Build suggestions for using 2 pistols? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Build suggestions for using 2 pistols? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Brahzs M'ahnkei
09-08-04, 10:29 AM I am about to enter into an Eberron campaign and am looking to create a private investigator-type PC that uses 2 cap-n-ball pistols as his primary weapons, and a bastard sword for back-up/melee. Any ideas? I have been planning on a ranger build, but the more I look at it the more I think that neither of the combat styles would be all that useful... not useless, mind you, just not exactly right.

Here's the catch- our GM is only allowing PHB, DMG, Eberron Campaign Setting, Complete Warrior & Complete Divine for the campaign (MM notwithstanding for GM use); he'll probably allow UA if the request makes sense/isn't _too_ outlandish.

Any suggestions or ideas for class/level progression would be appreciated, as well as any other general character creation advise (stats, skills, etc.)

;)
eudas
09-08-04, 11:29 AM if you're not using some kind of steampunk setting (which probably would have its own set of feats for pistol use, such as Weapon Proficiency (pistol), Two Guns Blazing, etc) then I would say treat 'em like two hand crossbows and go from there.

eudas
Brahzs M'ahnkei
09-08-04, 11:54 AM They are basically treated as one-handed heavy crossbows. They do 1d10 and take a full round action to reload.

;)
SolitudeSeraph
09-08-04, 12:08 PM That's an awful lot of reload time and TWF penalties..

Anyway...use the Urban Ranger variant if you want to make an investigator type of character..all it does is give you Urban Tracking (instead of tracking), and change some of your spells...so it isn't too outlandish..and it fits more than ranger

Go like Urban Ranger 3/Master Inquisitve 5/x (meh..can't think of anything that's in the books that would fit this..Watch Detective would be good but that's from Masters of the Wild..)
Brahzs M'ahnkei
09-08-04, 02:33 PM That's an awful lot of reload time and TWF penalties..

That is part of my thinking. Ranger Combat Styles help, but not that much...

Thanks for the input so far. I'll check out MOW for the Watch Detective- maybe it'll be good for ideas even if the PrC itself is not allowed.

;)
eudas
09-08-04, 03:02 PM don't forget to take quickdraw!
draw 2, fire 2
drop (or put away) 2, draw 2, fire 2
repeat until you run out of pistols. :)

eudas
catharz
09-08-04, 03:04 PM Well, realistically becoming a 2-pistol gunman isn't viable until you have revolvers. You can't reload two pistols in one round, and you can't reload any pistols without a free hand.

So you really can't be a gunman. On the other hand, shooting each pistol and then dropping them to close to melee range is a viable tactic.

Being a gunner in 3.5 will never be good, but at least you can do OK some of the time.

IMO whoever wrote up the firearm rules completely botched them, from both a game mechanics and a realism standpoint. Firearms are harder to use then crossbows or bows: Exotic vs Simple or martial. They should have been made simple weapons (at least most of them). The current 'weapon group proficiency,' which has no relation to any other core rules is just silly.

Firearms don't do a lot of damage (comparatively). This is fine from a realism standpoint, but could have been one of the few things that made them useful before a charge.

Firearms don't bypass armor. This is my biggest gripe with the 3.0 and 3.5 rules. Firearms were useful because of their penetration. They should use ranged touch attacks, or at the very least have some sort of 'armor penetration rating,' where the ignore up to a certain amount of their enemy's armor and/or natural armor bonus.

That would make things very interesting...

Anyway, good luck with your character. Remember to keep your guns on a cord, so you can drop them and charge without worry.
UMiskatonic
09-08-04, 09:31 PM Well, guns are handled well in d20 Spycraft. Since I have a John Wu gunfighter, here's what I know....

This is a feat intensive build. You will want as many feats as you can get. Perhaps Ranger 2/Ftr 2 to start, and human, I'd say.

With quick draw, TWF, and rapid shot, a 2nd level ranger can get 3 attacks the first round from a dead standstill. That's good. Precise shot and point-blank shot will help those shots hit, as will good dex. Don't waste a feat on weapon focus, you have bigger fish to fry, like rapid reload.

With rapid reloading figured in, you get three attacks in two rounds. I would see if you can get pistols that are one size smaller than normal. Yes, that's -2 for the wrong size, but your TWF penalties become -2/-2, and rapid reload becomes free. Doubling your attack speed is worth the reduction in damage.

Another effective fighting style can be seen in any pre-Civil War movie, like the Last of the Mohicans. Here's the breakdown.

1) Get a horse. That way, the horse's action moves both of you, and you can still full attack. Mounted feats will help you a bit here.

2) Use sword and pistol style. If someone moves by, you get an AO. If they close, stab. If they back away or cast a spell, shoot them.

The trick to this is evaluating your opponents. Somtimes closing with the sword is better, sometimes it is worse. If you can make the right call most of the time, you'll be effective.

FYI Catharz, the historical realism is even worse than you might think. Early pistols were HARD to use, and WAY expensive, they were the weapons of the nobility. They also arrived on the scene two centuries after cannon, and took a while to become effective.
Darkstone
09-08-04, 10:37 PM if your branching out across worlds, that's the home of the gunmage prc... even one level would let you make your pistols harder to sunder
MiscDebris
09-09-04, 01:59 AM You'll have to run this by your DM, but there is a prestige class called the Pistoleer in the Netbook of Classes, vol 2. http://nboclasses.fancc.net/ full bab, good reflex. patches up some of the problems with a pistol wielder, and I don't see it as over powered. Granted, I've not tested it out yet...

MiscDebris
Brahzs M'ahnkei
09-09-04, 03:29 PM You'll have to run this by your DM, but there is a prestige class called the Pistoleer in the Netbook of Classes, vol 2. http://nboclasses.fancc.net/ full bab, good reflex. patches up some of the problems with a pistol wielder, and I don't see it as over powered. Granted, I've not tested it out yet...

MiscDebris

Thanks for pointing me in this direction. It's as close as what I am looking for than anything published (by Wizards or otherwise) that I've found.

Thanks for all the help guys, I really appreciate it. Barring the above info, anyone want to venture a class progression? :D

;)
Aerk
09-10-04, 12:00 AM If you really want to make a two-fisted gunfighter, convince your DM to let you import all of the rules and feats from D20 Modern.

I'm currently running a campaign where 10th level D20 Modern characters got sent through an experimental Gate and dropped into the DnD universe - but you really have to make some things up as you go along. Adamantium bullets, for example. If you look at the web enhancements for D20 modern, there is a prestige class called the Spellslinger, which could be readily adopted into Eberron.

Someone was griping out firearms... first off, firearms should just require the Personal Firearms Proficency feat, which is -quite- different from simple weapons. Knowing how to use a club or spear is a big step from knowing how to use, reload, and maintain a firearm. Such feats and proficenies reflect just that - that you have used the items in question and know how to use and operate them. The skillset for using firearms differes enough from that of simple weapons that it merits its own feat/proficency. In terms of actual force, a crossbow or longbow arrow will punch through armor as easily as a bullet will.

I think the rules for firearms (the d20 modern rules) are quite good when it comes to handling them, and I would urge you to use them if your DM is letting you use a firearm.

Spellslinger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20modern/we/20030529a)
rbingham2000
09-10-04, 06:33 PM Two blackpowder pistols and a bastard sword?

Sounds to me like you'd need Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) and Two-Weapon Fighting, with an optional Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) if you're going to be using that thing with one hand.

If you choose Fighter as your class and Human as your race, all three of these feats can be had at first level.

Also, because each gun carries only one shot and reloading takes a full round to do, you'll be falling back on that sword very often, so your Strength can't be too much lower than your Dexterity.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Brahzs M'ahnkei 09-08-04, 10:29 AM	I am about to enter into an Eberron campaign and am looking to create a private investigator-type PC that uses 2 cap-n-ball pistols as his primary weapons, and a bastard sword for back-up/melee. Any ideas? I have been planning on a ranger build, but the more I look at it the more I think that neither of the combat styles would be all that useful... not useless, mind you, just not exactly right. Here's the catch- our GM is only allowing PHB, DMG, Eberron Campaign Setting, Complete Warrior & Complete Divine for the campaign (MM notwithstanding for GM use); he'll probably allow UA if the request makes sense/isn't _too_ outlandish. Any suggestions or ideas for class/level progression would be appreciated, as well as any other general character creation advise (stats, skills, etc.) ;)
eudas 09-08-04, 11:29 AM	if you're not using some kind of steampunk setting (which probably would have its own set of feats for pistol use, such as Weapon Proficiency (pistol), Two Guns Blazing, etc) then I would say treat 'em like two hand crossbows and go from there. eudas
Brahzs M'ahnkei 09-08-04, 11:54 AM	They are basically treated as one-handed heavy crossbows. They do 1d10 and take a full round action to reload. ;)
SolitudeSeraph 09-08-04, 12:08 PM	That's an awful lot of reload time and TWF penalties.. Anyway...use the Urban Ranger variant if you want to make an investigator type of character..all it does is give you Urban Tracking (instead of tracking), and change some of your spells...so it isn't too outlandish..and it fits more than ranger Go like Urban Ranger 3/Master Inquisitve 5/x (meh..can't think of anything that's in the books that would fit this..Watch Detective would be good but that's from Masters of the Wild..)
Brahzs M'ahnkei 09-08-04, 02:33 PM	That's an awful lot of reload time and TWF penalties.. That is part of my thinking. Ranger Combat Styles help, but not that much... Thanks for the input so far. I'll check out MOW for the Watch Detective- maybe it'll be good for ideas even if the PrC itself is not allowed. ;)
eudas 09-08-04, 03:02 PM	don't forget to take quickdraw! draw 2, fire 2 drop (or put away) 2, draw 2, fire 2 repeat until you run out of pistols. :) eudas
catharz 09-08-04, 03:04 PM	Well, realistically becoming a 2-pistol gunman isn't viable until you have revolvers. You can't reload two pistols in one round, and you can't reload any pistols without a free hand. So you really can't be a gunman. On the other hand, shooting each pistol and then dropping them to close to melee range is a viable tactic. Being a gunner in 3.5 will never be good, but at least you can do OK some of the time. IMO whoever wrote up the firearm rules completely botched them, from both a game mechanics and a realism standpoint. Firearms are harder to use then crossbows or bows: Exotic vs Simple or martial. They should have been made simple weapons (at least most of them). The current 'weapon group proficiency,' which has no relation to any other core rules is just silly. Firearms don't do a lot of damage (comparatively). This is fine from a realism standpoint, but could have been one of the few things that made them useful before a charge. Firearms don't bypass armor. This is my biggest gripe with the 3.0 and 3.5 rules. Firearms were useful because of their penetration. They should use ranged touch attacks, or at the very least have some sort of 'armor penetration rating,' where the ignore up to a certain amount of their enemy's armor and/or natural armor bonus. That would make things very interesting... Anyway, good luck with your character. Remember to keep your guns on a cord, so you can drop them and charge without worry.
UMiskatonic 09-08-04, 09:31 PM	Well, guns are handled well in d20 Spycraft. Since I have a John Wu gunfighter, here's what I know.... This is a feat intensive build. You will want as many feats as you can get. Perhaps Ranger 2/Ftr 2 to start, and human, I'd say. With quick draw, TWF, and rapid shot, a 2nd level ranger can get 3 attacks the first round from a dead standstill. That's good. Precise shot and point-blank shot will help those shots hit, as will good dex. Don't waste a feat on weapon focus, you have bigger fish to fry, like rapid reload. With rapid reloading figured in, you get three attacks in two rounds. I would see if you can get pistols that are one size smaller than normal. Yes, that's -2 for the wrong size, but your TWF penalties become -2/-2, and rapid reload becomes free. Doubling your attack speed is worth the reduction in damage. Another effective fighting style can be seen in any pre-Civil War movie, like the Last of the Mohicans. Here's the breakdown. 1) Get a horse. That way, the horse's action moves both of you, and you can still full attack. Mounted feats will help you a bit here. 2) Use sword and pistol style. If someone moves by, you get an AO. If they close, stab. If they back away or cast a spell, shoot them. The trick to this is evaluating your opponents. Somtimes closing with the sword is better, sometimes it is worse. If you can make the right call most of the time, you'll be effective. FYI Catharz, the historical realism is even worse than you might think. Early pistols were HARD to use, and WAY expensive, they were the weapons of the nobility. They also arrived on the scene two centuries after cannon, and took a while to become effective.
Darkstone 09-08-04, 10:37 PM	if your branching out across worlds, that's the home of the gunmage prc... even one level would let you make your pistols harder to sunder
MiscDebris 09-09-04, 01:59 AM	You'll have to run this by your DM, but there is a prestige class called the Pistoleer in the Netbook of Classes, vol 2. http://nboclasses.fancc.net/ full bab, good reflex. patches up some of the problems with a pistol wielder, and I don't see it as over powered. Granted, I've not tested it out yet... MiscDebris
Brahzs M'ahnkei 09-09-04, 03:29 PM	You'll have to run this by your DM, but there is a prestige class called the Pistoleer in the Netbook of Classes, vol 2. http://nboclasses.fancc.net/ full bab, good reflex. patches up some of the problems with a pistol wielder, and I don't see it as over powered. Granted, I've not tested it out yet... MiscDebris Thanks for pointing me in this direction. It's as close as what I am looking for than anything published (by Wizards or otherwise) that I've found. Thanks for all the help guys, I really appreciate it. Barring the above info, anyone want to venture a class progression? :D ;)
Aerk 09-10-04, 12:00 AM	If you really want to make a two-fisted gunfighter, convince your DM to let you import all of the rules and feats from D20 Modern. I'm currently running a campaign where 10th level D20 Modern characters got sent through an experimental Gate and dropped into the DnD universe - but you really have to make some things up as you go along. Adamantium bullets, for example. If you look at the web enhancements for D20 modern, there is a prestige class called the Spellslinger, which could be readily adopted into Eberron. Someone was griping out firearms... first off, firearms should just require the Personal Firearms Proficency feat, which is -quite- different from simple weapons. Knowing how to use a club or spear is a big step from knowing how to use, reload, and maintain a firearm. Such feats and proficenies reflect just that - that you have used the items in question and know how to use and operate them. The skillset for using firearms differes enough from that of simple weapons that it merits its own feat/proficency. In terms of actual force, a crossbow or longbow arrow will punch through armor as easily as a bullet will. I think the rules for firearms (the d20 modern rules) are quite good when it comes to handling them, and I would urge you to use them if your DM is letting you use a firearm. Spellslinger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20modern/we/20030529a)
rbingham2000 09-10-04, 06:33 PM	Two blackpowder pistols and a bastard sword? Sounds to me like you'd need Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) and Two-Weapon Fighting, with an optional Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) if you're going to be using that thing with one hand. If you choose Fighter as your class and Human as your race, all three of these feats can be had at first level. Also, because each gun carries only one shot and reloading takes a full round to do, you'll be falling back on that sword very often, so your Strength can't be too much lower than your Dexterity.