Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Brat Prince 01-02-06, 08:39 PM	Okay then, the title pretty much says it all. My DM has come up with an Eberron-Set campaign in which I'm apparently playing a Bard. *Shrug* Attempting to make the best of a bad situation, (my Bards tend to end badly,) i figured i'd ask y'all for some advice as to how to make my Bard...well...good. Books I'm Allowed to Use: the Basics (PHB, DMG, MM) The Eberron Campaign Setting, Sharn: City of Towers, Five Nations, The Explorer's Handbook, The Complete Series, Tome and Blood, Song and Silence
Xeraph 01-02-06, 08:47 PM	Hold on, Bards are great, just you wait and see what these boards can dig up for ye. Are you allowed the Races series? If so, you must be a halfelf and take their substitution 1st level... Soothing Voice is so darn good. Heres a good start: Halfelf Savage Bard 7/ Witch Hunter (oriental adventures) 2/ Fighter 1/ Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane) 2/ Eldritch Knight 8 Bab +16 Cha to saves Room to take snowflake wardance (frostburn) lots of bardic music and so and so. But really, a bard can be anything! How would you like your character to be?
PonTelon 01-02-06, 08:48 PM	Check out the stickies for some Bard Handbooks. It's on the top of the forum. Other than that, you need to decide on what type of bard you want to be. Focus on melee? Focused on Spells? Focused on Songs? Focused on Skills? Well-rounded? Ect. What level?
MechaboyDos 01-02-06, 09:28 PM	A Bard 9/Fighter 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8 gives you base attack +16 and a small spattering of high level spells, makes for a good Gish build. Take Battle Caster from Complete Arcane and you can run around in Mithral Full Plate with no spell failure. If you fit a level of Sacred Exorcist in there then you'll have Turn Undead, which will let you take advantage of the Divine Feats for things like Cha to AC (Divine Shield) and Cha to damage (Divine Might), but that'll lower your base attack by a point and deny you that last attack per round.
rilem 01-02-06, 10:28 PM	A Bard 9/Fighter 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8 gives you base attack +16 and a small spattering of high level spells... I think the standard is to go Bard8 (so as not to lose another BAB) and then either fighter2 (for feats) or pal2 (for cha to saves). And since it's Eberron, you'd cap it with Knight Phantom instead of the usual Eldritch Knight. But otherwise, hell yes... With the books listed, the Original Poster can get almost every neat Bard trick around (misses Snowflake Wardance and the Half-Elf sub levels, but he still can rock.)
Aramas 01-02-06, 10:36 PM	Bard's do much better with archery than melee. Bards are capable of doing many different things. So you need to decide what sort of bard you want to be and then the CO board will optimize the bejezus out of it.
Llochlyn 01-02-06, 10:40 PM	Also, look up the bard entry in Eberron CS, there are alternate songs to pick
catharz 01-02-06, 10:46 PM	I think the standard is to go Bard8 (so as not to lose another BAB) and then either fighter2 (for feats) or pal2 (for cha to saves). And since it's Eberron, you'd cap it with Knight Phantom instead of the usual Eldritch Knight. But otherwise, hell yes... Actually, I think the standard is Bard 8/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 9/Sublime Chord 2. The actual progression is something like 1:Brd 1 2:Brd 1/Ftr 1 3:Brd 2/Ftr 1 8:Brd 7/Ftr 1 9:Brd 7/Ftr 1/EK 1 10:Brd 8/Ftr 1/EK 1 11:Brd 8/Ftr 1/EK 1/SC 1 12:Brd 8/Ftr 1/EK 1/SC 2 13:Brd 8/Ftr 1/EK 2/SC 2 Etc. Warchanters can also do great things in the right party.
ck2001wendt 01-02-06, 11:12 PM	Bard 3/Marshal 2 is a great base. +1 to all saves (for all party members) +Cha to all Dex based skills and checks (including Init) Song of the Heart (Eberron) gives you a +1 to all bard abilities Words of Creation (BoED) doubles all bard abilities Inspire Courage is now 2X+1 or 2 (X+1), depending on your DM. You can inspire courage +4 at 6th level for 3d4 subdual. Bard 8/Marshal 2/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8 BAB 16 9th level Arcane spells 9th level Bardic Music Feat Reqs: None
Kuroi Kenshi 01-03-06, 12:26 AM	Actually, I think the standard is Bard 8/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 9/Sublime Chord 2. Don't forget the free spellsword level you can throw in in exchange for an inferior EK level :o Also sacred exorcist4 in replacement for 4 EK levels will cost you 1 BAB, but it will up your HD a little and grant you a few nifty abilities, most notably turn undead for divine shield and/or divine might. One other feat to consider is lyric spell. It's like divine metamagic, except it's balanced due to having a level cap on how high you can crank your spells.
catharz 01-03-06, 01:05 AM	Bard 8/Marshal 2/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8 BAB 16 9th level Arcane spells 9th level Bardic Music Bard 7/Marshal 2/Eldritch Knight 9/Sublime Chord 2 BAB 16 9th level Arcane spells 8th level Bardic Music ->But you get your 9th level spells sooner! Good call on the Marshal and feats. Don't forget the free spellsword level you can throw in in exchange for an inferior EK level :o Also sacred exorcist4 in replacement for 4 EK levels will cost you 1 BAB, but it will up your HD a little and grant you a few nifty abilities, most notably turn undead for divine shield and/or divine might. That sounds wicked bad for a good PC.
Part-Human2 01-03-06, 01:15 AM	In regard to your title; "Building a Bard that Doesn't Suck" -- have you considered building a Bard that blows instead?
ck2001wendt 01-03-06, 01:38 AM	Bard 3/Marshal 2/Warchanter 10/X 1 (I like Fighter)/Holy Liberator 4 Atts: Int 14, Cha 15 BAB 17 or 18 13th Bardic Music Marshal abilities Cha to saves Immune to Charms and Compulsions Can remove Fatigue from Barb allies basically at Will D8 HP (a little over) Warchanter 10 lets your entire party use 1/1 BAB and gives them +20 Temp HP and Diehard when you Chant. If they're getting beat up, just Chant again. for that second build, you can go Archer and the only feat you waste is Combat Expertise. It's not a great combat build, but it definitely will make your teammates love you. The build looks like this: 1 Bard (Combat Expertise) (PB Shot) 2 Bard 3 Bard (Song of the Heart) 4 Marshal (SF: Diplomacy) boost Int 5 Marshal 6 Fighter (WF: Any Bow) (Words of Creation) 7-16 War Chanter (Rapid Shot) (Precise Shot) (Iron Will) 17-20 Holy Liberator (Free Feat)
Llochlyn 01-03-06, 01:57 AM	Did you know eberron allows you to replace inspire competence with song of the heart for free, saving you a feat ?
Slyver 01-03-06, 07:48 AM	Bards, when all there was was core, were suboptimal. They didnt suck, but they were MAD for a decent character. Now, with the various eberron and more importantly, Complete adventurer/arcane books available, you can make some of the best non-broken, but powerful (and versatile) characters possible with a bard base, specifically bard 8 base. Tell us what kind of character you want to play and we can amaze you with a bards potency: Archer, melee, healer, spellcaster, you name it, it can be built with a bard. I suggested some iconic bard builds for a full bard group that can be found here (post 50 with a follow up at 57): The band (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=549402&page=2&pp=30) These are just some ideas, anything can be made. Give us an idea on what style you want and we can make a kick ass, completely tailored bard. Slyver
Xeraph 01-03-06, 07:59 AM	How about Bard 7/ Witch Hunter 1/ Marshal 1/ Knight Phantom 9/ Sublime Chord 2 Kamis Grace Motivate Dexterity Phantom Knight Goodies Song of Arcane blah blah blah 10 levels of SC casting Bab +15 :( Hmn... Maybe Bard 7/ Paladin 2/ Knight Phantom 9/ Sublime Chord 2 Divine Grace Phantom Knight Goodies Song of Arcane blah blah blah 10 levels of SC casting Bab +16 :D
Dwyn_of_Sylenthia 01-03-06, 11:08 AM	Would taking the path of Fochlycan Lyricist be worthwhile?
calypso 01-03-06, 11:22 AM	These are just some ideas, anything can be made. Give us an idea on what style you want and we can make a kick ass, completely tailored bard. So, would it be rude of me to post my own request in Brat Prince's thread? :D I only ask because he hasn't given you guys anything to work with yet, and you all seem SO anxious to build a bard... Calypso
Mommy was an Orc 01-03-06, 11:23 AM	Doesn't work - Eldritch Knight can't advance a spellcasting class that hasn't been taken at the time you enter the PrC. They use 'prestige class' not 'prestige class level' Actually, I think the standard is Bard 8/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 9/Sublime Chord 2. Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8 is a very functional full blown caster/archer. Imbue Anti-Magic Fields at level 13 and fire 'em at BBEG Wizards...arcane archer provides the all martial weapons. Bard 8/Marshal 1/Virtuoso 10/Sublime Chord 2 does quite well as the Bardic Songmaster/Superface The major thing of course to do is actually ramp up Inspire Courage as much as possible - Inspirational Boost from Complete Adventurer, Song of the Heart from Eberron, Masterwork Stringed instruments(Lute, Mandolin) and a Perform skill that only requires voice. Just keep track of how many hits you cause and how much extra damage you did. You'll find you quickly are responsible for a majority of the party's weapon damage without realizing it. Haste is also extremely useful for this.
catharz 01-03-06, 01:57 PM	Doesn't work - Eldritch Knight can't advance a spellcasting class that hasn't been taken at the time you enter the PrC. They use 'prestige class' not 'prestige class level' Oh, that was just a typo, obviously. Later prestige classes like, Knight Phantom correct the mistake. In fact, I don't consider that to be text. Just go by the table which says "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class." But in all seriousness, I suppose the build (in the context of this post) should be ... Bard 8/Fighter 1/Knight Phantom 9/Sublime Chord 2, OR Bard 8/Fighter 1/Knight Phantom 10/Sublime Chord 1, OR Bard 7/Fighter 1/Knight Phantom 10/Sublime Chord 2, OR Bard 7/Fighter 2/Knight Phantom 10/Sublime Chord 1, OR Bard 7/Fighter 2/Knight Phantom 9/Sublime Chord 2, Or Whatever.
Drood 01-03-06, 02:01 PM	You have to take the Sublime Chord levels before the Knight Phantom or Eldritch Knight levels, but otherwise those are decent builds.
The Brat Prince 01-03-06, 02:22 PM	he, sorry about my lack of input in my own thread, but I posted prety much immediately before coming down with a NASTY 24 hour stomach flu thing. Failed my fort save you might say. I can't believe I just made that joke Anyhow, waht i'm going for is the whole "dashing swashbuckler" thing. Trying for a good balance between song, spellcasting, and melee and if alignment matters, i'm gonna rock the CG. Thanks for all your help so far!
catharz 01-03-06, 02:23 PM	You have to take the Sublime Chord levels before the Knight Phantom or Eldritch Knight levels, but otherwise those are decent builds. Ha ha, very funny.
calypso 01-03-06, 02:27 PM	Ha ha, very funny. Actually he was being serious. You keep listing your class progressions out of order, putting +spellcasting classes before the class that they're advancing. Calypso
catharz 01-03-06, 02:33 PM	Actually he was being serious. You keep listing your class progressions out of order, putting +spellcasting classes before the class that they're advancing. Calypso Well ya, that's so you don't loose any spellcasting. To be more clear, they're not listed out of order. They're listed by which classes are taken first. Look at my first example if you still don't get it.
PonTelon 01-03-06, 02:45 PM	he, sorry about my lack of input in my own thread, but I posted prety much immediately before coming down with a NASTY 24 hour stomach flu thing. Failed my fort save you might say. I can't believe I just made that joke Anyhow, waht i'm going for is the whole "dashing swashbuckler" thing. Trying for a good balance between song, spellcasting, and melee and if alignment matters, i'm gonna rock the CG. Thanks for all your help so far! Hmm, an interesting idea would be: Bard 7/Swashbuckler 3/Sublime Cord 2/Storm Singer(or any other +1 caster level and music class you want) 8. The basic math for a Sublime Cord is: Bard 7/XXX 3/Sublime Cord 1/YYY 9 XXX=Any class you feel like YYY=any +1 caster level class you feel like. As someone already said: Bard 7/Paladin 2/Phantom Knight 1/Sublime Cord 2/Phantom Knight 8 Though I might suggest going: Bard 6/Mind Bender 1 instead of Bard 7, since you aren't really going to lose out on much.
Sir Gummibaerchen 01-03-06, 02:45 PM	Oh, that was just a typo, obviously. Later prestige classes like, Knight Phantom correct the mistake. In fact, I don't consider that to be text. Just go by the table which says "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class." Oh come on you two, stop not considering something text if it doesn't say what you want.
pyro_cat 01-03-06, 03:12 PM	You said you wanted to be CG... If your DM allows it, use the Paladin of Freedom Variant from Unearthed Arcana. The whole thing is OGL, so you can find it on the internet, and it's hardly unbalanced. (I don't have a link, I'm sure someone around here does.) If taken for the sake of roleplaying, I doubt a DM would have a problem with it. Bard 7/Paladin of Freedom 2/Knight Phantom 7/Sublime Chord 2/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1 If you want to progress your song a bit further, nab Devoted Performer from Complete Adventurer. Play as a Human. In terms of feats, go the archery path, mounted if you have enough. You'll have decent BAB (+17, I believe), 9th level spells, 11th level music, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, and Divine Grace. Good saves, too. Your only problem that skills aren't great, but with your race as Human, you'll be able to qualify for everything. As for feats, I'd go something like this: Bard 1 (Dodge, Point Blank Shot) Bard 2 Bard 3 (Iron Will) Bard 4 Bard 5 Bard 6 (Still Spell) Bard 7 PoF 1 PoF 2 (Devoted Performer) KP 1 SC 1 SC 2 (Mounted Combat) KP 2 KP 3 KP 4 (Mounted Archery) KP 5 KP 6 KP 7 (Rapid Shot) Dragonslayer 1 Spellsword 1
BadCatMan 01-03-06, 09:24 PM	If you want to be a swashbuckling Bard, I suggest the Arcane Duelist: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a Two levels of that will let you add your Charisma to AC.
calypso 01-03-06, 10:01 PM	If you want to be a swashbuckling Bard, I suggest the Arcane Duelist: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a Two levels of that will let you add your Charisma to AC. That class is TERRIBLE! What were they thinking? An ostensibly melee-oriented class with half BAB? Let's review: An arcane-duelist class that does not continue casting, has a half BAB, vicious requirements, middling skill points and hit die, and decent special abilities. Yeesh. Calypso
catharz 01-04-06, 12:33 AM	That class is TERRIBLE! What were they thinking? An ostensibly melee-oriented class with half BAB? Let's review: An arcane-duelist class that does not continue casting, has a half BAB, vicious requirements, middling skill points and hit die, and decent special abilities. Yeesh. Calypso It has two really noce abilities. One: Cha to AC. Two (and the really good one) Dexterous attack. With a two-handed weapon you can PA up to BAB for free.
Slyver 01-04-06, 03:53 AM	Here is a build that doesn't exactly fulfill your desires, but it is very close. Alignment needs to be NG (and starts as LG until level 3), but man does this guy kick much bootie. monk is cobra strike monk from UA 1 Monk dodge, power attack, cleave 2 Monk mobility 3 Bard snowflake wardance (cha to hit) 4 Bard 5 Bard 6 Bard Ascetic mage (cha to ac) 7 Fighter Whirling steel strike 8 Spellsword 9 Arcane Duelist Elusive target 10 Arcane Deulist (cha to ac again) 11 soldier of light 12 soldier of light divine might (cha to saves, cha to damage) 13 Fochlucan lyrist 14 Fochlucan lyrist 15 Sublime chord arcane strike 16 Fochlucan lyrist 17 Fochlucan lyrist 18 Fochlucan lyrist Practiced spellcaster 19 Fochlucan lyrist 20 Fochlucan lyrist BAB 16 base saves fort 13 ref 15 (+evasion) will 19 He gets his charisma bonus to pretty much everything: Bonus spells, arcane spell DCs, AC (2x), to hit, damage and saves. He is mobile, can flurry with a longsword, can do massive damage to any creature type with his longsword, pretty much guaranteed to hit, casts 7th level arcane spells, 4th level divine spells, tons of skill points (and great skill lists), 11th level bardic music and 12th level bardic knowledge. The longsword is an unfortunately necessary weapon choice as both snowflake wardance and whirling steel strike require it. Your DM may let you use a rapier instead with both of those feats if he is nice. It is hardly unbalancing but may give you more of the flavor that you want. Other options with a more restrictive book list might be: Swashbuckler 1/Bard 8/Fighter 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch knight 8 or Rogue 2/Bard 7/cleric (or cloistered cleric, or druid) 1/sublime chord 1/fochulan lyrist 9 neither of which I really like very much despite both getting ninth level spells as the first only gets 9 levels of bardic music and the second only gets 15 BAB (although 16 levels of bardic music, would do great with song of the heart and words of creation feats). If you can't use the above build due to too restrictive book list or don't like the flavor let me know and I can come up with something else. Slyver
Drood 01-04-06, 10:09 AM	Here's the build I came up with. This is the character I'm going to be playing in a campaign that started just this last weekend. My particular party is short on strong melee characters so I went from wanting to be the face character and perhaps a mind controller to a melee fighting/spell hurling/song singing beast (I was one of two survivors in our second battle, and I was the only melee-capable one). Note my group uses a hybrid ruleset of 3.0 and 3.5, so ranger 1 is like the 3.0 ranger and bard is like 3.5 bard. Human 1 - Bard1 - Spellcasting Prodigy, Nymph's Kiss (BoED) 2 - Bard2 3 - Bard3 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (claw bracer) 4 - Bard4 5 - Ranger1 6 - Spellsword1 - Leadership 7 - Bard5 8 - Bard6 9 - Eldritch Knight1 - Weapon Focus (claw bracer), Weapon Specialization (claw bracer) 10 - Exotic Weapon Master (twin exotic weapon fighting) 11 - Sublime Chord 1 12 - Sublime Chord 2 - Improved Critical (claw bracer) 13 - Eldritch Knight2 14 - Eldritch Knight3 15 - Eldritch Knight4 - Spell Penetration 16 - Eldritch Knight5 17 - Eldritch Knight6 18 - Eldritch Knight7 - Greater Spell Penetration 19 - Eldritch Knight8 20 - Eldritch Knight9 BAB 17 Spells: 9th level(2), CL 17 Dual wields (automatically gets ambidexterity, twf and itwf from ranger) with no penalty (only -1 with twin exotic, +1 with focus) Can cast while wielding the bracers and cannot be disarmed. I believe he can also play an instrument while wearing them as well. Able to use inspire courage, inspire competence and the great Suggestion. Can use a shield with NO spell failure (from spellsword 1 10% ignore) if he chooses. Can use song of arcane (sublime chord 2) to improve DCs. I realize this won't work for most people (because of our particular rules), but I'm sure you could tweek it to meet your needs. I am very excited about this character.
sixstringbastard 01-04-06, 01:32 PM	I'm starting a new character this week to replace my long lost elven bard. The new character is half-fey(LA 2) 1 level barbarian 8 levels bard and I'd like to add Holy Liberator into the mix as a prestige class. I wanted to know if anyone has mixed Holy Liberator with a bard? Thanks!