Building a 23rd Level Wizard, Need help. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building a 23rd Level Wizard, Need help. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Taladel
07-21-06, 02:02 AM The DM I play with is killer, and he's got us in an Epic campaign. I want to build a Wizard who doesn't focus on massive damage and big flashy spells.

However, I'm not the best optimizer. I can take a built character and give him a killer backstory, but the building, while not being beyond me, is not my forte.

I suppose I'll start from the beginning. If you see anywhere I should change my process, by all means let me know. I need all the help I can get to optimize a character.

I will go in the same order that the appendix of the PHB2 does.

NOTE: Don't feel like you have to guide me by the hand. For the most part, just general tips and all-around good advice for the sections I need help with will benefit me more than just leading me by the nose.

Class is Wizard.

The ability scores I rolled (4d6 DTL; reroll ones) are as follows: 10, 17, 16, 15, 16, 14.

I will assign them as such:

STR: 10
DEX:16
CON:18
INT:20
WIS:15
CHA:14

These scores reflect 5 Ability Score Boosts (3 to INT, 2 to CON)

Race should probably be human, because of the bonus feat and extra skill points. If I should apply any templates here, let me know. My DM has houseruled (for no apparent reason) that any template that doesn't add Racial HD doesn't affect character level (for instance, applying the Half-Dragon template doesn't take 3 levels off of your class level), and I think that's something that should be taken advantage of.

Skills

Level 1: 24
Level 2: 6
Level 3: 6
Level 4: 7
Levels 5-7: 7*3=21
Levels 8-11: 7*4=28
Levels 12-23: 8*12=96
TOTAL SKILL POINTS=188

Concentration = 26 ranks
Craft (?) = 26 ranks
Diplomacy = 3 ranks (Cross-Class)
Decipher Script = 26 ranks
Knowledge (Arcana) = 26 ranks
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) = 26 ranks
Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) = 26 ranks
Profession (?)
Spellcraft = 26 ranks

Feats is where I get stuck. I'm considering taking the 'Controller' feat list on p.214 of the PHB2, but I'm not sure if it's exactly what I need. What I need are feats that allow me to affect enemies (most likely with class levels, maybe more than I have) that have high saves and spell resistance. The spell penetration tree is a must, and any feats that boost my caster level, but beyond that I'm lost.

Equipment

The DM has us buy equipment from the NPC Wealth Chart. I'm not sure what it is for 23rd level because I don't have a copy of the ELH with me.

Because of random rolls on the Epic Wondrous Items Table, my Wizard ended up with Bracers of Relentless Might and an Item of Epic Armor +13 (don't remember where it went, but it's not bracers, as far as I can remember). I am of the opinion that I am better off selling the Bracers (which provide +12 STR and +12 CON, but are worth several million GP, which can be put to use creating my own magical items).

Other than that, I'm not really sure what to put here. I'm building basically a general in an army, but I don't know what kind of stuff he'd have with him. Anything that boosts my intelligence modifier and my AC are shoe-ins, but beyond that I'm kinda clueless.

Spells I can figure out for the most part on my own, but I would appreciate greatly any help with finding spells that can trip up, for instance, a party of adventurers of...say, 25th level.

Alignment is CE, if that has any bearing on spell selection or somesuch.

Thanks in advance for the help.

EDIT: One more thing I forgot. My DM has this love for his two drow NPCs, a 25th level two-bladed sword Fighter and a 25th level Evocating Sorceress. They're probably cheated a little bit, because they're the DM's favorite characters. They travel with the party I'm trying to take down, and they could potentially be a big problem. Their alignments are LE.

The characters in the party I'm trying to take down include the two drow mentioned above, a 25th level Demilich of unknown class, a 25th level Ninja/Ghost Faced Killer, a 25th level Monk/Druid/MOMF, and a 25th level Shadowcaster (Tome of Magic, don't know if they have PrCs or not). My character has a spy traveling with them (another character I've already rolled up), and transfers this information in my direction. I dunno if this helps or not, but I figured I'd put it in.
Furion Thamior
07-21-06, 02:23 AM Go wild with ECL. Make your character some sort of horrible half-dragon dracolich spellstitched whatever. If it gives you more stats and abilties, throw it on.
PhoenixInferno
07-21-06, 02:35 AM Race should probably be human, because of the bonus feat and extra skill points. If I should apply any templates here, let me know. My DM has houseruled (for no apparent reason) that any template that doesn't add Racial HD doesn't affect character level (for instance, applying the Half-Dragon template doesn't take 3 levels off of your class level), and I think that's something that should be taken advantage of. :eek:

Phrenic (Expanded Psionics Handbook) boosts your INT. Can't think of many other templates that do that. Otherwise, throw on as many as you can - Half-Celestial, Monster of Legend (Monster Manual II) - even the Paragon template (Epic Level Handbook)!
KieranBathgate
07-21-06, 02:45 AM I don't much to say to you except that you should focus on metamagic feats. Metamagic and a full caster progression is extremely powerful. Make sure you buy a lot of scrolls and scribe them in ahead of time.

Take a look at the "Initiate of the Sevenfold Viel" thread and definitely look into the prestige class. Kaleidoscopic Doom is a real boss killer, especially when you though Maximize Spell-Like Ability from Complete Arcane in their.

The archmage is good because you will have most of the dumb prerequisites from the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. You could also look into Incantatrix to get your money out of your metamagic feats.

I'm not sure what books your allowed and I don't know anything about epic levels so excuse me if I am mistaken anywhere.

Maybe take a look at: Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Archmage 1

EDIT: Definitely take advantage of the no LA thing. You could always try the lich just for flavour. The you could become a demi-lich! (ELH)
Manic Man
07-21-06, 02:48 AM Spells I can figure out for the most part on my own, but I would appreciate greatly any help with finding spells that can trip up, for instance, a party of adventurers of...say, 25th level.

Ice Assassin 9th level Frostburn. All you need is there. Make bunches of them. If one of them is a spellcaster, get his ice assassin to open with MDJ. Cast Timestop. Go wild with Delayed spells.

They are probably toast until they ressurect and come back. Then you're probably toast :P
Taladel
07-21-06, 02:50 AM As far as I know I'm allowed all WOTC books from 3.0 and 3.5.

About the template thing: I haven't spoken with my DM, but he might get a little antsy when I show him my Phrenic Vampiric Paragon Half-Fiend Human Wizard.

Manic Man: MDJ = Mordenkainen's Disjunction?
KieranBathgate
07-21-06, 02:54 AM I just looked at the demi-lich and it would be completely legal. It would give you +12 on all mental ability scores. This would be just plain old rude and the DM might make you change it. It also means that you can throw your 10 that you rolled into Con and now you have more strength.

The lich seems to fit your back story...powerful evil spellcaster that rules an army. Sounds good to me. :)
Manic Man
07-21-06, 02:56 AM Manic Man: MDJ = Mordenkainen's Disjunction?

Yes, kills their protective spells and probably quite a few of their devices, which makes their saves vs your spells harder than it should be in normal circumstances. Probably just deploy the ice assassins and let them rip :P
Taladel
07-21-06, 02:59 AM Funny you mention the Demi-Lich. One of the other players in the party (probably the most experienced out of all of us) is playing a Demi-Lich.

However, if I pile a lot of other templates onto it, I'm sure that my DM wouldn't allow it. Plus, he'll probably think that I'm stealing the idea from the other player.
Reis
07-21-06, 03:22 AM However, if I pile a lot of other templates onto it, I'm sure that my DM wouldn't allow it. Plus, he'll probably think that I'm stealing the idea from the other player.

it should show him what a retarded idea it is to allow addition of templates without raising ECL

if he can't see that, I would recommend finding a new DM, because yours has no concept of balance
Taladel
07-21-06, 03:45 AM How about this?

5 Levels Wizard (Filling out prerequisites)

Specialization: Abjuration
Prohibited Schools: Enchantment and Necromancy
No Familiar. Instead I take the Immediate Magic alternative in PHB2.

6 Levels Red Wizard

3rd Prohibited School: Transmutation

7 Levels Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil

5 Levels Archmage

High Arcanas taken:

Arcane Fire
Mastery of Counterspelling
Mastery of Elements
Spell-Like Ability (MDJ) Twice

Feats:

1st (Wizard): Scribe Scroll
1st (LD): Spell Focus (Abjuration)
1st (Human): Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration)
3rd (LD): Tattoo Focus (Abjuration) (DMG)
5th (Wizard): Quicken Spell
6th (LD): Spell Focus (Illusion)
9th (LD): Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
10th (Red Wizard): Craft Wand
12th (LD): Improved Counterspell
15th (LD): Ability Focus (Warding) (MM)
18th (LD): Maximise Spell-Like Ability (Warding)
21st (Epic): Improved Spell Capacity

Skills:TBD

EDIT NOTE:I give TREMENDOUS thanks to all who have posted in the topic. This optimizing stuff is pretty fun. I never really got into it before, being more of a storyteller, but these feats and skills and such tie in with a story so well, you can't help but optimize a character.
prototype00
07-21-06, 07:11 AM Several things, and I mean no criticism to your build in saying them.

1.) Red Wizard, this class is pretty bad from my reading of it in the DMG (No wonder they keep getting their robes handed to them by a bunch of new age- wicca enthusiast girls who like to play with masks). The only redeeming feature of it is the fact that with the leadership feat, you can boost the heck out of your CL by making your underlings give up spells (or apply metamagic feats to all your spells). However, you don't have leadership. Therefore, you have a class now with all the sacrifice required of an incantrix and none of the metamagic payback or circle magic goodness.

2.) Abjuration is a horrible class of spells to get +1DC to (almost no spells with saves, and I'm pretty sure no direct damage spells with saves), yet you have chosen to get tattoo magic in it... Not that you can't give the current Zulkir of abjuration a run for his money, but shouldn't there be something better to specialize in?

3.) Is there a reason you are taking craft wand? I'm just curious. Unless you're an artificer or an incantrix, wands aren't much for damage. If you're doing it for the utility spells, aren't they already on your spell list?

Of course there could be a story reason behind all these feat choices, which then renders my comments moot, but if there isn't... for 21 levels you can make a much better controller type character who turtles.

prototype00
grug
07-21-06, 08:20 AM I only have one thing to say.................A (Paragon) Black Ethergaunt from the Fiend Folio. And you will have a whole lot of fun. They were banned from our group because the distruction they can bring, in other words. tell you DM good luck making those saves. :evillaugh
PhoenixInferno
07-21-06, 12:48 PM Several things, and I mean no criticism to your build in saying them.
...
2.) Abjuration is a horrible class of spells to get +1DC to (almost no spells with saves, and I'm pretty sure no direct damage spells with saves), yet you have chosen to get tattoo magic in it... Not that you can't give the current Zulkir of abjuration a run for his money, but shouldn't there be something better to specialize in?
...
Why comment if you don't mean to criticize/critique?

But going for Red Wizard in Abjuration is silly.
LegacyOfTorment
07-21-06, 01:28 PM I have a level 25 wizard that i been playing and it has serve me quite well it dosent have any templates so u could improve on it and make it alot more powerfull well here is the link to the thread were i posted it http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=669168
alsow if u could plz give any opinions u think of it or changes u would recomend.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Taladel 07-21-06, 02:02 AM	The DM I play with is killer, and he's got us in an Epic campaign. I want to build a Wizard who doesn't focus on massive damage and big flashy spells. However, I'm not the best optimizer. I can take a built character and give him a killer backstory, but the building, while not being beyond me, is not my forte. I suppose I'll start from the beginning. If you see anywhere I should change my process, by all means let me know. I need all the help I can get to optimize a character. I will go in the same order that the appendix of the PHB2 does. NOTE: Don't feel like you have to guide me by the hand. For the most part, just general tips and all-around good advice for the sections I need help with will benefit me more than just leading me by the nose. Class is Wizard. The ability scores I rolled (4d6 DTL; reroll ones) are as follows: 10, 17, 16, 15, 16, 14. I will assign them as such: STR: 10 DEX:16 CON:18 INT:20 WIS:15 CHA:14 These scores reflect 5 Ability Score Boosts (3 to INT, 2 to CON) Race should probably be human, because of the bonus feat and extra skill points. If I should apply any templates here, let me know. My DM has houseruled (for no apparent reason) that any template that doesn't add Racial HD doesn't affect character level (for instance, applying the Half-Dragon template doesn't take 3 levels off of your class level), and I think that's something that should be taken advantage of. Skills Level 1: 24 Level 2: 6 Level 3: 6 Level 4: 7 Levels 5-7: 73=21 Levels 8-11: 74=28 Levels 12-23: 8*12=96 TOTAL SKILL POINTS=188 Concentration = 26 ranks Craft (?) = 26 ranks Diplomacy = 3 ranks (Cross-Class) Decipher Script = 26 ranks Knowledge (Arcana) = 26 ranks Knowledge (Dungeoneering) = 26 ranks Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) = 26 ranks Profession (?) Spellcraft = 26 ranks Feats is where I get stuck. I'm considering taking the 'Controller' feat list on p.214 of the PHB2, but I'm not sure if it's exactly what I need. What I need are feats that allow me to affect enemies (most likely with class levels, maybe more than I have) that have high saves and spell resistance. The spell penetration tree is a must, and any feats that boost my caster level, but beyond that I'm lost. Equipment The DM has us buy equipment from the NPC Wealth Chart. I'm not sure what it is for 23rd level because I don't have a copy of the ELH with me. Because of random rolls on the Epic Wondrous Items Table, my Wizard ended up with Bracers of Relentless Might and an Item of Epic Armor +13 (don't remember where it went, but it's not bracers, as far as I can remember). I am of the opinion that I am better off selling the Bracers (which provide +12 STR and +12 CON, but are worth several million GP, which can be put to use creating my own magical items). Other than that, I'm not really sure what to put here. I'm building basically a general in an army, but I don't know what kind of stuff he'd have with him. Anything that boosts my intelligence modifier and my AC are shoe-ins, but beyond that I'm kinda clueless. Spells I can figure out for the most part on my own, but I would appreciate greatly any help with finding spells that can trip up, for instance, a party of adventurers of...say, 25th level. Alignment is CE, if that has any bearing on spell selection or somesuch. Thanks in advance for the help. EDIT: One more thing I forgot. My DM has this love for his two drow NPCs, a 25th level two-bladed sword Fighter and a 25th level Evocating Sorceress. They're probably cheated a little bit, because they're the DM's favorite characters. They travel with the party I'm trying to take down, and they could potentially be a big problem. Their alignments are LE. The characters in the party I'm trying to take down include the two drow mentioned above, a 25th level Demilich of unknown class, a 25th level Ninja/Ghost Faced Killer, a 25th level Monk/Druid/MOMF, and a 25th level Shadowcaster (Tome of Magic, don't know if they have PrCs or not). My character has a spy traveling with them (another character I've already rolled up), and transfers this information in my direction. I dunno if this helps or not, but I figured I'd put it in.
Furion Thamior 07-21-06, 02:23 AM	Go wild with ECL. Make your character some sort of horrible half-dragon dracolich spellstitched whatever. If it gives you more stats and abilties, throw it on.
PhoenixInferno 07-21-06, 02:35 AM	Race should probably be human, because of the bonus feat and extra skill points. If I should apply any templates here, let me know. My DM has houseruled (for no apparent reason) that any template that doesn't add Racial HD doesn't affect character level (for instance, applying the Half-Dragon template doesn't take 3 levels off of your class level), and I think that's something that should be taken advantage of. :eek: Phrenic (Expanded Psionics Handbook) boosts your INT. Can't think of many other templates that do that. Otherwise, throw on as many as you can - Half-Celestial, Monster of Legend (Monster Manual II) - even the Paragon template (Epic Level Handbook)!
KieranBathgate 07-21-06, 02:45 AM	I don't much to say to you except that you should focus on metamagic feats. Metamagic and a full caster progression is extremely powerful. Make sure you buy a lot of scrolls and scribe them in ahead of time. Take a look at the "Initiate of the Sevenfold Viel" thread and definitely look into the prestige class. Kaleidoscopic Doom is a real boss killer, especially when you though Maximize Spell-Like Ability from Complete Arcane in their. The archmage is good because you will have most of the dumb prerequisites from the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. You could also look into Incantatrix to get your money out of your metamagic feats. I'm not sure what books your allowed and I don't know anything about epic levels so excuse me if I am mistaken anywhere. Maybe take a look at: Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Archmage 1 EDIT: Definitely take advantage of the no LA thing. You could always try the lich just for flavour. The you could become a demi-lich! (ELH)
Manic Man 07-21-06, 02:48 AM	Spells I can figure out for the most part on my own, but I would appreciate greatly any help with finding spells that can trip up, for instance, a party of adventurers of...say, 25th level. Ice Assassin 9th level Frostburn. All you need is there. Make bunches of them. If one of them is a spellcaster, get his ice assassin to open with MDJ. Cast Timestop. Go wild with Delayed spells. They are probably toast until they ressurect and come back. Then you're probably toast :P
Taladel 07-21-06, 02:50 AM	As far as I know I'm allowed all WOTC books from 3.0 and 3.5. About the template thing: I haven't spoken with my DM, but he might get a little antsy when I show him my Phrenic Vampiric Paragon Half-Fiend Human Wizard. Manic Man: MDJ = Mordenkainen's Disjunction?
KieranBathgate 07-21-06, 02:54 AM	I just looked at the demi-lich and it would be completely legal. It would give you +12 on all mental ability scores. This would be just plain old rude and the DM might make you change it. It also means that you can throw your 10 that you rolled into Con and now you have more strength. The lich seems to fit your back story...powerful evil spellcaster that rules an army. Sounds good to me. :)
Manic Man 07-21-06, 02:56 AM	Manic Man: MDJ = Mordenkainen's Disjunction? Yes, kills their protective spells and probably quite a few of their devices, which makes their saves vs your spells harder than it should be in normal circumstances. Probably just deploy the ice assassins and let them rip :P
Taladel 07-21-06, 02:59 AM	Funny you mention the Demi-Lich. One of the other players in the party (probably the most experienced out of all of us) is playing a Demi-Lich. However, if I pile a lot of other templates onto it, I'm sure that my DM wouldn't allow it. Plus, he'll probably think that I'm stealing the idea from the other player.
Reis 07-21-06, 03:22 AM	However, if I pile a lot of other templates onto it, I'm sure that my DM wouldn't allow it. Plus, he'll probably think that I'm stealing the idea from the other player. it should show him what a retarded idea it is to allow addition of templates without raising ECL if he can't see that, I would recommend finding a new DM, because yours has no concept of balance
Taladel 07-21-06, 03:45 AM	How about this? 5 Levels Wizard (Filling out prerequisites) Specialization: Abjuration Prohibited Schools: Enchantment and Necromancy No Familiar. Instead I take the Immediate Magic alternative in PHB2. 6 Levels Red Wizard 3rd Prohibited School: Transmutation 7 Levels Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 5 Levels Archmage High Arcanas taken: Arcane Fire Mastery of Counterspelling Mastery of Elements Spell-Like Ability (MDJ) Twice Feats: 1st (Wizard): Scribe Scroll 1st (LD): Spell Focus (Abjuration) 1st (Human): Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration) 3rd (LD): Tattoo Focus (Abjuration) (DMG) 5th (Wizard): Quicken Spell 6th (LD): Spell Focus (Illusion) 9th (LD): Skill Focus (Spellcraft) 10th (Red Wizard): Craft Wand 12th (LD): Improved Counterspell 15th (LD): Ability Focus (Warding) (MM) 18th (LD): Maximise Spell-Like Ability (Warding) 21st (Epic): Improved Spell Capacity Skills:TBD EDIT NOTE:I give TREMENDOUS thanks to all who have posted in the topic. This optimizing stuff is pretty fun. I never really got into it before, being more of a storyteller, but these feats and skills and such tie in with a story so well, you can't help but optimize a character.
prototype00 07-21-06, 07:11 AM	Several things, and I mean no criticism to your build in saying them. 1.) Red Wizard, this class is pretty bad from my reading of it in the DMG (No wonder they keep getting their robes handed to them by a bunch of new age- wicca enthusiast girls who like to play with masks). The only redeeming feature of it is the fact that with the leadership feat, you can boost the heck out of your CL by making your underlings give up spells (or apply metamagic feats to all your spells). However, you don't have leadership. Therefore, you have a class now with all the sacrifice required of an incantrix and none of the metamagic payback or circle magic goodness. 2.) Abjuration is a horrible class of spells to get +1DC to (almost no spells with saves, and I'm pretty sure no direct damage spells with saves), yet you have chosen to get tattoo magic in it... Not that you can't give the current Zulkir of abjuration a run for his money, but shouldn't there be something better to specialize in? 3.) Is there a reason you are taking craft wand? I'm just curious. Unless you're an artificer or an incantrix, wands aren't much for damage. If you're doing it for the utility spells, aren't they already on your spell list? Of course there could be a story reason behind all these feat choices, which then renders my comments moot, but if there isn't... for 21 levels you can make a much better controller type character who turtles. prototype00
grug 07-21-06, 08:20 AM	I only have one thing to say.................A (Paragon) Black Ethergaunt from the Fiend Folio. And you will have a whole lot of fun. They were banned from our group because the distruction they can bring, in other words. tell you DM good luck making those saves. :evillaugh
PhoenixInferno 07-21-06, 12:48 PM	Several things, and I mean no criticism to your build in saying them. ... 2.) Abjuration is a horrible class of spells to get +1DC to (almost no spells with saves, and I'm pretty sure no direct damage spells with saves), yet you have chosen to get tattoo magic in it... Not that you can't give the current Zulkir of abjuration a run for his money, but shouldn't there be something better to specialize in? ... Why comment if you don't mean to criticize/critique? But going for Red Wizard in Abjuration is silly.
LegacyOfTorment 07-21-06, 01:28 PM	I have a level 25 wizard that i been playing and it has serve me quite well it dosent have any templates so u could improve on it and make it alot more powerfull well here is the link to the thread were i posted it http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=669168 alsow if u could plz give any opinions u think of it or changes u would recomend.