Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Naramyth 07-11-04, 05:16 PM	I have been reading the "iconic role" threads started by Bishop Drazz and the one that I feel needs further discussion is the role of the tank. So, who can do it? Well, the Fighter and the Barbarian come to mind as solid bases for the iconic tank obviously. But at high levels continued progression in either is folly. With a few exceptions such as Snow's crazy machine gun tripper, the tank is going to have to multiclass, and with that specialize. How about other core classes? How about the Monk? can a mean-liar certified unarmed specialist(tm) keep up if built properly? Or is the monk stuck in its tactical support role? So what does the budding tank do? Does he become the wall that is the Dwarven Defender, or take a risk and become the nigh unstoppable Frenzied Bezerker? Do you go with the weapon limited route of the Hammer of Moridan, Weapon Master, or Kensi? How about the Runescarred Bezerker, or the Deverish? can they pull thier weight in a "iconic four" party? What about all the crazy gish around here? Can a Spellsword/Witch Hunter/Sacred Exorsist/blah blah blah pull this off? How about a Psychic Warrior? What about Savage Species-type characters? Does the true tank spend some of his precious levels to be a Mineral Warrior, or Half Ogre, or become Feral? How about Half Dragons or Lycanthropes? Are templates, creature progressions, and ECLs viable for the tank? Or are they required? Or should me simply turn to the Melee Cleric again? Lots of questions, I'll weigh in my opinion later, but seriously, who is up to be the tank?
catharz 07-11-04, 06:07 PM	A lot of it depends on level. For example, once Polymorphing high-Con forms becomes possible, the Wizard can be as effective a tank as a (non-Polymorphed) Barbarian. Basically every base class has a 'tankable' build. Bards have Warsingers, Monks have tripper/stunners, Rogues and Rangers have High-Con flankers, Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Barbarians, Paladins, and Fighters are all fine 'as is.'
Snow Savant 07-11-04, 06:43 PM	There is no such thing as a definitive Tank role in the current state of 3.5 Iconic Party play. Now that a whole ton of sourcebooks have been printed allowing literally millions of possible "Feat-PrC-&-Weapon-Specialty" permutations to co-exist, the Tank role can now only be defined within the context of a given party's needs. To somewhat echo Catharz' statement, you can build a tank-like character from a whole myriad of core classes and alternate core classes ... and with angles and specializations up the wazoo. But ultimately, one party's tank will not work with another party's tank. From a more simplified "Iconic-4" tank party role ... you could define it loosely as "a specialist in melee combat and front-line survivability". And yeah, even that can be debated as to what that really means. But it does give a more definable visual image as to what the tank's primary purpose should be.
Moridus 07-11-04, 11:45 PM	In my experience from different games, a tank is usually one of 3 things. 1.) A character that has such a small chance to be hit that wading into melee causes negligable damage. 2.) A character with hitpoints so high that they can simply soak up the damage delt to them. 3.) A character who can somehow negate damage, through reduction, evasion, deflection, or some other means. I have seen combinations of these before, as well. Those characters are either common (and the game is dull) or legendary. So what does this mean to a DnD tank? There is a theme to the three different types of tank. All of them are redirecting large amounts of damage that would be delt to the rest of the party to themselves, and surviving it. Note that this does not make them a meat-shield; tanks actually fight! This does not really solve the problem of "who's the tank?" though. Theoretically, any class could achieve one of these three things. A wizard can give themselves more damage reduction and AC than a warrior can, if they spend the spell slots. At the end of the day, though, whichever character can best perform those three duties within the party is probably the best suited to be the party tank. -Fighter classes usually attain extremely high AC and hitpoints, making them effective tanks. Some even manage to get damage reduction - a fighter with all three of these is a fearsome foe indeed. The problem comes from magic... best hope that high hitpoints and good saves (somehow) can make it through. They are the most effective where magic fails. -Rogues can get very high AC with Dexterity bonuses out the wazoo. Just don't let them take a hit - they tend to fold like wet paper cloths when the damage comes around. -Clerics and Druids are scary. They can do all three tank types I listed with disturbing regularity. Unless it is a dedicated healer/caster type, there is a good chance they can outclass all but the best-built fighter. Even more irritating, they don't have many weaknesses as a tank. The worst you can do is hit their low Fort saves, and hope that whatever you do to them sticks. Dispel and antimagic are good, too. -Wizards, Sorcerers, Psions, and the like are usualy lacking in hitpoints, but have the most ways to shrug off damage and gain AC through spells like displacement, invisibility, etc. They also enjoy polymorph. However, one dispel can end their fun, and one hit can send them packing. In all honesty, I prefer fighters to do the tanking. I feel that their damage output is more consistant in melee, and generally higher than other classes (4+ attacks + high AB = crazy damage). Then again, I have seen every class tank. I guess the choice is really based on the situation at hand. Probably rambling pointlessly now, so I'm off.
Thannin 07-11-04, 11:58 PM	answers in line Originally posted by Moridus In my experience from different games, a tank is usually one of 3 things. 1.) A character that has such a small chance to be hit that wading into melee causes negligable damage. 2.) A character with hitpoints so high that they can simply soak up the damage delt to them. *shambling mound druid* 3.) A character who can somehow negate damage, through reduction, evasion, deflection, or some other means. *DR really isnt as effective as many people think, most of the time the damage is way too high to care about DR.* I have seen combinations of these before, as well. Those characters are either common (and the game is dull) or legendary. *the game doesnt really get dull with a good DM* So what does this mean to a DnD tank? There is a theme to the three different types of tank. All of them are redirecting large amounts of damage that would be delt to the rest of the party to themselves, and surviving it. Note that this does not make them a meat-shield; tanks actually fight! This does not really solve the problem of "who's the tank?" though. Theoretically, any class could achieve one of these three things. A wizard can give themselves more damage reduction and AC than a warrior can, if they spend the spell slots. At the end of the day, though, whichever character can best perform those three duties within the party is probably the best suited to be the party tank. **Not True, many parties rely on three-six encounters, many wizards can tank that** -Fighter classes usually attain extremely high AC and hitpoints, making them effective tanks. Some even manage to get damage reduction - a fighter with all three of these is a fearsome foe indeed. The problem comes from magic... best hope that high hitpoints and good saves (somehow) can make it through. They are the most effective where magic fails. ***I for the life of me never see non gish fighters with high ac and hp, for the most part unless they have a ton of magic items/group members buffing them/prestige class/multiclass, they cannot obtain any of that** -Rogues can get very high AC with Dexterity bonuses out the wazoo. Just don't let them take a hit - they tend to fold like wet paper cloths when the damage comes around. **rogues cant get a very high ac with dexterity alone, a dex of 38, would only give a rogue a ac of 24, if you consider that high you're nuts** -Clerics and Druids are scary. They can do all three tank types I listed with disturbing regularity. Unless it is a dedicated healer/caster type, there is a good chance they can outclass all but the best-built fighter. Even more irritating, they don't have many weaknesses as a tank. The worst you can do is hit their low Fort saves, and hope that whatever you do to them sticks. Dispel and antimagic are good, too. **Clerics and druids have low fort saves??? are you on weed or something? Antimagic field is generally good against any spellcaster, dont see what you're proving with this, antimagic field is never a good argument** -Wizards, Sorcerers, Psions, and the like are usualy lacking in hitpoints, but have the most ways to shrug off damage and gain AC through spells like displacement, invisibility, etc. They also enjoy polymorph. However, one dispel can end their fun, and one hit can send them packing. **one dispel can end anybody's fun, but how many monsters spend actions polymorphing, normally theyre dead in two-six rounds, more like ten hits send them packing** In all honesty, I prefer fighters to do the tanking. I feel that their damage output is more consistant in melee, and generally higher than other classes (4+ attacks + high AB = crazy damage). Then again, I have seen every class tank. I guess the choice is really based on the situation at hand. Probably rambling pointlessly now, so I'm off.
trance_fu 07-12-04, 01:10 AM	...in my opinion, a tank is the first "prepared" character that goes through "the front door" into any potentially violent situation, presenting herself as the immediate threat and tries to survive whatever the DM throws at her long enough to allow her to see her companions through safely so they can join in more tactically. a "prepared" character is the player that acknowledges that there is probably fighting just around the corner, and in case there are foes, she has a tactical idea of what to do, or list of party approved spells/techniques to use, or previous experience to lean on, upon entering said violent situation. she is the party tactic that is used to help control a situation and make the odds more favourable for the party's survival in what could otherwise be a big charlie-fox (insert DM chortling here.) the tank is usually decided by the party members and is dependant upon current character status; hit points, armour class, character location/initiative, and other annoying details. who's seriously hurt? who has the toughest armour class? who lost their +x holy longsword? who is still poisoned? these questions will all factor on who will be the "tank" in the next melee. tanks are used to divert the DM's roleplaying attentions in the early rounds of melee; everything else is secondary, even damage dealing. while this generally equates to "biggest hitpoints, baddest armour class," or "who's the biggest threat?" there are other good techniques at getting your DMs attention. this "first person through the door" is usually targeted by the opening missile fire/trap/club on the head/spell, and so in the end, the successful tank is the one that has wits and a good mix of the aforementioned to survive the first couple of rounds, to get her companions through that front door, tying up the DM's minions long enough for the rest of the party to assess the situation and then help wreck shop. tanks cannot be utilized properly if they cannot pick their fights (ex: the party is ambushed), because at that point, they're just another character waiting for initiative. once the whole party's engaged, then the tank is just as likely to get the loving attention from the DM as anybody else is. hopefully, by then it will be too late. traditionally in v1.0 and v2.0 tanks were fighter types, but as mentioned in these various previous posts, in v3.0+ any properly buffed or prepped character can be the "tank," given the right combination or circumstance. EVERYBODY is entitled to their own opinion of course. it's just i think that doing the most damage or having the best armour class or most hitpoints or rudest polymorph isn't going to help you be the best "tank," if the DM decides to pick on the "non-tanks" instead! thanks for reading, fu!
Khazra Reborn 07-12-04, 07:19 AM	Am i the only person on the boards who thinks a monk makes a good tank? In a high stat game there easily capable of a higher Ac then most other classes due to wis to AC, much better then full plate IMO. However, to be perfectly honest, anyclass can tank with the right items feats. Highest AC= wizard19/bladesinger1 with monks belt and kun-fu genius feat. Int to Ac twice! Add on defensive spells & polymorph into firlborg & your looking nasty. Also you only need int. Highest damage= something with FB Most HP= Half celestial anthromorphic bat exmonk6/shiba protector1/dragon warrior10 Most damage resistant= dwarf fighter & a lot of roll with it. Ring of evasion etc. Hp my favourite for tank, i love charging through blade barriers!!
SoulLord 07-12-04, 11:51 AM	The problem with monks as tanks are many for starters low hp for a tank low bab for a tank also it needs high stats to be an efective monk wis (which is usually a dump stat for a tank) dex (but no armor which can reduce your ac for a tank) str con (must be high due to low hd) so while a fighter usually worries with 2 stats a monk must split his points between all of the rest. so i dont think they can replace the tank so eaily SoulLord
Thannin 07-12-04, 12:16 PM	Originally posted by Khazra Reborn Am i the only person on the boards who thinks a monk makes a good tank? In a high stat game there easily capable of a higher Ac then most other classes due to wis to AC, much better then full plate IMO. However, to be perfectly honest, anyclass can tank with the right items feats. Highest AC= wizard19/bladesinger1 with monks belt and kun-fu genius feat. Int to Ac twice! Add on defensive spells & polymorph into firlborg & your looking nasty. Also you only need int. Highest damage= something with FB Most HP= Half celestial anthromorphic bat exmonk6/shiba protector1/dragon warrior10 Most damage resistant= dwarf fighter & a lot of roll with it. Ring of evasion etc. Hp my favourite for tank, i love charging through blade barriers!! I just gotta say, most hp would have to be the shambling mound..... hehehehehehe... And a cleric or druid can get a higher ac than a wizard any day. How are you getting int to ac twice? highest damage-hulking hurler :D just pokin some fun
Khazra Reborn 07-12-04, 12:50 PM	The problem with monks as tanks are many for starters low hp for a tank low bab for a tank also it needs high stats to be an efective monk wis (which is usually a dump stat for a tank) dex (but no armor which can reduce your ac for a tank) str con (must be high due to low hd) so while a fighter usually worries with 2 stats a monk must split his points between all of the rest. so i dont think they can replace the tank so eaily SoulLord As stated, with the right combo of feats, prcs it can tank. That build is all wisdom , no other stats needed (although extra con & wis wouldn't hurt) as it gets: wis to hit wis to damage wis un-named to AC wis as deflection to AC And now for the clincher for the role of tank: wis to HP over 10 levels (note that you still recieve con bonus aswell) With stats of say 18, 16,14,14,12,12 (pretty good but there what we play in our campaigns) in order of importance at 20th level with the appropriate gold (baring in mind that a monk doesn't need to spend money on weapons or armour): wis18+10 (race)+5 (levels)+ 11 (tome & periapt) = 44 con16+6 (magic item)+8 (rage) = 30 str14 +4 (magic item) +8 (rage) = 26 dex14 +4 (magic item) = 18 rest of stats....who cares, im a tank. Naked Ac = 49 AB= 40 (44 in rage) HD= 7D8 + 10D10 +170 (wis) + 102 (con) = 358 HP....426 in rage I can get magic vestments +5 permeantly cast on my clothes by my wizard buddy, i have enough money left to get myself a ring of shocking blows, a fanged ring,a monks belt, a +5 amulet of mighty fists & +8 bracers of armour. This has the following effects: AC=63 AB= 44 (48 in rage) Now, im pretty sure that sort of AC is un-atainable by fighers & barbarians. How are you getting int to ac twice? Once from bladesinger. second time, the monks belt gives monk Ac bonuses, kung-fu genius makes int the stat for monk abilities & ac so it gives you int to AC.
Thannin 07-12-04, 01:27 PM	What race is giving you +10 wis with NO LA/ECL?????!???? How are you raging? would you mind actually giving us your classes/levels instead of generalizing?can you add up your ac for us?. How is your AB so high?Again, what classes did you take?!?Wizards cant cast magic vestment.......Just trying to figure out where all the plus's come from. And those stats are way above high powered.Just from the stats you gave, thats a 38 point buy, not including your other stats.... Considering a high power campaign consists of 32 points, Id say your way overpowered... Its like the casting one offensive and one defensive spell, fine for a homegame, but generally not used everywhere else... Originally posted by Khazra Reborn As stated, with the right combo of feats, prcs it can tank. That build is all wisdom , no other stats needed (although extra con & wis wouldn't hurt) as it gets: wis to hit wis to damage wis un-named to AC wis as deflection to AC And now for the clincher for the role of tank: wis to HP over 10 levels (note that you still recieve con bonus aswell) With stats of say 18, 16,14,14,12,12 (pretty good but there what we play in our campaigns) in order of importance at 20th level with the appropriate gold (baring in mind that a monk doesn't need to spend money on weapons or armour): wis18+10 (race)+5 (levels)+ 11 (tome & periapt) = 44 con16+6 (magic item)+8 (rage) = 30 str14 +4 (magic item) +8 (rage) = 26 dex14 +4 (magic item) = 18 rest of stats....who cares, im a tank. Naked Ac = 49 AB= 40 (44 in rage) HD= 7D8 + 10D10 +170 (wis) + 102 (con) = 358 HP....426 in rage I can get magic vestments +5 permeantly cast on my clothes by my wizard buddy, i have enough money left to get myself a ring of shocking blows, a fanged ring,a monks belt, a +5 amulet of mighty fists & +8 bracers of armour. This has the following effects: AC=63 AB= 44 (48 in rage) Now, im pretty sure that sort of AC is un-atainable by fighers & barbarians. Once from bladesinger. second time, the monks belt gives monk Ac bonuses, kung-fu genius makes int the stat for monk abilities & ac so it gives you int to AC.
Tony Vargas 07-12-04, 01:39 PM	While the proliferation of non-core material doubtless creates many potential 'tank' builds cobbled together from various race/class/item/spell/whatever combos, the basic 'iconic' tank should probably be a core warrior-type. What you mean by 'tank' has something to do with it, though. I think of a 'tank' character as one that is extremely durrable, and able to anchor the combat. A more litteral tank - in the modern military sense - would actually be very mobile, with devestating damage capacity, but actually somewhat vulnerable. For the first, classic idea of a tank, the paladin has a lot of potential. Heavy armor & shield provide a high AC, divine grace improves saves. A very durrable character. Also in the running is the Fighter, also with heavy armor & shield, and plenty of feats to put towards things like expertise, iron will, etc... For the second, blitzkrieg style tank, Barbarian fits very well. Extra Movement, rage for enhanced damage. Heavily buffed casters can also work well as this sort of tank, since the role is basicly offensive and short-term.
CrimsonRyoko 07-12-04, 01:57 PM	Actually i think the "best" tank for Absorbing Hits and Having HP is prolly just a Cleric whom has the spell Heal. Boosting up your HP with as much as heal does in one round is going to allow a Cleric to outlive a Fighter or Barbarian any day. And with spells like Firestorm your going to be hurting people too. Now dont get me wrong, im not a big fan of the cleric, ive actually never played one - Have played Mystic and Favored Soul - but never base cleric. But i must say the ability to recover from wounds that fast and efficiently has to put them in the top 3 for "Tank" if not #1.
amalcon 07-12-04, 04:25 PM	Best at absorbing hits at high levels is definitely the shapechanging (animal domain) cleric. DR 15/good, evil, and silver for turning into a pit fiend and casting righteous might, plus regeneration, plus the best AC around, plus self-healing. I personally prefer the Druid as a tank, however, especially if there's a cleric in the party. The Druid gets another tank in its animal companion.
RaKhan 07-12-04, 07:44 PM	I guess not many of you have even thought about having your epic level Barbarian or Fighter take the Legendary Dreadnought epic PrC. That's too bad, because you can take that class ad infinitum and get a lot from it. Considering that we have core classes that can have either d4, d6, d8, d10, or d10 hit die, a d8 is not low for hit dice. It is average for hit dice. Considering how a monk can easily have a significantly higher AC than a fighter, losing a little in HD is not that bad of a tradeoff, and a monk could certainly tank for a bit even and especially in epic levels.
Thannin 07-12-04, 08:00 PM	Originally posted by RaKhan I guess not many of you have even thought about having your epic level Barbarian or Fighter take the Legendary Dreadnought epic PrC. That's too bad, because you can take that class ad infinitum and get a lot from it. Considering that we have core classes that can have either d4, d6, d8, d10, or d10 hit die, a d8 is not low for hit dice. It is average for hit dice. Considering how a monk can easily have a significantly higher AC than a fighter, losing a little in HD is not that bad of a tradeoff, and a monk could certainly tank for a bit even and especially in epic levels. Well consider this also, when you're talking epic, you're talking builds like druid 20/cleric 20/shifter 10/monk 20/barbarian 20/runescarred beserker 10/frienzied berserker 10...even if legendary dreadnought is badass, shifter is almost crucial to any epic level build, and definitely offers more paths than legendary dreadnought.You can get a lot out of any class epic level.. using 3/4ths hp d4-3 d6-5 d8-6 d10-7 d12-9 yea, you're right, monk has average hp compared to a fighter. But a monk requires MAD, wheras a wizard or sorc only needs one good stat.Monks with good str,dex,con,and wis are rare indeed. Also, against one foe a monk is good, but grappling oozes, animals, dragons, and any other large creature or larger is a bad idea. Against multiple opponents a monk cant consider grappling. So the grappler isnt a good idea. How about stunning everything.2/3rds of creatures are unstunnable at higher levels and those that are generally can save versus that stun DC.How about those creatures with crazy DR at higher levels, will you bust out your quarterstaff with all those special materials and do less damage than that specialized spike chain fighter? Do you really think your dex and wis bonus to ac at higher levels will be good enough? AC-10 base+14 wis(highest ive seen)+14 dex+5(monk levels)=43.... at level 20 you will get pwned. Assuming a high dex/wis, good items, and other spells, you might be able to pull off a high ac, yet you still lack the problem of damage output. Throw a tarrasque at a monk versus a well built caster gish and see who lasts longer, the answer isnt the monk. As for monk speed, almost any character can achieve a speed of 90 without blinking an eye or can fly...