Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mattmurdock 07-21-04, 05:50 PM	Apologies if builds like this have been done to death, just wanted to put this one out there for your views: Feint Master build Using Core books, Complete Warrior and Magic of Faerun 11th level Rogue/4th level Swashbuckler/5th level Invisible Blade Human (20th ECL) 32 point build Strength 14 (10 base +4 item) Dexterity 30 (16 base +4 level add +4 Inherent +6 item) Constitution 16 (15 base +1 level add) Intelligence 20 (12 base +2 Inherent +6 item) Wisdom 10 (10 base) Charisma 18 (14 base +4 item) Items: total cost 759,866gp Tome of Clear Thought +2, Manual of Quickness of Action +4, Gloves of Dexterity +6, Belt of Giant's Strength +4, Cloak of Charisma +4 and Bluffing +10, Bracers of Blinding Strike [MoF], Headband of Intellect +6, 2 x Kukri +5 of Wounding, Ring of Protection +5, Amulet of Natural Armour +5, Ring of Resistance +5, Buckler +5, Vest of Insight +3 [saves] Other Stats Hit Points 6 +10d6 + 3d10 + 5d6 + 1d10 + 60 = average of 141 HP BAB +17/+12/+7/+2 Saves – Fort +19, Reflex +32, Will +15 Movement 30ft Initiative +14 (+10 Dex, +4 Imp. Init from Bracers) AC 47 (+6 Bracers, +10 Dex, +5 Unfettered Defence, +5 Ring, +5 Amulet, +6 Buckler) Abilities: Rogue Sneak Attack +6d6 Dagger Sneak Attack +3d6 Evasion Improved Uncanny Dodge Trapfinding Trap Sense +3 Crippling Strike Grace +1 Insightful Strike Unfettered Defence Bleeding Wound Feint Mastery Uncanny Feint (free action) Feats: Iron Will, Weapon Finesse, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (Kukri), Far Shot, Skill Focus (Bluff), Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Buckler Defence Skills: Bluff +40 (23 ranks, +4 Charisma, +3 Skill Focus, +10 Item) (and can always take 10, so Bluff check of +50 every time) Sense Motive +23 (23 ranks) (total +40 to resist Feints with BAB) Skill points depend on when you get the Tome, but even without it you are looking at 40 + 100 + 30 + 24 = 194 skill points or an average of nearly 10 a level Combat: Full attack action with free action feint before each attack (extra attack due to bracers) 2 +5 Kukri of Wounding used with Improved Two Weapon Fighting Attack +31/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+16 (critical on a 18-20 x2) Damage per attack (assuming Sneak Attack is successful) 1d4+12+9d6+2 Strength damage+1 Con damage for main hand 5 attacks 1d4+11+9d6+2 Strength damage+1 Con damage for off hand 2 attacks If all attacks are successful (even with no criticals) total damage is: 7d4 + 82 + 63d6 + 14 Strength damage +7 Con damage, or an average of: 320 damage + 14 Strength Damage + 7 Con Damage in one full attack action Progression is: 1st ¦ Rog ¦ PBS, Iron Will ¦ SA +1d6,Trapfinding 2nd ¦ Rog ¦ Evasion 3rd ¦ Swa ¦ Far Shot ¦ Weapon Finesse 4th ¦ Swa ¦ Grace +1 5th ¦ Swa ¦ Insightful Strike 6th ¦ Rogue ¦ WF (Kukri) ¦ SA +2d6, Trap Sense +1 7th ¦ IB ¦ DSA +1d6, Unfettered Defence 8th ¦ IB ¦ Bleeding Wound 9th ¦ IB ¦ TWF ¦ DSA +2d6, Uncanny Feint (move action) 10th ¦ IB ¦ Feint Mastery 11th ¦ IB ¦ DSA +3d6, Uncanny Feint (free action) 12th ¦ Rog ¦ ITWF ¦ Uncanny Dodge 13th ¦ Rog ¦ SA +3d6 14th ¦ Rog ¦ Trap Sense +2 15th ¦ Rog ¦ IBD ¦ SA +4d6 16th ¦ Rog ¦ Improved Uncanny Dodge 17th ¦ Rog ¦ SA +5d6, Trap Sense +3 18th ¦ Rog ¦ Skill Focus (Bluff) ¦ Crippling Strike 19th ¦ Rog ¦ SA +6d6 20th ¦ Swa ¦ Main problem I can see is low Fort and Will saves – anyone got any ideas on how to buff those without losing the major Bluff bonuses or combat ability? Added a Ring of Resistance and a Vest of +3 Insight bonus to Saves to buff Fort and Will save Also this build is pretty useless against creatures immune to critical hits, as it loses all the Sneak Attack and Ability damage. But put it up against anything subject to critical hits and ouch!! [Initial edits]edited to replace Fighter with Swashbuckler, levels rejigged to ensure qualification for IB, race changed to Human, items changed around based on feedback[edit]
cryptictravler 07-21-04, 07:34 PM	It has been done many times..and most often better. Things to consider are dumping the fighter levels and hitting up monk for a way better AC. Or using swashbuckler levels in lieu of fighter. The two work together really well with the Kung-Fu genius feat if you can take it. Human Swashbuckler 3/ Monk 2 / Rogue 5 / IB 5 / sneak attack granting PrC You actually gain 1d6 sneak attack, int to damage, flurry, better saves, in to AC again You lose 3 feats..which considering you get finesse for free and took specialization which does less damage than int to damage doesn't hurt much. Also...rethink your items...stat boost aren't as good as many of the things you could have got, like armor enchantments and the like.
mattmurdock 07-22-04, 05:53 AM	Thanks Cryptictravler, I've changed the 4 fighter levels into 3 swashbuckler and an additional Rogue level, giving much better damage potential due to Insightful Strike and the extra 1d6 Sneak Attack damage. However, as this build is a Bluff-monkey I am reluctant to switch to Human due to the overall +1 a Tiefling gets to Bluff (as well as Dex and Int bonuses helping AC and Attack), also I am reluctant to take levels in Monk as I was aiming both for Crippling Strike (potential 14 reduction in opponents Strength in one round is pretty useful I feel, particularly given the comparatively low HP of this build), maximum Sneak Attack damage dice and to avoid an Xp penalty for this build (adding 2 levels of Monk to avoid the penalty would remove Crippling Strike and 1d6 SA damage, for the addition of a couple of points on Fort and Will saves and no AC bonus unless I up the Wisdom...either that or they replace the Swashbuckler levels which drops off Insightful Strike and some BAB). Also the build is not designed to wear armour, so swopping out Items for Armour Enhancements won't help...however I have altered the Tome to +2, increased the Headband to +6 (net result is same Int bonus) and then added a Amulet of Natural Armour +4 as Natural Armour is the only armour type I haven't buffed. BTW...which book is Kung Fu Genius in...if that provides major bonuses to AC and saves I may reconsider... Thanks for your feedback.
carnivore 07-22-04, 06:56 AM	i would suggest : Human Swashbuckler 3/ Monk 2 / Rogue 4 / IB 5 /Tatoo monk 1 there is 1 tatoo that makes him immune to detect thoughts,know align,...and +10 bluff. in addition it improves all saves. next get a Choker of elequence(greater)6000gp +10 diplomacy / innuendo / BLUFF / perform(vocal only) also feat "nymphs kiss" at first level , it gives extra skill points and +2 on all Cha checks and from mini handbook "belt of magnificense"200000gp IT GIVES +6 TO ALL ATTRIBUTES AT THE SAME TIME.
mattmurdock 07-22-04, 07:22 AM	Thanks for your feedback Carnivore...could you let me know where the Choker of Eloquence and the feat Nymph's Kiss are from, as I don't think they are in any of the books I own (I also don't have access to the Mini Handbook so I wasn't aware of the 'Belt of Magnificense'). I am still reluctant to lose the Rogue levels and switch to Monk/Tattooed Monk due to the loss of 'Crippling Strike' and the reduction in Sneak Attack damage, however I could probably juggle the feats to include Nymph's Kiss and juggle the items to include the Choker and the Belt - if I can get access to the books they are all in I will update the build. Thanks again.
carnivore 07-22-04, 08:00 AM	nymph kiss BoED , choker of elequence i dont remember(i dont have any books with me right now), i think one of the faerun books PGtF,RoF,UE,underdark
cryptictravler 07-22-04, 09:36 AM	I hate to say it but Kung-fu genius is in Dragon 310...but as a feat it shouldn't be as hard to get by a DM. Also, the chocker is great except, I don't believe that feinting is VOCAL ONLY.
cryptictravler 07-22-04, 09:38 AM	The tiefling +1 to bluff isn't so big as to make it worth a level in low level play..or a feat throught the whole build.
carnivore 07-22-04, 10:20 AM	the choker gave +10 to 4 seperate skills , bluff is seperate from perform(vocal). i would also suggest trying to get some PrC that gives "hide in plain sight" as that works great with a bluffer.
mattmurdock 07-22-04, 12:16 PM	Ok, I think you were right about Tiefling not being worth a level and a feat, so I have changed the race to Human, although it is a shame about losing the Darkvision (net result is that AC and BAB went up by one, HP increased considerably, Initiative bonus went up and Fort save increased, all for the loss of +1 to Bluff). Still unsure about the Choker and the Belt of Magnificence, I might have to pop to my FLGS and see if they have the Mini Handbook and the Forgotten Realms books so I can have a quick browse...:) I will update once I have had a look...
Caelic 07-22-04, 12:46 PM	Somehow, I just don't see Nymph's Kiss working for this character, seeing as you have to be Exalted to take it. "I'm a servant of goodness and decency who specializes in...uhm...lying to people really, really well and then stabbing them when they're not looking." Yeah, I SUPPOSE you could rationalize it, but it doesn't seem to fit with the feel of the character at all.
carnivore 07-22-04, 12:54 PM	i guess the rational would be not so much about lying but ,distracting someone or misdirecting their attention or line of thought so that what the bluffer says is "the truth", but is taken by the listener in an incorrect way.exa:"sure i said i would watch your stuff,...and i saw who took it, i never said anthing about stopping them from taking it." the motives and end result would have a bearing on the action taken.
SaintX 07-22-04, 12:55 PM	i had a similar build, however i cant remember where i posted it. if you want a bluff monkey... tatooed monk is the way to go. human rogue5 IB5 monk1 tatooed monk1 X8. my original idea was to take assassin levels the rest of the way up. however, that wouldnt grat a +16 BAB before level 20. so i swapped for rogue 8/ master thrower 5. with thoughts towards a single level of sorcerer to gain a familiar that grants +3 bluff, and a single level of psion to gain a psicrystal for another 3 bluff. unfortunately, it turned out to be an indead heavy campaign, and my sneak attacks were of little use. at that point i was scrambling to get into the skullclan hunter PrC. but i wasnt good. then i thought about trying to bluff a deity into thinking i was good, and that i worshipped him. i think heironeous was the most likely canidate, having a sense motive equal to what my bluff would have been in three levels. but then deities always take 20... when i played him at level 12, i had 4 magic items 2 deadly precision daggars +1. belt of magnificence +2 bracers of armor +5 i nearly one-rounded an ettin, then took out his buddy by the third round while the rest of the party took care of the other two who showed up behind us.
mattmurdock 07-22-04, 02:39 PM	Yeah, Tattooed Monk would be good, but I would have to drop a level of something else to get the level of Monk I would need to qualify (or change a lot of my feats) - and after all, who really needs a Bluff check of more than +50 :D Even a 20th level Fighter is going to need to max out in Sense Motive in order to have to roll a 20 to prevent the Bluff (BAB of +20, 11 ranks Sense Motive, 20 on the roll makes 51). Obviously that assumes he hasn't got a Wis bonus or any feats or items to increase Sense Motive, but how many characters are likely to sacrifice other things in order to get to that level of skill in stopping feints. And I just love the Crippling Strike ability - all you need to do is go first and hit with the first 3 or 4 attacks and any melee response is going to be nerfed by about 3 or 4 points to attack and damage (maybe more if they are using 2-handed weapons) - and all that heavy equipment may suddenly be too much for them...:) Caelic - you've got a good point about Nymph's Kiss, so I decided not to include it in the build.
cryptictravler 07-22-04, 03:39 PM	The two weapon defense line of feats suck hard compared to Improved Buckler defense. Unless you are going Monk..which you aren't the drop two weapon defense and take IBD. Also inherent bonuses to charisma is a really expensive way to get skill bonuses. You use a 15 base ability score and over 100,000 gp for +4 to bluff. Also a +2 to bluff is a really expensive use of a feat. The DMG has rules for bonuses to skill items. You have +6 to a skill for 100,000 gp, a feats, and your second best ability score. Keep all of you feats except persuade. Lose the fighter level. You know have all of the good feats you chose, and switch cha and wisdom. That nets you 9 AC for one lost BAB, and a feat you can bear to lose. Or do the same with kung-fu genius except make your int 28 (from cha), your str 20 (from int) and cha 12 (from str) that nets you 9 AC, 8 damage per strike, one lost crappy feat, and one bab Then spend that money on an item that boosts bluff directly which should cost 100x skill bonus squared or 3600 gp for the +6 you lose. All that said..your current build has an XP penalty. 1 fighter, 11 rogue, 3 swashbuckler.
mattmurdock 07-23-04, 08:11 AM	OK, sorry to bump this up again but I think it is now as finished as it will ever be... I noticed I has mis-calculated the BAB so I have corrected that, also based on all the useful feedback I have dropped the Charisma and upped Dex and Con and added more useful items...including the wounding property to the weapons to add yet more ability damage :D :D :D Net result is a better AC, better saves and the same ability to Bluff. As I have no interest in going into the Exalted or Monk routes I think I have done all I can to this build. All he needs to do is go first and pretty much any target that is susceptable to Critical Hits is lunched. Even if they survive the av 320 damage from the first round of attacks they will be down 14 points of Strength and 7 points of Con (so more HP lost and reduction to damage and/or attack bonuses). Now I need to have a nice word with my DM...:)
Nazzareth 07-23-04, 09:26 AM	Oriental Adventures with the Rokugan Campaign setting source book allows for some massive combat feinting characters. OA samurai 10\ Ronin 10 (Complete Warrior) with the following Rokugan feats the Way of the Scorpion, Pincers and Tail, The Pincers Hold The Tail Strikes, Versatile (bluff) and Bayushi's Technique(x5) feats. Has a full base attack and can dish out 9d6 sneak attack, feint as a move action, and if the feint attack hits it is automaticlly a critical threat. Bayushi's Technique, gives +d6 sneak attack (+5d6 max) Pincers and Tail = improved feint The Pincers Hold The Tail Strikes, critical threats on feint attacks. The Power Critical feat from the complete warrior goes well with the "The Pincers Hold The Tail Strikes" feat. Other classes to add Iaijutsu Master, for the one strike two cuts ability. Combine with expert tactiction and improved feint for one feint attack plus two bonus attacks each round (All three attacks at full BAB). Exotic Weapon master, for Uncanny Blow. x2 str damage for using a katana two handed. Weapon master, for increased multiplier. Use with the "The Pincers Hold The Tail Strikes" feat massive damage on feints. Hida Defender, for critical focus adds +1 to crit multiplier again use with the "The Pincers Hold The Tail Strikes" feat.
mattmurdock 07-23-04, 09:49 AM	Good points Nazzareth, but I wanted to restrict the build to the Core books, Complete Warrior and Forgotten Realms, so I purposefully ignored the OA/Rogukan stuff. Just out of interest, could you alter that build to include the 5 levels of Invisible Blade instead of 5 levels of Ronin, to get the Feint as a free action ability, and still qualify for the feats...if so that would be a vicious combo as you could have a SA on every attack and critical threats on every attack, which could ramp the average damage up. Only problem is you lose all the lovely Strength ability damage...I still think this is a killer against combat tanks that are relying on high strength bonuses for attack and damage. And imagine the 'Hulking Hurler' build lifting up his lovely multi-ton lead ball and then suddenly finding he hasn't got the Strength to carry it any more...can you say 'squelch'...:D :D
Nazzareth 07-23-04, 08:04 PM	I think that even though the invisible blade gives you the ability to feint as a free action I thought that you could only use it once a round? Are you sure on this other wise it is very powerfull. If you can do multiple feints in the round with the invisible blade the following build would be great. Its a realms build to. monk 6, invisible blade 5, shou disciple 5, rogue 4 or master of the south wind 4 (optional from dragon). Would make a great combo. You could combine TWF with a flurry for a sh*t load of feint attacks each round (you could flurry as 11th level monk) on hand 15, 15, 15, 10, 5, 0 and 15, 10, 5. Or you could forget the TWF and flurry attack at 17, 17, 17, 12, 7, 2. If you go with the master of the south wind build you will need to take the bluff skill some how. If you are in the realms the cosmoplitan feat can give you bluff. If you are not in the realms and using OA and Rokugan and need to get the bluff skill you could do the following, if you are using OA races Human scorpion clan gets bluff as a class skill for all classes. You could take the OA versitile feat it gives you two skills as class skills go for bluff (of course) and Iaijutsu focus skill. This build works work well with OA and Rokugan feats If you can use You could do 10d6 (with bayushi'sx5) sneak attack on a feint attack. Take "twist the knife" (Way of the ninja) to increase dagger damage to d6 and to decrease you threat range by one works with improved crit. I have not worked out if this build is possible due to the number of feats needed. as and after thought The Pincers Hold The Tail Strikes would go well with a pick or mecurial weapon.