Goad (C. Adv) (DC 10 + 1/2 char level + Cha mod, fail == you are the only one target can attack with melee) Fighter 2 Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder Paladin 1 Paladin 2 Rogue 2 Devoted Inquisitor (C. Adv) (Free Multiclassing between Rogue and Paladin, when you use Smite evil + Sneak attack at same time & connect, DC 10 + 1/2 char level + Cha mod, fail == target dazed 1 round) Skill points: You need 8 ranks of Sense Motive, 2 ranks of Knowledge(Religion) and 4 ranks of Gather Information. Dump any points you don't know what to do with into UMD. Get the Combat Brute tactical feat (C. War) at level 9. Level up Paladin until you get Turn Undead, then go into Shadowbane Inquisitor (C. Adv). Final result for level 6: BAB+5, Fort +10, Reflex +7, Will +6 If you pump Charisma, you won't need to worry that about Will saves (+2 Cha == +2 will save) I don't like that Fighter 2 requisite though. I would rather switch it for 2 more levels of Paladin to meet the Shadowbane prereqs faster and drop the Improved ... feats.
X-Codes 07-11-05, 04:37 AM	I'm inclined to say "Get a new DM." But instead I'll do this: Fighter 2/Cleric 4 S 13, D 10, C 12, I 9, W 15+1, Ch 15 Level 1: Sacred Vow Level 1 (Human): Vow of Poverty Level 1 (Fighter): Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff) Level 1 (Vow of Poverty): Nymph's Kiss Level 2 (Fighter): Power Attack Level 2 (Vow of Poverty): Sanctify Martial Strike (Quarterstaff) Level 3: Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric) Level 4 (Vow of Poverty): Intuitive Attack Level 6: Divine Might Level 6 (Vow of Poverty): Vow of Purity This should be very self explanitory.
Otto the Bugbear 07-11-05, 07:06 AM	I like the builds that can make a good contribution to the party outside of combat as well. Either through skill points, healing, or arcane spells. Also, just having mega offensive power isn't a good thing. You'll also need to have some defensive capabilities. Monk 2 / Ranger 2 / Fighter 2 Feats (9): 1, 1, 3, 6, f1, f2, m1, m2, r2 Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Leap Attack, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Elusive Target, TWF Some DMs might not agree with this, but use that greatsword and, if necessary, unarmed strikes as your secondary attacks from TWF. If you don't like that idea, or it won't fly past your DM, there are two things you can do. First, switch TWF for point blank shot. It's always a good idea for a melee guy to have some ranged capability as well. Versatility is a better weapon than a very narrow focus. Second, keep the TWF and pick up some special materials weapons (one handed). One silver and one adamantine or cold iron helps out at lower levels. Though you are getting to the point when using the greatsword is better anyway. Strengths of this build: good skill points with a good skill array. Pretty good saves for a melee guy. Good damage output (power attack, leap attack). Good defensive potential (combat expertise and PrCs below). Track is usually a good addition for any party. Abilities: Str, Dex, Con are all important, then wis, int, cha. The future: Thief-Acrobat 3 and Dervish 7 and Ranger +4 OR Thief-Acrobat 4 and Dervish 10. Dervish bonus damage works with any slashing weapon, and T-A allows charging over any terrain - a big boon. Mix these classes together as you need their abilities. Cheers Otto :)
Mommy was an Orc 07-11-05, 09:06 AM	This is one of my favorite builds as well, although a couple of notes: Ranger 1 should be the first level of the build for the extra 8 skill points. You can't get Elusive Target at 6th level without a +6 BAB. I also like this variation on the build: Scout 4/Ranger 1/Fighter 2 who gets Improved Trip and wields a Guisarme(and holds off on Scout 4 until about 10th level to max out whatever your favorite Scout skills are. Plus with Ranger 1, you can use a wand of Cure Light wounds - and you can take Favored Enemy: Human. Which seems very likely to be a common problem... Another option is to consider putting 1-4 levels of Warlock(Complete Arcane) into your build - this gets you access to See the Unseen - Darkvision and See Invisibility, likely both going to be vital with an all human party. But general rule of thumb for making this kind of build: 2 levels of skill monkey 2 levels of feats 2 levels of good saves and end up with a +5 BAB from it. I like the builds that can make a good contribution to the party outside of combat as well. Either through skill points, healing, or arcane spells. Also, just having mega offensive power isn't a good thing. You'll also need to have some defensive capabilities. Monk 2 / Ranger 2 / Fighter 2 Feats (9): 1, 1, 3, 6, f1, f2, m1, m2, r2 Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Leap Attack, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Elusive Target, TWF
Bullet-proof Monk 07-11-05, 09:10 AM	With the input and advice thus far, I have a better idea as to what I would like to see within this character. Strong melee skills( I really would like the ability to fall back on strong unarmed damage if possible. W/o sacrificing too much in the way of melee ability), rapid movement, moderate defense skills(to the degree that its not a blatant weakness), some basic wild-land survival abilities(if possible). A few questions: *Would an attempt at all of these w/the levels available to me be stretching my resources to thin at this point? *It has been suggested(by Otto). What are your opinions on the strengths the Monk class offers to a melee character? *What do you think of the combination : Fighter/Monk/Barbarian ? In the strongest order of course. I'm sure I'll have more questions as this thread continues. As always, much thanks for your advice and ideas. Keep em coming please :)
lostone 07-11-05, 09:54 AM	A couple questions for you: Any idea what your attributes will be? If you have several good stats it may help some with optimization. Granted for a frenzied berserker build it's pretty obvious, but if you don't have the stats to pull it off someone may be able to suggest a better alternative. What is the general alignment of the group? Are you allowed to take any templates? If so I highly recommend Mineral Warrior for all melee builds. 8/adamantine is nothing to sneeze at, it will stop a lot of ranged damage from non-spells. Plus the burrow is useful for crossing a battlefield where enemies can't hit you, sneaking into places, escaping from places, etc.
Mommy was an Orc 07-11-05, 10:41 AM	2 levels of Monk offers a lot - it gives you the following: Three decent, but not great feats(Improved Unarmed Strike+actual damage, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Grapple) Evasion(which still works in light armor) +3 to all saves Decent skill points and access(particularly Tumble) And some things that get lost when wearing armor At the cost of +1 BAB and an average of 2-4 hp. As long as you're not losing any BAB elsewhere, pretty good deal. It has been suggested(by Otto). What are your opinions on the strengths the Monk class offers to a melee character?
Bullet-proof Monk 07-11-05, 10:44 AM	Any idea what your attributes will be?. Not at yet. I'm more than open to suggestions on allocation of my attribute points to best suite various builds. Granted for a frenzied berserker build it's pretty obvious? The only issue I have w/the Frenzied Berserker is the idea of becoming a threat to my group. What is the general alignment of the group?? Unknown at present. We have been given the go-ahead to create our characters individually. As such I am left to assume that we are choosing alignments indepedently during character creation. Are you allowed to take any templates? We are permitted to use anything from the Players Handbook, and "Complete" series of books. Nothing more *sigh*
rilem 07-11-05, 10:57 AM	Do you know what the rest of the party is like? You may have noted that many of the builds suggested so far (apart from the typical Frenzied Berserker nods) sacrifice BAB and damage-dealing potential for flexibility. Some of the best "tank" builds succeed not by dealing straight damage, but by denying and/or controlling movement. That's why you should eschew feats like W. Specialization in favor of Improved Trip and tactical feats such as Combat Brute. Monk does make for a good 2-level dip, but really the unarmed damage is almost a sideline. The best parts are the saves, feats (Imp. Grapple and Combat Reflexes), good skills, the evasion (in light armor) and the decent HD. - In Monk2/Fighter2/Bbn2, You have to take the monk levels first — always take the highest skill-point class first, and you can't lead with Barbarian b/c you'll lose Rage upon taking monk.
lostone 07-11-05, 11:29 AM	The only issue I have w/the Frenzied Berserker is the idea of becoming a threat to my group. We are permitted to use anything from the Players Handbook, and "Complete" series of books. Nothing more *sigh*Just tell the group to play dead, get out of reach via fly/levitate or hide when they see the fight is about done. In my opinion ragers tend to kill the last guy standing and beat their corpse for a while, so if you are not drawing attention you should be safe. If you were able to use Book of Exalted Deeds I would suggest talking to your DM about Righteous Rage. I isn't the RAW but I feel it should work with Frenzy just fine and would allow it in my game that way. But since that is not allowed, no dice.
Caelic 07-11-05, 11:49 AM	He did post a build. Fighter 2. That qualifies as a skeleton of a build. He also specified melee, vs ranged as the combat preference. And what books to include. Are we going to start putting up guidelines of what constitutes a "build" ?? If I say Fighter, guess what? Thats a build. Just b/c he doesn't say Fighter 2/Swash 5/Barbarian 2....does not mean he didn't post a build. And besides that, having a rule like that, will only get people forcefully posting random builds like the one above, just to make the "quota" and be sure people don't get mad. Where in the world did I "tell people what to do?" I gave the guy some advice, and it was true advice. I didn't tell him he couldn't post without a build; I just told him that he'd get more responses if he put one up. Personally, I wish him well with the build either way. If someone's fishing, and I come along and say, "Hey, if you drop your line over here in the shallows, you'll get more bites," that's called "friendly advice." Look at your name on the boards.... if it doesn't say "Owner" or "Moderator" or "Super-Awesome-O Guy" then you shouldn't be telling people what to do..... wow.... just wow. Don't you think that it's just a bit hypocritical that you're sitting here telling us what we should and shouldn't be doing and saying--and then turning around and telling us we shouldn't be doing the same? Geesh.
Caelic 07-11-05, 12:05 PM	At any rate, getting back to the topic at hand: Monk, I do think that for a sixth level build, a certain amount of focus is needed. Your resources are limited enough that you're going to either do a few things very well, or a lot of things poorly. Alignment issues aside, I'm not sure the monk levels will pay off for you in the long run. You say you want to be able to fall back on strong unarmed damage. Two levels of monk produce reasonably strong unarmed damage at 6th level, but how strong will that damage look at 10th level? 15th? 20th? The Wisdom to armor class is nice...if you're unarmored, and if you have a high Wisdom...but useless otherwise. The bonus feats are nice, granted. Is what you get enough to justify taking the class? For me, it wouldn't be--I just couldn't stomach the aesthetics of going from monk to barbarian. That has to be a personal choice, though. Something to consider with Frenzied Berserker: if you don't have any more frenzies, you're not a threat to your party. There's nothing stopping you from going out and frenzying all over some hapless tree first thing in the morning.
Helmed Horror 07-11-05, 12:45 PM	Fighter 1/wolf-totem barabarian 2/Hexblade 2 pious templar 1 1.)WT - Barbarian: Devestating wrath (the one feat in PGtF that gives frightful prescense when you attack.) true believer 2.)Fighter: Combat Reflexes 3.)WT -Barbarian: Improved sunder, Improved trip 4.)Hexblade 5.)Hexblade 6.)pious templar power attack Not sure on stats, str: 14 dex: 16 con: 12 int: 11 wis: 8 cha: 13 (raise to 14 at lvl 8) at 9th level take the one tactical feat in CW that gives sundering cleave. (combat brute??) pick a god that takes a weapon capable of tripping. (im thinking heavy flail..)
Quale 07-11-05, 12:46 PM	This is my first build that I tried putting together here. It's probably been done better and may be full of holes/incomplete, but bear with me as I'm a n00b. Suggestions to improve it would be great as would corrections. 1st Scout 1: Combat Expertise (Int. Req. 13) Dodge (Dex. Req. 13) 2nd Fighter 1: Mobility (Req. Dodge) 3rd Fighter 2: Weapon Focus – Falchion, Karmic Strike (Req. Dex. 13, Comb. Exp., Dodge) 4th Fighter 3: 5th Fighter 4: Power Attack (Str. Req. 13) 6th Scout 2/Fighter 5/Any full BAB 1: Leap Attack (Req. Jump 8 ranks, Pow. Att.) 7th Dervish 1 Make sure you get Perform Dance 3 and Tumble 3 ranks from your Scout Starting skill points. It’s expensive but you can afford it. Keep Dance and Jump maxed and boost it if you can. With a couple well selected buffs, this build should do a LOT of damage, while being nice and playable, good potential and last but not least, kosher. I have done the math at one point but I don’t feel like reconstructing it ATM. My bet is around 40-45+/- average damage pr. attack at level 7. It’s kinda a 7th level build, but it’s not like you’ll be a wuzz before you get to Dervish which is only 1 level away. The idea is to use the Dervish Dance to continuously Leap Attack for all your attacks. Ignore enemies and use Karmic Strike to gain additional attacks on those that opportunity attack you. Go Max Powerattack all the time so make sure you’re strong. Get a Keen Falchion if you can, it’s not an expensive enchantment, for added Crit. Chance. Cleave and Great Cleave is built into the Dervish Class. Sprinkle as you increase with additional snacks. Sincerely, Edit: Forgot to sum up the sources. Scout: Complete Adventurer. Dervish: Complete Warrior. Karmic Strike: CW. Leap Attack: CA. Edit2: That's not a teensy problem! 8) I knew I had forgotten something.. I'll figure it out later. To be cont.
Caelic 07-11-05, 12:49 PM	One teensy problem: Karmic Strike really isn't all that impressive without Combat Reflexes, seeing as you only get one AoO per round.
Quale 07-11-05, 03:40 PM	One teensy problem: Karmic Strike really isn't all that impressive without Combat Reflexes, seeing as you only get one AoO per round. Right you are and I can't believe I didn't remember this when I posted. Despite that I found out when I thought about it that I'd just have to go fighter all the way. It can still be done, with the 13 int which is part of the Reqs you get uhm at least 12 skillpoints at level one which should be sufficient to max dance and tumble and then later max tumble and jump. Shame about the 1d6 I guess.. but 1D6 isn't all THAT anyway.
PhaedrusXY 07-11-05, 04:12 PM	Otto's first build looks pretty good, but I'd swap two levels of barbarian into it instead of the ranger levels if your DM is ok with alignment changes, or doesn't use alignment restrictions for the monk.
Baneslayer 07-11-05, 05:26 PM	Fighter 4/Ranger1/Dragon Slayer 1 Stats: 26+1 Str 17 Dex 13 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 8 F1: Iron Will, Dodge, Monkey Grip F2: WF: Greataxe F3: Power Attack F4: WS: Greataxe R1: (Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy) DS1:Cleave Use a Large Greataxe for 3d6 base damage, wear Full Plate Armor and kick butt. Why Ranger 1? For the BAB, Skills, and Reflex Save boost. Be sure to take the most common enemy type in the campaign for your Favored Enemy. Also, unlike Barb, all the class abilities at this point are not limited by Armor, so you can wear Full Plate. Why Dragon Slayer? Because you get amazing abilities, good Fort and Will saves, and d10 Hit Dice. An even more powerful Dragon Slayer build is Fighter 4/Cleric 2 and take Dragon Slayer next level. Your cleric spells will go up every odd DS level, but we'll have to trade Str to pay for the Wisdom increase. Be sure to pick some excellent Domains if you go this route - Destruction is good, so are many others.
carnivore 07-11-05, 05:46 PM	just using the PHB ,try this: human Druid 6 +4 BAB....3 attacks/round in wildshaped form(5 if charge) 4th lvl spells 6th lvl caster 2 wildshapes/day....6 hour duration each for shape: LEOPARD Medium Animal Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (19 hp) Initiative: +4 Speed: 40 ft (8 squares), climb 20 ft. Armor Class: 15 (+4 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 11 Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+3) Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+3) and 2 claws +1 melee (1d3+1) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d3+1 Abilities: Str 16, Dex 19, Con 15 These jungle cats are about 4 feet long and weigh about 120 pounds. They usually hunt at night. The statistics presented here can describe any feline of similar size, such as jaguars, panthers, and mountain lions. Combat Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a leopard must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake. Pounce (Ex): If a leopard charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks. Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +6 melee, damage 1d3+1. animal companion: try riding Dog, trained for War...stats adjusted for a 6th lvl druid: DOG, RIDING Medium Animal Hit Dice: 6d8+4 (39 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) Armor Class: 21 (+3 Dex, +8 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+6 Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d6+6) Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d6+6) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent Saves: Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +3 Abilities: Str 17, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6 Skills: Jump +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +3, Survival +1* Feats: Alertness, TrackB This category includes working breeds such as collies, huskies, and St. Bernards. Carrying Capacity: A light load for a riding dog is up to 100 pounds; a medium load, 101–200 pounds; and a heavy load, 201–300 pounds. A riding dog can drag 1,500 pounds. Combat If trained for war, these animals can make trip attacks just as wolves do (see the Wolf entry). A riding dog can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check. or try this: human Druid 5/ Beastmaster 1 gives a much stronger animal companion.....but you lose 4th lvl spells :D
carnivore 07-11-05, 05:51 PM	opps forgot to add 2 levels of fighter..... how about this: human Druid 3/ fighter 2/ beastmaster 1 with natural bond feat for a very strong animal companion :D
Bullet-proof Monk 07-11-05, 06:31 PM	Great ideas everybody, but I expected no less from the Optimization board regulars! Question for everyone w/the CW book. What do you think of the Bear Warrior, and can some-one give me some info on the class? I roughly scanned through a copy some time ago, and recall it offering some great abilities(maybe I'm wrong). How long does the Bear Form hold w/each use, and what can one do with and while in Bear form? Opinions and info on the class would be appreciated(I'm waiting for my copy of CW to come in from Amazon). Again, thanks for the great advice, suggestions and sample builds.
Otto the Bugbear 07-11-05, 07:00 PM	MwaO, Good point about the ranger, but I didn't mean that to be the order the classes are taken in. I just usually figure the highest skills point class will be first level. I've got to stop doing that to lessen confusion. And, yes, I did make a mistake about that Elusive Target. I just try to get the feats I like to see in the list, then the PrC requirements, all the while going from memory. Put in Ascetic Hunter or something else instead and move Elusive Target to 9th level. Ascetic Hunter if going back for more ranger levels, something else if not. Thanks for the corrections. :D I do also like that scout build. Anyway... MwaO hit most of the good point to having 2 monk levels in the build. The only one that I'd like to add is: never unarmed. No matter what Deus-ex-machina the DM decides to use, you will always be able to damage stuff (albiet, not great damage) without provoking an AoO. The thing about the monk levels isn't in trying to do many things well. At no point will you be doing monk-ey things well. The monk levels are only in there to provide the things MwaO mentioned. You get no speed from monk; no AC from monk (either Wis or class granted), you get no good abilities except feats. Don't try to be a monk. You're not. You're a greatsword wielding guy that can fight both offensively and defensively, has better than normal saves, better than normal skill points and skill suite. Think of it this way: fighter 3 and 4 for 4 skill points and 1 feat and ~2 hit points more and +1 saves, or monk 1 and 2 for 8 skill points, 3 or more feats (consider you're improved unarmed damage over a fighter taking IUS), +3 all saves. Which is a better option, mechanically? The Ranger 2 / Fighter 2 / Monk 2 prefix is one that I'm really liking for most melee oriented builds. Using the PHB, the monk is a little more limited than the usual Unearthed Arcana variants I like to see, but it's still pretty good. The alternative is Rogue 2, but the saves are starting to suck then. Especially willpower. Due to the OP's 2 required fighter levels, that brings the prefix up to either the 2/2/2 that I used, or Ranger 1 / Fighter 2 / Monk 2. Actually, if the TWF that I mentioned earlier doesn't work, that second prefix may be a better start. This allows earlier entry into Thief-Acrobat and thus Dervish. Ranger 1 / Fighter 2 / Monk 2 ... then ... T-A 4 / Dervish 7 / ??? +5 mixed together as needed. I'd say ranger +5 to keep the BAB up, but that's my personal preference. Stick to full BAB classes, and you'll still be a good melee specialist. Many people will say to continue on to Dervish 10. While thousand cuts is nice, other classes may have more to offer than a nice 1/day ability. I think 7 is a good cut-off for the awesome defensive fighting ability (-4 to hit, +10 AC) A note here: I almost always will want to sandwich the fighter levels between the skilled-class levels. This is to keep skill ranks up to maximum without spending the fighter's meager 2/level on cc skills. With the monk restriction (pre-Ascetic Hunter) and the 2 required fighter levels, that's not possible for this thread. I don't like seeing barbarian levels with monk levels in a build, unless it's been established that the monk class isn't restricted to lawful by a particular DM. I can see plenty of opportunity for a good RP story to accomodate this, but I believe many DMs will not. Oh, for 27 points: Str: 15 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 13 Wis: 10 Cha: 8 and bump Str for all level increases. Cheers Otto :)
Lakom 07-11-05, 09:51 PM	I second the druid idea from carnivore. Good saves, good skills and one stat only dependency, not to mention a spell list that lets you be the go to guy in 90% of the cases. IMO you really need a char that is dependant only on one stat [and for a melee char that means you need poly] since you have only a 27PB...the only other idea I have at the moment to get to poly is through a monk/sorcerer combo, however that will take time before you get powerful. Bear warrior/war shaper route also takes time +7bab req, as does FB with +6 bab req [you can't do fight2/barb3/fb1]and a FB IMO soon becomes a boring 1 dimensional char especially with 27 PB Gruul smash, Grull hungry, Grull sleep!!!!!!!!! PS Yeah I forgot about two levels of fighter. That is the worst two levels you could be forced to take. To make the best of that, maybe go for a charger, or a fighter2/cleric4, with the str and a domain that grants polymorph [I am not sure it is in any Complete book series, hmm now that I think of it I am not sure I ever saw one...if you can't find it take animal for the shapechange later on and buy a staff of poly for you friend the mage]. After you get to divine favor you should be quite good. Figher2/cleric4 PB...27 str 13...05 +1item for 14 dex 10 [full plate]...02 con 13...05 +1item for 14 int 13...05 wis 14...06 +2 item for 16 cha 12...04 1Ewp: spiked chain, Expertise, Improved trip 2. Power attack 3. Extend spell 6. Persistent spell 9. Divine persistent spell
Andarious 07-11-05, 10:47 PM	Fighter 6 1 Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Cleave (you will be able to use it) 2 Dodge 3 Mobility 4 Improved Bull Rush 6 Leap Attack, Shock Trooper Plain simple str based fighter with decent Dex (13+), and Int (13) and that's all she wrote. Use a greatsword! At higher levels a keen falchion may be worth it (high chance of multiplying power attack damage) or a scyth if you're feeling for big numbers with worse probability. Basic tactic is to charge, and power attack with full penalty to AC instead of attack so +18 damage with a two handed weapon and +2 to hit, -8 to AC for the round. Advancing Feat progression should go, I'd also suggest going Fighter 12, Psychic Warrior 8, this WILL require Wis as your secondairy stat though. 8 Combat Brute 9 Elusive Target 10 Combat Expertise 12 Karmic Strike, Improved Trip 13 Improved Unarmed Strike 14 Close Quarters Fighting 15 Hold the Line 17 Speed Of Thought 18 Sidestep Charge 20 Psionic Charge This is assuming your DM allows XPH as Core like many do. Use the powers Psionic Lions Charge, and Precognition (Offensive), also Prescience is nice. Anyway, this is the most playable character I've manage to come up with (at all levels). Don't worry, failing that option just keep all the same feats but change Speed of Thought and Psionic Charge to, Improved Critical in either Falchion or Greatsword, and Improved Grapple would probably be useful situationally. The tactic evolves to using karmic strike, followed by a ton of weapon sunders, trips and follow through attacks. Ability scorse should either be STR 16 (10) DEX 13 (5) CON 10 (2) INT 13 (5) WIS 13(5) CHA 8 (0) For the version that uses Psiwarrior, or switch it to Con 13, Wis 10 for version that doesn't.
Bullet-proof Monk 07-13-05, 01:08 PM	While I like all of the ideas, builds and examples offered thus far. The one I have become most attached to is the druid(for some reason). That being decided, what do you think the strongest build would be in order to accomplish the following?: * Fair spell selection * Most combat effective use of Wild-Shape * Most combat effective animal companion Heres a re-cap of what my Dm is allowing for character creation: * Human only * 26+1 attribute points * 6 levels * Anything from : PHB and the "Complete" books series * 600 starting gold. Which is to be used toward the purcahse of any & all equipment. An additional question if you will: What benefits does the Beastmaster class offer?
Caelic 07-13-05, 03:36 PM	I'd set the character up as follows: STR: 8 DEX: 8 CON: 14 INT: 14 WIS: 16 CHA: 12 This can be tweaked, and some will say that the points in Constitution are a waste; I disagree. There will come times when you are not in Wildshape, and you want to have at least a reasonable number of hit points at those times. Level increases to Wisdom (naturally.) FEATS: 1. SF: Conjuration 1. Augment Summoning 3. Extend Spell 6. Natural Spell Again, these are negotiable: Craft Wondrous Item is always a good investment, for instance...and if you're willing to sink points into Strength, Power Attack leads to Leap Attack later on. Leap Attack coupled with a pouncing Wildshape can do some positively gruesome things.
carnivore 07-13-05, 04:01 PM	i agree with Caelic on most of it, except change the Feat at 6th lvl to Nonverbal spell.....it will allow casting spells in most any form that can make sounds, also it will disguise your spell casting in human form without increasing the level of the spells, and it can be used on all spells with a verbal component. :D
Andarious 07-13-05, 06:42 PM	I'd go Druid 5 myself, followed up with Master of Many Forms. I also like adding Warshaper into the mix for the multimorph ability among everything else. Your DM just needs to agre that it makes sense for Warshaper levels to stack with Druid levels for Wildshape max HD and duration. That being said, level 1 take Endurance and Alertness, 3rd I'd consider Power Attack strongly, at 6th you'd probably find Natural Spell useful but maybe not this build will cap at 3rd level spells. Personally I'd suggest from 6th level on taking Wild feats or Monstrous feats that you can virtually qualify for. While wingover may not be useful in every form you can take on, in many it will be. Other useful examples of virtual monstrous feats are Improved Natural Weapon (Claw or Bite are good choices), and at higher levels any of the Draconic Feats. Arguably you can take the Powerful Wildshape feat as a virtual feat attainable by morphing yourself into a Half Giant followed by becoming anything else and it's quite useful especially once you've got Multimorph. Assuming you're able to build to Druid 5/MomF10/Warshaper5 you can wild shape 11 times/day and will only actually need to use it once or twice per day though if you never revert to your true form (just turn into a Hobgoblin, or Wood Elf or some such generically). Anyway, rambling again, hope my suggestions are useful.
Bullet-proof Monk 07-13-05, 10:53 PM	What book details the Beastmaster class?
Caelic 07-13-05, 11:01 PM	Complete Adventurer. Master of Many Forms is also in there; you might want to take a look. Ultimately, a MoMF is a less powerful character than a straight Druid 20, but a better melee combatant for perhaps the majority of the character's lifespan. Strength, Con, and AC in the 30's, damage resistance, spell resistance, regeneration 9, and the ability to daze a critter with each and every swing at level 12 doesn't suck. :)
Baneslayer 07-14-05, 04:54 AM	i agree with Caelic on most of it, except change the Feat at 6th lvl to Nonverbal spell.....it will allow casting spells in most any form that can make sounds, also it will disguise your spell casting in human form without increasing the level of the spells, and it can be used on all spells with a verbal component. :D You still need Natural Spell to cast while Wildshaped. I can't find Nonverbal anywhere on my lists, what book is it in?
carnivore 07-14-05, 04:12 PM	nonverbal spell is in the Planar Handbook..........you can substitute any sound, including Grunts,whistles,chirps,etc.......if your animal form can make a sound, you can cast a spell with this feat :D
carnivore 07-14-05, 04:19 PM	opps ......forgot about the Somantic requirements :doh: ,oh well...just go with Caelic's feat list. :D
Creeg 07-14-05, 04:29 PM	Monk 2/ scout 2/ fighter 2 (as above but scout instead of ranger)
Baneslayer 07-14-05, 04:32 PM	nonverbal spell is in the Planar Handbook..........you can substitute any sound, including Grunts,whistles,chirps,etc.......if your animal form can make a sound, you can cast a spell with this feat :D You are still being too clever for your own good - it doesn't allow you to substitute somatic gestures if your form doesn't have hands and it doesn't allow you to access your material components if they have been absorbed into your Wildshaped form or if your form is unable to open pouches, etc. Natural Spell does both of these as well as substituting grunts, etc. for the Verbal Components. The only thing Natural Spell doesn't do that Nonverbal Spell does is allow the Verbal components to not sound like a spell is being cast. Edit: Doh, you caught your mistake while I was posting. :D
Simon Ace 07-14-05, 05:02 PM	Greets all. I'm beginning a new 3.5 game in roughly 2 weeks. I'm interested in being the parties damage tank, and have been given the following limitations. Your help on a complete build w/stats aside would be most appreciated. I'm looking for a character w/max out-put of melee damage per round. With that said, here are the guide-lines of my characters creation: *6th level. Two levels of which must be dedicated to the fighters class. *Any class from the Players Handbook or "Complete" guides. *Must be human With everything laid out, I look forward to the monster you optimizers will create. Much thanks in advance. Howdy ! I am of the opinion that simpler is better when it comes to a Tank The one probelm with a real good Death Dealer build is that most of the juicy PRC's aren't available to you until 7th level or more That being said a Tank is still pretty easy to build without a PRC If you can stand Lawful Good I like a Dwarf Paladin 4 Fighter 2 Feats are as follows f1 Power Blow f2 Cleave L3 Great Cleave L6 Improved Toughness This charcter is a little bit off your track but on the good side can both give and take major damage lets say he is a 32 point buy 17 (10) with l4 point s 10 (2) i 12 (4) w 12 (4) d 16 (6) cn 12 (6) ch Your average HP (with max at l1) will be 57.5 /58 Your AC will be 21 without magic and you will have 2 attacks doing 1d10+3 -- very decent A more crunch oriented one might be a Goliath Fighter 4 Barbarian 1 22 (16) s 10 (2) i 10 (2) w 12 (6) d 17 (6) with l4 point cn 8 (0) ch You will be uisng Breast Plate and a Greatsword or if you can get it Mithril Fullplate -- Feats will be l1 Power Blow l3 Improved Bullrush l6 Shock Trooper f1 Cleave f2 weapon Focus (Great Sword) f4 weapon specialization (Great Sword) You just knock your foes down like 9 pins -- Normally you will charge foes and knock them back and down doing 2d6+11 without magic ! Basic human or half orc fighter work fine too